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A Purely Spiritual Experience VS Religous Experience

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Guest EEB aka AASB-AWSW

Not in my house.

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Guest EEB aka AASB-AWSW

The kingdom of God is at hand.

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Thanks EEB. I believe religious is the correct spelling haha all well. But yes my thoughts are sure to be challenged, but that's partly why I come on this forum. I don't mind challenges. :)

 

In our study group Chris spent 12 hours covering this topic lol so I hope I can add a few new things to this Convo.

Edited by -Scott-

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Guest EEB aka AASB-AWSW

I can no longer restrain my Fathers Rath.

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Here is another example where we can see that there is a temporal identity which will not survive and a higher identity (surviving identity) which is the joint creation of the adjuster and us. This higher identity is the identity of the soul. When we die it continues.

 

(71.2) 5:6.7 The material self has personality and identity, temporal identity; the prepersonal spirit Adjuster also has identity, eternal identity. This material personality and this spirit prepersonality are capable of so uniting their creative attributes as to bring into existence the surviving identity of the immortal soul.

 

Luckily most human beings have a surviving identity as a result of the universal bestowal of thought adjusters. IMO most of us walk around using only our temporal identity though.

 

12:6.8.The persistence of memory is proof of the retention of the identity of original selfhood; it is essential to complete self-consciousness of personality continuity and expansion.

 

Even Jesus the man had a higher self/identity. I think a few readers have got tripped up on Jesus in thinking he had 2 personalities. He really only had one personality, with two identities/selves. He had a acquired divine self/identity and a human self. Just like how humans have a temporal identity, and a higher soul identity/self.

 

88:3.8.3. The acquired spirit identity of the man of Nazareth which was built up during his lifetime in the flesh, first, by the direct efforts of his Thought Adjuster, and later, by his own perfect adjustment between the physical necessities and the spiritual requirements of the ideal mortal existence, as it was effected by his never-ceasing choice of the Father's will, must have been consigned to the custody of the Paradise Father. Whether or not this spirit reality returned to become a part of the resurrected personality, we do not know, but we believe it did. But there are those in the universe who hold that this soul-identity of Jesus now reposes in the "bosom of the Father," to be subsequently released for leadership of the Nebadon Corps of the Finality in their undisclosed destiny in connection with the uncreated universes of the unorganized realms of outer space.

Edited by -Scott-
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Hi to all!

 

For me, identity is related to the lower mind. Individuality we acquire when we are born of the Spirit.

This means that while the Father not identify us as his son, (I know we are all his sons) but until this event is revealed, only has an undifferentiated identity.

Identity we all have, but not everyone has Individuality until acknowledged the indwelling Spirit.

Just there is when we acquired our individuality.

"It is not enough that this spirit be poured out upon you; the divine Spirit must dominate and control every phase of human experience"(381.1)

The transfer of material identity to morontia soul, produces a new being, an individual being.

That is, the identity material identifies with the morontia and so the individualization.

The opposite of individual is somewhat undifferentiated, dual.

The individual has achieved the unification of his personality. This does not mean, is not synonymous with ego as is commonly believed.

 

Usually term "individual" is very poorly used, at least in Spanish language. Besides, is not the same a being "individualized" one undifferentiated.

 

Nor should we confuse "individualism" or "individualistic" (this could be selfishness) with a unique personality, unified by "...morontia identification is effected by the sincerity, persistence,and steadfastness of the God-seeking decisions of the human creature" (112:2.20)

 

(381.1) 34:6.7 Those who have received and recognized the indwelling of God have been born of the Spirit. “You are the temple of God, and the spirit of God dwells in you.” It is not enough that this spirit be poured out upon you; the divine Spirit must dominate and control every phase of human experience.

 

(1229.7) 112:2.20 ...But selfhood of survival value, selfhood that can transcend the experience of death, is only evolved by establishing a potential transfer of the seat of the identity of the evolving personality from the transient life vehicle — the material body — to the more enduring and immortal nature of the morontia soul and on beyond to those levels whereon the soul becomes infused with, and eventually attains the status of, spirit reality. This actual transfer from material association to morontia identification is effected by the sincerity, persistence, and steadfastness of the God-seeking decisions of the human creature.

