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Alina

The Concept of God

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Scott, :)

 

Yes, is very sad.

For me, materialism (whether of the kind that is) though unintended, has had the effect of putting people of spirituality, of true religion. And with that many have forgotten God. If we add to this that established religions remained planted, instead of helping people grow in their spiritual evolution, the outlook is not cheerful, certainly. By contrast, some have become or are declared atheists ...

 

Not that anyone believes in God. in a way, but I have been relegated to a lower level within the priorities of its existence. The results are plain to see, and nobody seems to me that it could deny, unless the materialist, of course.

 

 

(1123.4) 102:4.4 The element of error present in human religious experience is directly proportional to the content of materialism which contaminates the spiritual concept of the Universal Father. Man’s prespirit progression in the universe consists in the experience of divesting himself of these erroneous ideas of the nature of God and of the reality of pure and true spirit. Deity is more than spirit, but the spiritual approach is the only one possible to ascending man.

 

(1125.4) 102:6.9 The facts of evolution must not be arrayed against the truth of the reality of the certainty of the spiritual experience of the religious living of the God-knowing mortal. Intelligent men should cease to reason like children and should attempt to use the consistent logic of adulthood, logic which tolerates the concept of truth alongside the observation of fact. Scientific materialism has gone bankrupt when it persists, in the face of each recurring universe phenomenon, in refunding its current objections by referring what is admittedly higher back into that which is admittedly lower. Consistency demands the recognition of the activities of a purposive Creator.

 

(1125.5) 102:6.10 Organic evolution is a fact; purposive or progressive evolution is a truth which makes consistent the otherwise contradictory phenomena of the ever-ascending achievements of evolution. The higher any scientist progresses in his chosen science, the more will he abandon the theories of materialistic fact in favor of the cosmic truth of the dominance of the Supreme Mind. Materialism cheapens human life; the gospel of Jesus tremendously enhances and supernally exalts every mortal. Mortal existence must be visualized as consisting in the intriguing and fascinating experience of the realization of the reality of the meeting of the human upreach and the divine and saving downreach.

Edited by Alina
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Conceptualize God?

 

Despite the title of this topic and human ideas, can not really formulate concepts about Universal Father because it is much more... than that.

Perhaps some of you thought when I started the topic, but in the meantime some of that exists in our mind, that is, wanting to conceptualize God, it is impossible, but it is a way among many others, to start talking about our Father, from the low point of our perception and discernment.

(should have written this by starting the topic!) because:

 

 

(50.4) 3:4.6 Mortal man cannot possibly know the infinitude of the heavenly Father. Finite mind cannot think through such an absolute truth or fact. But this same finite human being can actually feel — literally experience — the full and undiminished impact of such an infinite Father’s LOVE. Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return.

 

I am struck by one quote that says that God is "the noblest work of man." :o

Wouuu ... We believe too big, but it is; another paragraph also says that the man made God in his image and likeness (non-text) also is ridiculous but also true, sometimes this idea which comes from far in the time, it is quite common, although amazing,

 

 

(23.4) 1:2.1 God is primal reality in the spirit world; God is the source of truth in the mind spheres; God overshadows all throughout the material realms. To all created intelligences God is a personality, and to the universe of universes he is the First Source and Center of eternal reality. God is neither manlike nor machinelike. The First Father is universal spirit, eternal truth, infinite reality, and father personality.

 

(23.5) 1:2.2 The eternal God is infinitely more than reality idealized or the universe personalized. God is not simply the supreme desire of man, the mortal quest objectified. Neither is God merely a concept, the power-potential of righteousness. The Universal Father is not a synonym for nature, neither is he natural law personified. God is a transcendent reality, not merely man’s traditional concept of supreme values. God is not a psychological focalization of spiritual meanings, neither is he “the noblest work of man.” God may be any or all of these concepts in the minds of men, but he is more. He is a saving person and a loving Father to all who enjoy spiritual peace on earth, and who crave to experience personality survival in death.

