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-Scott-

A Purely Spiritual Experience VS Religous Experience

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Just to get the ball rolling, I will provide some quotes about the self, just so that I can etleast establish in this conversation that there such a thing as a self/identity....Hopefully there can be some agreement on this etleast, but if not I guess thats okay to. Everyone is entitled to their own belief and I don't want to use the u.b like a hammer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

112:2.16.An ascending onetime human personality passes through two great phases of increasing volitional dominance over the self and in the universe:

 

65 - (133:7.7) Ideas are not simply a record of sensations; ideas are sensations plus the reflective interpretations of the personal self; and the self is more than the sum of one's sensations. There begins to be something of an approach to unity in an evolving selfhood, and that unity is derived from the indwelling presence of a part of absolute unity which spiritually activates such a self-conscious animal-origin mind.

 

25 - (94:11.6)But a great limitation in the original gospel of Siddhartha, as it was interpreted by his followers, was that it attempted the complete liberation of the human self from all the limitations of the mortal nature by the technique of isolating the self from objective reality. True cosmic self-realization results from identification with cosmic reality and with the finite cosmos of energy, mind, and spirit, bounded by space and conditioned by time.

 

27 - (99:5.1) While religion is exclusively a personal spiritual experience—knowing God as a Father—the corollary of this experience—knowing man as a brother—entails the adjustment of the self to other selves, and that involves the social or group aspect of religious life

 

 

 

 

 

 

100:6.3.The marks of human response to the religious impulse embrace the qualities of nobility and grandeur. The sincere religionist is conscious of universe citizenship and is aware of making contact with sources of superhuman power. He is thrilled and energized with the assurance of belonging to a superior and ennobled fellowship of the sons of God. The consciousness of self-worth has become augmented by the stimulus of the quest for the highest universe objectives—supreme goals.

 

100:6.4.The self has surrendered to the intriguing drive of an all-encompassing motivation which imposes heightened self-discipline, lessens emotional conflict, and makes mortal life truly worth living.

 

103:2.10 When the growing child fails of personality unification, the altruistic drive may become so overdeveloped as to work serious injury to the welfare of the self.

 

I believe that this quote provides proof that there is indeed a higher self and a lower self. As Bonita has already provided a quote for, and IMO the higher self is not simply just a (higher urge). But a functional identity, or our (adjuster self).

 

34 - (103:5.5) Human happiness is achieved only when the ego desire of the self and the altruistic urge of the higherself (divine spirit) are co-ordinated and reconciled by the unified will of the integrating and supervising personality

 

 

 

2. The Self

112:2.7.The universe fact of God's becoming man has forever changed all meanings and altered all values of human personality. In the true meaning of the word, love connotes mutual regard of whole personalities, whether human or divine or human and divine. Parts of the self may function in numerous ways—thinking, feeling, wishing—but only the co-ordinated attributes of the whole personality are focused in intelligent action; and all of these powers are associated with the spiritual endowment of the mortal mind when a human being sincerely and unselfishly loves another being, human or divine.

 

 

54 - (112:7.6) On the evolutionary worlds, selfhood is material; it is a thing in the universe and as such is subject to the laws of material existence. It is a fact in time and is responsive to the vicissitudes thereof. Survival decisions must here be formulated. In the morontia state the self has become a new and more enduring universe reality, and its continuing growth is predicated on its increasing attunement to the mind and spirit circuits of the universes. Survival decisions are now being confirmed. When the self attains the spiritual level, it has become a secure value in the universe, and this new value is predicated upon the fact that survival decisions have been made, which fact has been witnessed by eternal fusion with the Thought Adjuster. And having achieved the status of a true universe value, the creature becomes liberated in potential for the seeking of the highest universe value—God.

 

 

Well that was probably a bit over-kill to establish that there is in fact a self. One more quote just to add as a header for later dicussion is that this higher self/higher identity becomes the identity of our soul in the next life.

 

9 - (5:6.7) The material self has personality and identity, temporal identity; the prepersonal spirit Adjuster also has identity, eternal identity. This material personality and this spirit prepersonality are capable of so uniting their creative attributes as to bring into existence the surviving identity of the immortal soul

 

This "surviving identity" becomes the identity of our soul on the morontia life, and the process of always striving for a "higher self" continues on. IMO

Edited by -Scott-
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Bonita: A "level where we are experiencing our own personality" are your exact words. Maybe you didn't mean what you wrote, but I don't know that. I only know what you wrote and it doesn't take any twisting to come up with my conclusion.