 

From a cosmic perspective, I think that if we have not individuality, this makes impossible the connection with the whole.The identity of personality, could not evolve an immortal soul without recognition of the Presence of God in us.

"Thought Ajusters are individualizations prepersonal reality of the Universal Father..."

 

(1227.7) 112:1.17 But the concept of the personality as the meaning of the whole of the living and functioning creature means much more than the integration of relationships; it signifies the unification of all factors of reality as well as co-ordination of relationships. Relationships exist between two objects, but three or more objects eventuate a system, and such a system is much more than just an enlarged or complex relationship. This distinction is vital, for in a cosmic system the individual members are not connected with each other except in relation to the whole and through the individuality of the whole.

 

 

 

Greetings,

 

Alina

***

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Continuing my previous post :) :

 

Actually, would like Scott says, two identities. an transient, and the other, an identity "individual" The meeting of the two natures, material and spiritual, for me would be the birth of Individuality.

So I relate with those born of the Spirit.

 

Alina

***

 

 

 

PS: There are quotes for this, but sooner or later here to get them. :unsure:

Edited by Alina
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@ Alina - Good Morning! Just read these last several posts from yesterday. Soul conciousness/mindedness to me is its awareness of thought adjuster - and this is a new potential entity that our material personality unifies within our human nature. The spirit Thought Adjuster has mindedness of the divine prepersonal nature from whence it hails but not identity - would need personality to have identity. Spirit Adjuster seeks personalization. Soul seeks identity and spiritual ization - needs both the personality and and strive for spiritualization. Transfer of identity by personality to soul is our morontial selves. As morontial beings we have both soul mindedness and identity plus spirit Thought Adjuster mindedness. Once we have achieved our full personality potential for manifestation/expression then do we have some type of fusion/melding/ with the spirit Thought Adjuster. Our efforts/achievements having thus augmented the pure Spirit nature of the Thought Adjuster. And since our personalities are as uniqus as snowflakes - then so too is this spirit nature uniquely

augmented. To me then we are perfected expressions of the Infinite One.

 

Are we on the same track or not? :ph34r:

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The spirit Thought Adjuster has mindedness of the divine prepersonal nature from whence it hails but not identity - would need personality to have identity.

 

Raymond, I hope you'll forgive me for correcting that statement, or at least expounding on it. The quote from TUB below states that the Adjuster does have identity - eternal identity. In fact, we humans only have temporal identity, meaning only in regards to our time on earth. We have no identity after death unless we have identified on some level with our Adjuster, thereby creating a soul. In the eyes of the universe, it is the Adjuster who gives us identity.

 

5:6.7 The material self has personality and identity, temporal identity; the prepersonal spirit Adjuster also has identity, eternal identity. This material personality and this spirit prepersonality are capable of so uniting their creative attributes as to bring into existence the surviving identity of the immortal soul.

 

49:6.11 The arrival of an Adjuster constitutes identity in the eyes of the universe, and all indwelt beings are on the roll calls of justice.

 

Once we have achieved our full personality potential for manifestation/expression then do we have some type of fusion/melding/ with the spirit Thought Adjuster.

 

We don't ever achieve our full personality potential. That's the beauty of having a personality with the potential of seven dimensional levels. (112:1.9) The Adjuster can never exhaust his potential, therefore is he eternally revealing new levels of personality realization.

 

106:7.1 Some of the difficulties in forming concepts of infinite reality integration are inherent in the fact that all such ideas embrace something of the finality of universal development, some kind of an experiential realization of all that could ever be. And it is inconceivable that quantitative infinity could ever be completely realized in finality. Always there must remain unexplored possibilities in the three potential Absolutes which no quantity of experiential development could ever exhaust. Eternity itself, though absolute, is not more than absolute.

 

106:7.5 No matter how much you may grow in Father comprehension, your mind will always be staggered by the unrevealed infinity of the Father-I AM, the unexplored vastness of which will always remain unfathomable and incomprehensible throughout all the cycles of eternity. No matter how much of God you may attain, there will always remain much more of him, the existence of which you will not even suspect. And we believe that this is just as true on transcendental levels as it is in the domains of finite existence. The quest for God is endless!

 

And, fusion with the Adjuster is not just the result of achieving "full personality potential for manifestation". Fusion has to do with the achievement of a certain level of attunement to the will of God. And TUB describes that attunement as complete and final.

