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Federico Folchi

How were the Documents written?

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So if I understand correctly, for twenty years before the real solid deep information began to come through, Dr. Sadler and other members of the Contact Group had numerous night time visits to the place where the sleeping subject was sleeping. And during these visits they were having conversations with a number of Celestial Beings, ( many with the midwayers) Getting used to the process...like a training session.

 

I wonder just how these conversations were being carried out. It sounds as if the Contact Group members asked questions out loud and then the invisible Celestial Spirit Beings spoke through the sleeping subject.

 

Does this sound about right ?

 

Yes, that's the impression I have, and the papers were created by some very different method, which the Sadlers didn't understand the particulars of. The fact that the papers were preceded by over 20 years of oral communication is pretty astonishing. That's a long time. And yet Dr. Sadler supposedly remained skeptical until much of Part I've of the papers had come in!

 

So I don't feel too bad about being skeptical.

 

Edit: I just remembered the following comment from Dr. Sadler in the document about the history of the UB, quoted earlier in this thread by EllenRG:

 

Those of us who early attended upon these nocturnal vigils never suspected that we were in contact with anything supernatural.

 

That is, they must have believed that they were dealing with some highly atypical phenomenon of abnormal psychology. I say "atypical" because Dr. Sadler was clearly convinced that what was happening was unlike the phenomena he studied, and debunked, under the heading of "trance mediumship" and the like. He says so in The Mind at Mischief, which was published in 1929, when the contact phenomenon had been going on for almost 20 years. The Sleeping Subject was in some kind of unusual sleep, but different from any kind of trance that Dr. Sadler had witnessed. And if we are to believe what Sadler wrote, even though he had no explanation of the phenomenon in 1929, he still didn't think it was supernatural. He didn't "throw in the towel" until Paper 139, "The Twelve Apostles", arrived, which would have been in or around 1935.

Edited by Todd

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Guest rich.sachs

not to me, i'm not interested in any mortal's opinion nor their integrity in terms of the information in the book, but the books information is done by opinions of beings with the kind of integrity i like. it's no coincidence that you're member no. 3,774 and i'm member no. 3,775.

 

matters concerning origins are relevant. Their integrity matters.

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not to me, i'm not interested in any mortal's opinion nor their integrity in terms of the information in the book, but the books information is done by opinions of beings with the kind of integrity i like.

 

Everything you know about those beings and their opinions is dependent upon the integrity of the mortals who helped to make them available to you. You don't know that there ever was a Sleeping Subject except you've been told by people who were there. You don't know that the UB text you have is what was written on those sheets of paper by whatever means except you've been assured of it by people who were there, and the people who arranged for the typesetting. The integrity of all of these people is presupposed by everything that any of us refer to as "information in the book."

 

If we cannot trust the integrity of the mortal people who made the UB available to us, then we can't trust anything that's written in it. It's as simple as that.

 

it's no coincidence that you're member no. 3,774 and i'm member no. 3,775.

 

How is that? It looks like a coincidence to me.

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If we cannot trust the integrity of the mortal people who made the UB available to us, then we can't trust anything that's written in it. It's as simple as that.

 

Dear Todd,

 

Hopefully this isn't a fact. From all I can gather the revelation's authors invariably exceed by far the humans who were involved in its assembly. From what UB history I know they were all as flawed and I am. And to me, the apocryphal info about the UB is more and more a smoldering mass of these flaws mixed with the actual facts. The only real and dependable validation of the UB is whether its teachings bring enlightenment and love to life. I feel your angst, and hope it will be resolved if that's what you truly want.

 

The thing that negated all my skepticism and doubt was stated simply by a poetically inclined reader who stated the book sings to him. It sang to me, and does more and more as its teachings aggregate and integrate my mind/body/soul with the cosmos, personal and otherwise.

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Dear Todd,

 

Hopefully this isn't a fact. From all I can gather the revelation's authors invariably exceed by far the humans who were involved in its assembly. From what UB history I know they were all as flawed and I am. And to me, the apocryphal info about the UB is more and more a smoldering mass of these flaws mixed with the actual facts. The only real and dependable validation of the UB is whether its teachings bring enlightenment and love to life. I feel your angst, and hope it will be resolved if that's what you truly want.

 

Rick, I don't doubt that all of these people had their flaws, as we all do. But integrity doesn't entail sainthood or absence of flaws. That wasn't my point at all. In this context, integrity means no intention to defraud or to misrepresent matters. For example, some people (such as Harold Sherman) have speculated that Dr. Sadler heavily edited or even wrote substantial parts of the UB. If he did, that would be a major lapse of integrity. If we believe that Dr. Sadler (or any of the other Contact Commissioners) was willing to do such a thing, then for anything we read in the UB we have to ask ourselves whether that part is just Sadler's invention. That changes everything.

