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Rick Warren

Apparent Contradictions

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Forum Friends,

 

Sooner or later every enduring student/teacher must address APPARENT inconsistencies in the text because new students will always come to seasoned readers with their questions. What will you say to these new and sincere readers, as well as debunkers and detractors, when they ask about these seeming contradictions?

 

Over the years, I have seen several brought out by readers. Only yesterday did Jessica mention one about Nalda's morality. Below are two more cases that appear to contradict, one on worshipping goodness, and one on Jesus declaring God as king.

 

...One believes truth, admires beauty, and reverences goodness, but does not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone, who is all of these personified and infinitely more.... P.1114 - §5

 

...Mortal man must, through the recognition of truth, the appreciation of beauty, and the worship of goodness, evolve the recognition of a God of love and then progress through ascending deity levels to the comprehension of the Supreme.... p641

 

...We find God through the leadings of spiritual insight, but we approach this insight of the soul through the love of the beautiful, the pursuit of truth, loyalty to duty, and the worship of divine goodness.... P.2076 - §5

 

***

 

"...I declare that the kingdom of heaven is the realization and acknowledgment of God's rule within the hearts of men. True, there is a King in this kingdom, and that King is my Father and your Father. We are indeed his loyal subjects, but far transcending that fact is the transforming truth that we are his sons..." p1588

 

...For these and other reasons, the Master thought best to designate the spiritual brotherhood of man as the kingdom of heaven and the spirit head of this brotherhood as the Father in heaven. Never did Jesus refer to his Father as a king. In his intimate talks with the apostles he always referred to himself as the Son of Man and as their elder brother. He depicted all his followers as servants of mankind and messengers of the gospel of the kingdom.... p1855

 

...Jesus never called the Father a king, and he very much regretted that the Jewish hope for a restored kingdom and John's proclamation of a coming kingdom made it necessary for him to denominate his proposed spiritual brotherhood the kingdom of heaven. With the one exception—the declaration that " God is spirit "—Jesus never referred to Deity in any manner other than in terms descriptive of his own personal relationship with the First Source and Center of Paradise.... p1856

 

***

 

In my opinion it is crucial for reader/believers not to gloss over anything resembling a contradiction or inconsistency. And it is also monumentally important that the revelation not be presented as absolute truth. Not because I say so, but that the authors declare it so:

 

Truth cannot be defined with words, only by living....P.1459 - §2

 

Divine truth is a spirit-discerned and living reality. Truth exists only on high spiritual levels of the realization of divinity and the consciousness of communion with God. You can know the truth, and you can live the truth; you can experience the growth of truth in the soul and enjoy the liberty of its enlightenment in the mind, but you cannot imprison truth in formulas, codes, creeds, or intellectual patterns of human conduct. When you undertake the human formulation of divine truth, it speedily dies. The post-mortem salvage of imprisoned truth, even at best, can eventuate only in the realization of a peculiar form of intellectualized glorified wisdom. Static truth is dead truth, and only dead truth can be held as a theory. Living truth is dynamic and can enjoy only an experiential existence in the human mind.P.1949 - §4

 

It is a mistake to call the Urantia Book a 'truth book'. It is instead a book of celestially indited revealed facts frozen in ink for all time in 1955. Yet it is truly the greatest book ever written and will eventually lead humanity to God, if humanity will be led (and I believe it will). Much depends on how wisely this revelation is handled and propagated by reader/believers like us. Declaring the revelation absolute and perfect truth will not serve it well, and the authors said so on more than one occasion.

 

If the angels inherently know the number of the hairs on your head, I believe the authors were completely aware of every bit of the content and implication of every word in the book. And they left in apparent inconsistencies and contradictions to confound literalists and book-thumpers who would make a fetish out of a time/space revelation that must needs be imperfect due to conceptual poverty, revelatory constraints and language limitations.

 

Your comments, questions and contradictions/explanations are most welcome.

 

Much love, Rick

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Well, let's dissect this piece by piece.

 

Taking a look at the issue of worshipping divine goodness, the first quote is taken from the opening paragraph on the difference between faith and belief:

 

p1114:5 101:8.1 Belief has attained the level of faith when it motivates life and shapes the mode of living. The acceptance of a teaching as true is not faith; that is mere belief. Neither is certainty nor conviction faith. A state of mind attains to faith levels only when it actually dominates the mode of living. Faith is a living attribute of genuine personal religious experience. One believes truth, admires beauty, and reverences goodness, but does not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone, who is all of these personified and infinitely more.

 

Taking the comment in context reveals that truth, beauty and goodness at the level of belief may result in admiration and reverence; but, when belief is elevated to faith experience, it reveals a person who can be worshipped, God himself.

 

The next quote is essentially saying the same thing using the words "worship" instead of "reverence", "recognition" instead of "believe", "appreciation" instead of "admire". Humans evolve from this level of comprehension of the individual manifestations of love to eventually a higher faith experience of God himself and the Supreme. Just like moving from belief to faith, this quote is describing a growth in spiritual capacity.

 

p641:4 56:6.3 The material-minded creatures of the evolutionary worlds of the seven superuniverses can comprehend Deity unity only as it is evolving in this power-personality synthesis of the Supreme Being. On any level of existence God cannot exceed the conceptual capacity of the beings who live on such a level. Mortal man must, through the recognition of truth, the appreciation of beauty, and the worship of goodness, evolve the recognition of a God of love and then progress through ascending deity levels to the comprehension of the Supreme. Deity, having been thus grasped as unified in power, can then be personalized in spirit to creature understanding and attainment.

