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-Scott-

A Purely Spiritual Experience VS Religous Experience

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I'm wondering if Scott thinks that we lift up animal level adjutants by engaging them with our personality as though they are somehow separate from us, hovering around in animal minds just waiting for our personalities to interact with them so they can morph into something better just because of personality contact, and thereby be released from the animal level and liberated for cosmic expression. Or perhaps they hover around in our minds but can't evolve without being engaged by our personalities. If so . . . oh God I hope not . . . that's animism or something like it, nothing at all like reality.

 

Do adjutants grow and evolve? Yes they do. They evolve in function as the capacity for receptivity evolves. They are essential to mind evolution. This quote is talking about evolution on an inhabited planet up to the appearance of bona fide human beings.

 

36:5.13 The adjutant mind-spirits experientially grow, but they never become personal. They evolve in function, and the function of the first five in the animal orders is to a certain extent essential to the function of all seven as human intellect. This animal relationship makes the adjutants more practically effective as human mind; hence animals are to a certain extent indispensable to man’s intellectual as well as to his physical evolution.

 

The reason why animals are so important is because they contribute to the evolution of the function of the adjutants preparing the way for the last two adjutants. In the course of the evolution of life on a planet, when the last two adjutants make contact with animal mind, that animal becomes a human being. Once the circuits of the last two adjutants make contact with a given species, it makes contact with all members of that species provided they have the brain circuitry to support it (reception capacity), that is, of normal intelligence. All human beings of normal intelligence are in contact with all seven of the adjutants as soon as they have attained the capacity for a spiritual response. And simultaneous with the appearance of the last two adjutants is the endowment of the Holy Spirit.

 

34:5.3 Mortal man first experiences the ministry of the Spirit in conjunction with mind when the purely animal mind of evolutionary creatures develops reception capacity for the adjutants of worship and of wisdom. This ministry of the sixth and seventh adjutants indicates mind evolution crossing the threshold of spiritual ministry. And immediately are such minds of worship- and wisdom-function included in the spiritual circuits of the Divine Minister.

 

36:5.15 Creature mind, before acquiring the ability to recognize divinity and worship Deity, is the exclusive domain of the adjutant spirits. With the appearance of the spiritual response of the creature intellect, such created minds at once become superminded, being instantly encircuited in the spirit cycles of the local universe Mother Spirit.

 

All human beings of normal intellect are encircuited by all seven adjutants and are superminded by the Holy Spirit. And don't forget that the seventh adjutant coordinates and directs all the other adjutants and the Holy Spirit coordinates and directs all seven of the adjutants in an overlapping and reaching down ministry. Resistance to these ministries, refusal to recognize divinity and be spiritually motivated is evil, and if conscious, sin. Engaging the adjutants and our supermind endowment is a normal and average mental behavior, and it has nothing at all to do with lifting or liberating adjutants.

 

The next quote states that spirit evolution of the human mind is conditioned by two things: 1) evolution through the ministry of the seven adjutants and, 2) cooperation with the Adjuster. Evolving up through the ministry of the seven adjutants does not mean lifting up adjutants and liberating them, it means being taught and led by them; the human mind evolves due to contact with these ministries. It's not the other way around. We don't lift them up, they lift us by their ministry.

 

111:1.2 There is a cosmic unity in the several mind levels of the universe of universes. Intellectual selves have their origin in the cosmic mind much as nebulae take origin in the cosmic energies of universe space. On the human (hence personal) level of intellectual selves the potential of spirit evolution becomes dominant, with the assent of the mortal mind, because of the spiritual endowments of the human personality together with the creative presence of an entity-point of absolute value in such human selves. But such a spirit dominance of the material mind is conditioned upon two experiences: This mind must have evolved up through the ministry of the seven adjutant mind-spirits, and the material (personal) self must choose to co-operate with the indwelling Adjuster in creating and fostering the morontia self, the evolutionary and potentially immortal soul.

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Bonita, what an intriguing idea -- that the Life carriers, in their over-control of the evolution of a neural-biochemical package, are taking direct aim the seven local universe adjutant circuits :o

 

Regarding conscious or subconscious resistance to the essential ministry of their differential urges,

 

Resistance to these ministries, refusal to recognize divinity and be spiritually motivated is evil, and if conscious, sin. Engaging the adjutants and our supermind endowment is a normal and average mental behavior, and it has nothing at all to do with lifting or liberating adjutants.

 

Bingo! My guess is that what some mistake as a spiritual experience is little more than relaxing into the normal ministry of this level of consciousness of our local universe mother. For many of us, freedom from anxiety is so wonderful, so unexpected, we call it "spiritual". In reality, such freedom may simply be the normal mode in which we were designed to... "discover, recognize, interpret and choose" :D

 

Simply detaching from clingy attachments can be a life-changer. I wonder how much of this natural normalization was involved in the experience of Gautama Siddhartha?