 

I do not believe that the only real and dependable validation of the UB is whether its teachings bring enlightenment and love to life. For one thing, that could be true of the text as a whole, even though parts of it were corrupt. If the integrity of the Contact Commission is in doubt, then there could be entire papers missing, and we wouldn't necessarily know it, or detect diminished enlightenment and love. Not only that, there are rather large amounts of content in the UB that have no obvious connection to human spirituality, such as descriptions of spornagia, sub-breathers, and so forth.

 

In the Critique of Pure Reason, Kant said that there are really only three important questions in philosophy: What can I know? What should I do? and What can I hope? The second question, What should I do?, is answered in the UB in a manner that is not radically different from what has been transmitted through Christianity and the other great religions. I should love my neighbor as myself. I should love God. I should strive to live selflessly and serve others. But the other two questions, What can I know? and What can I hope?--get dramatically new and revolutionary answers in the UB. To the extent that those answers were once part of earlier epochal revelations, they were either distorted or lost. Christianity has some things to say, and the UB has some rather different things. If the truth about such things matters at all, then we must decide which source is trustworthy.

 

The Christian view is that the Bible is trustworthy because it was protected, in its compilation and transmission, by the Holy Spirit. The UB tells us that the Bible was not so protected, and is the highly flawed result of human errors of understanding and transmission. They can't both be right. The Bible has brought love, and joy, and consolation, and enlightenment, and peace to many, many people. The UB, in the short time that it has been around, has done the same. So that "test" does not and cannot be the only possible validation of the UB. The Bible has generated strife and contention, but so has the UB. Anyone who has been around the UB reader community for any length of time knows this.

 

I don't claim that the integrity of Dr. Sadler is the only thing that matters, but I do think it's one thing that matters, and cannot be dismissed as irrelevant. My own impression is that, despite his flaws, he was indeed a man of integrity. If I didn't think so, I would have stopped grappling with the UB long ago.

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.

 

Great points all Todd,

 

But is it truly logical to look outside the text for proof of its authenticity and its validity as a revelation? By that I mean doesn't one have to buy wholeheartedly into a method of mind/spirit expansion in order to test its worth and value? I think skeptical reservations have to be abandoned, always knowing that if this boat begins to leak, I will see it and find a better one. Giving oneself over to a certain teaching does not mean one has to embrace it for eternity.

 

You enjoy citing the great teachers. Do you know of William James' book, Varieties of Religious Experience, wherein he tries on several well used faiths, and declares that each leads to God? In short, it is the dedication that counts as much if not more than the method. Yogananda knew this, Ram Dass (Richard Alpert), Ghandi et al.

 

The Papers offer the finest spiritual growth tools now available on the planet, and that's because they exude spirit fragrance and cosmic completion, and are the closest to the truth. Is every word in perfect accordance with God's will. No one is saying that, and it is acceptable to have questions. I have an ever growing list for the Revelators, Melchizedeks and others.

 

The believers I know trust and use these teachings because they harmonize with their inner knowing. They confirm their "personal religious experiences" and lead them to deeper knowing of that inscrutable and attractive Indweller whose mission is to enlighten via love. Surely you've read that you grow from suspending doubt and diving in, even flawed teachings can render good results when the student is devoted to finding the truth about the cosmic mystery, no matter what. When I find good waters, I don't wade on the shore, I jump in the deep water head first. But we're all different, thanks be, eh?

 

.

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Great points all Todd,

 

But is it truly logical to look outside the text for proof of its authenticity and its validity as a revelation? By that I mean doesn't one have to buy wholeheartedly into a method of mind/spirit expansion in order to test its worth and value?

 

Quite the opposite, in my view. When you buy into it wholeheartedly, the first thing you lose is your critical edge. You start to notice only that which validates what you have bought into, and avoid or dismiss that which challenges it. It's called "confirmation bias" and it's very real and very well documented.

 

I take it as a basic truth that any text is only as believable as its source is trustworthy. In fact, I think everyone here would agree with me on that, for any other text. If I gave you a book describing an amazing cure for cancer, and if you had a friend or relative suffering with cancer, you would want to know who wrote the book. You'd be entirely right to want to know that, and if I said it doesn't matter, just judge by what it says, you'd be very right to be skeptical, especially if the cure described in the book were physically or financially demanding.

 

In the case of the UB, the beings who purport to have written it are apparently the sort of beings who know what they are talking about, although we don't really know what their various designators mean apart from the contents of the book itself. But since the production of written revelation by celestial beings isn't something that the human race has much, or any, experience with, we have every reason to be skeptical.

 

I want to make something clear. Many readers say that when they read certain parts of the UB they have the sense that they are reading something that no mortal couldn't have written. I completely understand that. I have the same feeling myself about some parts of the book.