 

We've been down this road before, you and me. You use words differently than I do so things you say make no sense to me

 

Yes those where my words and we can get to a point or level in our development where we are capable of experiencing our own personality. I don't see how this doesn't make sense to you ?!

 

112:1.4.3. Value status. Personality can be experientially realized in the progressive realms of the material, the morontial, and the spiritual

 

Yes we were down this road before, and when you were faced with quotes that showed that I was speaking the truth you just ignored them and moved on (105:7.2) (9:1.1)(188:0.1) , just like you will probably do with this quote I am providing right now.

 

In the 1st instance I stated that the authors use different name designations to describe different facets of deity and I provided a quote that proved that. But somehow you convinced yourself that I was wrong. (9:1.1)

 

The 2nd instance I stated that Havona is also experiential. Though I agreed later on that this is not entirely true, it turns it I was not exactly wrong either and that there is a quote that states that the Central Universe is Superexperiential. (105:7.2).

 

I than showed how through god the sevenfold, the 2nd and 3rd persons of deity can experience the superexperiential reality of the Central Universe.

Edited by -Scott-
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So....

 

Identity is not the same as self.

Instead, identity is - OF - a self.

 

i.e.

 

A self serves as a seat for identity. And one can transfer identity from seat to seat - from one kind of self to another kind of self - thus identifying WITH a specific kind of self.

 

If that is accurate, then my question becomes: what IS one, such that one HAS an identity which one can transfer and seat (which one can identify with) a self?

Edited by Absonite
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If that is accurate, then my question becomes: what IS one, such that one HAS an identity which one can transfer and seat (which one can identify with) a self?

 

A 7 dimensional potential personal reality, bouncing step by step beyond a birthspace in time, already accommodated in eternity?

This may explain why the loss of a baby person is so distressing.

 

Nigel

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There are a few things to remember here. One is that spirit, through the mediation of mind, is always striving for dominance of the personality.

 

p140:10 12:8.14 On Paradise the three energies, physical, mindal, and spiritual, are co-ordinate. In the evolutionary cosmos energy-matter is dominant except in personality, where spirit, through the mediation of mind, is striving for the mastery. Spirit is the fundamental reality of the personality experience of all creatures because God is spirit. Spirit is unchanging, and therefore, in all personality relations, it transcends both mind and matter, which are experiential variables of progressive attainment.

 

Another thing is that mind is functional unity and it always seeks for spirit coordination.

 

111:2.1 Throughout the mind functions of cosmic intelligence, the totality of mind is dominant over the parts of intellectual function. Mind, in its essence, is functional unity; therefore does mind never fail to manifest this constitutive unity, even when hampered and hindered by the unwise actions and choices of a misguided self. And this unity of mind invariably seeks for spirit co-ordination on all levels of its association with selves of will dignity and ascension prerogatives.

 

Transferring the seat of identity should be a natural evolution, but many resist this cosmic reality. All we are asked to do, and all we can do, is discover, recognize, interpret and choose (p2094:09). If we do this, allowing mind to seek spirit, spirit to seek mind and personality to unify, we're evolving, growing and progressing. But also remember that all true growth is unconscious. The only things that are conscious are discovery, recognition, interpretation and choice, and even some of them can also be unconscious.

 

100:1.8 The factors of religious growth may be intentional, but the growth itself is unvaryingly unconscious.

 

Another thing is that the emotional life is not necessarily the spiritual life, although I do think that we are capable of divine emotions, such as altruism and mercy.

 

101:1.3 The divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking. It is your thoughts, not your feelings, that lead you Godward. The divine nature may be perceived only with the eyes of the mind. But the mind that really discerns God, hears the indwelling Adjuster, is the pure mind. "Without holiness no man may see the Lord." All such inner and spiritual communion is termed spiritual insight. Such religious experiences result from the impress made upon the mind of man by the combined operations of the Adjuster and the Spirit of Truth as they function amid and upon the ideas, ideals, insights, and spirit strivings of the evolving sons of God.

 

p1192:1 108:5.6 Your transient and ever-changing emotions of joy and sorrow are in the main purely human and material reactions to your internal psychic climate and to your external material environment.