 

Nigel

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Nigel, in my opinion, Siddhartha experienced a level of soul growth, mind spiritualization, that enabled him to access morontia mind, referred to below as a "new phase of soul consciousness." Can't prove it, of course.

 

5:2.5 It is exceedingly difficult for the meagerly spiritualized, material mind of mortal man to experience marked consciousness of the spirit activities of such divine entities as the Paradise Adjusters. As the soul of joint mind and Adjuster creation becomes increasingly existent, there also evolves a new phase of soul consciousness which is capable of experiencing the presence, and of recognizing the spirit leadings and other supermaterial activities, of the Mystery Monitors.

 

But you gave me another thought about what Scott might be thinking of. Don't the yogis try to lift chakrahs and liberate them into the spiritual cosmos? I always said that there was danger in equating chakras with adjutants and this might be evidence of it. It's a futile exercise if TUB is correct. If the seventh adjutant is always in charge of the others, then all you have to do is allow it to lead. They're all unified and coordinated. Check out this quote:

 

34:5.2 On the inhabited worlds the Spirit begins the work of evolutionary progression, starting with the lifeless material of the realm, first endowing vegetable life, then the animal organisms, then the first orders of human existence; and each succeeding impartation contributes to the further unfolding of the evolutionary potential of planetary life from the initial and primitive stages to the appearance of will creatures. This labor of the Spirit is largely effected through the seven adjutants, the spirits of promise, the unifying and co-ordinating spirit-mind of the evolving planets, ever and unitedly leading the races of men towards higher ideas and spiritual ideals.

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Bonita, what an intriguing idea -- that the Life carriers, in their over-control of the evolution of a neural-biochemical package, are taking direct aim the seven local universe adjutant circuits :o

 

Regarding conscious or subconscious resistance to the essential ministry of their differential urges,

 

 

 

Bingo! My guess is that what some mistake as a spiritual experience is little more than relaxing into the normal ministry of this level of consciousness of our local universe mother. For many of us, freedom from anxiety is so wonderful, so unexpected, we call it "spiritual". In reality, such freedom may simply be the normal mode in which we were designed to... "discover, recognize, interpret and choose" :D

 

Simply detaching from clingy attachments can be a life-changer. I wonder how much of this natural normalization was involved in the experience of Gautama Siddhartha?

 

Nigel

 

Hello Nigel, all! :)

 

For me, actually it is not necessary, analyze too spiritual experience. actually have or do not have.

If you have, we will have no doubt, whatsoever, that is very different from any other experience or "belief of experience."

 

 

(1119.8) 102:2.3 It is difficult to identify and analyze the factors of a religious experience, but it is not difficult to observe that such religious practitioners live and carry on as if already in the presence of the Eternal. Believers react to this temporal life as if immortality already were within their grasp. In the lives of such mortals there is a valid originality and a spontaneity of expression that forever segregate them from those of their fellows who have imbibed only the wisdom of the world. Religionists seem to live in effective emancipation from harrying haste and the painful stress of the vicissitudes inherent in the temporal currents of time; they exhibit a stabilization of personality and a tranquillity of character not explained by the laws of physiology, psychology, and sociology.

 

 

Greetings,

 

Alina

***

Edited by Alina
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For me, actually it is not necessary, analyze too spiritual experience. actually have or do not have.

If you have, we will have no doubt, whatsoever, that is very different from any other experience or "belief of experience."

 

Indeed! But then there are those who only hear about such things, and make up stories about what might be going on. Think how the sublime personal experience of Gautama Siddhartha gets translated to "freedom from attachement", even "freedom from self."

 

Tragic? :unsure:

 

Nigel

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There is not the least doubt Nigel!

Genuine freedom of that "self" is more expensive the longing of the human soul, is what is "priceless" and transcends by far... any other temporary achievement:

 

Let's read this:

 

(1141.4) 103:9.6 When theology masters religion, religion dies; it becomes a doctrine instead of a life. The mission of theology is merely to facilitate the self-consciousness of personal spiritual experience. Theology constitutes the religious effort to define, clarify, expound, and justify the experiential claims of religion, which, in the last analysis, can be validated only by living faith. In the higher philosophy of the universe, wisdom, like reason, becomes allied to faith. Reason, wisdom, and faith are man’s highest human attainments. Reason introduces man to the world of facts, to things; wisdom introduces him to a world of truth, to relationships; faith initiates him into a world of divinity, spiritual experience.

 

 

Thanks and love!

 

Alina

***

Edited by Alina
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It is amazing to me how widespread aberrations of the intellect are. Some are more serious than others, obviously. Some are innocent and naive aberrations while others are deliberate. Then there are those who cannot or will not think for themselves and choose to use other people's thoughts as their own.