I do not, however, believe that a feeling of that sort is a sufficient reason to accept the book as supermortally authored revelation. My reason is very simple: I know full well that other people have the same feeling about other texts, such as the Book of Mormon. If that feeling were all that is required to validate a book, we'd have to call the Book of Mormon validated, too. But if the UB and the BOM are both validated by feelings, then they are both valid, i.e., true. But the BOM says Jesus came to the Americas, and the UB says he didn't. If they're both valid then Jesus did and didn't come to the Americas, which is nonsense. At least one of these books (and others could be named too, of course) isn't what it says it is. Possibly both.

 

You enjoy citing the great teachers. Do you know of William James' book, Varieties of Religious Experience, wherein he tries on several well used faiths, and declares that each leads to God? In short, it is the dedication that counts as much if not more than the method. Yogananda knew this, Ram Dass (Richard Alpert), Ghandi et al.

 

Yes, I'm very familiar with it. James was a pragmatist, and therefore an anti-realist. That means that he did not believe there is any "fact of the matter" as to whether religious experiences and texts are "true" or "false". I am not an anti-realist. For the record, the UB doesn't espouse anti-realism either.

 

When I find good waters, I don't wade on the shore, I jump in the deep water head first. But we're all different, thanks be, eh?

 

We are indeed. It takes all kinds, as they say.

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But the BOM says Jesus came to the Americas, and the UB says he didn't.

In the spirit of Robert Heinlein's "Fair Witness", the authors do not actually

state that Jesus did not visit tribes in the Americas...

 

"As participants in the Master’s morontia-transition experience, there had

come to Urantia more than one million morontia directors and associates,

together with transition mortals of various orders from the seven mansion

worlds of Satania. The morontia Jesus sojourned with these splendid

intelligences for forty days. [...]." [(2040.4) 191:3.1]

Sounds like Michael was quite busy during those post resurrection weeks :D

Nigel

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Guest rich.sachs

like rick warren says in the next post, all that matters is how you feel about the information, does it sound true to you and bring you more happiness in your life. george michael said he's gotta have faith. 47:9.2 Here you begin a new and more spiritual worship of the unseen Father, a habit you will increasingly pursue all the way up through your long ascending career.

 

god is unseen and therefore unproved until you reach paradise. 86:2.2 The struggle for life is so painful that certain backward tribes even yet howl and lament over each new sunrise. Primitive man constantly asked, “Who is tormenting me?” Not finding a material source for his miseries, he settled upon a spirit explanation. And so was religion born of the fear of the mysterious, the awe of the unseen, and the dread of the unknown. Nature fear thus became a factor in the struggle for existence first because of chance and then because of mystery.

 

not just primitive man but i ask this question too.

 

How is that? It looks like a coincidence to me.

 

i don't believe in coincidence, i believe everything is angelically driven. they are beings who understand that service to others is truly and exhaustingly the purpose of existence and so they find their happiness in doing things for and with mortals all the time. we are polar opposites in our thoughts, todd, and we just happened to sign up one and two in the 3,000's, that's a heck of a coincidence, and there's not many regular posters on here out of 3,800 or so members. if all 3,800 were posting regularly we might not be able to find the posts we're looking for.

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Sounds like Michael was quite busy during those post resurrection weeks :unsure:

Nigel

 

 

Good point! And since it doesn't say where he sojourned with them, I guess it could have been in the Americas. Keep in mind, however, that the verb "sojourn" is about spending time in a particular place, not traveling from place to place. So, as busy as Michael no doubt was, he wasn't busy traveling.

 

At any rate, the general point is that how one feels about the UB, the Koran, the BOM, Oahspe, ACIM or any other text does not and cannot validate it. There's a fundamental difference between saying I like it / it sings to me / it resonates with me etc. and saying it's true.

 

like rick warren says in the next post, all that matters is how you feel about the information, does it sound true to you and bring you more happiness in your life.

 

For me, anyway, how I feel about the information is strongly affected by whether or not I can believe that it's true. And whether or not I can believe it's true has little or nothing to do with how I feel about it.

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At any rate, the general point is that how one feels about the UB, the Koran, the BOM, Oahspe, ACIM or any other text does not and cannot validate it. There's a fundamental difference between saying I like it / it sings to me / it resonates with me etc. and saying it's true.

 

For me, anyway, how I feel about the information is strongly affected by whether or not I can believe that it's true. And whether or not I can believe it's true has little or nothing to do with how I feel about it.

 

And this is precisely why you will forever remain a philosopher rather than a religionist. While you stand on the shore analyzing the validity of the living waters with dry reasoning, the religionist is actively swimming in them. Validation comes from experience in the living waters, not on the safe phlegmatic shores. It's not to say that the religionist abandons reason, but rather gains wisdom derived from experience which is augmented by the growth of spiritual insight acquired by actually swimming in and with the reality of Truth.

