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Absonite

The Universal Mother

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Okay then, but you did say that the Infinite Mother Spirit and the Infinite Spirit are not the same. I guess what you meant, and did not say, is that they are the same entities but they are not the same in function. But that's okay because I think I'm getting a better idea of where you're coming from. So if we play out your logic, then every time TUB uses a certain name for the Third Person of Deity, they would have to be consistent in how they use it, always giving that title a certain function or characteristic. If you read all those quotes I offered in the I AM thread, you'll see that they interchange all the time. There's no consistency.

 

More or less I agree with all of that except the very last sentence. If you go through the urantia book you will notice that they do not serendipitously interchange these words, though I agree they do it often.

 

Scott, you failed to notice that they give the Creative Mother Spirit several names right there within the quote you offered. They call her: Divine Minister, Creative Spirit and local universe Mother Spirit. The term Divine Minister is simply the title given to the Creative Spirit in Satania.

 

No I noticed that, and there is a reason they interchange the way they do. I will show what I mean.

 

(374.4) 34:1.1 After the completion of the physical organization of a starry and planetary cluster and the establishment of the energy circuits by the superuniverse power centers, subsequent to this preliminary work of creation by the agencies of the Infinite Spirit, operating through, and under the direction of, his local universe creative focalization, there goes forth the proclamation of the Michael Son that life is next to be projected in the newly organized universe. Upon the Paradise recognition of this declaration of intention, there occurs a reaction of approval in the Paradise Trinity, followed by the disappearance in the spiritual shining of the Deities of the Master Spirit in whose superuniverse this new creation is organizing. Meanwhile the other Master Spirits draw near this central lodgment of the Paradise Deities, and subsequently, when the Deity-embraced Master Spirit emerges to the recognition of his fellows, there occurs what is known as a “primary eruption.” This is a tremendous spiritual flash, a phenomenon clearly discernible as far away as the headquarters of the superuniverse concerned; and simultaneously with this little-understood Trinity manifestation there occurs a marked change in the nature of the creative spirit presence and power of the Infinite Spirit resident in the local universe concerned. In response to these Paradise phenomena there immediately personalizes, in the very presence of the Creator Son, a new personal representation of the Infinite Spirit. This is the Divine Minister. The individualized Creative Spirit helper of the Creator Son has become his personal creative associate, the local universe Mother Spirit.

 

(375.1) 34:1.2 From and through this new personal segregation of the Conjoint Creator there proceed the established currents and the ordained circuits of spirit power and spiritual influence destined to pervade all the worlds and beings of that local universe. In reality, this new and personal presence is but a transformation of the pre-existent and less personal associate of the Son in his earlier work of physical universe organization.

 

Its not serendipity that they decide to change up their description of the Infinite Spirit here to the Conjoint Creator. “personal segregation of”….and they chose their words carefully “Conjoint Creator” (personality of the Infinite Spirit) of the Infinite Spirit. They refer to this aspect of the Infinite Spirit after the Creative Spirit is personalized. Also regarding the Creative Spirit I did not state that the Infinite Spirit is non-personal and so it happens neither is this Creative Spirit even before personalization. They are both (impersonal). In summary The Creative Spirit (impersonal) personalizes at this flash moment and than the author changes from speaking about the Infinite Spirit (impersonal) to the (personal) conjoint actor. The Creative Spirit becomes the Creative Mother Spirit and the Creative Mother Spirit can function in a ministry role, so one of her facets is ministry "Divine Minister", obviously we experience this personal ministry with the Holy Spirit.

 

the Creative Spirit is less personal. Well, there is either personality or no personality.

 

There is a 3rd option that is Impersonal. I said that the Infinite Spirit is the (impersonal) aspect. Impersonal is not personal and it is not non-personal. The thought adjuster is also impersonal. That is what the Creative Spirit is before she is personalized she is impersonal.

 

:4.3 The Conjoint Creator is absolute only in the domain of mind, in the realms of universal intelligence. The mind of the Third Source and Center is infinite; it utterly transcends the active and functioning mind circuits of the universe of universes.

I'd like to retract what I wrote above and rephrase it since it is ambiguous. In the quote, it says that the Conjoint Creator (Actor) is absolute in the domain of mind and that the mind of TSC is infinite. At first read, I thought that this might be an area of differentiation, but on further reading, it is not. This is again just another incidence of interchanging the terms used to describe TSC. The next quote states that the Infinite Spirit is also absolute in the domain of mind.