 

p1121:5 102:3.3 Material feelings, human emotions, lead directly to material actions, selfish acts. Religious insights, spiritual motivations, lead directly to religious actions, unselfish acts of social service and altruistic benevolence.

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...To actually get to that level where we are experiencing our own personality seems to take some serious effort on our part.

 

Sounds like we coincide here. Now that I've found God (He is He!) so who exactly am I? What is my core person really like? In the end, the answer, like you said, is follow the SoT, probably back to the Adjuster, maybe even 'self-acting' personality!

 

But then I ask, will we ever know ourselves in completion, even 'repletion'? And another question then comes up, is this excessive self examination, a reason not to simply serve and patiently watch as all Father's magnificent creation blossoms one experience at a time, in his good time?

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Isn't experiencing your own personality what Lucifer did? Sounds rather isolating to me.

 

When you find God you forget about yourself. And when you actually choose God, his prepersonality and your personality are one, as far as that particular choice is concerned. The soul, which is morontia mind, consists of two minds with one will. I don't think that this involves self analysis at all. It's about experience. We're supposed to forget our selves and allow God to attain personality expression in us . . . "it is my will that your will be done"

 

110:2.5-6 You as a personal creature have mind and will. The Adjuster as a prepersonal creature has premind and prewill. If you so fully conform to the Adjuster's mind that you see eye to eye, then your minds become one, and you receive the reinforcement of the Adjuster's mind. Subsequently, if your will orders and enforces the execution of the decisions of this new or combined mind, the Adjuster's prepersonal will attains to personality expression through your decision, and as far as that particular project is concerned, you and the Adjuster are one. Your mind has attained to divinity attunement, and the Adjuster's will has achieved personality expression.

To the extent that this identity is realized, you are mentally approaching the morontia order of existence. Morontia mind is a term signifying the substance and sum total of the co-operating minds of diversely material and spiritual natures. Morontia intellect, therefore, connotes a dual mind in the local universe dominated by one will. And with mortals this is a will, human in origin, which is becoming divine through man's identification of the human mind with the mindedness of God.

 

The question is not whether we will ever know ourselves in repletion, it is whether we will ever know God in repletion, and the answer is no.

 

110:7.4 Subsequent to mortal fusion the Adjusters share your destiny and experience; they are you. After the fusion of the immortal morontia soul and the associated Adjuster, all of the experience and all of the values of the one eventually become the possession of the other, so that the two are actually one entity. In a certain sense, this new being is of the eternal past as well as for the eternal future. All that was once human in the surviving soul and all that is experientially divine in the Adjuster now become the actual possession of the new and ever-ascending universe personality. But on each universe level the Adjuster can endow the new creature only with those attributes which are meaningful and of value on that level. An absolute oneness with the divine Monitor, a complete exhaustion of the endowment of an Adjuster, can only be achieved in eternity subsequent to the final attainment of the Universal Father, the Father of spirits, ever the source of these divine gifts.

Edited by Bonita
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Also, in regards to this quote:

 

112:1.4 Personality can be experientially realized in the progressive realms of the material, the morontial, and the spiritual.

 

The quote is about personality realization which is not the same as experiencing the personality. It's about the personality experiencing reality and choosing it. Personality realization occurs with experience in the seven psychic circles of spiritual growth. The higher you go, the more real you become. This has nothing to do with experiencing the personality. It has to do with personality realization, which is the process of becoming more real. And the process of becoming more real is the process of becoming more spiritual.

 

110:6.1 The sum total of personality realization on a material world is contained within the successive conquest of the seven psychic circles of mortal potentiality.

 

p1210:5 110:6.10 3. Personality reality. The degree of selfhood reality is directly determined by circle conquest. Persons become more real as they ascend from the seventh to the first level of mortal existence.

 

12:8.12 3. Spirit The highest personal reality. True spirit is not subject to physical gravity but eventually becomes the motivating influence of all evolving energy systems of personality dignity.

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Sounds like we coincide here. Now that I've found God (He is He!) so who exactly am I? What is my core person really like? In the end, the answer, like you said, is follow the SoT, probably back to the Adjuster, maybe even 'self-acting' personality!

 

But then I ask, will we ever know ourselves in completion, even 'repletion'? And another question then comes up, is this excessive self examination, a reason not to simply serve and patiently watch as all Father's magnificent creation blossoms one experience at a time, in his good time?