 

The philosopher stands on the shore testing the waters with his fact-finding, logical and rational mind, while the religionist has the courage to make the trusting leap of faith required to actually experience the living truth, all the while continuing to think rationally and logically. Faith trumps belief every time it's tried. One must be willing to jump in wholeheartedly and engage in a genuine personal relationship with an experience that lies outside of the rational mind's ability to fully comprehend, which is why Jesus taught that it is impossible to enter the kingdom without the trusting innocence of a child. Without the courage to do this, one is left operating solely with the intellect and beliefs, whereas the religionist acts on faith with both the soul and the intellect, obviously a more balanced approach; an approach necessary to effectively transfer the seat of one's identity to an eternal reality of living truth.

 

The true religionist allows himself to be carried to the open sea of living truth, leaving the philosopher behind trying to figure it all out. Of course, to the one left standing on the shore observing this phenomenon, all those in the water will appear to be childish, irrational and irresponsible. But they thought the same of Jesus.

 

To actually feel the presence of God is far more important in validating the truth of his existence than the ability to analyze the facts of his existence. You cannot discover the fact of his existence without having first felt the truth of his existence as a personal religious experience (born of the spirit). It is not possible to feel the presence of God unless you jump in the living water, an act of true baptism, a measure of true faith and trust, proof of true loyalty and devotion to ideal and true values which are beyond the ability to factually validate from outside the experience (which is what makes it forever personal).

 

Anyone who has attempted to actually live the truths found on the pages of this revelation has made that leap of faith into a relationship with living truth. The text is merely a springboard from which to make that leap into living waters. The proof is in the actual experience of leaping, not in the reading of the text, or the study of its origin. Of course, this will only make sense to those who have had the courage to leap; to the rest, it's another exercise in logic on the barren shores of aridity.

 

p1219:5  111:3.6 Mind knows quantity, reality, meanings. But quality—values—is felt. That which feels is the mutual creation of mind, which knows, and the associated spirit, which reality-izes.

 

103:1.6    The realization of the recognition of spiritual values is an experience which is superideational. There is no word in any human language which can be employed to designate this "sense," "feeling," "intuition," or "experience" which we have elected to call God-consciousness.

 

p1140:8 103:9.2 Religion has to do with feeling, acting, and living, not merely with thinking.

 

155:6.12 And this, "It is not the mental immaturity of the child that I commend to you but rather the spiritual simplicity of such an easy-believing and fully-trusting little one. It is not so important that you should know about the fact of God as that you should increasingly grow in the ability to feel the presence of God."

 

p1104:4  101:1.1  True religion is not a system of philosophic belief which can be reasoned out and substantiated by natural proofs, neither is it a fantastic and mystic experience of indescribable feelings of ecstasy which can be enjoyed only by the romantic devotees of mysticism. Religion is not the product of reason, but viewed from within, it is altogether reasonable. Religion is not derived from the logic of human philosophy, but as a mortal experience it is altogether logical. Religion is the experiencing of divinity in the consciousness of a moral being of evolutionary origin; it represents true experience with eternal realities in time, the realization of spiritual satisfactions while yet in the flesh.

 

p1116:07 Reason alone can never validate the values and goodnesses of religious experience. But it will always remain true: Whosoever wills to do the will of God shall comprehend the validity of spiritual values. This is the nearest approach that can be made on the mortal level to offering proofs of the reality of religious experience.

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Todd;

 

i believe that it is okay for you to feel the way you do. You have to do what feels right for you until the Spirit of truth gives you a "thumbs up"

 

Look at the case of Helen Schucman the human conduit for A Course in Miracles" Although this material had touched the lives of millions around the globe; Helen ( with a Ph.D in Clinical Psychology) had great difficulty in accepting it right up to the time she passed away.

 

Then we have the case of Dr. William Sadler.. The main person involved with the delivery of the Urantia Papers, from the super human levels to the human levels, was skeptical about the validity of the material, over a span of 25 years until one day in 1936 . On that day he had just finished reading Paper 139 entitled " the Twelve Apostles" and something happened deep inside and he finally felt that the material was valid..

 

My mother-in-law had this saying "When you eat chicken, you don't have to eat the bones" She was a very open minded fundamental christian (sounds like a contradiction doesn't it) but she meant that when she was reading a book and there were some things in it that she could accept...and some others that she could not accept; she wasn't going to condemn the whole book as being worthless.. She would take truth where ever she found it.

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The true religionist allows himself to be carried to the open sea of living truth, leaving the philosopher behind trying to figure it all out.

 

Hey Bonita!

 

I've been carried out to that open sea, too, in search of the farther shores of spiritual realities. . .

 

The religion of the spirit means effort, struggle, conflict, faith, determination, love, loyalty, and progress. The religion of the mind--the theology of authority--requires little or none of these exertions from its formal believers. Tradition is a safe refuge and an easy path for those fearful and halfhearted souls who instinctively shun the spirit struggles and mental uncertainties associated with those faith voyages of daring adventure out upon the high seas of unexplored truth in search for the farther shores of spiritual realities as they may be discovered by the progressive human mind and experienced by the evolving human soul.
P. 1729 - §6

 

Does not the philospher seek the meaning of life also? Rodan was a gifted philosopher. He got it (the kingdom of heaven) and continued on ever afterwards. One of the seven developmental epochs of planetary progress is this one: The epoch of philosophy and brotherhood. Check out PAPER 50, Section 5 for more.