 

p1212:2 110:7.1 The achievement of the seven cosmic circles does not equal Adjuster fusion. There are many mortals living on Urantia who have attained their circles; but fusion depends on yet other greater and more sublime spiritual achievements, upon the attainment of a final and complete attunement of the mortal will with the will of God as it is resident in the Thought Adjuster.

 

Our efforts/achievements having thus augmented the pure Spirit nature of the Thought Adjuster. And since our personalities are as uniqus as snowflakes - then so too is this spirit nature uniquely augmented. To me then we are perfected expressions of the Infinite One.

 

I don't know about this; at least it's not the way I think about it. I don't see myself as augmenting spirit, I see spirit as augmenting me; it's the other way around. And, I can't visualize myself as a "perfected expression of the Infinite One" ever, considering that there will always be more perfection to attain. Even when we fuse with the Adjuster, we haven't achieved absolute oneness. Absolute oneness takes an eternity, which means it can never really happen. As soon as we think we're there, then another potential opens up, then another, on into infinity. It's actually kind of comforting that finally someone will never, ever leave me - will always be sharing with me. What a concept!

 

110:7.4 An absolute oneness with the divine Monitor, a complete exhaustion of the endowment of an Adjuster, can only be achieved in eternity subsequent to the final attainment of the Universal Father, the Father of spirits, ever the source of these divine gifts.

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@Bonita

 

Good morning Bonita - Thanks for the correction!!!!!! Yes, and it is of huge importance! The TA has both mindedness and identity with the Infinite One from which it hails. You made me fully awake now. I apologize for misleading statement. Not a problem here. I like your final statement also. I wanted to convey that I was able to personalize my spiritualized nature due to efforts of TA. Some where I read that the TA seeks personalization. Seeks personality. The Oneness you described is to me my efforts/choices to do will of the Father and the final results is the Oneness. We also know the personality is minded and without identity. My soul is minded and is unified with other constituents parts of my nature by personality. I see the morontial phase as another step in spiritualizing my nature. I see my morontial self as being one and now having soul identity and mindedness and TA identity and mindedness. I wanted to ask Alina if that is what she was saying. All these constituent parts of my being - unified this new nature by my functioning personality. Trying to differentiate soul's acquision of identity - my identity by wilfull chosing. Choice expressed in morontia existence - which I mean to be after death or purely material existence.

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@ Alina - Good Morning! Just read these last several posts from yesterday. Soul conciousness/mindedness to me is its awareness of thought adjuster - and this is a new potential entity that our material personality unifies within our human nature. The spirit Thought Adjuster has mindedness of the divine prepersonal nature from whence it hails but not identity - would need personality to have identity. Spirit Adjuster seeks personalization. Soul seeks identity and spiritual ization - needs both the personality and and strive for spiritualization. Transfer of identity by personality to soul is our morontial selves. As morontial beings we have both soul mindedness and identity plus spirit Thought Adjuster mindedness. Once we have achieved our full personality potential for manifestation/expression then do we have some type of fusion/melding/ with the spirit Thought Adjuster. Our efforts/achievements having thus augmented the pure Spirit nature of the Thought Adjuster. And since our personalities are as uniqus as snowflakes - then so too is this spirit nature uniquely

augmented. To me then we are perfected expressions of the Infinite One.

 

Are we on the same track or not? :ph34r:

 

Hello Raymond!

Good Day to all! :)

 

Yes, I agree, but I want to add that according to my discernment, individuality is available even before the merger with the Thought Adjuster.

When we free ourselves from the chains that bind us to preconceived ideas, misconceptions, prejudices nonsense ... and start thinking, really thinking for ourselves, but who is the Spirit frees us, when we acknowledge from within,from our deepest sense of the soul.

We started to be a "cosmic reality", a "individualization" personality, which is Not relative.

Before this happens, we have personality but this is tied to the will, ideas and thoughts of others, unconsciously, of course, and we can not let go of the influences that harm us, and hinder our spiritual growth, and growth in other areas because everything is linked, the evolution must always be more or less even.

Individuality means "indivisibility" and this has to do with achieving the Unification of personality.