 

Hey, I agree we are supposed to be "self" forgetting, and not "self" examine but the personality is not a self :). So that should give us some clarity. From study sessions we discussed that the personality is not completely integrated with our selfhood until we are finaliters. Hopefully I can find that quote though for this topic. What personality is really like? I honestly do not know, either than what I read in the u.b. But I am excited to find out. :).

 

 

The quote is about personality realization which is not the same as experiencing the personality. It's about the personality experiencing reality and choosing it. Personality realization occurs with experience in the seven psychic circles of spiritual growth. The higher you go, the more real you become. This has nothing to do with experiencing the personality. It has to do with personality realization, which is the process of becoming more real. And the process of becoming more real is the process of becoming more spiritual.

 

Right because experiential personality realization has nothing to do with "experiencing" our own personality. They just throw the word experiential in for poetic justice? How do you think we actually experience our personality it is not through fiat. It is through experience. That is why they bring up the seven psychic circles. Those circles we attain experientially. Almost as though they are similar to "progressive realms". Personality realization is tied to experience that is why they don't leave the word experience out. I agree though the higher we go the more real we become, but going higher is an experiential process, realizations come from effort, struggle etc.

 

Personality can be experientially realized in the progressive realms of the material, the morontial, and the spiritual

 

The sum total of personality realization on a material world is contained within the successive conquest of the seven psychic circles of mortal potentiality.

 

(112:1.12) Much trouble experienced by mortals in their study of human personality could be avoided if the finite creature would remember that dimensional levels and spiritual levels are not co-ordinated in experiential personality realization.

Edited by -Scott-
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My answer to what one is - to what I am - such that I have an identity which I can shift the seat of from one kind of self, to another kind of self, is that I am a personality.

 

I do not have a personality: I am a personality.

 

Since personalities come from God, I am a personality from God.

In that way, God is my Source.

 

I have a human self.

I have a mind that I use .

And within my mind, dwells a Fragment of God.

 

I also have an identity, which I can shift from one kind of self to another kind of self.

 

If a soul can be accurately considered as a kind of self (a morontial self) - then I must be more careful with how I speak about my identity. In this case, the accurate way for talking about the situation would be: I have shifted the seat of my identity from my human self to the seat of my morontial self (my soul).

 

And that, for sure, I know that I have done - because I no longer consider my self to be my human body.

Edited by Absonite
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If a soul can be accurately considered as a kind of self (a morontial self) - then I must be more careful with how I speak about my identity. In this case, the accurate way for talking about the situation would be: I have shifted the seat of my identity from my human self to the seat of my morontial self (my soul).

 

And that, for sure, I know that I have done - because I no longer consider my self to be my human body.

 

Awesome Absonite, then you should have attained a level of soul consciousness. Soul-consciousness is not your mind being aware of your soul, it's your soul being aware of your mind . . . a little different than what most believe is true.

 

 

p1219:3 111:3.4 The soul becomes increasingly conscious of both the mind and the Adjuster as associated identities, proportional to its own evolutionary growth.

 

130:7.8 When man attains the mind intervening between the material and the spiritual planes of existence, his ideas of time-space will be enormously expanded both as to quality of perception and quantity of experience. The enlarging cosmic conceptions of an advancing spirit personality are due to augmentations of both depth of insight and scope of consciousness.

 

5:2.5 As the soul of joint mind and Adjuster creation becomes increasingly existent, there also evolves a new phase of soul consciousness which is capable of experiencing the presence, and of recognizing the spirit leadings and other supermaterial activities, of the Mystery Monitors.

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I want to be clear here:

 

 

 

By affirming what I did above, I am NOT claiming to have any sort of special "super spiritual powers" here - or any other such foolishness.

 

I am not pretending to be covert contact with Celestials, hopping aboard seraphim to spend weekends in Jersuem, entertaining guests from other Superuniverses, or any of that other stuff often melodramatically proclaimed by some people.

 

And I also am not saying that I'm walking around perceiving this world with a wise, erudite, and fully matured morontial-soul vision.

 

In fact - I'm very doing good just to keep from repeatedly falling flat on my butt more than I already often do (I would use the phrase "fall from grace" - if I could manage sustained grace at all. It's honestly more like a precarious tottering around the overwhelming majority of the time).