 

Again, the last quote is describing the same exact process of progressing from experience with truth, beauty and goodness, an experience "of" God, to the actual experience "with" God, which is God consciousness or spiritual insight.

 

p2076:5 195:5.14 In religion, Jesus advocated and followed the method of experience, even as modern science pursues the technique of experiment. We find God through the leadings of spiritual insight, but we approach this insight of the soul through the love of the beautiful, the pursuit of truth, loyalty to duty, and the worship of divine goodness. But of all these values, love is the true guide to real insight.

 

So, the qualifiers for truth are: belief, recognition and pursuit; for beauty are: admire, appreciate and love; for goodness are: reverence and worship.

 

The word "worship" is being used here to mean honor and treasure. True worship is communion, the intimate and personal relationship of the Creator with his creature. This is the level we progress to through our capacity to comprehend truth, beauty and goodness which are manifestations of God's love. You can't have an intimate relationship with goodness unless it is personified, and that's precisely the growth of the concept of worship the revelators are attempting to describe in all three of those quotes.

 

I don't see any meaningful contradictions at all. Literalists will stumble over this however, bringing it down to the dead levels of rational logic, practical reason and uninspired intellect rather than allow it to waft up into the sublime level of supermind where spirit transcends and transforms our simple human understanding into new meanings and values of more real consequence.

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“And being a woman of lax morals, she was minded openly to become flirtatious (1613).”

 

“She was not an immoral woman wholly by choice (1613)."

 

"The apostles never ceased to be shocked by Jesus' willingness to talk with women, women of questionable character, even immoral women (1614)."

 

I'm taking these statements to mean that I shouldn't live with a man who is not my husband because when Nalda did it they called her immoral. But then I read this statement:

 

"It was very difficult for Jesus to teach his apostles that womenn, even so-called immoral women, have souls that can choose God as their father...(1614)"

 

So then I think maybe it is okay to live with a man who is not my husband because Nalda was only so-called immoral. But they didn't use the term "so-called" when they were talking about Nalda.

 

I can't explain the contradiction about the worship of goodness. But Jesus was not really calling his father a king. He was just trying to get away from the kingdom idea by saying God is the king of the kingdom figuratively. He was trying to transcend the king idea by telling us that we are not just subjects of a king, but sons. He never said God was a king.

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TUB uses the words "so called immoral" for a reason and that is because human morality is relative; it changes as the culture changes. Usually our understanding of morality is only relatively true as it is so often tied to conscience. Also, Jesus taught that true morality is determined by motive.

 

p1260:3 115:1.2 Conceptual frames of the universe are only relatively true; they are serviceable scaffolding which must eventually give way before the expansions of enlarging cosmic comprehension. The understandings of truth, beauty, and goodness, morality, ethics, duty, love, divinity, origin, existence, purpose, destiny, time, space, even Deity, are only relatively true.

 

p1005:2 92:2.6 Religion has at one time or another sanctioned all sorts of contrary and inconsistent behavior, has at some time approved of practically all that is now regarded as immoral or sinful. Conscience, untaught by experience and unaided by reason, never has been, and never can be, a safe and unerring guide to human conduct. Conscience is not a divine voice speaking to the human soul. It is merely the sum total of the moral and ethical content of the mores of any current stage of existence; it simply represents the humanly conceived ideal of reaction in any given set of circumstances.

 

p1585:3 140:10.5 While eating supper, Jesus had the talk with Matthew in which he explained that the morality of any act is determined by the individual's motive.

 

p2096:1 196:3.22 Morality is the essential pre-existent soil of personal God-consciousness, the personal realization of the Adjuster's inner presence, but such morality is not the source of religious experience and the resultant spiritual insight. The moral nature is superanimal but subspiritual. Morality is equivalent to the recognition of duty, the realization of the existence of right and wrong. The moral zone intervenes between the animal and the human types of mind as morontia functions between the material and the spiritual spheres of personality attainment.

 

p2096:1 196:3.22 Morality is the essential pre-existent soil of personal God-consciousness, the personal realization of the Adjuster's inner presence, but such morality is not the source of religious experience and the resultant spiritual insight. The moral nature is superanimal but subspiritual. Morality is equivalent to the recognition of duty, the realization of the existence of right and wrong. The moral zone intervenes between the animal and the human types of mind as morontia functions between the material and the spiritual spheres of personality attainment.

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Forum Friends,

"...I declare that the kingdom of heaven is the realization and acknowledgment of God's rule within the hearts of men. True, there is a King in this kingdom, and that King is my Father and your Father. We are indeed his loyal subjects, but far transcending that fact is the transforming truth that we are his sons..." p1588

 

...For these and other reasons, the Master thought best to designate the spiritual brotherhood of man as the kingdom of heaven and the spirit head of this brotherhood as the Father in heaven. Never did Jesus refer to his Father as a king. In his intimate talks with the apostles he always referred to himself as the Son of Man and as their elder brother. He depicted all his followers as servants of mankind and messengers of the gospel of the kingdom.... p1855

 

...Jesus never called the Father a king, and he very much regretted that the Jewish hope for a restored kingdom and John's proclamation of a coming kingdom made it necessary for him to denominate his proposed spiritual brotherhood the kingdom of heaven. With the one exception—the declaration that " God is spirit "—Jesus never referred to Deity in any manner other than in terms descriptive of his own personal relationship with the First Source and Center of Paradise.... p1856

 

I don't see a contradiction in the above quotes. There are several concepts addressed here. God as King and God as Father, God the King of kings and God a King.