 

The organization of a philosophic standard of living entails considerable commotion in the philosophic realms of the mind. Loyalties are not exercised in behalf of the great, the good, the true, and the noble without a struggle. Effort is attendant upon clarification of spiritual vision and enhancement of cosmic insight.
P. 1097 - §6

 

Where there is life, there is hope. Anyone can "get it" (the kingdom of heaven) suddenly. At least that's what I think.

 

Thanks,

Meredith

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Guest rich.sachs

my only experience with metaphysical books and how they are written, and of course, i'm only dealing with the ones i like and believe in. there's acim and the automatic writing of helen. by the way, i go to 3 different acim groups and am by far the best sharer at them, and seth's speaking and being recorded by robert butts writing. logic says there is no other way to produce a book not written by a mortal. tub goes back much further than these other two books in a time when it could be easier to not know how it was written. the fact that the revelators were careful to have the human involved unknown is the way they did it and interesting to keep him completely anonymous.

 

Todd;

 

i believe that it is okay for you to feel the way you do. You have to do what feels right for you until the Spirit of truth gives you a "thumbs up"

 

Look at the case of Helen Schucman the human conduit for A Course in Miracles" Although this material had touched the lives of millions around the globe; Helen ( with a Ph.D in Clinical Psychology) had great difficulty in accepting it right up to the time she passed away.

 

Then we have the case of Dr. William Sadler.. The main person involved with the delivery of the Urantia Papers, from the super human levels to the human levels, was skeptical about the validity of the material, over a span of 25 years until one day in 1936 . On that day he had just finished reading Paper 139 entitled " the Twelve Apostles" and something happened deep inside and he finally felt that the material was valid..

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And this is precisely why you will forever remain a philosopher rather than a religionist. While you stand on the shore analyzing the validity of the living waters with dry reasoning, the religionist is actively swimming in them. Validation comes from experience in the living waters, not on the safe phlegmatic shores. It's not to say that the religionist abandons reason, but rather gains wisdom derived from experience which is augmented by the growth of spiritual insight acquired by actually swimming in and with the reality of Truth.

 

I'm okay with that. Being a philosopher is good enough.

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my only experience with metaphysical books and how they are written, and of course, i'm only dealing with the ones i like and believe in. there's acim and the automatic writing of helen. by the way, i go to 3 different acim groups and am by far the best sharer at them, and seth's speaking and being recorded by robert butts writing. logic says there is no other way to produce a book not written by a mortal. tub goes back much further than these other two books in a time when it could be easier to not know how it was written. the fact that the revelators were careful to have the human involved unknown is the way they did it and interesting to keep him completely anonymous.

 

As I think I mentioned in one thread or another, before I read the UB the first time, I read and "did" ACIM, and attended a study group for a year or so. I also read the first two volumes of the Seth material. I'm not intending to run afoul of the rules of this forum by discussing those works; I'm just indicating that I'm familiar with them.

 

But I am interested in discussing your claim that "Logic says there is no other way to produce a book not written by a mortal." That is, no other way than automatic writing. I don't see how logic says that.

 

If we assume that there are supermortal beings interested in producing books, how does logic tell us that the only way to do so is to induce a mortal human being to engage in automatic writing? Books are physical objects, so I think we can assume that producing a book involves causal interactions with the physical world. Matter and energy must be controlled in some way or other, so that words appear on paper. If we assume that supermortal beings are incapable of causal interactions with the physical world, then that would create a problem, for sure. But why should we assume such a thing? Does logic require us to believe that supermortal beings are incapable of causal interactions with the physical world? I don't think it does.

 

In fact, even if we suppose that it's done by automatic writing, this would involve causal interactions with the nervous system of the mortal involved, and the nervous system is also part of the physical world. So if supermortal beings are incapable of causal interactions with the physical world, they would be incapable of producing books by automatic writing, too.

 

It seems to me that once we grant the existence of supermortal beings who can interact with the physical world, we also grant any number of ways in which they could produce a book.

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What is channelling?

 

As I see it the word is borrowed from telecommunication theory where the “channel” is the expression for the entire pass of the information (and the associated energy) from the sender of the information to the receiver.

 

Typically the communication channel introduces some noise and other types of disturbances and distortions to the information originally sent. Sometimes or quite often a “training sequence of information symbols” of the code sent through the cannel is sent initially. Because the symbols of this training sequence are known to the receiver, it enables the receiver to determine the type and amount of distortion appearing in the (often digital) communication channel.