 

 

 

So my point about this is simple, with regard to selves and shifting identities: I really suspect that making such a shift from human self to morontial self is one of the core crucial endeavors to achieve (and maintain) during this lifetime on Urantia. As the UB teaches:

 

 

1:3.7In the inner experience of man, mind is joined to matter. Such material-linked minds cannot survive mortal death. The technique of survival is embraced in those adjustments of the human will and those transformations in the mortal mind whereby such a God-conscious intellect gradually becomes spirit taught and eventually spirit led. This evolution of the human mind from matter association to spirit union results in the transmutation of the potentially spirit phases of the mortal mind into the morontia realities of the immortal soul. Mortal mind subservient to matter is destined to become increasingly material and consequently to suffer eventual personality extinction; mind yielded to spirit is destined to become increasingly spiritual and ultimately to achieve oneness with the surviving and guiding divine spirit and in this way to attain survival and eternity of personality existence.

Edited by Absonite
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So my point about this is simple, with regard to selves and shifting identities: I really suspect that making such a shift from human self to morontial self is one of the core crucial endeavors to achieve (and maintain) during this lifetime on Urantia.

 

Yup, that sounds right. So you're saying that you're not aware that your soul is conscious of your mind then? Because that would indicate a shifting of identity. A shift of identity is not synonymous with fusion or completed personality realization. It's just a level of soul evolution toward spirit dominance of the personality. I think I'm a lot older than you so I've had time to make a lot more decisions and a lot more mistakes. Anyway, you'll have to trust me on this I guess. And you're right, it doesn't have anything to do with taking trips to Jerusem or hosting celestials in your bedroom, nor does it mean that a person has reached the first psychic circle. It's about the length, depth and breadth of personality experience and the willingness to do God's will right here on earth in everyday life, with everyday people, in everyday situations. It's all about relationships, human and divine.

 

And don't forget that once the soul comes into existence, it grows in and of itself. You're not conscious of the growth and the soul is not conscious of your contribution to its growth until a certain point in soul evolution where it becomes conscious of both your material mind and the Adjuster's spiritual premind. It's a tremendously illuminating experience, but it doesn't make you any more special or better endowed with knowledge or talent. It just gives you more passion to serve.

 

p1282:1 117:3.6 Mortal man, being a creature, is not exactly like the Supreme Being, who is deity, but man's evolution does in some ways resemble the growth of the Supreme. Man consciously grows from the material toward the spiritual by the strength, power, and persistency of his own decisions; he also grows as his Thought Adjuster develops new techniques for reaching down from the spiritual to the morontial soul levels; and once the soul comes into being, it begins to grow in and of itself.

 

Eventually, when the first psychic circle is reached, the mind is no longer dominated by the lower adjutant mind spirits. They don't go away, they simply do not have control over the mind and emotions. The two higher adjutants take over along with the cosmic mind and the Holy Spirit. This I have not experienced, but I'm aware of its potential and I'm surely looking forward to it.

 

110.6.21 The seven circles embrace mortal experience extending from the highest purely animal level to the lowest actual contactual morontia level of self-consciousness as a personality experience. The mastery of the first cosmic circle signalizes the attainment of premorontia mortal maturity and marks the termination of the conjoint ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits as an exclusive influence of mind action in the human personality. Beyond the first circle, mind becomes increasingly akin to the intelligence of the morontia stage of evolution, the conjoined ministry of the cosmic mind and the superadjutant endowment of the Creative Spirit of a local universe.

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1:3.7In the inner experience of man, mind is joined to matter. Such material-linked minds cannot survive mortal death. The technique of survival is embraced in those adjustments of the human will and those transformations in the mortal mind whereby such a God-conscious intellect gradually becomes spirit taught and eventually spirit led. This evolution of the human mind from matter association to spirit union results in the transmutation of the potentially spirit phases of the mortal mind into the morontia realities of the immortal soul. Mortal mind subservient to matter is destined to become increasingly material and consequently to suffer eventual personality extinction; mind yielded to spirit is destined to become increasingly spiritual and ultimately to achieve oneness with the surviving and guiding divine spirit and in this way to attain survival and eternity of personality existence.