 

(24.1) 1:2.3 The actuality of the existence of God is demonstrated in human experience by the indwelling of the divine presence, the spirit Monitor sent from Paradise to live in the mortal mind of man and there to assist in evolving the immortal soul of eternal survival. The presence of this divine Adjuster in the human mind is disclosed by three experiential phenomena:

1.
The intellectual capacity for knowing God — God-consciousness.

 

2.
The spiritual urge to find God — God-seeking.

 

3.
The personality craving to be like God — the wholehearted desire to do the Father’s will.

 

 

(24.5) 1:2.7 The existence of God can never be proved by scientific experiment or by the pure reason of logical deduction. God can be realized only in the realms of human experience; nevertheless, the true concept of the reality of God is reasonable to logic, plausible to philosophy, essential to religion, and indispensable to any hope of personality survival.

 

(24.6) 1:2.8 Those who know God have experienced the fact of his presence; such God-knowing mortals hold in their personal experience the only positive proof of the existence of the living God which one human being can offer to another. The existence of God is utterly beyond all possibility of demonstration except for the contact between the God-consciousness of the human mind and the God-presence of the Thought Adjuster that indwells the mortal intellect and is bestowed upon man as the free gift of the Universal Father.

 

*******

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I truly do not get what you mean by the word concept.

 

Can you explain it without baiting-and-switching the the conversation to talking about comprehension. i.e. don't use the word comprehend at all to explain what you mean by concept - because comprehension and conceptualization (the process of forming concepts) are not merely two different words for referencing the same meaning.

 

What exactly do you mean by the word concept - such that conceptualizing (forming a concept) supposedly cannot be done with regard to God?

Edited by Absonite

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I truly do not get what you mean by the word concept.

 

Can you explain it without baiting-and-switching the the conversation to talking about comprehension. i.e. don't use the word comprehend at all to explain what you mean by concept - because comprehension and conceptualization (the process of forming concepts) are not merely two different words for referencing the same meaning.

 

What exactly do you mean by the word concept - such that conceptualizing (forming a concept) supposedly cannot be done with regard to God?

 

 

To form a concept or concepts of, and especially to interpret in a conceptual way:

"Efforts to Conceptualize the history and structure of the universe were already running into trouble because . . . the universe was not as uniform as had been assumed" (John Noble Wilford).

 

***

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Let me put it this way:

 

The UB seems to me to offer concepts. So saying that one cannot form concepts about God seems to me to negate the essential purpose of what the UB offers. In fact, if one cannot form concepts about God, then what's the point of the UB?

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Absonite, The answer is my today post #52 ... but please read and think...

God is more, much more than a simple, merely human concept! This does not mean that we do not use "concepts" to try to understand, but will always be too partial ... more, even when it comes to God.

 

I do not know why you want write to me if UB. is full of concepts ... or you do not know ...

 

Foreword

 

 

 

Acknowledgment

 

(16.8) 0:12.11 In formulating the succeeding presentations having to do with the portrayal of the character of the Universal Father and the nature of his Paradise associates, together with an attempted description of the perfect central universe and the encircling seven superuniverses, we are to be guided by the mandate of the superuniverse rulers which directs that we shall, in all our efforts to reveal truth and co-ordinate essential knowledge, give preference to the highest existing human concepts pertaining to the subjects to be presented. We may resort to pure revelation only when the concept of presentation has had no adequate previous expression by the human mind.

 

(17.1) 0:12.12 Successive planetary revelations of divine truth invariably embrace the highest existing concepts of spiritual values as a part of the new and enhanced co-ordination of planetary knowledge. Accordingly, in making these presentations about God and his universe associates, we have selected as the basis of these papers more than one thousand human concepts representing the highest and most advanced planetary knowledge of spiritual values and universe meanings. Wherein these human concepts, assembled from the God-knowing mortals of the past and the present, are inadequate to portray the truth as we are directed to reveal it, we will unhesitatingly supplement them, for this purpose drawing upon our own superior knowledge of the reality and divinity of the Paradise Deities and their transcendent residential universe.