 

The human ear has a marvellous capacity to retrieve messages from a noisy sound channel, where the channel is (for instance) the air of our atmosphere.

 

UB (505.4) 44:5.7 _ 6. The experts of communication. Urantia, likewise, is served by twelve technicians of interplanetary and interuniverse communication. These long-experienced beings are expert in the knowledge of the laws of transmittal and interference as applied to the communications of the realms.

 

In instead of the word “channel” the UBook often refers to circuits or “information passing over circuits”, which is an analogous expression. Also the method of back registry is used by our modern communication experts. Almost every known communication channel introduces some errors in the original information.

 

UB (504.2) 44:4.10 The local universe broadcasts must also be modified for reception by the systems and the individual planets. The transmittal of these space reports is carefully supervised, and there is always a back registry to insure the proper reception of every report on every world in a given circuit. These broadcast directors are technically expert in the utilization of the currents of space for all purposes of intelligence communication.

 

Very probably the same type of basic channel considerations applies to the little known spiritual communication phenomena. However, when a person really only brings up information or patterns already existent in his (subconscious) mind, we are not dealing with a communication through a channel! This process is analogous to reading information from a memory and approximately the same mind process used for any information. Dr. Sadler very clearly emphasized that the human subconscious mind in no way contributed to the final text of the Urantia papers.

 

In clarity, information content and scientific knowledge the UBook text is much superior to any other comparable text, and it is enormously above the level of most so-called “channelled” texts.

When I’m saying this, I have almost 50 years of UBook related research behind, and also a lot of parapsychology research in my younger years!

 

Perhaps this initial period (starting about 1926?) was only a preparation and training of the channel by witch the final text of the Urantia papers were received in 1934 to 1935? And perhaps the final 2 years didn’t even involve any “sleeping subject”!

 

Anyway, both “spirit translators and transformers” and “midwayers” were involved in the final phase of reception. And the human participating had only to write down (in a fully conscious state) text from another paper (or from what he heard as spoken words?)

 

UB (498.7) 44:0.16 I cannot, with exclusive spirit vision, perceive the building in which this narrative is being translated and recorded. A Divine Counselor from Uversa who chances to stand by my side perceives still less of these purely material creations. We discern how these material structures appear to you by viewing a spirit counterpart presented to our minds by one of our attending energy transformers. This material building is not exactly real to me, a spirit being, but it is, of course, very real and very serviceable to material mortals.

 

It is a bit sad, that we don’t have a reliable documentation of what Dr. Sadler knew about the phenomenon, although he might not have understood much himsef.

 

 

http://urantiabook.org/archive/history/h_timlin_3.htm

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What is channelling?

 

As I see it the word is borrowed from telecommunication theory where the “channel” is the expression for the entire pass of the information (and the associated energy) from the sender of the information to the receiver.

 

I think the term "channeling" was coined as a more modern-sounding, quasi-scientific term to replace the more traditional "mediumship". I think it's meant to be understood as a phenomenon in which a human being allows himself/herself to be used as a conduit through which some putative discarnate being may communicate. As such, it overlaps with another traditional category, that of "possession." Possession is usually thought of as involuntary, whereas channeling is typically voluntary. There are exceptions, however.

 

Very probably the same type of basic channel considerations applies to the little known spiritual communication phenomena. However, when a person really only brings up information or patterns already existent in his (subconscious) mind, we are not dealing with a communication through a channel! This process is analogous to reading information from a memory and approximately the same mind process used for any information. Dr. Sadler very clearly emphasized that the human subconscious mind in no way contributed to the final text of the Urantia papers.

 

Dr. Sadler also clearly and emphatically stated his belief that all alleged instances of what we would call channeling were in fact cases of unconscious material being expressed--or outright fraud. I assume that he would have been familiar with certain notorious cases, such as the Patience Worth material. As a psychiatrist, he also knew that material that is disclosed in a dissociated state, such as trance or fugue, is accessible by means of hypnosis and similar methods. This is why his inability to elicit any knowledge of the Contact material from the mind of the Sleeping Subject, via hypnosis or any other means, puzzled and impressed him.

 

Perhaps this initial period (starting about 1926?) was only a preparation and training of the channel by witch the final text of the Urantia papers were received in 1934 to 1935? And perhaps the final 2 years didn’t even involve any “sleeping subject”!

 

Before the papers were produced, the Contact phenomenon appears to have been spoken. In at least one description, Dr. Sadler mentions that it wasn't the Sleeping Subject's voice, which is very striking. After that, it's anyone's guess.

 

Anyway, both “spirit translators and transformers” and “midwayers” were involved in the final phase of reception. And the human participating had only to write down (in a fully conscious state) text from another paper (or from what he heard as spoken words?)

 

I've never before heard the theory that the human participating was actually transcribing speech.