 

 

Uniqueness of personality self-expression and self-realization is you. Personality has 3 functional operations utilized on supreme level, 3 on ultimate level, 1 on absolute level. Preordained to be one with your spiritualized nature. Balance and harmony of the constituent parts of your nature is gift of mind -personality also takes residence in minds of human beings. To be fully human and fully divine is key to me. Yea, strive for the higher self but do so as a human being that wishes to personalize as an individual; just as a Deity-being personalized as an individual God. I can't skip this experience or make light of it. I must fully live as a tadpole to become a frog? That's all I wish to convey. How one goes about this is their own personal unique way. We see it in these discussions. But balanced and harmonious personalized cosmic minds - not broken or abnormal minds - is what we have to work with. Personality will reflect the totality of your unified nature.

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Yea, strive for the higher self but do so as a human being that wishes to personalize as an individual; just as a Deity-being personalized as an individual God. I can't skip this experience or make light of it. I must fully live as a tadpole to become a frog? That's all I wish to convey. How one goes about this is their own personal unique way.

 

I agree. But I think that there is a misconception out there about the phrase, "the more spiritual you become, the less material you are". Even if you completely identify with the spiritual, the material cannot be ignored. The body and all it's needs still exist and need to be dealt with. The material mind with all of its emotions still exists and needs to be dealt with. No one should distain the material body and mind, mistreat it, ignore it or defile it in any way; it is the temple of God. Material reality needs to be cared for with the same love and tenderness that any other part of our existence requires. Actually, I think that the more spiritual you become, the more engaged and involved in this material life you become; you develop more understanding and patience with material things and beings. Engagement with material reality is from a different perspective, a perspective filled with the fruits of the spirit overflowing. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that it is not productive to have contempt for material reality and that includes one's own self. A high functioning spiritual soul will give loving attention to everyone and everything, just as Jesus did, as he passed by, and he/she will care for the body and mind with a loving appreciation.

Edited by Bonita
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Great - Bonita. Of course that's what I wanted to say - you just it better!

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I think it is our attachments and our loyalties and our cosmic citizen "belonging" recognition, all morphing away from the material and toward the spiritual, and if indeed this is happening, part of the proof or fruit is the mature engagement with the material, as described by Bonita and Raymond. The material should get easier and easier....not necesarily wealthier and wealthier but truly less anxiety and less confusion and less distraction. Awareness of the material should be heightened when once we know that in the material patterns and intersections of relationship are examples of the higher laws and the deeper meanings and the presentation of values for our spiritual nature and progress. The UB clearly says this should happen, we are more effective managers of the material as we progress in the spirit. Those who seek to escape the material do not understand its purpose. We must choose, act, error, and learn thereby. We've discussed before two important issues related: discerning the superior from the inferior and the balance between quantity of choices/errors/corrections and the quality of those choices/errors/corrections.

 

Awareness itself is no small feat. To see, to perceive, to understand, to apply to our life that which is placed before our eyes on our daily path. The more we progress, the more aware we should become. The more attention we should pay to that we are aware and the more we should perceive thereby. As fear fades and awareness grows and choices improve by better priorities and motives, we cannot help but grow in spirit and, as suggested, silently and unkowingly growing and maturing into a more confident chooser and more focused volition so our will becomes our experience and needs no control due to our well earned abilities. I mean we become our nature. As has been said, we are spirit with body. What we are describing is realizing this truth....to move our own identity upward and inward to the source and the purpose of the material and away from identifying with the material itself while yet material and mortal.

 

I think this is harder to understand than it is to actually do. And I think many progress in ways that they cannot describe but their loyalties and their faithfullness and their choices and motivations move them, day by day, into greater soul mass and more responsiveness to spirit gravity. This delivers acceleration and attunement to align these many agents and agencies of personal progress to new insights and greater appreciations of importance to mind/spirit. I doubt the lack of knowledge, terms, concepts, and relationships prevents such progress. But I hope that our knowledge here is truly goading us into better priorities and choices every day in many ways to more quickly reach acceleration and "escape velocity" from the material attachments/gravity holding us back from our potential destiny. Loving all your input here my friends.

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Guest EEB aka AASB-AWSW

Chidren will do what children will do.

Edited by EEB aka AASB-AWSW
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Knowing that I am not my body does not imply ceasing to care for, or enjoy living through, my body.

It just means that I know that I am not my body.

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The material should get easier and easier....not necesarily wealthier and wealthier but truly less anxiety and less confusion and less distraction.