 

Don't you think that spiritualization of the mind includes the correction of aberrations of intellect, erroneous thoughts? Don't you think that it is a worthwhile service to help people overcome erroneous thinking? Isn't that what the Buddha was trying to do? It's not his fault that those he tried to enlighten resisted and refused to alter their thinking and instead chose to cling to erroneous ideas.

 

2:3.6 The rule of the Creator Sons in the local universes is one of creation and spiritualization. These Sons devote themselves to the effective execution of the Paradise plan of progressive mortal ascension, to the rehabilitation of rebels and wrong thinkers, but when all such loving efforts are finally and forever rejected, the final decree of dissolution is executed by forces acting under the jurisdiction of the Ancients of Days.

 

Our Master Michael is devoted to the rehabilitation of wrong thinkers. Whether we realize it or not, there is a conspiracy of spiritual influences determined for us to get it right, to think spiritually, and as long as we don't fight it, it's gonna happen.

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-Scott- how exactly dies what you just wrote have anything to do with lifting up Adjutants?

 

The exact connection of the statement with the explanation you provided is missing.

 

Are you simply trying to emphasize that one needs to use higher Adjutants - but you're phrasing it as if the Adjutants are lifted-moved from someplace to someplace - or what?

 

I am saying that our adjutant mind can be engaged by our personal self within that inner temple. Nothing more nothing less. As Bonita pointed out the 7th adjutant does have a over control of the first 6, but thats not the only control going on our personality is capable of controlling the selfhood, and that selfhood includes our adjutant mind.

 

 

111:1.2 There is a cosmic unity in the several mind levels of the universe of universes. Intellectual selves have their origin in the cosmic mind much as nebulae take origin in the cosmic energies of universe space. On the human (hence personal) level of intellectual selves the potential of spirit evolution becomes dominant, with the assent of the mortal mind, because of the spiritual endowments of the human personality together with the creative presence of an entity-point of absolute value in such human selves. But such a spirit dominance of the material mind is conditioned upon two experiences: This mind must have evolved up through the ministry of the seven adjutant mind-spirits, and the material (personal) self must choose to co-operate with the indwelling Adjuster in creating and fostering the morontia self, the evolutionary and potentially immortal soul.

 

"assent of the mortal mind". Ie. our adjutant mind can assend within our human consciousness, and our personality can dominate this adjutant mind. Also the authors make a point to say that its on the "personal level" where this dominance takes place.

Edited by -Scott-

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Actually, I have 14 years of post-secondary school education and I'm sorry you think that it makes me pretentious. Perhaps you misunderstand the difference between self-confidence and grandiose pomposity. I'm just sharing what I know just like your friend Chris shares what he knows. And I'm so happy I could make you laugh and that you don't take me too seriously, which is obvious.

 

Anyway, the personality itself doesn't dominate the mind. It's supposed to be spirit that dominates and personality which identifies with spirit. Also, the adjutants do not ascend (assend is not a word), personalities ascend due to the ministry of the adjutants. Only personalities ascend and adjutants are not personalities. Where exactly did you read that adjutants ascend?

 

Then you wrote: "Also the authors make a point to say that its on the "personal level" where this dominance takes place."

 

My question to you: First, the quote says ". . . human, hence personal level of intellect . . .". Being a human, what other level of intellect do you have that isn't personal? One begs to know if you think you are not a person on all intellectual levels. What is your mind if it is not personal? Plant mind? Animal mind? Maybe you're taking the phrase "animal mind" a little too literally. TUB means animal-origin mind.

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Ok. Here's how I consider it:

 

 

 

1. I am a personality from God. I have a Fragment from God. I also have an identity which I can seat in a self.

 

2. There are multiple kinds of selves. One kind is a "higher self". A "higher self" is a soul. Another kind is a "lower self". A human is a "lower self".

 

3. My soul (or "higher") self grows from interaction with my Fragment.

 

4. My human (or "lower") self is a body+mind unit. The mind of a human/lower self is ministered by the Adjutants.

 

5. My Fragment indwells the mind of my human (or "lower") self.

 

6. My goal is to sustain the seat of my identity in my soul (or "higher") self - instead of seating my identity in my human (or "lower") self.

 

7. The process of fulfilling that goal is the essence of both my ongoing spiritual, and religious, experiences.

Edited by Absonite
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Hi -Scott-,

 

"assent of the mortal mind". Ie. our adjutant mind can assend within our human consciousness, and ...

 

"...with the assent of the mortal mind..." (1216.3) 111:1.2

 

Here, I read "assent" as "with the permission of".

Are you reading it as "ascend "? Is this why you write about ascension?

 

Nigel

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Anyway, the personality itself doesn't dominate the mind. It's supposed to be spirit that dominates and personality which identifies with spirit.

 

Oh wow. This is one of the most fundamental aspects of the revelation. Spirit does not dominate personality. Personality transcends spirit and mind, it unifies the entire selfhood "including spirit". Personality functions in spirit as Spirit Pattern, its the "wherein" part of that line "wherein,whereon,wherewith".