 

UB (498.7) 44:0.16 I cannot, with exclusive spirit vision, perceive the building in which this narrative is being translated and recorded. A Divine Counselor from Uversa who chances to stand by my side perceives still less of these purely material creations. We discern how these material structures appear to you by viewing a spirit counterpart presented to our minds by one of our attending energy transformers. This material building is not exactly real to me, a spirit being, but it is, of course, very real and very serviceable to material mortals.

 

Yes, that passage makes me wonder if they could perceive the planet at all!

 

It is a bit sad, that we don’t have a reliable documentation of what Dr. Sadler knew about the phenomenon, although he might not have understood much himsef.

 

I agree.

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Todd and HSTa

 

The Urantia Book, in at least two places, states that a human was used to communicate the material.

See Paper 110.5.7 Page 1208 last para and see Paper 114.7.7 Page 1258 1st para , human mind was utilized

 

And furthermore if you read Paper 155.6.12 Page 1732 last para and top of 1733 you will find that Divine Truth can be bestowed through a human "channel" ( exact word used in the Urantia Book)

meaning that a human mind can convey Divine truth like that contained within the UB

 

It is very possible that there was a long chain of Celestial Beings involved with the revelation being transmitted, from the highest inner levels down to where we human mortals currently dwell, right down to the final written form, by unseen Super Human Beings, But the above noted places within the UB tell the readers that a human mortal somehow, someway was used in one of the steps very close to the completed product; The UB papers.

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Todd

 

It is my understanding that it is the higher beings that have trouble seeing or feeling physical matter because they are so far removed from this level. But the beings closer to us in this dense part of the Cosmos can see and recognize physical structures. Probably the Midwayers can relate the best then followed by the Seraphim, Cheribum, etc and of course the Melchizedeks, who can shift and interact with mortal beings.

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Thanks both for you comments.

 

We humbly have to admit our ignorance about much that is going on in our minds and in the universe.

 

The following is familiar ground to me:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Channel_(communications)

 

 

But if information from strange sours is to be used in our Earth life, we are on “dangerous ground”:

 

"More often, in beings of your order, that which you accept as the Adjuster's voice is in reality the emanation of your own intellect. This is dangerous ground, and every human being must settle these problems for himself in accordance with his natural human wisdom and superhuman insight." UB p. 1208

 

Therefore many human beings would prefer some kind of verification of the truth of all information received. The Urantia Papers supply us with a large amount of information that might be analyzed and finally verified by scientific research.

 

For instance, supposed communications from a dead person can’t be genuine information if that person isn’t a living conscious entity, on our or some other planet!

 

Also theories that are mutually in obvious contradiction can’t be accepted by a thinking person as genuine in both cases.

 

But I agree that religious teachings might have a considerable value, other than scientific theories and truth discovered by acceptable research methods. Personally, I would prefer that also religious truth might be related to reality in some way; therefore I have concluded that the Urantia Papers quite probably satisfy what I have been looking for!

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But if information from strange sours is to be used in our Earth life, we are on “dangerous ground”:

 

"More often, in beings of your order, that which you accept as the Adjuster's voice is in reality the emanation of your own intellect. This is dangerous ground, and every human being must settle these problems for himself in accordance with his natural human wisdom and superhuman insight." UB p. 1208

 

Therefore many human beings would prefer some kind of verification of the truth of all information received. The Urantia Papers supply us with a large amount of information that might be analyzed and finally verified by scientific research.

 

I think verification of all information received is unattainable. But if enough of what can be verified is verified, it's more reasonable to trust what can't be verified.

 

I like the fact that the UB, unlike some other allegedly channeled materials, takes risks.

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Guest rich.sachs

i believe jesus visited the americas during his public mission which would give more credence to bom. this is a plausible example of what's not revealed in the ub as it wouldn't be appropriate for the reveletors to talk about such. bilocation as a miracle exists for many great teachers from this planet, i believe the new sovereign of a universe used this technique to spend time with the indians while he was still alive in the flesh. in the morontia jesus was concerned with the morontia beings and not mortals anymore. by the way, many great spiritual beings have shown themselves to people they left behind on this world in the morontia, similar to jesus' appearance to mortals in the morontia. yoganada's guru did it, so did sai baba did bilocation to someone who was alive that i know personally. bilocation

 

noun

the ability (said of certain Roman Catholic saints) to exist simultaneously in two locations

 

160:1.10 But the greatest of all methods of problem solving I have learned from Jesus, your Master. I refer to that which he so consistently practices, and which he has so faithfully taught you, the isolation of worshipful meditation. In this habit of Jesus' going off so frequently by himself to commune with the Father in heaven is to be found the technique, not only of gathering strength and wisdom for the ordinary conflicts of living, but also of appropriating the energy for the solution of the higher problems of a moral and spiritual nature. But even correct methods of solving problems will not compensate for inherent defects of personality or atone for the absence of the hunger and thirst for true righteousness.