 

Jesus labored to upstep the Jewish concept of God as King to God as Father and to reveal his kingly qualities as loving affection rather than stern judgment. Jesus admits that God reigns in the kingdom of heaven but as a Father. Therefore, the statement that he never referred to the Father as King is true because the Father notion is in contrast to the Old Testament Jewish notion of God as King. The statement "and that King is my Father" was meant to teach the difference between the two concepts of God: one evolutionary, the other revelatory; one having to do with earthly things, the other with heavenly things; one ruling a nation, the other ruling within the heart; one reigning over men, the other reigning over the entire universe; one imposing laws, the other liberating from laws. With that statement, Jesus was attempting to elevate the idea of kingship as a teaching technique. You have to read these quotes in complete context.

 

p1588:4 141:2.1 The night before they left Pella, Jesus gave the apostles some further instruction with regard to the new kingdom. Said the Master: "You have been taught to look for the coming of the kingdom of God, and now I come announcing that this long-looked-for kingdom is near at hand, even that it is already here and in our midst. In every kingdom there must be a king seated upon his throne and decreeing the laws of the realm. And so have you developed a concept of the kingdom of heaven as a glorified rule of the Jewish people over all the peoples of the earth with Messiah sitting on David's throne and from this place of miraculous power promulgating the laws of all the world. But, my children, you see not with the eye of faith, and you hear not with the understanding of the spirit. I declare that the kingdom of heaven is the realization and acknowledgment of God's rule within the hearts of men. True, there is a King in this kingdom, and that King is my Father and your Father. We are indeed his loyal subjects, but far transcending that fact is the transforming truth that we are his sons. In my life this truth is to become manifest to all. Our Father also sits upon a throne, but not one made with hands. The throne of the Infinite is the eternal dwelling place of the Father in the heaven of heavens; he fills all things and proclaims his laws to universes upon universes. And the Father also rules within the hearts of his children on earth by the spirit which he has sent to live within the souls of mortal men.

 

p1588:5 141:2.2 "When you are the subjects of this kingdom, you indeed are made to hear the law of the Universe Ruler; but when, because of the gospel of the kingdom which I have come to declare, you faith-discover yourselves as sons, you henceforth look not upon yourselves as law-subject creatures of an all-powerful king but as privileged sons of a loving and divine Father. Verily, verily, I say to you, when the Father's will is your law, you are hardly in the kingdom. But when the Father's will becomes truly your will, then are you in very truth in the kingdom because the kingdom has thereby become an established experience in you. When God's will is your law, you are noble slave subjects; but when you believe in this new gospel of divine sonship, my Father's will becomes your will, and you are elevated to the high position of the free children of God, liberated sons of the kingdom."

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Forum Friends,

 

Do you see conflict between these two quotes?

 

...On the mansion worlds the resurrected mortal survivors resume their lives just where they left off when overtaken by death. When you go from Urantia to the first mansion world, you will notice considerable change, but if you had come from a more normal and progressive sphere of time, you would hardly notice the difference except for the fact that you were in possession of a different body; the tabernacle of flesh and blood has been left behind on the world of nativity. P.532 - §7

 

...And when you thus awaken on the mansion worlds of Jerusem, you will be so changed, the spiritual transformation will be so great that, were it not for your Thought Adjuster and the destiny guardian, who so fully connect up your new life in the new worlds with your old life in the first world, you would at first have difficulty in connecting the new morontia consciousness with the reviving memory of your previous identity. Notwithstanding the continuity of personal selfhood, much of the mortal life would at first seem to be a vague and hazy dream. But time will clarify many mortal associations. P.1235 - §3

 

Comments invited, Rick

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Rick,

 

There is no contradiction. When reading the first paragraph, focus in on the phrase:

 

BUT
if you had come from a
more normal and progressive sphere
of time, you would hardly notice the difference

 

On normal and progressive spheres, probably ones further along in the process of light and life, folks would be living enlightened morontial lives while mortal and even perhaps progress past the fist mansion world after death. The second paragraph is talking about the poor backward, rebellion influenced mortals presently reading the text, us. The first paragraph agrees, however, that we slow pokes will see considerable change.

 

The paragraph before your second one explains:

112:5.20 The fact of repersonalization consists in the seizure of the encircuited morontia phase of the newly segregated cosmic mind by the awakening human self.

 

If there has been little of the morontia phase in the mind, there's little to be seized and little to identify with once awakened. We will notice considerable change from our adjutant, non-morontial minds but if we had come from a normal progressive planet, we would have considerable functioning morontial mind (soul), and not notice such a massive change. I'm sure there are enlightened persons alive today, those who have made their circles, those who function on morontial levels here on earth, who will hardly notice the difference in their minds' function after death.

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The first paragraph is written by Brilliant Evening Star (s) and the second is given to us by a Solitary Messenger. Brilliant Evening Stars are the personal corps of Gabriel and the Messengers are similarly the personal corps of the Conjoint Actor.

 

I find the two paragraphs remarkably similar.

 

As Bonita relates, the more experience the resurrecting personality has had interacting with the Nebadon Cosmic Mind variant of the Orvonton Cosmic Mind, the less "jolting" will be the dissimilarities encountered on re-awakening. The more your soul has been permitted by the controlling mind giving permission for the soul to assume directive powers, the more smoothly will go the translation.

 

Wouildn't it be nice to wake up in a lovely resurrection hall with thousands and thousands of people like you, take ten days off to catch up with old friends and family, then go off to language school?

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Bill,

 

I'm just wondering what the significance of pointing out the two authors is. Authorship is not something I regularly pay attention to because I've never understood why one author was chosen over another (except perhaps Part IV). Enlighten me.

Edited by Bonita

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You will recall Rick was mentioning possible inconsistencies or contradictions. I was pointing this out to remind us that the Papers are a symphonically orchestrated arrangement of personalities given assignments to reveal truth, enhance cosmic consciousness and improve spiritual discerment among the more interested and enlightened souls of Man.