 

 

 

"...with the assent of the mortal mind..." (1216.3) 111:1.2

 

Here, I read "assent" as "with the permission of".

Are you reading it as "ascend "? Is this why you write about ascension?

 

Nigel

 

Yea good catch, no I just misread that lol.

Edited by -Scott-

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Ok. Here's how I consider it:

1. I am a personality from God. I have a Fragment from God. I also have an identity which I can seat in a self.

 

2. There are multiple kinds of selves. One kind is a "higher self". A "higher self" is a soul. Another kind is a "lower self". A human is a "lower self".

 

3. My soul (or "higher") self grows from interaction with my Fragment.

 

4. My human (or "lower") self is a body+mind unit. The mind of a human/lower self is ministered by the Adjutants.

 

5. My Fragment indwells the mind of my human (or "lower") self.

 

6. My goal is to sustain the seat of my identity in my soul (or "higher") self - instead of seating my identity in my human (or "lower") self.

 

7. The process of fulfilling that goal is the essence of both my ongoing spiritual, and religious, experiences.

 

Yeah, that's good except #3. Soul growth results from both the adjutant mind and the Adjuster. The soul is a dual origin entity. It's origin has to be both material and spiritual in order to be morontial.

 

Also, I would clarify #4. The human mind of the "lower self" is ministered to by more than the adjutants. Don't forget the Holy Spirit. Everyone seems to leave her out; I'm not sure why.

 

And as for #5 I would add: The Adjuster lives in the superconscious which is a not a part of the conscious lower material intellect. There's the subconscious, the conscious and the superconscious. Both the subconscious and the superconscious are unconscious.

 

91:2.6 But there is also a domain of prayer wherein the intellectually alert and spiritually progressing individual attains more or less contact with the superconscious levels of the human mind, the domain of the indwelling Thought Adjuster.

 

The material mind delicately touches the superconscious from below.

 

111:1.5 Human consciousness rests gently upon the electrochemical mechanism below and delicately touches the spirit-morontia energy system above. Of neither of these two systems is the human being ever completely conscious in his mortal life; therefore must he work in mind, of which he is conscious.

 

The soul, which is superadjutant and subspiritual, has the potential for actual contact with the Adjuster. The Adjuster cannot usually contact the lower animal-origin level of mind.

 

112:6.7 But the morontia soul, being superadjutant, does not retain self-consciousness without the Adjuster when deprived of the material-mind mechanism.

 

110:7.6 The Adjuster finds it almost impossible to register these inspiring spirit leadings in an animal mind so completely dominated by the chemical and electrical forces inherent in your physical natures.

 

The Adjuster ministers to the material mind but does so at the soul level. Therefore the goal is soul growth.

 

117:3.6 Man consciously grows from the material toward the spiritual by the strength, power, and persistency of his own decisions; he also grows as his Thought Adjuster develops new techniques for reaching down from the spiritual to the morontial soul levels; and once the soul comes into being, it begins to grow in and of itself.

 

Experienced Adjusters are more adept at finding ways to "reach down" but doing so unfortunately often creates mental mayhem. This is why the planetary supervisors are fostering higher spiritual types.

 

110:4.5 There exists a vast gulf between the human and the divine, between man and God. The Urantia races are so largely electrically and chemically controlled, so highly animallike in their common behavior, so emotional in their ordinary reactions, that it becomes exceedingly difficult for the Monitors to guide and direct them. You are so devoid of courageous decisions and consecrated co-operation that your indwelling Adjusters find it next to impossible to communicate directly with the human mind. Even when they do find it possible to flash a gleam of new truth to the evolving mortal soul, this spiritual revelation often so blinds the creature as to precipitate a convulsion of fanaticism or to initiate some other intellectual upheaval which results disastrously. Many a new religion and strange “ism” has arisen from the aborted, imperfect, misunderstood, and garbled communications of the Thought Adjusters.

 

110:4.6 For many thousands of years, so the records of Jerusem show, in each generation there have lived fewer and fewer beings who could function safely with self-acting Adjusters. This is an alarming picture, and the supervising personalities of Satania look with favor upon the proposals of some of your more immediate planetary supervisors who advocate the inauguration of measures designed to foster and conserve the higher spiritual types of the Urantia races.

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Oh wow. This is one of the most fundamental aspects of the revelation. Spirit does not dominate personality. Personality transcends spirit and mind, it unifies the entire selfhood "including spirit". Personality functions in spirit as Spirit Pattern, its the "wherein" part of that line "wherein,whereon,wherewith".

 

Allow me to clarify. Spirit is dominant but does not dominate unless the personality wills that God's will be done. The goal is to allow spirit to dominate. Does that make more sense?

 

Spirit is dominant and personality has the choice to decide whether or not it wants spirit to dominate. That is the meaning of "evolution of dominance". Is that clear? Am I making any sense to you know?