 

I agree that it should get easier to recognize truth, beauty and goodness, but we're stuck with confusion and conflict, I fear. Perhaps it is less as we progress, but I personally haven't experienced less. In my world, the tasks are more complex and intricate requiring ever increasing amounts of faith, but the faith part is easy. I'm convinced that conflict of the mind is potentially constructive, while conflict of loyalty in the soul is potentially destructive. I'm reminded of the quote about the fringe of conflict:

 

p1766:03 Forewarn all believers regarding the fringe of conflict which must be traversed by all who pass from the life as it is lived in the flesh to the higher life as it is lived in the spirit. To those who live quite wholly within either realm, there is little conflict or confusion, but all are doomed to experience more or less uncertainty during the times of transition between the two levels of living. In entering the kingdom, you cannot escape its responsibilities or avoid its obligations, but remember: The gospel yoke is easy and the burden of truth is light.

 

I'm also reminded of the quote about accepting the guidance of a seraphim resulting in some tough going.

 

113:4.3 Seraphim function as teachers of men by guiding the footsteps of the human personality into paths of new and progressive experiences. To accept the guidance of a seraphim rarely means attaining a life of ease. In following this leading you are sure to encounter, and if you have the courage, to traverse, the rugged hills of moral choosing and spiritual progress.

 

Which is why this is my most favorite quote in the whole book:

 

26:5.3 That, then, is the primary or elementary course which confronts the faith-tested and much-traveled pilgrims of space. But long before reaching Havona, these ascendant children of time have learned to feast upon uncertainty, to fatten upon disappointment, to enthuse over apparent defeat, to invigorate in the presence of difficulties, to exhibit indomitable courage in the face of immensity, and to exercise unconquerable faith when confronted with the challenge of the inexplicable. Long since, the battle cry of these pilgrims became: "In liaison with God, nothing - absolutely nothing - is impossible."

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Bonita says above: "I agree that it should get easier to recognize truth, beauty and goodness, but we're stuck with confusion and conflict, I fear" Yes BUT there is less FEAR within the confusion and conflict, no? I mean, we know we will error, must error, are here to error so we eliminate the greatest source of error within confusion and conflict - anxieties about outcomes and consequences. By growing in faith and experience, we do not overcome confusion and conflict but we gain confidence in approaching them and seeking the superior from the inferior.

 

Music taught me so much. I never made any fewer errors as I learned to master music....but they were progressively more complex and due to greater difficulty. As I grew in music to become musician, much became natural and easy but confusion and conflict were always present in my challenge to know more and do more than before. If you're not confused, you're simply not paying attention or facing any new challenges. To avoid confusion and conflict is to hold tight to prejudice and/or indifference and to live in fear of change. So, let us feast and fatten and enthuse and invigorate and exhibit and exercise....dang the torpedoes!! :ph34r:

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I'm really curious about what folks here have as the seat of identity.

 

This is a huge topic, but I will start with these paragraphs as a lead in to what I am going to say further on down the road on this topic.

 

111:1.5.Mortal mind is a temporary intellect system loaned to human beings for use during a material lifetime, and as they use this mind, they are either accepting or rejecting the potential of eternal existence. Mind is about all you have of universe reality that is subject to your will, and the soulthe morontia self—will faithfully portray the harvest of the temporal decisions which the mortal self is making. Human consciousness rests gently upon the electrochemical mechanism below and delicately touches the spirit-morontia energy system above. Of neither of these two systems is the human being ever completely conscious in his mortal life; therefore must he work in mind, of which he is conscious. And it is not so much what mind comprehends as what mind desires to comprehend that insures survival; it is not so much what mind is like as what mind is striving to be like that constitutes spirit identification. It is not so much that man is conscious of God as that man yearns for God that results in universe ascension. What you are today is not so important as what you are becoming day by day and in eternity.

 

In this paragraph we can get another glimpse that there really is two "selfs". There is the mortal self which will die when our human body dies. Then there is the soul identity or our (higher self) which will become the identity of our soul. Now as a map reader maybe you will appreciate this symbology. Picture our human consciousness as an hour glass, with a very tight bottleneck in the middle. Now if we picture this human, mortal self as the identity of our human consciousness that is at the bottom of the our glass we will notice that it gently rests upon the electromechanism below. We will also see that our higher self or our soul identity/self is located in the higher domain of our consciousness. That higher identity is our adjuster identity, its our god-likeness or adjuster-likeness self. This higher identity gets copied after death and becomes our soul identity. Our higher personal self will actually become our morontia self once we die. There really is 3 main aspects of us that survive death our adjuster identity (higher self), our soul and our personality.