 

(17.2) 0:12.13 We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind. But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to grasp the reality of spiritual values and to comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth contributory to the enhancement of the ever-progressing reality of personal religious experience — God-consciousness.

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Whatever is conceptualized is always more than the concept.

The concept is just a symbol - a mental representation - for whatever is symbolized.

 

Sure, God can be conceptualized.

And, sure, God is more than a concept.

 

Just as a meal is more than what's written on the menu, or a territory is more than what's iconographed on a map.

 

But that doesn't mean for one minute that menus cannot be written, maps cannot be made, and concepts about God cannot be formulated.

Edited by Absonite
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Absonite...if I may suggest, I doubt there is much disagreement between your view and Alina's, except vernacular. Alina is daring in her caring in her contributions here as a second language and it helps to focus on her relevant and descriptive quotes she always provides to help us contextualize her thoughts and words. Next, it would amaze you, perhaps, if you would try reconstructing or rearanging verbs, nouns, adjectives, etc. and see how meanings can be inflected or misconstrued. I think her chosen text speaks certainly enough and does not deny everyones' ability to conceive the Father...albeit inadequately, incompletely, falsely, etc. but not as He is. Just my take on this. I can assure you Alina has an ever growing concept of Father and shares it here freely.

 

B)

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I hope you do. For I meant no criticism and I really enjoy your perspectives and am enriched by your posts here on many topics (including this one). Your depth of knowledge and patient presentations are of great value and you tackle complexities that wither my mind to muteness. And yet my concepts grow and conceptualizations multiply thereby. My support of Alina is no lack of support for you, your opinions in this particular, or your voice. Should have said so above. My apologies. There is a bridge at every divide and I am certain of the soundness of this one. Peace Brother.

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Hello and thanks... Bradly.

 

The bridge, first we build, we must have a genuine desire to do so, the strength of true love.

The Spirit of the Father in our inner self is who guides us, Because the Father is Love, but First is Universal Spirit, eternal Truth, infinite Reality, and Personality.

 

 

 

(1137.3) 103:6.13 Revelation is evolutionary man’s only hope of bridging the morontia gulf. Faith and reason, unaided by mota, cannot conceive and construct a logical universe. Without the insight of mota, mortal man cannot discern goodness, love, and truth in the phenomena of the material world.

 

 

Greetings,

 

Alina

***

Edited by Alina
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Alina, I've been following this topic and I still question what is a concept of our being godlike in contradistinction to diety-likeness; thus far have seen nothing in dialouge addressing this. Do you have your own concept or do you know where references or inferences are in the UB?

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Alina, I've been following this topic and I still question what is a concept of our being godlike in contradistinction to diety-likeness; thus far have seen nothing in dialouge addressing this. Do you have your own concept or do you know where references or inferences are in the UB?

 

Hello Raymond!

 

I do not understand exactly you question Raymond, but our being divine, can not be in cotradistinction with Deity, I think that is the Eternal Son who through his spiritual gravity attracts to itself all personalities and spiritual realities.

 

That answer your question, or something else?

 

 

 

 

 

(4.7) 0:2.13 2. God the Son — Co-ordinate Creator, Spirit Controller, and Spiritual Administrator. The Eternal Son, the Second Person of Deity.

 

 

Greetings!

 

Alina

***

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The measure of the spiritual capacity of the evolving soul is your faith in truth and your love for man, but the measure of your human strength of character is your ability to resist the holding of grudges and your capacity to withstand brooding in the face of deep sorrow. Defeat is the true mirror in which you may honestly view your real self. ~ The Urantia Book, (156:5.17)

 

Thought I would pull a Van and try and add some love to the conversation.

Edited by -Scott-
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Alina, I was thinking in the realm of the totality that is discerned by deity-BEING; the realm of totality discerned by a human-BEING - then the personalization of deity-BEING - selfhood; and the personalization of human-BEING - selfhood. The term God always refers to the personal - no? We can become personal - godlike, then in what way do we become deity-like in reference to the totality of our reality. Looking for descriptive references here. I'm not sure how else to word this?