 

112:2.15 The purpose of cosmic evolution is to achieve unity of personality through increasing spirit dominance, volitional response to the teaching and leading of the Thought Adjuster. Personality, both human and superhuman, is characterized by an inherent cosmic quality which may be called “the evolution of dominance,” the expansion of the control of both itself and its environment.

 

25:1.4 In personality relationships the spiritual is dominant over the material, even though it does not now so appear on Urantia; . . .

 

111:1.2 On the human (hence personal) level of intellectual selves the potential of spirit evolution becomes dominant, with the assent of the mortal mind, . . .

 

116:6.1 In the evolutionary superuniverses energy-matter is dominant except in personality, where spirit through the mediation of mind is struggling for the mastery.

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Speaking about "ascend or ascension" also we do not forget that the domain of the first cosmic

circle, points us termination of ministry adjutant mind, about our personality, ie continue to be, but come other influences, and these are precisely the Cosmic Mind by the Spirit creator.The Superadjutant!

What happens is that everything is synchronized and working harmoniously, systematically: adjutans, Spirit Adjuster and all ... spiritual influences that surround us. Therefore sometimes becomes difficult to treat separately each of these entities and how they work in us.

 

Apparently, the adjutant mind, are directly related to the ascent of the seven circles psquícos.

 

 

(1211.5) 110:6.20 From the seventh to the third circle there occurs increased and unified action of the seven adjutant mind-spirits in the task of weaning the mortal mind from its dependence on the realities of the material life mechanisms preparatory to increased introduction to morontia levels of experience. From the third circle onward the adjutant influence progressively diminishes.

 

(1211.6) 110:6.21 The seven circles embrace mortal experience extending from the highest purely animal level to the lowest actual contactual morontia level of self-consciousness as a personality experience. The mastery of the first cosmic circle signalizes the attainment of premorontia mortal maturity and marks the termination of the conjoint ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits as an exclusive influence of mind action in the human personality. Beyond the first circle, mind becomes increasingly akin to the intelligence of the morontia stage of evolution, the conjoined ministry of the cosmic mind and the superadjutant endowment of the Creative Spirit of a local universe.

 

 

Alina

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Allow me to clarify. Spirit is dominant but does not dominate unless the personality wills that God's will be done. The goal is to allow spirit to dominate. Does that make more sense?

 

Spirit is dominant and personality has the choice to decide whether or not it wants spirit to dominate. That is the meaning of "evolution of dominance". Is that clear? Am I making any sense to you know?

 

Yes I understand what you mean. Spirit substance is a progressing substance, spirit substance can lift us up. It can uplift us if our will (personality) allows it and it can act on that.

 

Just in regards to the adjutants. The spirit of wisdom etc is a manifestation within us that ministers, but that "Spirit of wisdom" can be an experience of the personal self. We can literally be in our personal being the "spirit of wisdom". We can be manifestations of the "spirit of wisdom". We can identifiy with that ministry and become like that adjutant spirit within us. Our soul is literally superadjutant. This superadjutant soul-self is that higher self. So we don't have to experience these adjutants just as temporal self would experience them, we can experience them with our soul-self. Hence they can relate to our higher self.

 

12:6.7 But the morontia soul, being superadjutant, does not retain self-consciousness without the Adjuster when deprived of the material-mind mechanism.

Edited by -Scott-
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Yes I understand what you mean. Spirit substance is a progressing substance, spirit substance can lift us up. It can uplift us if our will (personality) allows it and it can act on that.

 

Yes, all spirit is responsive to the spirit-gravity circuit.

 

77:3.2 The spirit-gravity circuit literally pulls the soul of man Paradiseward.

 

Just in regards to the adjutants. The spirit of wisdom etc is a manifestation within us that ministers, but that "Spirit of wisdom" can be an experience of the personal self. We can literally be in our personal being the "spirit of wisdom". We can be manifestations of the "spirit of wisdom". We can identifiy with that ministry and become like that adjutant spirit within us.

 

Okay, here we're getting into murky water again and I'll assume it's because of your unique usage of the English language. Let me clarify one point first, we cannot LITERALLY become the spirit of wisdom. That's the last thing I would want to be, the literal spirit of wisdom, an adjutant mind circuit without personality. Like that could ever happen. LOL Maybe you mean something else, something like becoming wise, growing in wisdom?

 

And again, you say "an experience of the personal self" . . . what other self is there? You never answered that question. We do not have a non-personal self and our impersonal self is the Adjuster. Are you trying to delineate between the human mortal self and the Adjuster? What is a "personal self" by your definition?

 

Our soul is literally superadjutant. This superadjutant soul-self is that higher self. So we don't have to experience these adjutants just as temporal self would experience them, we can experience them with our soul-self. Hence they can relate to our higher self.