 

 

 

 

111:1.4.Material evolution has provided you a life machine, your body; the Father himself has endowed you with the purest spirit reality known in the universe, your Thought Adjuster. But into your hands, subject to your own decisions, has been given mind, and it is by mind that you live or die. It is within this mind and with this mind that you make those moral decisions which enable you to achieve Adjusterlikeness, and that is Godlikeness.

 

 

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With all that in mind this quote should start to become a little clearer perhaps.

 

112:2.20.The material self, the ego-entity of human identity, is dependent during the physical life on the continuing function of the material life vehicle, on the continued existence of the unbalanced equilibrium of energies and intellect which, on Urantia, has been given the name life. But selfhood of survival value, selfhood that can transcend the experience of death, is only evolved by establishing a potential transfer of the seat of the identity of the evolving personality from the transient life vehicle—the material body—to the more enduring and immortal nature of the morontia soul and on beyond to those levels whereon the soul becomes infused with, and eventually attains the status of, spirit reality. This actual transfer from material association to morontia identification is effected by the sincerity, persistence, and steadfastness of the God-seeking decisions of the human creature.

 

]We transfer our identity/self from material identification, to morontia identification and that ensures survival. Of coarse that does not mean that all human beings who refused to be spiritual in this life to any degree are going to not resurrect on the mansion worlds. The mansion world life is an extension of this life, and all we need to survive this life is a "faint flicker of faith". Of coarse that does not mean people cannot die on the mansion worlds either.

 

216.3) 111:1.2 There is a cosmic unity in the several mind levels of the universe of universes. Intellectual selves have their origin in the cosmic mind much as nebulae take origin in the cosmic energies of universe space. On the human (hence personal) level of intellectual selves the potential of spirit evolution becomes dominant, with the assent of the mortal mind, because of the spiritual endowments of the human personality together with the creative presence of an entity-point of absolute value in such human selves. But such a spirit dominance of the material mind is conditioned upon two experiences: This mind must have evolved up through the ministry of the seven adjutant mind-spirits, and the material (personal) self must choose to co-operate with the indwelling Adjuster in creating and fostering the morontia self, the evolutionary and potentially immortal soul.

 

I think the hour glass analogy is great because not only is there a top and bottom area in the human consciousness where one part is on a electrochemical base and the top is on a spiritual base, but also this quote clearly shows that with the "assent of the mortal mind" we begin to develop a relationship with our adjuster. Also our mind must have "evolved UP through the ministry of the seven adjustants". There is a lot of symbolical words in the u.b that IMO are the revelators trying to get us to think literally about ascending upwards.

Edited by -Scott-
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There we go!

That's the quote, -Scott-

 

But selfhood of survival value, selfhood that can transcend the experience of death, is only evolved by establishing a potential transfer of the seat of the identity of the evolving personality from the transient life vehicle—the material body—to the more enduring and immortal nature of the morontia soul and on beyond to those levels whereon the soul becomes infused with, and eventually attains the status of, spirit reality.

 

That's it right there in a nutshell, for me.

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There we go!

That's the quote, -Scott-

 

 

 

That's it right there in a nutshell, for me.

 

Thats a great quote. It appears only a self that has its seat of identity on the spiritual level will survive. That quote may scare some readers, and they may think well what about friends and family who are atheists? Well the thing to also remember is that because all children are given thought adjusters, every human being has made a true morale choice. Those morale choices we made as kids created a higher self. So essentially almost all people have a higher self. Even if they grew up as hardcore materialists. Even if they are only functioning with their material seated self there is still that higher self waiting for them. Because there is no such thing as an iniquitous six year old.

 

The real jeopardy comes as mansion world students. We will not have an ignorant animal origin self to fall into. We will have to either go with the flow of what we are learning or cease to exist. However in this life we can hang our hat on the fact that ignorance really is not sin. It will be impossible to be ignorant of basic fundamental relationships on the mansion worlds though.

Edited by -Scott-
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