 

This paragraph does not go against anything I suggested in fact it highlights what I was saying. Absolute is not synonymous with Infinite. Absolute is a functional level below the Infinite. The Infinite transcends the Absolute. So either the urantia book authors made a mistake by stating that the Conjoint Creator is Absolute in mind while the Third Source and Center has Infinite mind. Or the Infinite Spirit spirit has access to two minds. Both an Absolute mind and an Infinite Mind because there is more than one facet to this being.

 

And in the next two quotes, the Conjoint Creator (Actor) is said to have infinite mind. It looks like TUB also interchanges the words absolute and infinite.

28:3.2 We possess many evidences of the actuality of the universal intelligence circuits of the Infinite Spirit, but even if we had no other proof, the reflective performances of the seconaphim would be quite sufficient to demonstrate the reality of the universal presence of the infinite mind of the Conjoint Actor.

 

The function of the beings in this paragraph (seconaphim) is to reflect on the nature of the 3rd source and center.......Look at the context of that sentence in the paragraph you took it from...

 

(307.4) 28:3.2 These seconaphim of the superuniverses are the offspring of the Reflective Spirits, and therefore reflectivity is inherent in their nature. They are reflectively responsive to all of each phase of every creature of origin in the THIRD SOURCE AND CENTER and the Paradise Creator Sons, but they are not directly reflective of the beings and entities, personal or otherwise, of sole origin in the First Source and Center. We possess many evidences of the actuality of the universal intelligence circuits of the Infinite Spirit, but even if we had no other proof, the reflective performances of the seconaphim would be quite sufficient to demonstrate the reality of the universal presence of the infinite mind of the Conjoint Actor.

 

“The mind of the Third Source and Center is infinite” Yet the Infinite Spirit is also the Third Source and Center so he has access to this mind.

 

 

 

8:6.3 The Infinite Spirit, the Third Person of Deity, is possessed of all the attributes which you associate with personality. The Spirit is endowed with absolute mind: "The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.

 

Yes I don’t disagree. The Infinite Spirit is also the 3rd person of deity. He can function personally, impersonally and non-personally if he wants to.

 

(375.1) 34:1.2 From and through this new personal segregation of the Conjoint Creator there proceed the established currents and the ordained circuits of spirit power and spiritual influence destined to pervade all the worlds and beings of that local universe. In reality, this new and personal presence is but a transformation of the pre-existent and less personal associate of the Son in his earlier work of physical universe organization.

If you look at this entire paragraph they talk about the infinite spirit and then to emphasis his personal nature they switch to calling him the Conjoint Creator.

 

8:2.2 The Third Source and Center is known by numerous titles: the Universal Spirit, the Supreme Guide, the Conjoint Creator, the Divine Executive, the Infinite Mind, the Spirit of Spirits, the Paradise Mother Spirit, the Conjoint Actor, the Final Co-ordinator, the Omnipresent Spirit, the Absolute Intelligence, the Divine Action; and on Urantia he is sometimes confused with the cosmic mind.
And these numerous titles are not arbitrary, this Deity is literally all of these things in more, these words are not just there for poetic reasons. Edited by -Scott-

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Scott is there an analogy we can draw from the Mystery Monitors, which emanate in different degrees, phases or manifestations: Thought Controllers, Thought Changers and Thought Adjusters.

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Scott is there an analogy we can draw from the Mystery Monitors, which emanate in different degrees, phases or manifestations: Thought Controllers, Thought Changers and Thought Adjusters.

 

I think whenever we see a being described with different words we should ask ourselves why the authors are doing this. I don't believe the Thought Adjuster has different manifestations though. But I think these words show that the Adjuster is not just a one trick poney. If you read the context in which those quotes come from I believe they explain it. Maybe we can start a new thread for that topic.

Edited by -Scott-
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The understanding that there are different facets to each Deity will help fit all the parts together in the u.b. For example The Trinity is Infinite. It is not Absolute. It is also not the combination of the 3 persons of deity. It is a super-addative entity that results from the combo of the 3 non-personal aspects of Deity.

 

1147.7) 104:3.15 The Paradise Trinity is not a triunity; it is not a functional unanimity; rather is it undivided and indivisible Deity. The Father, Son, and Spirit (as persons) can sustain a relationship to the Paradise Trinity, for the Trinity is their undivided Deity . The Father, Son, and Spirit sustain no such personal relationship to the first triunity, for that is their functional union as three persons. Only as the Trinity — as undivided Deity — do they collectively sustain an external relationship to the triunity of their personal aggregation.