 

Okay, you're getting there, almost. How do you suppose a soul would experience the the adjutants if it's superadjutant? Besides being superadjutant, the soul is also supermaterial and doesn't function on the material level? The soul functions on the morontia level where there are no adjutants. Now what?

 

p1219:1 111:3.2 The soul, being supermaterial, does not of itself function on the material level of human experience.

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Okay, here we're getting into murky water again and I'll assume it's because of your unique usage of the English language. Let me clarify one point first, we cannot LITERALLY become the spirit of wisdom. That's the last thing I would want to be, the literal spirit of wisdom, an adjutant mind circuit without personality. Like that could ever happen. LOL Maybe you mean something else, something like becoming wise, growing in wisdom?

 

I said we can be a manifestation of that "the spirit of wisdom". An ant manifests the spirit of intuition by forming in colonies. That mindal adjutant energy within the ant is part of its mindal energy. That ant does not literally experience the "spirit of intuition" by having literal intuition. An ant is not literally intuitive. I am saying that an animal origin self experiences these mind adjutants initially as energy. They don't actually experience the "spirit of inuition" etc, because those are personal ministries. Only a personal being can literally experience "the spirit of intuition" an ant experiences the "spirit of intuition" as a purely mind energy.

 

 

 

And again, you say "an experience of the personal self" . . . what other self is there? You never answered that question. We do not have a non-personal self and our impersonal self is the Adjuster. Are you trying to delineate between the human mortal self and the Adjuster? What is a "personal self" by your definition?

We have a temporal identity (animal-origin self) that dies when we die, and a surviving higher identity (personal self) (soul-self) that lives on.

 

 

71.2) 5:6.7 The material self has personality and identity, temporal identity; the prepersonal spirit Adjuster also has identity, eternal identity. This material personality and this spirit prepersonality are capable of so uniting their creative attributes as to bring into existence the surviving identity of the immortal soul.

 

There is temporal identity, adjuster identity and the surviving identity of the immortal soul. This surviving identity and temporal identity are all us. Its just there is a higher and lower (us) we have a "better self". Which is our surviving and personal self.

 

When we shift the seat of our identity from the material to the spiritual, it doesn't happen over night its a work in progress. That lower identity is slowly transfering by our own choices going up into that higher area of human consciousness and becoming personal. A child has created this higher identity (soul-identity) at age 6 when he/she has made their first morale decision. Our first morale decision was really that first truly personal choice of a child that created that higher personal self. That why is a child who has died before the age of 6, and had both parents been iniquitous that child would not resurect on the mansion worlds. That child would just cease to be. Its not until they form that personal self are they are functioning as personal beings.

 

That is also why a child does not have a soul yet until they make that first personal choice, because our soul-self is a personal self. This doesn't mean that a child prior to age 6 does not have a personality either. They just haven't used it yet until they make that first morale decision.

 

There could be a situation in which you have a 5 year old who desperately desires with all of his self to survive death. But let's say that child dies and both his parents are iniquitous and don't survive death. That child will not live again because he/she never got the chance to make a personal decision regarding his/her survival, because that child never had and never was functioning as a personal self.

Edited by -Scott-

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Hi Scott! :)

 

You say: "That ant does not literally experience the "spirit of intuition" by having literal intuition. An ant is not literally intuitive. I am saying that an animal/animal origin self experiences these mind adjutants initially as energy. They don't actually experience the "spirit of inuition" etc, because those are personal ministries. Only a personal being can literally experience "the spirit of intuition" an ant experiences the "spirit of intuition" as a purely mind energy"

 

But read the quote:

 

(402.3) 36:5.6 1. The spirit of intuition — quick perception, the primitive physical and inherent reflex instincts, the directional and other self-preservative endowments of all mind creations; the only one of the adjutants to function so largely in the lower orders of animal life and the only one to make extensive functional contact with the nonteachable levels of mechanical mind.

 

Now, do you think?

 

 

Alina

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-Scott- for me, you're using the word personal just a bit too much.

 

It's overkill.

I'm not informed by it - I'm distracted.

 

This may be because I already know that I am a personality. I consider other people as personalities. And so I don't really have the need to emphasize that they are personal because, again, I already accept that they are personalities and thus what they do is personal.

 

 

But the one point where we really disagree in fact here (not just a linguistic use issue) is when you say that the temporal identity (in addition to the surviving identity) is us.

 

 

It's not me.

I'm not him.

 

As I've affirmed before: I'm not my human (i.e. not my human mind, not my human body).

I am the personality bestowed by God to my human-self.

Edited by Absonite
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@Alina That quote says that the adjutant functions in these creatures, but an ants mind has nothing spiritual to it. There is a spirit of Intuition impinging upon the ants mind, but that ant is not going to experience literal spirit ministry within its own mind. That ant with its small adjutant mind is going to experience the energy of that spiritual ministry. That ant is going to experience an energy of instinct, which is the energy expression of the spirit of intuition.

 

An animal cannot have literal intuition. Here is a quote that shows that.