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Alina, I was thinking in the realm of the totality that is discerned by deity-BEING; the realm of totality discerned by a human-BEING - then the personalization of deity-BEING - selfhood; and the personalization of human-BEING - selfhood. The term God always refers to the personal - no? We can become personal - godlike, then in what way do we become deity-like in reference to the totality of our reality. Looking for descriptive references here. I'm not sure how else to word this?

 

Let's see if this what you mean, But the realm of the whole (totality) can not be perceived by a human ...

 

(

1232.3) 112:5.2 That which comes from the Father is like the Father eternal, and this is just as true of personality, which God gives by his own freewill choice, as it is of the divine Thought Adjuster, an actual fragment of God. Man’s personality is eternal but with regard to identity a conditioned eternal reality. Having appeared in response to the Father’s will, personality will attain Deity destiny, but man must choose whether or not he will be present at the attainment of such destiny. In default of such choice, personality attains experiential Deity directly, becoming a part of the Supreme Being. The cycle is foreordained, but man’s participation therein is optional, personal, and experiential.

 

Alina

***

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the realm of totality discerned by a human-BEING

 

Individuals do not have relation to one each other except through the individuality of the "whole" the whole=totality reality. This inviduality of the total/whole is downstepped as "total planet" "total universe" etc. The individuality of the whole is always there to be discovered on all levels of "total" because the Supreme is the god of imminence.

 

1 - (10:7.2) As things appear to the mortal on the finite level, the Paradise Trinity, like the Supreme Being, is concerned only with the total—total planet, total universe, total superuniverse, total grand universe. This totality attitude exists because the Trinity is the total of Deity and for many other reasons.

 

On our planet IMO we can experience this totality deity/ Individuality of the total through the Supreme Spirit which pervades finite reality.

 

8:9.4.The grand universe is mechanism as well as organism, mechanical and living—a living mechanism activated by a Supreme Mind, co-ordinating with a Supreme Spirit, and finding expression on maximum levels of power and personality unification as the Supreme Being. But to deny the mechanism of the finite creation is to deny fact and to disregard reality.

 

4 - (3:5.15) Throughout the universe, every unit is regarded as a part of the whole. Survival of the part is dependent on co-operation with the plan and purpose of the whole,

 

 

Let's see if this what you mean, But the realm of the whole (totality) can not be perceived by a human ...

 

The Supreme Being may not be able to be discerned but we can discern the individuality of the whole, because the Supreme is the individuality of the Supreme Being. The Supreme Being is a power personality-synthesis. The Almighty is the power and the Supreme is the Individuality/Personality. The Supreme already exists prior to this completed synthesis of the Supreme Being.

 

 

(112:1.17)This distinction is vital, for in a cosmic system the individual members are not connected with each other except in relation to the whole and through the individuality of the whole.

 

So me and you can become connected to each other in an intimate way if we both discover the individuality of the whole.

 

IMO the trick is trying to figure out just what part of God does this Supreme come from??... The u.b mentions that she is God the Mother but she has to have some sort of connection to the I AM. IMO this is the Infinite Upholder. The very last concept or aspect of God. IMO this is the part of God that comes from the end of eternity-infinity and reaches back. The Supreme is a finite upholder and God is Lastly an Infinite Upholder. IMO the Supreme is a downstepped expression of the Infinite Upholder. IMO this is what the authors mean by Father-Father and Mother-Son ETC. The authors don't call the Father, Father-Mother, but they do mention him once as Father-Father.

 

1 - (8:1.2) The first act of the Infinite Spirit is the inspection and recognition of his divine parents, the Father-Father and the Mother-Son

Edited by -Scott-
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Let me see if by my left-handed thinking, if I were to say that my deity-likeness is due to my unique individualistic unification of my parts by choosing those godlike attributes which will bring harmony and balance to my selfhood. Then could I say, that by this process of synthesization that my parts are made whole - that is to act as 'oneness' - I now can be godlike, acting as a whole person, once I achieve this 'oneness' of my total being - deity-likeness. Does this make any sense to you all?

