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Rick Warren

After Death Memories

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Your thoughts please Forum Friends,

 

This is a question that arises from today's OPAD text. Specifically referring to this paragraph about what we Adjustered ones will remember after death, on Mansonia:

...Even with Adjuster-fusion candidates, only those human experiences which were of spiritual value are common possessions of the surviving mortal and the returning Adjuster and hence are immediately remembered subsequent to mortal survival. Concerning those happenings which were not of spiritual significance, even these Adjuster-fusers must depend upon the attribute of recognition-response in the surviving soul. And since any one event may have a spiritual connotation to one mortal but not to another, it becomes possible for a group of contemporary ascenders from the same planet to pool their store of Adjuster-remembered events and thus to reconstruct any experience which they had in common, and which was of spiritual value in the life of any one of them.... P.451 - §3

 

If I read this right, how much we remember about life on Urantia is determined by our experientially earned spiritual value. So, can we then assume Jesus forgot nothing since he was divine value personified, from being Adjustered to his end? And do 1st Circlers recall most of their value fraught lives?

 

I can't help but theorize the newly awakened soul will recall much of the previous life--if this soul has completed, or almost completed the Circles--if he or she has lived a life saturated with "spirit value". And what do those who fuse-off Urantia remember, those who "translate" straight to Mansonia? Indeed, there might not be much change to note at the death or translation of such advanced beings, eh? But for beings who have led lives of limited spirit significance, there is much need for retelling by angels of attendance, consulting the records, and group recall, according to the Mighty Messenger telling of these things in Section 9 of Paper 40.

 

TB&G, Rick

 

 

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I would think that first circlers would remember those spiritual decisions that got them to the first circle. They are not going to remember potty training, learning to ride a bike, doing homework or housework, grocery shopping, traffic jams or balancing the checkbook, unless at some point during one of those activities they engaged in a relationship with someone that resulted in a spiritually significant event that impacted them personally. Spiritually valuable memories are those involving relationships, both human and divine. That means that memories of fantastic sunsets, beautiful vistas, romantic symphonies and exquisite artwork will unlikely be part of the matrix unless they involve a spiritual awakening of a relationship with deity.

 

Even now, think back over your life on what you remember most and I guarantee that nearly all of your memorable moments have something to do with other persons. My most significant memory from childhood was the time that I realized that I was having a relationship with God. I was five and I went into my closet to talk to him and soak up his presence. It was a glorious event that I will never, ever forget; it was like being wrapped in angel's wings, and I vowed then, to never, ever stop talking to him. I also remember, when I was eight, the death of two of my girlfriends, one in a house fire, the other abducted during the night, slashed, raped and buried alive. I suddenly realized how precious life is and how dear friendships are. I made a decision then to always tell my friends how much I appreciate and enjoy them no matter how much they upset me. I remember at age 18 being disowned by my mother because I went to college, having all my belongings thrown out of the house, my bank account emptied and my dog put to sleep. I realized then that some people are not only ignorant, but mentally ill, and need a lot of prayer and love. I decided then not to take personally the evil actions of others directed at me. I'm inclined to think that it is memories like this that will survive in our active memory matrix, while other less significant ones will have to be reassembled.

 

I think the question here is really, "What is spirit value?"

 

p1219:7  111:4.1 Meanings and values are only perceived in the inner or
supermaterial
spheres of human experience.

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Rick, Bonita, and all,

 

I think Rick's theorizing here is right on.

 

"Since any one event may have a spiritual connotation to one mortal but not to another, it becomes possible for a group of contemporary ascenders from the same planet to pool their store of Adjuster-remembered events and thus to reconstruct any experience which they had in common, and which was of spiritual value in the life of any one of them." P.451 - §3

 

Add to this "All things become sacred (have a spiritual connotation) to those who are spirit-led."

 

I doubt Jesus would remember his potty-training or events that were purely scaffolding, but I can see him remembering a lot of seemingly mundane chores because he was always communing with God. He talked about God as an ever-present companion, which is also probably why he was so gifted at using ordinary human events in his parables. Prayer time in his household was a time for discussing anything related to the welfare of the family (p.1401). It seems like he was "fusing" the material with the spiritual all along.

 

Bonita asks a great question: "What is spirit value?"

 

The first thing that came to my mind was that which brings man closer to God and/or God closer to man.

 

Love to all,

 

Stacey

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This quote also sheds some light:

 

160.4.10 The career of a God-seeking man may prove to be a great success in the light of eternity, even though the whole temporal-life enterprise may appear as an overwhelming failure, provided each life failure yielded the culture of wisdom and spirit achievement. Do not make the mistake of confusing knowledge, culture, and wisdom.
They are related in life, but they represent vastly differing spirit values;
wisdom ever dominates
knowledge and always glorifies culture
.