 

16:7.2.The selective response of an animal is limited to the motor level of behavior. The supposed insight of the higher animals is on a motor level and usually appears only after the experience of motor trial and error. Man is able to exercise scientific, moral, and spiritual insight prior to all exploration or experimentation.

 

16:7.3.Only a personality can know what it is doing before it does it; only personalities possess insight in advance of experience. A personality can look before it leaps and can therefore learn from looking as well as from leaping. A nonpersonal animal ordinarily learns only by leaping.

16:7.4.As a result of experience an animal becomes able to examine the different ways of attaining a goal and to select an approach based on accumulated experience. But a personality can also examine the goal itself and pass judgment on its worth-whileness, its value. Intelligence alone can discriminate as to the best means of attaining indiscriminate ends, but a moral being possesses an insight which enables him to discriminate between ends as well as between means. And a moral being in choosing virtue is nonetheless intelligent. He knows what he is doing, why he is doing it, where he is going, and how he will get there.

 

An animal does not have insight, its only functioning on the motor level of behavior, and humans can find themselves functioing on this same level as well. This quote ties into everything I have been saying.

 

6:7.5.When man fails to discriminate the ends of his mortal striving, he finds himself functioning on the animal level of existence.

 

 

Absonite: As I've affirmed before: I'm not my human (i.e. not my human mind, not my human body).

I am the personality bestowed by God to my human-self.

Yes you are personality but you also have an identity. Identity is not mind, or body. It is not tangible like the personality.

 

That aspect of you that changes is not your personality though. One way to know the difference between our self and personality is that the personality is completely unpredictable. When someome says they like that aspect of you that they can predict they are talking about the self. Not even deity can predict personality because its entirely spontaneous. That is also probably why the authors mention to "make fewer personal plans considering other personalities". Because a personality is unpredictable.

Edited by -Scott-
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That quote says that the adjutant functions in these creatures, but an ants mind has nothing spiritual to it. There is a spirit of Intuition impinging upon the ants mind, but that ant is not going to experience literal spirit within its own mind. That ant with its small adjutant mind is going to experience the energy of that adjutant. But it won't experience it's spiritual ministry. That ant is going to experience instinct, which is the energy expression of the spirit of intuition.

 

Thanks Scott!

 

Then, an animal is experiencing by "instinct", the spirit of intuition, although of course it is not

consciousness. :D

That's the difference that I wanted to highlight.The animal is led, as it somehow, by their instincts,

The same applies to the mechanical mind, the part that can not be taught. beyond what is only mechanically. Mental inertia not allowed to advance. In these conditions can not update the potential we have as prerogatives.

 

(135.11) 12:6.1 The universe is nonstatic. Stability is not the result of inertia but rather the product of balanced energies, co-operative minds, co-ordinated morontias, spirit overcontrol, and personality unification. Stability is wholly and always proportional to divinity.

 

(1303.1) 118:8.11 An automatic universe reaction is stable and, in some form, continuing in the cosmos. A personality who knows God and desires to do his will, who has spirit insight, is divinely stable and eternally existent. Man’s great universe adventure consists in the transit of his mortal mind from the stability of mechanical statics to the divinity of spiritual dynamics, and he achieves this transformation by the force and constancy of his own personality decisions, in each of life’s situations declaring, “It is my will that your will be done.”

 

 

Alina

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@Alina yeap, if animals could recieve the literal spiritual ministry of all those spirits, they wouldn't be animals they would be human. They would have insight and courage etc.

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I said we can be a manifestation of that "the spirit of wisdom". An ant manifests the spirit of intuition by forming in colonies. That mindal adjutant energy within the ant is part of its mindal energy. That ant does not literally experience the "spirit of intuition" by having literal intuition. An ant is not literally intuitive. I am saying that an animal/animal origin self experiences these mind adjutants initially as energy. They don't actually experience the "spirit of inuition" etc, because those are personal ministries. Only a personal being can literally experience "the spirit of intuition" an ant experiences the "spirit of intuition" as a purely mind energy.

 

Okay, but that's not what you said before. You used the world literal before. So now you're saying that each of the adjutants manifest differently in humans than they do in the lower animals. I agree, but it is because of the presence of the last two adjutants who direct and coordinate the lower five.

 

We have a temporal identity (animal-origin self) that dies when we die, and a surviving higher identity (personal self) (soul-self) that lives on. . . . There is temporal identity, adjuster identity and the surviving identity of the immortal soul. This surviving identity and temporal identity are all us. Its just there is a higher and lower (us) we have a "better self". Which is our surviving and personal self.

 

Scott, I'm not sure that you realize that the temporal identity, the material, human, animal-origin self is also personal. Even the part of us that is not the "better self", as you say, is personal. Any entity with a personality is personal. By saying that only the soul is personal, you're implying that we have no personality until we have a soul, when in fact we can't co-create a soul without the free will that accompanies personality. So personality comes first. This is the third time I've asked, please explain what you mean by personal.