 

All of these Revelators approach perfection in their work, most of the apparent mistakes in the book appear to be human ( at least to my circumscribed viewpoint.)

 

Given a close reading, differences in the minds and personalities of , say, a Solitary Messenger and a Universal Censor, are readily apparent. A Divine Couselor is the Chief and all the way down to Secondary Midwayers, (our elder cousins) the seperate and distinct flavors of spirit and personality lend ultimate credibility to a master work.

 

I have heard the anecdote that Dr. Sadler reserved judgement on the authenticity? veracity? reality of the Urantia papers until he read the paper "The Twelve Apostles" which provide a psychological precis of the mind and personalities of the men who first followed the Master.

 

I see different personalities repeating very similar themes in slightly dissimilar ways. I believe the paths of their illumination are coherent, stable and highly organized. Not contradictory.

 

 

Bill

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Sooo, you're both saying in essence: How much you immediately recall from this life in the flesh depends on how enlightened (circle advanced) you are at death, yes?

 

Therefore, we might assume, people who fuse off Urantia don't 'die', so they must be fully cognizant thru out the process?

 

TB&G2al, rw

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Therefore, we might assume, people who fuse off Urantia don't 'die', so they must be fully cognizant thru out the process?

 

I'm guessing that such individuals are so in tune with with their Adjusters when they fuse that their minds are nearly melded together. When an individual makes the first circle, Adjusters become self-acting and can go wherever and do whatever they like. A fusion would mean that the mortal soul and Adjuster mind are united so both would go wherever the Adjuster goes by Adjuster transit. The Adjuster never loses consciousness so I doubt the fused personality would either.

 

I'm just wondering how massively cool it would be to be sitting at worship one second and the next second standing directly in front of Michael and able to see him in all his glory. It would be stunning! No wonder you need 40 days to let it all sink in.

 

 

49:6.18 5. Mortals of the primary modified order of ascension. These mortals belong to the Adjuster-fused type of evolutionary life, but they are most often representative of the final phases of human development on an evolving world. These glorified beings are exempt from passing through the portals of death; they are submitted to Son seizure; they are translated from among the living and appear immediately in the presence of the Sovereign Son on the headquarters of the local universe.

49:6.19 These are the mortals who fuse with their Adjusters during mortal life, and such Adjuster-fused personalities traverse space freely before being clothed with morontia forms. These fused souls go by direct Adjuster transit to the resurrection halls of the higher morontia spheres, where they receive their initial morontia investiture just as do all other mortals arriving from the evolutionary worlds.

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40 Salvington days hopefully.

 

 

Chronology is reckoned, computed, and rectified by a special group of beings on Salvington. The standard day of Nebadon is equal to eighteen days and six hours of Urantia time, plus two and one-half minutes...P.372 - §2

 

That equals 730 Urantian days, two years.

Edited by Rick Warren

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If you will remember that God is the source of pure energy and of pure spirit, it will not be so difficult to perceive that his fragments would be both. It is a fact that the Adjusters traverse space over the instantaneous and universal gravity circuits of the Paradise Isle.

P.1182 - §7 That the Mystery Monitors are thus associated with the material circuits of the universe of universes is indeed puzzling. But it remains a fact that they flash throughout the entire grand universe over the material-gravity circuits. It is entirely possible that they may even penetrate the outer space levels; they certainly could follow the gravity presence of Paradise into these regions,

P.1183 - §0 and though my order of personality can traverse the mind circuits of the Conjoint Actor also beyond the confines of the grand universe, we have never been sure of detecting the presence of Adjusters in the uncharted regions of outer space.

P.1183 - §1 And yet, while the Adjusters utilize the material-gravity circuits, they are not subject thereto as is material creation. The Adjusters are fragments of the ancestor of gravity, not the consequentials of gravity; they have segmentized on a universe level of existence which is hypothetically antecedent to gravity appearance.

 

 

 

 

P.159 - §1 During your sojourn in Havona as a pilgrim of ascent, you will be allowed to visit freely among the worlds of the circuit of your assignment. You will also be permitted to go back to the planets of those circuits you have previously traversed. And all this is possible to those who sojourn on the circles of Havona without the necessity of being ensupernaphimed. The pilgrims of time are able to equip themselves to traverse "achieved" space but must depend on the ordained technique to negotiate "unachieved" space; a pilgrim cannot leave Havona nor go forward beyond his assigned circuit without the aid of a transport supernaphim.

 

 

P.544 - §1 3. Planetary Custodians. Each morontia world, from the mansion spheres up to the universe headquarters, is in the custody--as regards morontia affairs--of seventy guardians. They constitute the local planetary council of supreme morontia authority. This council grants material for morontia forms to all ascending creatures who land on the spheres and authorizes those changes in creature form which make it possible for an ascender to proceed to the succeeding sphere. After the mansion worlds have been traversed, you will translate from one phase of morontia life to another without having to surrender consciousness. Unconsciousness attends only the earlier metamorphoses and the later transitions from one universe to another and from Havona to Paradise.

 

 

 

DO YOU TRAVERSE SPACE FREELY AFTER FUSION?

 

 

P.324 - §3 These beings are the mobile subordinates of the Supreme Power Centers. The physical controllers are endowed with capabilities of individuality metamorphosis of such a nature that they can engage in a remarkable variety of autotransport, being able to traverse local space at velocities approaching the flight of Solitary Messengers. But like all other space traversers they require the assistance of both their fellows and certain other types of beings in overcoming the action of gravity and the resistance of inertia in departing from a material sphere.