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I have achieved deity-likeness by personal unification of all my parts i.e: the 4 actuals.

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In other words I have to achieve godlikeness to attain to deity-likeness.

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In other words I have to achieve godlikeness to attain to deity-likeness.

 

Hi Raymond!

 

I think the fusion with the Father or the Spirit would be linked to the deity, but the godlikeness can be achieved step by step, through the Thought Adjusters.

But first we must ascend the seven psychic circles, in the mansion worlds achieve fusion.

Unless exceptions in which the fusion takes place here.

 

 

(62.1) 5:0.1 IF THE finite mind of man is unable to comprehend how so great and so majestic a God as the Universal Father can descend from his eternal abode in infinite perfection to fraternize with the individual human creature, then must such a finite intellect rest assurance of divine fellowship upon the truth of the fact that an actual fragment of the living God resides within the intellect of every normal-minded and morally conscious Urantia mortal. The indwelling Thought Adjusters are a part of the eternal Deity of the Paradise Father. Man does not have to go farther than his own inner experience of the soul’s contemplation of this spiritual-reality presence to find God and attempt communion with him.

 

 

 

Also remember God the Sevenfold:

 

(11.13) 0:8.9 This sevenfold Deity personalization in time and space and to the seven superuniverses enables mortal man to attain the presence of God, who is spirit. This sevenfold Deity, to finite time-space creatures sometime power-personalizing in the Supreme Being, is the functional Deity of the mortal evolutionary creatures of the Paradise-ascension career. Such an experiential discovery-career of the realization of God begins with the recognition of the divinity of the Creator Son of the local universe and ascends through the superuniverse Ancients of Days and by way of the person of one of the Seven Master Spirits to the attainment of the discovery and recognition of the divine personality of the Universal Father on Paradise.

 

Alina

***

Edited by Alina
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Alina, I believe you hit on something for me! Let me think these thoughts over and pray on it. Thank you.

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Alina, I believe you hit on something for me! Let me think these thoughts over and pray on it. Thank you.

 

Hello Raymond, all! :)

 

For me, is so:

The Deity sevenfold is who accompanies us on our journey up from here to Paradise.

We begin by recognizing our Sovereign, Michael of Nebadon and his divinity, and we then ascend the Ancients of Days, we also recognize one of the Seven Master Spirits. All this with the guidance of our Spirit Adjuster, either here on earth or fused as individuality.

 

 

 

(184.2) 16:0.2 The Seven Master Spirits thus have their origin in, and derive their individual characteristics from, the following seven likenesses:

(184.3)
16:0.3
1.
The Universal Father
.

(184.4)
16:0.4
2.
The Eternal Son.

(184.5)
16:0.5
3.
The Infinite Spirit.

(184.6)
16:0.6
4.
The Father and the Son.

(184.7)
16:0.7
5.
The Father and the Spirit.

(184.8)
16:0.8
6.
The Son and the Spirit.

(184.9)
16:0.9
7.
The Father, Son, and Spirit.

 

 

 

Greetings,

 

Alina

***

Edited by Alina
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(1260.3) 115:1.2 Conceptual frames of the universe are only relatively true; they are serviceable scaffolding which must eventually give way before the expansions of enlarging cosmic comprehension. The understandings of truth, beauty, and goodness, morality, ethics, duty, love, divinity, origin, existence, purpose, destiny, time, space, even Deity, are only relatively true. God is much, much more than a Father, but the Father is man’s highest concept of God; nonetheless, the Father-Son portrayal of Creator-creature relationship will be augmented by those supermortal conceptions of Deity which will be attained in Orvonton, in Havona, and on Paradise. Man must think in a mortal universe frame, but that does not mean that he cannot envision other and higher frames within which thought can take place.

Edited by -Scott-

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