 

Just add another point of view on this topic. :)

 

I think the following quotes is best to complete what I want mean:

 

 

(1232.2) 112:5.1 Selfhood is a cosmic reality whether material, morontial, or spiritual. The actuality of the personal is the bestowal of the Universal Father acting in and of himself or through his manifold universe agencies. To say that a being is personal is to recognize the relative individuation of such a being within the cosmic organism. The living cosmos is an all but infinitely integrated aggregation of real units, all of which are relatively subject to the destiny of the whole. But those that are personal have been endowed with the actual choice of destiny acceptance or of destiny rejection.

 

I remember at this time to Do the Father's Will is look more and more like Him,

 

(31.6) 1:7.6 The higher concepts of universe personality imply: identity, self-consciousness, self-will, and possibility for self-revelation. And these characteristics further imply fellowship with other and equal personalities, such as exists in the personality associations of the Paradise Deities. And the absolute unity of these associations is so perfect that divinity becomes known by indivisibility, by oneness. “The Lord God is one.” Indivisibility of personality does not interfere with God’s bestowing his spirit to live in the hearts of mortal men. Indivisibility of a human father’s personality does not prevent the reproduction of mortal sons and daughters.

 

 

Alina

***

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Guest EEB aka AASB-AWSW

I will remove myself from this circle.

Edited by EEB aka AASB-AWSW
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Some where I read that the TA seeks personalization. Seeks personality.

 

Again, I hope you don't mind if I clarify this, only because of the wording. The word personalized seems to get used a lot and sometimes without discriminating its meaning. Although the Adjuster does attain personality, his quest is not for his own personality, his quest is to become part of an already existing personality. I'm not talking about Personalized Adjusters here, those who do get their own personality. I'm talking about Adjusters who fuse with mortals. They never "get" or "attain" our personality, they become part of it.

 

0:5.9 3. Spirit. The divine spirit that indwells the mind of man — the Thought Adjuster. This immortal spirit is prepersonal not a personality, though destined to become a part of the personality of the surviving mortal creature.

 

Adjusters attain personality expression. Personality and free will go together as a gift package from God. This gift is automatic and requires no special act; it's a true gift. God's second gift is his will in the form of an Adjuster, that is, if we want it. By fusion, we are simply allowing, fully and completely, the free-will of our personality to express God's will. The Adjuster augments the volitional portion of personality thereby gaining expression of the will of God in an experiential dimension, the living God. And as the fused personality progresses and ascends it gains wider and wider volitional berth because it is acting in concert with God. However, although the volitional part of the equation is God's, the personality part of the equation is always ours. We mortals had personality first and therefore always outrank the Adjuster in matters concerning personality.

 

112:7.12 From the time of Adjuster fusion the status of the ascender is that of the evolutionary creature. The human member was the first to enjoy personality and, therefore, outranks the Adjuster in all matters concerned with the recognition of personality.

 

We also know the personality is minded and without identity.

 

Please allow me to make one more minor clarification. The personality, itself, is not minded. Personality is bestowed upon living energy systems which include mind ministry, but it does not have mind itself as a constituent feature. Once personality is bestowed upon a living energy system and encircuited by mind ministry, it has the capacity for self-consciousness and other-than-self consciousness as well as the means to activate volition.

 

0:5.11 Personality. The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul. Personality is the one changeless reality in an otherwise ever-changing creature experience; and it unifies all other associated factors of individuality. The personality is the unique bestowal which the Universal Father makes upon the living and associated energies of matter, mind, and spirit, and which survives with the survival of the morontial soul.

 

16:8.5 Creature personality is distinguished by two self-manifesting and characteristic phenomena of mortal reactive behavior: self-consciousness and associated relative free will.

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Nice to see that there is agreement on a topic :). Raymond you asked how would you be able to tell the difference between your temporal identity and your soul identity. IMO its a child-like viewpoint where you experience other beings on a deeply personal level and you should be experiencing the individuality of the whole with this identity. Just my opinion though.

 

If anyone wants to listen to some interesting insight on this topic Chris has a ton of audio on this topic at symmetryofsoul.org under the archive just look for personality and selfhood, the 1st 15 minutes of the show is just review though so if someone does listen they can probably skip over that. I will probably re-listen to those audios this week.