 

160:1.11 I am deeply impressed with the custom of Jesus in going apart by himself to engage in these seasons of solitary survey of the problems of living; to seek for new stores of wisdom and energy for meeting the manifold demands of social service; to quicken and deepen the supreme purpose of living by actually subjecting the total personality to the consciousness of contacting with divinity; to grasp for possession of new and better methods of adjusting oneself to the ever-changing situations of living existence; to effect those vital reconstructions and readjustments of one's personal attitudes which are so essential to enhanced insight into everything worth while and real; and to do all of this with an eye single to the glory of God—to breathe in sincerity your Master's favorite prayer, "Not my will, but yours, be done."

 

160:1.12 This worshipful practice of your Master brings that relaxation which renews the mind; that illumination which inspires the soul; that courage which enables one bravely to face one's problems; that self-understanding which obliterates debilitating fear; and that consciousness of union with divinity which equips man with the assurance that enables him to dare to be Godlike. The relaxation of worship, or spiritual communion as practiced by the Master, relieves tension, removes conflicts, and mightily augments the total resources of the personality. And all this philosophy, plus the gospel of the kingdom, constitutes the new religion as I understand it.

 

 

 

In the spirit of Robert Heinlein's "Fair Witness", the authors do not actually

state that Jesus did not visit tribes in the Americas...

 

 

Sounds like Michael was quite busy during those post resurrection weeks :unsure:

Nigel

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i believe jesus visited the americas during his public mission which would give more credence to bom. this is a plausible example of what's not revealed in the ub as it wouldn't be appropriate for the reveletors to talk about such.

 

I don't quite understandd why it wouldn't be appropriate for the revelators to describe visits to the Americas via bilocation. The stated purpose of Part IV of the UB is to give us an expanded and more accurate account of the life and teachings of Jesus. What would be the point of withholding such significant phenomena?

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Guest rich.sachs

i said either automatic writing or someone wrote down what he was saying. 77:8.12 Many of the more literal phenomena ascribed to angels have been performed by the secondary midway creatures. When the early teachers of the gospel of Jesus were thrown into prison by the ignorant religious leaders of that day, an actual “angel of the Lord” “by night opened the prison doors and brought them forth.” But in the case of peter’s deliverance after the killing of James by Herod’s order, it was a secondary midwayer who performed the work ascribed to an angel.

 

granted if i midwayer can open a locked cell door then they can produce a book in a safe, vault or on a desk top if they want to. i see these actions as no earthly way to achieve the objective, exceptions to the rule and necessary, in this example to save peter's life, otherwise he would have been killed. but automatic writing could have been performed to produce the book and what's more loving. god always does what's more loving, jesus was born of a woman when he could have come as a full-fledged adult, it says so in tub, which is more loving to mortals.

 

119:7.2 The public announcement that Michael had selected Urantia as the theater for his final bestowal was made shortly after we learned about the default of Adam and Eve. And thus, for more than thirty-five thousand years, your world occupied a very conspicuous place in the councils of the entire universe. There was no secrecy (aside from the incarnation mystery) connected with any step in the Urantia bestowal. From first to last, up to the final and triumphant return of Michael to Salvington as supreme Universe Sovereign, there was the fullest universe publicity of all that transpired on your small but highly honored world.

 

119:7.3 While we believed that this would be the method, we never knew, until the time of the event itself, that Michael would appear on earth as a helpless infant of the realm. Theretofore had he always appeared as a fully developed individual of the personality group of the bestowal selection, and it was a thrilling announcement which was broadcast from Salvington telling that the babe of Bethlehem had been born on Urantia.

 

 

As I think I mentioned in one thread or another, before I read the UB the first time, I read and "did" ACIM, and attended a study group for a year or so. I also read the first two volumes of the Seth material. I'm not intending to run afoul of the rules of this forum by discussing those works; I'm just indicating that I'm familiar with them.

 

But I am interested in discussing your claim that "Logic says there is no other way to produce a book not written by a mortal." That is, no other way than automatic writing. I don't see how logic says that.

 

If we assume that there are supermortal beings interested in producing books, how does logic tell us that the only way to do so is to induce a mortal human being to engage in automatic writing? Books are physical objects, so I think we can assume that producing a book involves causal interactions with the physical world. Matter and energy must be controlled in some way or other, so that words appear on paper. If we assume that supermortal beings are incapable of causal interactions with the physical world, then that would create a problem, for sure. But why should we assume such a thing? Does logic require us to believe that supermortal beings are incapable of causal interactions with the physical world? I don't think it does.

 

In fact, even if we suppose that it's done by automatic writing, this would involve causal interactions with the nervous system of the mortal involved, and the nervous system is also part of the physical world. So if supermortal beings are incapable of causal interactions with the physical world, they would be incapable of producing books by automatic writing, too.

 

It seems to me that once we grant the existence of supermortal beings who can interact with the physical world, we also grant any number of ways in which they could produce a book.

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