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Sooo, you're both saying in essence: How much you immediately recall from this life in the flesh depends on how enlightened (circle advanced) you are at death, yes?

 

Hi Rick, all,

 

In the Paper on Personality Survival I found this:

 

And when you thus awaken on the mansion worlds of Jerusem, you will be so changed, the spiritual transformation will be so great that, were it not for your Thought Adjuster and the destiny guardian, who so fully connect up your new life in the new worlds with your old life in the first world, you would at first have difficulty in connecting the new morontia consciousness with the reviving memory of your previous identity. Notwithstanding the continuity of personal selfhood, much of the mortal life would at first seem to be a vague and hazy dream. But time will clarify many mortal associations.

 

The Thought Adjuster will recall and rehearse for you only those memories and experiences which are a part of, and essential to, your universe career. If the Adjuster has been a partner in the evolution of aught in the human mind, then will these worth-while experiences survive in the eternal consciousness of the Adjuster. But much of your past life and its memories, having neither spiritual meaning nor morontia value, will perish with the material brain; much of material experience will pass away as onetime scaffolding which, having bridged you over to the morontia level, no longer serves a purpose in the universe. But personality and the relationships between personalities are never scaffolding; mortal memory of personality relationships has cosmic value and will persist. On the mansion worlds you will know and be known, and more, you will remember, and be remembered by, your onetime associates in the short but intriguing life on Urantia.
(1235)

 

Intriguing, is it not?

 

Meredith

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If your mind is centered on God all the time and you are doing His will all the time, then just about everything you do or think will be real and have survival value. Unfortunately, due to the inconstancy of human existence, we have moments of clarity with direct connection to the illumination of God's will and a good idea of the path we should be on and longer periods of discontinuity with the uncertainties and difficulties that result from being out of touch, lost, without a clue as to how we got where we are, (at least this is my experience.)

 

For a true child of the Most High, for a morontia ascender, the translation from here to Mansonia 1 should not be too abrupt, thrilling, YES, strange, I think not.

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Hi Rick, all,

 

In the Paper on Personality Survival I found this:

 

And when you thus awaken on the mansion worlds of Jerusem, you will be so changed, the spiritual transformation will be so great that, were it not for your Thought Adjuster and the destiny guardian, who so fully connect up your new life in the new worlds with your old life in the first world, you would at first have difficulty in connecting the new morontia consciousness with the reviving memory of your previous identity. Notwithstanding the continuity of personal selfhood, much of the mortal life would at first seem to be a vague and hazy dream. But time will clarify many mortal associations.

 

The Thought Adjuster will recall and rehearse for you only those memories and experiences which are a part of, and essential to, your universe career. If the Adjuster has been a partner in the evolution of aught in the human mind, then will these worth-while experiences survive in the eternal consciousness of the Adjuster. But much of your past life and its memories, having neither spiritual meaning nor morontia value, will perish with the material brain; much of material experience will pass away as onetime scaffolding which, having bridged you over to the morontia level, no longer serves a purpose in the universe. But personality and the relationships between personalities are never scaffolding; mortal memory of personality relationships has cosmic value and will persist. On the mansion worlds you will know and be known, and more, you will remember, and be remembered by, your onetime associates in the short but intriguing life on Urantia.
(1235)

 

Intriguing, is it not?

 

Meredith

 

 

Yes Meredith!

 

It appears the only things of enduring value to our Gods are values, living in their children. The rest is apparatus for achieving, growing and sustaining these divine, personal, living values.

 

 

...Thus build up for yourself and in yourself reserve galleries of beauty, goodness, and artistic grandeur. p.1779

 

 

Rick

Edited by Rick Warren

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If your mind is centered on God all the time and you are doing His will all the time, then just about everything you do or think will be real and have survival value.

 

This is what Jesus meant when he said:

 

p1945:04 If you will maintain this living spiritual connection with me, you will bear abundant fruit. If you abide in me and my words live in you, you will be able to commune freely with me, and then can my living spirit so infuse you that you may ask whatsoever my spirit wills and do all this with the assurance that the Father will grant us our petition.

 

If your life is a perpetual prayer, in constant communion with him, it becomes filled with truth, beauty and goodness. It's not that life becomes a utopian dream where every desire is fulfilled, that is Disney. Life is still rich and full of challenges, but one's attitude changes and one's ability to see truth, beauty and goodness, or its potential, even in the unlovely, is enhanced dramatically. And the power to overcome defeat, doubt, disappointment and disillusionment is immediately available and on tap at all times.

 

Unfortunately, due to the inconstancy of human existence, we have moments of clarity with direct connection to the illumination of God's will and a good idea of the path we should be on and longer periods of discontinuity with the uncertainties and difficulties that result from being out of touch, lost, without a clue as to how we got where we are, (at least this is my experience.)

 

And this reminds me of yet another quote:

 

p1739 Do not become discouraged by the discovery that you are human. Human nature may tend toward evil, but it is not inherently sinful. Be not downcast by your failure wholly to forget some of your regrettable experiences. The mistakes which you fail to forget in time will be forgotten in eternity. Lighten your burdens of soul by speedily acquiring a long-distance view of your destiny, a universe expansion of your career.

 

Being out of touch is merely momentary disloyalty to your single-most best friend; it's allowing your mind to be distracted and go off course chasing self-interest like an untrained puppy. Perpetual prayer keeps your mind on a heavenly leash, but it is a lax and loving one.

 

p2065:8 194:3.20 Prayer does not move the divine heart to liberality of bestowal, but it does so often dig out larger and deeper channels wherein the divine bestowals may flow to the hearts and souls of those who thus remember to maintain unbroken communion with their Maker through sincere prayer and true worship.