Edited by -Scott-
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Seems to me that considering one as having a personality is totally different than considering one as being a personality.

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Seems to me that considering one as having a personality is totally different than considering one as being a personality.

 

Just a thought to ponder the u.b uses the words (personality integration) a couple times. So there is (personality integration and experiential personality realization). I was just waiting for us to all agree on self before I bring up these topics.

Edited by -Scott-
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Please allow me to make one more minor clarification. The personality, itself, is not minded. Personality is bestowed upon living energy systems which include mind ministry, but it does not have mind itself as a constituent feature. Once personality is bestowed upon a living energy system and encircuited by mind ministry, it has the capacity for self-consciousness and other-than-self consciousness as well as the means to activate volition.

 

 

@Bonita -

I tried locating a phrase whereby it indicated that personality functions with one's nature and has either a propensity or mindedness towards goodness - moreso than truth and beauty. That's the gist. I have copious notes but can't locate the exact quote. But impressed me that although personality is not an entity/being it nevertheless is at least minded to goodness. I tried usuing combinations of the revelant words on the online search help - to no avail. My hand notes are many, many - no luck in finding the reference I'm looking for? You and Rick seem to have better tools.

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Raymond: I tried locating a phrase whereby it indicated that personality functions with one's nature

 

This should help...

 

16:8.2.Though we can hardly undertake to define personality, we may attempt to narrate our understanding of the known factors which go to make up the ensemble of material, mental, and spiritual energies whose interassociation constitutes the mechanism wherein and whereon and wherewith the Universal Father causes his bestowed personality to function.

 

The personality functions "wherein,whereon and wherewith" the selfhood. Essentially it is in,and on and with the material,mental and spiritual energies. The selfhood is essentially a vehicle for the personality.

 

 

16:8.3 the manifestation of personality is further conditioned and qualified by the nature and qualities of the associated energies of a material, mindal, and spiritual nature which constitute the organismal vehicle for personality manifestation.

 

Here is a list of what the personality is self-conscience of.

 

 

16:8.7.The relative free will which characterizes the self-consciousness of human personality is involved in:

16:8.8.1. Moral decision, highest wisdom.

16:8.9.2. Spiritual choice, truth discernment.

16:8.10.3. Unselfish love, brotherhood service.

16:8.11.4. Purposeful co-operation, group loyalty.

16:8.12.5. Cosmic insight, the grasp of universe meanings.

16:8.13.6. Personality dedication, wholehearted devotion to doing the Father's will.

16:8.14.7. Worship, the sincere pursuit of divine values and the wholehearted love of the divine Value-Giver.

Edited by -Scott-
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I tried locating a phrase whereby it indicated that personality functions with one's nature and has either a propensity or mindedness towards goodness - moreso than truth and beauty.

 

Not this one is it, Raymond?

 

...The concept of truth might possibly be entertained apart from personality, the concept of beauty may exist without personality, but the concept of divine goodness is understandable only in relation to personality....
(31.3) 1:7.3

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Thank you both Rick and Scott - I know those are quotes I was looking for!!!

 

Bonita - thanks again. I need you to keep holding my feet to the fire. It is good for me to keep my thoughts ordered. Majority of my learning was self-obtained. A small portion from study groups. Meditation/contemplation. Some of the study groups I attended towards the end were disappointing in that egos and clickiness seemed to predominate them. To me that was a waste of time. Here, I see very little of this - and people seem well versed in their studies. I particularly enjoy discussions where readers are applying their areas of expertise which open so many doors for me. Bonita's correctness allows me to reevaluate thoughts I held onto for a long time. Also opens avenues of deeper contemplations.

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@Raymond. Personality is a tricky topic its sort of this transcendent reality that is not really tangible to us. Another definition we can give personality is: (A level of deified reality) and I mean deified with a lower case (d). The authors seem to use a lower case d to signify something that is deity-like. We can achieve god-likeness, or adjuster-likeness. We are co-creational but not creators, we are not Deity. Our personality is not a level of Deity reality, but it is a level of deified reality. Lol

 

Anyways here is the quote.

 

0:5.1.Personality is a level of deified reality

 

I think that line shocks and confuses some readers, because we think well I am just this little creature here on urantia who is growing. But we have to remember that personality does not change, it engages us directly through the personality circuit of the universal father. The personality of the Universal Father literally transcends all the absolutes. Personality literally transcends all.