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Add to this "All things become sacred (have a spiritual connotation) to those who are spirit-led."

 

I have another question. What is the correlation between sacredness and spiritual value? Even though all things are sacred to those who are spirit led, not all things deserve to be treated with a sense of sacredness. It seems as though there must be an element of wisdom involved, not only in making things sacred, but choosing what to make sacred.

 

p1732:4 155:6.11 All things are sacred in the lives of those who are spirit led; that is, subordinated to truth, ennobled by love, dominated by mercy, and restrained by fairness— justice.

 

p1727:5 155:3.5 One of the great lessons of this sojourn at Caesarea had to do with the origin of religious traditions, with the grave danger of allowing a sense of sacredness to become attached to nonsacred things, common ideas, or everyday events. From one conference they emerged with the teaching that true religion was man's heartfelt loyalty to his highest and truest convictions.

 

Another element to ponder concerning spirit value and memory is that not all of our spiritually significant memories are conscious. True goodness is unconscious; true soul growth is unconscious. Circle making decisions, however, are very often conscious even though the results of those decisions may take time to become an active part of the memory matrix, which is why so much is in safekeeping for us.

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p1732:4 155:6.11 All things are sacred in the lives of those who are spirit led; that is, subordinated to truth, ennobled by love, dominated by mercy, and restrained by fairness— justice.

 

I think in this quote the author is using this definition of sacred: "inviolable; not to be disrespected or attacked." This reminds of the spirit-led person described as: "He will not shout or raise his voice or make loud speeches in the streets. He will not break off a bent reed nor put out a flickering lamp."

 

p1727:5 155:3.5 One of the great lessons of this sojourn at Caesarea had to do with the origin of religious traditions, with the grave danger of allowing a sense of sacredness to become attached to nonsacred things, common ideas, or everyday events. From one conference they emerged with the teaching that true religion was man's heartfelt loyalty to his highest and truest convictions.

 

I think in this quote the author is using this definition of sacred: "worthy of worship."

 

I think a spirit-led person would see a cow and think that it is a creature possessing life and the first 5 adjutant mind spirits and would not want to harm it or treat it inhumanely. The danger would be if someone started to worship the cow.

 

Love to all,

 

Stacey

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Good and valid points Stacey.

 

p1732:4 155:6.11 All things are sacred in the lives of those who are spirit led; that is, subordinated to truth, ennobled by love, dominated by mercy, and restrained by fairness— justice.

 

My understanding of this quote is that a spirit led person is one who allows truth to direct his/her life and chooses to dignify love over evil while exercising self-control, which naturally leads to fair and merciful dealings with others. Those who are able to do this will understand their sacred duty to loving service in the kingdom of God.

 

It is the kingdom of God which makes all things sacred.

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I also remember suddenly gaining a new level of awareness at age 5. I was leaning up against a brick wall at school during recess. It was the first grade. I suddenly became aware of everything about myself so vividly. And I wondered what it could all mean. I hadn't been taught the concept of God yet as my mother was a hippie who didn't teach that kind of thing. My Dad was a UB reader, but I didn't live with him until I was 11. My parents divorced when I was 3. So I didn't know God at age 5. But I felt deeply aware of myself as a new reality in the universe and the feeling came on very suddenly as I was leaning up against that wall looking out over the playground.

 

 

 

 

 

I remember at age 18 being disowned by my mother because I went to college, having all my belongings thrown out of the house, my bank account emptied and my dog put to sleep. I realized then that some people are not only ignorant, but mentally ill, and need a lot of prayer and love. I decided then not to take personally the evil actions of others directed at me. I'm inclined to think that it is memories like this that will survive in our active memory matrix, while other less significant ones will have to be reassembled.

 

 

I disagree. There is God's mercy and love in this forgetting of the material life. There is a reason why we must forget. It is God's will for us to forget. That's the whole point. There is more that I want to forget than remember. I look forward to the mansion worlds when one day I will be able to forget.

 

156:5.8"Be not downcast by your failure wholly to forget some of your regrettable experiences. The mistakes which you fail to forget in time will be forgotten in eternity(1739)."

 

Praise Jesus that we will forget!

 

I hope this quote applies to terrible things that others have done to us, not just our own mistakes.

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I disagree. There is God's mercy and love in this forgetting of the material life. There is a reason why we must forget. It is God's will for us to forget. That's the whole point. There is more that I want to forget than remember. I look forward to the mansion worlds when one day I will be able to forget.

 

156:5.8"Be not downcast by your failure wholly to forget some of your regrettable experiences. The mistakes which you fail to forget in time will be forgotten in eternity(1739)."

 

Praise Jesus that we will forget!

 

I hope this quote applies to terrible things that others have done to us, not just our own mistakes.