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Regarding Apparent Contradictions in the UB: This may have been discussed a while back, before I joined in but bear with me as I bring this point up and see what answer ideas are out there in reponse,

 

Part I ends on page 354 with the last sentence ending with "...in the year A.D. 1934."

Part II ends on page 648 with the last sentence ending with "...in the year 1934 of Urantia time."

Part III ends on page 1319 with the last sentence ending with "...in the year A.D. 1935 of Urantia time."

Part IV ends on page 2097 with No Date

 

Notice the inconsistent ways of stating the years. re the first 3 Parts . first A.D. and year but no refernce to Urantia time...then secondly no A.D. year with a refernce to Urantia time...then thirdly A.D. year and Urantia time.

Then Part IV No date at all

When one considers the fact that Dr. William Sadler had from around 1940 up to the time of the first printing in 1955 to clarify the dates noted above and deal with the final completion date at the end. point: if it was important to put dates in..then why not be consistent with this.

 

Aside from these dates there is an interesting fact though: The UB begins with the first sentence containing Father and God in it and the very last sentence on page 2097 also contains God and Father.

 

You'll notice that I don't use the quotations feature. The reason being that I believe that getting too wrapped up in the details can take away ones focus from the essence of Truth, Beauty and Goodness. It is like studying Law and Rule of Law..like our present system is doing and yet completely missing the point of finding Justice . So it is with delving really deep into the exact wording of the UB material. Sometimes it is wise to step back and have an overview as to just what the core essence is that is being conveyed to us humans.

What is more important: having more and more people read the UB or is it perhaps better to become more and more connected with our Divine Thought Adjusters and then allow them to guide our thoughts, feelings and actions as we interact with our fellow man . In my 38 years of UB exposure, I have discovered that many people simply do not resonate with the UB. Does that mean that they are somehow disenfranchised from getting united with their own TA. NO it does not. It simply means that their minds and hearts are focused to find The Father in a different fashion.

My wife of 45 years does not resonate with the UB. Never has...probably never will. Am I afraid that she is not evolving and expanding spiritually and getting closer to The Father. No Way. In a lot of ways she is more aware and advanced than I am. We compliment each other as two differnt halves of a whole.

Anyways back to the subject of apparent contradictions; yes, the UB has it's full share of them. The skeptics have found their share of them. Does that destroy the validityof the essence of the UB material ? No. It just shows that one should not get 100% wrapped up with the details.

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Hi menno,

 

Thanks for your thoughts. One way we might see the Urantia papers serving this world is: as a "frame of reference", a framework of concepts appropriate for our time. For those of us discovering our Father and our selves, such a "universe frame" provides a vocabulary of concept sufficient to allow us to share insights and experiences that were once considered "too deep for words".

 

Sometimes it is wise to step back and have an overview as to just what the core essence is that is being conveyed to us humans.

Indeed!

Nigel

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Hi All members and visitors;

 

Further to my comment/posting on July 31, 2009 regarding the dates noted at the end of Part I , II , and III and my question as to why there was no date at the end of Part IV.

After reading the last sentence on page 866 of the UB ; "...even as the storey of the life and teachings of Jesus has been given by the midwayers of Urantia to their cousins in the flesh."

 

It would appear that Part IV had been completed before Part III was completed... note that there were still 453 pages of information from page 866 to page 1319 being downloaded before Part IV was to "tag on" I say tag on because of the storey that the Celestial Beings were not all in agreement as to whether or not there should be a Part IV included.

 

Personally I am glad that it was included because Part IV along with Part III are my favorite parts of the UB. They fit together quite well.

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Dear Menno,

 

Your idea of the Urantia United Midwayers contribution to the Fifth Epochal Revelation possibly being finished before the contributions made by the Uversa Revelator Corps resonates with my own thinking. What appears to me to have happened was that the crew of extraplanetary Revelators were authorized to indict the first three sections as an assignment recieved from the Uversa Ancients of Days on the Superuniverse capitol before departure for Urantia.

 

Undoubtedly our Midwayers were eager to participate in telling their part of the "Greatest Story Ever Told."Indeed, they do eventually state the Truth (on 2090-4) that "One of the most important things in human living is to find out what Jesus believed, to discover his ideals, and to strive for the achievement of his exalted life purpose. Of all human knowledge, that which is of greatest value is to know the religious life of Jesus and how he lived it. After all, doesn't it seem that the most important ingredient in a revelation of Truth to this troubled planet would be the inclusion of the life of our Creator Son? something the Midwayers were intimately familiar with and had the opportunity to reflect upon and distill over the course of two millennia? And isn't it likely that the three Ancients of Days, whose collective wisdom reflects that of the Paradise Trinity (217-4), would foresee Michael's revelation of God to man and man to God would be the focus of the whole effort?

 

It is entirely possible, I would say probable, that as soon as ABC the First and 123 the First learned of the upcoming book revelation that they were already prepared with much, much more than a mere outline of what was to become Part IV. Nevertheless, it appears from a critical reading that the last few passages in Part III seem to resemble a summation.

 

 

What happened was familiar to students of Urantia history as set forth in other parts of the book.

 

PART IV - THE LIFE AND TEACHINGS OF JESUS - P.1321

This group of papers was sponsored by a commission of twelve Urantia midwayers acting under the supervision of a Melchizedek revelatory director. The basis of this narrative was supplied by a secondary midwayer who was onetime assigned to the superhuman watchcare of the Apostle Andrew.