 

When we shift the seat of our identity from the material to the spiritual, it doesn't happen over night its a work in progress. That lower identity is slowly transfering by our own choices going up into that higher area of human consciousness and becoming personal.

 

Dang, that was exactly right until you came to the end where you said "becoming personal". A person is always personal even when they're making bad choices. You must mean something else by the word personal, but darned if I know what it is. Does anyone else know what he's talking about? Nigel?

 

A child has created this higher identity (soul-identity) at age 6 when he/she has made their first morale decision. Our first morale decision was really that first truly personal choice of a child that created that higher personal self. That why is a child who has died before the age of 6, and had both parents been iniquitous that child would not resurect on the mansion worlds. That child would just cease to be. Its not until they form that personal self are they are functioning as personal beings.

 

The first moral (not morale which means something else entirely) decision is a personal decision. But all decisions made by a person are personal decisions, moral or immoral. They are personal decisions because they are made by a personality, and they are made for reasons specific to that person. Personal does not mean moral, nor does it mean soul. I'm still struggling to understand why and how you, Scott, use the word personal, because it is different, real different.

 

And by the way, there is nothing in TUB that says that kids who die before getting an Adjuster and who have parents who both refuse to survive, does not survive either. They never address that issue, as far as I know. The only thing they say is that the child is attached to the parents and it doesn't say what happens when both parents fail to survive.

 

49:6.12 Children who die when too young to have Thought Adjusters are repersonalized on the finaliter world of the local systems concomitant with the arrival of either parent on the mansion worlds. A child acquires physical entity at mortal birth, but in the matter of survival all Adjusterless children are reckoned as still attached to their parents.

49:6.13 In due course Thought Adjusters come to indwell these little ones, while the seraphic ministry to both groups of the probationary-dependent orders of survival is in general similar to that of the more advanced parent or is equivalent to that of the parent in case only one survives. Those attaining the third circle, regardless of the status of their parents, are accorded personal guardians.

 

That is also why a child does not have a soul yet until they make that first personal choice, because our soul-self is a personal self. This doesn't mean that a child prior to age 6 does not have a personality either. They just haven't used it yet until they make that first morale decision.

 

No, it's a moral choice, not a personal choice. All choices made by persons are personal. A child born with a personality uses it every time it makes a decision; the decision has to be a selfless moral (not morale) decision in order to initiate the birth of a soul. Perhaps you're thinking of this quote:

 

5:6.6 Capacity for divine personality is inherent in the prepersonal Adjuster; capacity for human personality is potential in the cosmic-mind endowment of the human being. But the experiential personality of mortal man is not observable as an active and functional reality until after the material life vehicle of the mortal creature has been touched by the liberating divinity of the Universal Father, being thus launched upon the seas of experience as a self-conscious and a (relatively) self-determinative and self-creative personality. The material self is truly and unqualifiedly personal.

 

Note that the quote above says the CAPACITY for personality is potential in the cosmic mind, which we are told all normal-minded individuals have. Being touched by the Universal Father means being given personality which is self-conscious, self-determinative and self-creative. It does not say that this occurs with a moral decision. In fact, it doesn't say exactly when the material life vehicle is touched. But it does say that the material self is UNQUALIFIEDLY PERSONAL. Unqualifiedly means without reservation or limitation. It does not say soul-self is personal. It says material self is personal.

 

There could be a situation in which you have a 5 year old who desperately desires with all of his self to survive death. But let's say that child dies and both his parents are iniquitous and don't survive death. That child will not live again because he/she never got the chance to make a personal decision regarding his/her survival, because that child never had and never was functioning as a personal self.

 

I'd like to know where you read that. Show me the quote. TUB doesn't address this issue. But what makes you think that the child wouldn't be assigned to the Material Sons and Daughters? I'm not saying that's what TUB says, because it says nothing about that, but it does say that everyone has adequate mercy credits to survive.

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An animal cannot have literal intuition. Here is a quote that shows that.

 

16:7.2.The selective response of an animal is limited to the motor level of behavior. The supposed insight of the higher animals is on a motor level and usually appears only after the experience of motor trial and error. Man is able to exercise scientific, moral, and spiritual insight prior to all exploration or experimentation.

 

What makes you think that trial and error is not intuitive? Intuitive means without conscious reasoning and it includes instinct.

 

36:5.6 1. The spirit of intuition - quick perception, the primitive physical and inherent reflex instincts, the directional and other self-preservative endowments of all mind creations; the only one of the adjutants to function so largely in the lower orders of animal life and the only one to make extensive functional contact with the nonteachable levels of mechanical mind.

 

intuitive |inˈt(y)o͞oitiv|adjectiveusing or based on what one feels to be true even without conscious reasoning; instinctive: I had an intuitive conviction that there was something unsound in him.

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