 

Forgetting the decisions I made, which were to always talk to God, always appreciate my friends and always pray for those who do me ill, would be recklessly counterproductive. I'm sure, Jessica, that you don't really mean that you want to forget those types of things. What you want to forget are your mistakes and other people's mistakes. Please read the quote above again. It is talking about mistakes. None of the memories I shared with you were mistakes; they were triumphs over evil. You, too, will want to remember your spiritual victories, and most especially if they result from experience with the very depths of evil.

 

48:7.15 13. Stars are best discerned from the lonely isolation of experiential depths, not from the illuminated and ecstatic mountain tops.

 

48:7.18 16. You cannot perceive spiritual truth until you feelingly experience it, and many truths are not really felt except in adversity.

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Memories can cause damage to our physical bodies and actually kill them. :( I believe that the horror of the crucifixion is what caused Mary to die shortly thereafter.

 

 

 

48:7.15 13. Stars are best discerned from the lonely isolation of experiential depths, not from the illuminated and ecstatic mountain tops.

 

48:7.18 16. You cannot perceive spiritual truth until you feelingly experience it, and many truths are not really felt except in adversity.

 

You are right about these beautiful quotes. Can these UB authors write or what? Pure poetry. We should remember our decisions, our triumphs over adversity. But that's different. I'm talking about forgetting the horrific things.

 

For example, when I'm on the mansion worlds, I and other vets won't have flashbacks to the war anymore. I will remember the triumphs and the decisions and the people, but I do believe that I will forget the pain and the tragedy. And it's just my opinion, but I believe that stuff like child abuse won't be remembered either. You will have knowledge that stuff like that happened, but you won't have active experiential memory of it the way some people do. I'm talking about the way some people re-live abuse every day of their lives and re-live tragic scenes. They'll know it happened, but they won't be re-living it.

 

There was a woman train driver on 60 Minutes who was driving a train when a guy committed suicide by throwing himself in front of her train. She saw him and felt the thud. She said every day after that she re-lived the horrific experience and couldn't get it out of her head. That is the kind of memory that death will remove, not to remove the knowledge that it happened, but to remove damage that it caused to her mind. Fear kills. Too much stress causes illness. That's why it's very important that I cover my eyes during violence even in movies. Bad memories are bad for your health. I'll bet you dimes to donuts that on the mansion worlds there won't be any need for therapists or 70's psychology groups, no primal screaming. There isn't any need for them on earth either for that matter. LOL

Edited by Midsoniter woman

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Jessica, you're talking about trauma. Do you know that the word "trauma"does not appear in TUB? But it talks excessively about great tribulation, which means mental and/or physical suffering. There is an important role for trauma in our lives. It's when we turn it into drama that it becomes deeply damaging. The art of living is taking those psychic traumas and turning them into spiritual victories. It's not always easy and it may take time; but as you say, there is comfort in knowing that suffering of this nature is ultimately transient.

 

47.8.7 “Coming up through great tribulation” serves to make glorified mortals very kind and understanding, very sympathetic and tolerant.

 

48.7.14 Mortals only learn wisdom by experiencing tribulation.

 

118.10.9 . . . the apparent cruelty of a perverse fate that heaps tribulation upon some suffering mortal may in reality be the tempering fire that is transmuting the soft iron of immature personality into the tempered steel of real character.

 

54.6.4 But one thing should be made clear: If you are made to suffer the evil consequences of the sin of some member of your family, some fellow citizen or fellow mortal, even rebellion in the system or elsewhere — no matter what you may have to endure because of the wrongdoing of your associates, fellows, or superiors — you may rest secure in the eternal assurance that such tribulations are transient afflictions.

 

181.1.6 In this world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer; I have triumphed in the world and shown you the way to eternal joy and everlasting service.

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.

 

This is a question that arises from today's OPAD text. Specifically referring to this paragraph about what we Adjustered ones will remember after death, on Mansonia:

...Even with Adjuster-fusion candidates, only those human experiences which were of spiritual value are common possessions of the surviving mortal and the returning Adjuster and hence are immediately remembered subsequent to mortal survival. Concerning those happenings which were not of spiritual significance, even these Adjuster-fusers must depend upon the attribute of recognition-response in the surviving soul. And since any one event may have a spiritual connotation to one mortal but not to another, it becomes possible for a group of contemporary ascenders from the same planet to pool their store of Adjuster-remembered events and thus to reconstruct any experience which they had in common, and which was of spiritual value in the life of any one of them.... P.451 - §3

 

 

 

.

 

Reminds me of something I read in A Course in Miracles (I know, getting off topic)

which refers to a sort of filtering mechanism as to what gets into Heaven

 

"Only the creations of light are real."

"Everything else is your own nightmare and doesn't exist."

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