 

The Melchizedeks "stepped up" just as they did when nurturing the dying "light of life" in preparation for the announced choice of Urantia as the site of the terminal bestowal of Michael in the likeness of the seven orders of his created universe children. A commission of twelve midwayers under the direction of Mantutia Melchizedek undertook the difficult task of translating Jesus' sayings and acts in the language of the twentieth century.

 

I have heard (by way of anecdote) that there was great discussion, back and forth, between the Angels of the Churches and the Angels of Progress as to how certain episodes of Jesus' life and some of the statements he made would or could be translated into modern phraseology. This may have been part of the source of some of the apparent contentions that are implied.

 

123 the First (I believe) states the Midwayer Commission's approach to solving this "tricky" situation to the satisfaction of the Superaphic wisdom of the Paradise Supernaphim of the Primary Order who head up these two aforementioned angelic groups.

 

P.1343 - §1 [Acknowledgment: In carrying out my commission to restate the teachings and retell the doings of Jesus of Nazareth, I have drawn freely upon all sources of record and planetary information. My ruling motive has been to prepare a record which will not only be enlightening to the generation of men now living, but which may also be helpful to all future generations. From the vast store of information made available to me, I have chosen that which is best suited to the accomplishment of this purpose. As far as possible I have derived my information from purely human sources. Only when such sources failed, have I resorted to those records which are superhuman. When ideas and concepts of Jesus' life and teachings have been acceptably expressed by a human mind, I invariably gave preference to such apparently human thought patterns. Although I have sought to adjust the verbal expression the better to conform to our concept of the real meaning and the true import of the Master's life and teachings, as far as possible, I have adhered to the actual human concept and thought pattern in all my narratives. I well know that those concepts which have had origin in the human mind will prove more acceptable and helpful to all other human minds. When unable to find the necessary concepts in the human records or in human expressions, I have next resorted to the memory resources of my own order of earth creatures, the midwayers. And when that secondary source of information proved inadequate, I have unhesitatingly resorted to the superplanetary sources of information.

 

P.1343 - §2 The memoranda which I have collected, and from which I have prepared this narrative of the life and teachings of Jesus--aside from the memory of the record of the Apostle Andrew--embrace thought gems and superior concepts of Jesus' teachings assembled from more than two thousand human beings who have lived on earth from the days of Jesus down to the time of the inditing of these revelations, more correctly restatements. The revelatory permission has been utilized only when the human record and human concepts failed to supply an adequate thought pattern. My revelatory commission forbade me to resort to extrahuman sources of either information or expression until such a time as I could testify that I had failed in my efforts to find the required conceptual expression in purely human sources.

P.1343 - §3 While I, with the collaboration of my eleven associate fellow midwayers and under the supervision of the Melchizedek of record, have portrayed this narrative in accordance with my concept of its effective arrangement and in response to my choice of immediate expression, nevertheless, the majority of the ideas and even some of the effective expressions which I have thus utilized had their origin in the minds of the men of many races who have lived on earth during the intervening generations, right on down to those who are still alive at the time of this undertaking. In many ways I have served more as a collector and editor than as an original narrator. I have unhesitatingly appropriated those ideas and concepts, preferably human, which would enable me to create the most effective portraiture of Jesus' life, and which would qualify me to restate his matchless teachings in the most strikingly helpful and universally uplifting phraseology. In behalf of the Brotherhood of the United Midwayers of Urantia, I most gratefully acknowledge our indebtedness to all sources of record and concept which have been hereinafter utilized in the further elaboration of our restatement of Jesus' life on earth.]

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Dear Bill;

 

 

Thank You. I really appreciate your remarks and quotes on this matter.

 

You mention that 123 the First as being involved with the Commission of Twelve Midwayers involved with Part IV narrative of the Life of Jesus

 

Question:. Do you believe that 123 the First was involved with this Commission , thereby being temporarily absent from his seat on the board of Four and Twenty Counselors ?

 

And regarding your comment before the the last three quotes; " 123 the First (I believe) states the Midwayer Commission's approach...."

 

I always took it that those three paragraphs were spoken by the secondary midwayer assigned to Andrew..as per the first line in the second paragraph.

 

I welcome your help if I have been misreading or misunderstanding this.

 

Before I end this post there is something else which I would like to ask...not a big thing but while we are here dsicussing the midwayers; Have you ever wondered why it was the Secondary Midwayer assigned to Andrew, who provided the "basis" for the narrative of the Life of Jesus; instead of one of the two midwayers assigned to Jesus ( a secondary midwayer and a primary midwayer)

 

Thanks

Menno

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Dear Menno,

 

Thank you for your attention to the details. I will answer your post by interlacing my answers into your post for ease of comprehension. (my answers in red) (Urantia Book quotes in blue)

 

 

 

 

Dear Bill;

 

 

Thank You. I really appreciate your remarks and quotes on this matter.

 

You mention that 123 the First as being involved with the Commission of Twelve Midwayers involved with Part IV narrative of the Life of Jesus

 

After re-reading my post, i am unable to find any such attribution

 

 

 

Question:. Do you believe that 123 the First was involved with this Commission , thereby being temporarily absent from his seat on the board of Four and Twenty Counselors ?

 

P.866 - §4 1-2-3 the first, the eldest of the primary order, was released from immediate planetary duties shortly after Pentecost

 

My attribution was in error here and i stand corrected. Thank You![/color]

 

 

 

And regarding your comment before the the last three quotes; " 123 the First (I believe) states the Midwayer Commission's approach...."

 

I always took it that those three paragraphs were spoken by the secondary midwayer assigned to Andrew..as per the first line in the second paragraph.