Edited by -Scott-
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If you think that you're a little creature growing on Urantia - then more than likely you think that you are a human-self, and have not shifted the seat of identity.

 

Shifting the seat of identity - in addition to realizing what one is, and from where one came - is important for minimizing all sorts of shock and confusion.

 

Realizing that you came from God (that God bestowed you to your human-self), that you partake of God's personality circuit, and thus also partake of deified reality - suddenly shifts the significance and purpose and motivation etc... for every action. That shift results with a profound epiphany, an instant of spiritual satori, that re-orients one's entire subsequent approach, and interaction with, everything.

 

As ultra important as that shift is, doing so is as simple as realizing that you're the driver of the car (not the car) - realizing that you're the wearer of the biological robes (not the robes) - realizing that you're the captain of the ship (not the ship) - etc...

 

 

And once you've made that profound and simple shift and realize that you're a personality (not your human-self), then going on to relate with the navigational system, the consultant, the pilot - the Fragment - far more smoothly flows.

Edited by Absonite
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I like comments made by Scott and Absonite concerning Deity origin of personality. Although Deity personalized as God - it is this personalization that we relate to - have a relationship with.

@Raymond. Personality is a tricky topic its sort of this transcendent reality that is not really tangible to us. Another definition we can give personality is: (A level of deified reality) and I mean deified with a lower case (d). The authors seem to use a lower case d to signify something that is deity-like. We can achieve god-likeness, or adjuster-likeness. We are co-creational but not creators, we are not Deity. Our personality is not a level of Deity reality, but it is a level of deified reality. Lol

 

Anyways here is the quote.

 

0:5.1.Personality is a level of deified reality

 

I think that line shocks and confuses some readers, because we think well I am just this little creature here on urantia who is growing. But we have to remember that personality does not change, it engages us directly through the personality circuit of the universal father. The personality of the Universal Father literally transcends all the absolutes. Personality literally transcends all.

 

Again, this is where we got lost in previous discussions as to the map and the map readers. Personality is of Deity Level - pre-personalization and pre-existential ( pre- 7 Absolutes - pre-Trinity ).

 

In short we're again saying that Deity-Level - 1st Source and Center - Infinite level of Deity is the Hypothetical Level of Reality that is in fact a level of Reality we have to posit to comprehend deity personality of deity nature transcends all absolutes - existential absolutes.

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In short we're again saying that Deity-Level - 1st Source and Center - Infinite level of Deity is the Hypothetical Level of Reality that is in fact a level of Reality we have to posit to comprehend deity personality of deity nature transcends all absolutes - existential absolutes.

 

The FSC is not hypothetical. Unqualified unity of infinity is hypothetical. Not really sure where you're going with that.

 

105:1.5 The prereality, primordial, eternity situation may be thought of something like this: At some infinitely distant, hypothetical, past-eternity moment, the I AM may be conceived as both thing and no thing, as both cause and effect, as both volition and response. At this hypothetical eternity moment there is no differentiation throughout all infinity. Infinity is filled by the Infinite; the Infinite encompasses infinity. This is the hypothetical static moment of eternity; actuals are still contained within their potentials, and potentials have not yet appeared within the infinity of the I AM. But even in this conjectured situation we must assume the existence of the possibility of self-will.

 

And you don't have to comprehend personality in order to have a religious experience, experience soul consciousness or grow in spirit. Even the revelators do not fully understand personality (16:8.2). Also, the personality circuit is not what draws us to Paradise, it's the spirit-gravity circuit.

 

7:3.2 The spiritual-gravity pull of the Eternal Son constitutes the inherent secret of the Paradise ascension of surviving human souls. All genuine spirit values and all bona fide spiritualized individuals are held within the unfailing grasp of the spiritual gravity of the Eternal Son. The mortal mind, for example, initiates its career as a material mechanism and is eventually mustered into the Corps of the Finality as a well-nigh perfected spirit existence, becoming progressively less subject to material gravity and correspondingly more responsive to the inward pulling urge of spirit gravity during this entire experience. The spirit-gravity circuit literally pulls the soul of man Paradiseward.

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