 

If you read the text of the author who gave this acknowledgemet (on 1343-1) closely, you will perceive that this author refers to the same secondary midwayer (assisgned to the watchcare of the Apostle Andrew):

 

P.1343 - §2 The memoranda which I have collected, and from which I have prepared this narrative of the life and teachings of Jesus--aside from the memory of the record of the Apostle Andrew--

 

I welcome your help if I have been misreading or misunderstanding this.

 

 

 

Menno, I have included a quote from a recent post you made on this thread at the bottom of this page. I am truly thankful you corrected my error so quickly for we don't want to let anything less than the whole, "unvarnished" truth to pass here. My aim was to answer your questions about how the Fourth Part is obviously an addition and though certainly a triumphant finale to the symphonic composition of the previous three "movements," there is evidence of a difference. I was trying to examine the possible factors affecting the origin and genesis of Part IV.

 

The contention between the angelic corps and the skillfull manner in which the author of the "Acknowledgement" soothed the contention seems to be a more fertile ground for discussion than my making a factual error. Nevertheless,please ALWAYS correct me when i stray from the truth (or fact).

 

Before I end this post there is something else which I would like to ask...not a big thing but while we are here dsicussing the midwayers; Have you ever wondered why it was the Secondary Midwayer assigned to Andrew, who provided the "basis" for the narrative of the Life of Jesus; instead of one of the two midwayers assigned to Jesus ( a secondary midwayer and a primary midwayer)

 

No, I really haven't, maybe he/she had a better memory or clearer vision. There is differential attainment among all evolutionary will creatures.

 

Bill

 

Thanks

Menno

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You'll notice that I don't use the quotations feature. The reason being that I believe that getting too wrapped up in the details can take away ones focus from the essence of Truth, Beauty and Goodness. It is like studying Law and Rule of Law..like our present system is doing and yet completely missing the point of finding Justice . So it is with delving really deep into the exact wording of the UB material. Sometimes it is wise to step back and have an overview as to just what the core essence is that is being conveyed to us humans.

 

Anyways back to the subject of apparent contradictions; yes, the UB has it's full share of them. The skeptics have found their share of them. Does that destroy the validityof the essence of the UB material ? No. It just shows that one should not get 100% wrapped up with the details.

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Dear Menno,

 

Thank you for your attention to the details. I will answer your post by interlacing my answers into your post for ease of comprehension. (my answers in red) (Urantia Book quotes in blue)

 

 

 

 

Dear Bill;

 

 

Thank You. I really appreciate your remarks and quotes on this matter.

 

You mention that 123 the First as being involved with the Commission of Twelve Midwayers involved with Part IV narrative of the Life of Jesus

 

After re-reading my post, i am unable to find any such attribution

 

 

 

Question:. Do you believe that 123 the First was involved with this Commission , thereby being temporarily absent from his seat on the board of Four and Twenty Counselors ?

 

P.866 - §4 1-2-3 the first, the eldest of the primary order, was released from immediate planetary duties shortly after Pentecost

 

My attribution was in error here and i stand corrected. Thank You![/color]

 

 

 

And regarding your comment before the the last three quotes; " 123 the First (I believe) states the Midwayer Commission's approach...."

 

I always took it that those three paragraphs were spoken by the secondary midwayer assigned to Andrew..as per the first line in the second paragraph.

 

If you read the text of the author who gave this acknowledgemet (on 1343-1) closely, you will perceive that this author refers to the same secondary midwayer (assisgned to the watchcare of the Apostle Andrew):

 

P.1343 - §2 The memoranda which I have collected, and from which I have prepared this narrative of the life and teachings of Jesus--aside from the memory of the record of the Apostle Andrew--

 

I welcome your help if I have been misreading or misunderstanding this.

 

 

 

Menno, I have included a quote from a recent post you made on this thread at the bottom of this page. I am truly thankful you corrected my error so quickly for we don't want to let anything less than the whole, "unvarnished" truth to pass here. My aim was to answer your questions about how the Fourth Part is obviously an addition and though certainly a triumphant finale to the symphonic composition of the previous three "movements," there is evidence of a difference. I was trying to examine the possible factors affecting the origin and genesis of Part IV.

 

The contention between the angelic corps and the skillfull manner in which the author of the "Acknowledgement" soothed the contention seems to be a more fertile ground for discussion than my making a factual error. Nevertheless,please ALWAYS correct me when i stray from the truth (or fact).

 

Before I end this post there is something else which I would like to ask...not a big thing but while we are here dsicussing the midwayers; Have you ever wondered why it was the Secondary Midwayer assigned to Andrew, who provided the "basis" for the narrative of the Life of Jesus; instead of one of the two midwayers assigned to Jesus ( a secondary midwayer and a primary midwayer)

 

No, I really haven't, maybe he/she had a better memory or clearer vision. There is differential attainment among all evolutionary will creatures.

 

Bill

 

Thanks

Menno

 

 

Dear Bill;

 

Thank you for all of your help.

Sorry for bothering you once more but before I leave this thread concerning "Apparent Contradictions" I was wondering if you could give me your take on the following mystery;

 

On page 1257 5th para (About the reserve Corps of Destiny) It states " This combined corps now consists of 962 persons."

and then on page 1258 (still on the subject of Reserve Corps of Destiny) 5th para in brackets it states ( This cosmic reserve corps of universe - conscious citizens on Urantia now numbers over one thousand mortals...........)

 

The Paper containg the above information was presented by the Chief of Seraphim stationed on Urantia.

 

What is your take regarding these two different numbers given for the same group....within a span of 5 paragraphs ?

 

Was the information on page 1257 valid in 1935 and did the bracketed information arrive just before the papers were type set in 1941 ? Or what is your take on this.

 

Thanks

Menno

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