 

(112.6) 10:4.3 The Trinity is an association of infinite persons functioning in a nonpersonal capacity but not in contravention of personality. The illustration is crude, but a father, son, and grandson could form a corporate entity which would be nonpersonal but nonetheless subject to their personal wills

 

Also regarding the Infinite Spirit. If we consider that the Conjoint Actor is a word to describe the personality facet of this being this entire sentence makes sense.

 

(112.8) 10:4.5 Ever remember that what the Infinite Spirit does is the function of the Conjoint Actor

Edited by -Scott-

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Something here still doesn't make complete sense to me.

 

The Third Source-Center is existential. Absolute.

 

Saying that the so-called "mother" aspect of the TSC comes from experience doesn't fit at all, to me. It seems to be confuing what goes on with the Creative Spirits of a local universe (who are experiental) with what goes on with the existential TSC.

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56:5.1 The oneness, the indivisibility, of Paradise Deity is existential and absolute. There are three eternal personalizations of Deity — the Universal Father, the Eternal Son, and the Infinite Spirit — but in the Paradise Trinity they are actually one Deity, undivided and indivisible.

 

56:9.4 To all personality intelligences of the grand universe the Paradise Trinity forever stands in finality, eternity, supremacy, and ultimacy and, for all practical purposes of personal comprehension and creature realization, as absolute.

 

104:3.16 Thus does the Paradise Trinity stand unique among absolute relationships; there are several existential triunities but only one existential Trinity.

 

The Trinity is existential and absolute. I don't understand how it can be interpreted any other way. However, there is a difference between the absolute Trinity and the Trinity Absolute, which is fodder for a different discussion. Perhaps a discussion about the difference between existential, experiential and existential-experiential would be useful?

 

Also The fact that mind ministers does not make it experiential on Paradise. Ministry is the built-in feature of mind like heat is a feature of fire. The mind of the TSC, Infinite Spirit, is existential, infinite and absolute. And the TSC doesn't have access to mind, he is the source of mind. In the next quote it says that TSC and the Conjoint Creator are both the source of mind. There can't be two sources, so that means that TSC and Conjoint Creator are one and the same. The titles are used interchangeably without any mention of function or personality.

 

9:55.5 Because the Third Person is the source of mind, do not presume to reckon that all phenomena of mind are divine. Human intellect is rooted in the material origin of the animal races. Universe intelligence is no more a true revelation of God who is mind than is physical nature a true revelation of the beauty and harmony of Paradise. Perfection is in nature, but nature is not perfect. The Conjoint Creator is the source of mind, but mind is not the Conjoint Creator.

 

42:10.7 On Paradise, mind is absolute; . . . . Paradise mind is beyond human understanding; it is existential, nonspatial, and nontemporal. Nevertheless, all of these levels of mind are overshadowed by the universal presence of the Conjoint Actor — by the mind-gravity grasp of the God of mind on Paradise.

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@Absonite The Infinite Spirit is actually present in the Central Universe, he does not just minister there this is his literal "retreat". The Central Universe is experiental as well. Mind is downstepped from the Absolute in Havona. The Infinite Spirit is not functioning at the same Absolute capacity he is on Paradise. He is also experiencing experiental reality.

 

 

161.7) 14:6.20 The Havona worlds are the mind laboratory of the creators of the cosmic mind and the ministers to every creature mind in existence. Mind is different on each Havona world and serves as the pattern for all spiritual and material creature intellects.

 

(161.8) 14:6.21 These perfect worlds are the mind graduate schools for all beings destined for Paradise society. They afforded the Spirit abundant opportunity to test out the technique of mind ministry on safe and advisory personalities.

 

(161.9) 14:6.22 Havona is a compensation to the Infinite Spirit for his widespread and unselfish work in the universes of space. Havona is the perfect home and retreat for the untiring Mind Minister of time and space.

 

It cannot get any more experiential than a laboratory and 'testing out the technique". The Infinite Spirit as well as the Eternal Son gain experiental experience in Havona.

 

 

Bonita: And the TSC doesn't have access to mind, he is the source of mind. In the next quote it says that TSC and the Conjoint Creator are both the source of mind. There can't be two sources, so that means that TSC and Conjoint Creator are one and the same

I know they the same being I never said they were not. Here is a better analogy mind can be downsteped at each functional level. The highest functional level of reality is the Infinite (Infinite Mind) (TSC). That mind can be downstepped from the Infinite, to the Absolute, and than to the Absonite, and than even further down. The Infinite Spirit can be the source of Absolute mind and Infinite mind and even Absonite mind. Because Deity can downstep itself and in the quotes I provided above the Infinite Spirit can literally downstep himself into the Absonite (Central Universe). This Deity can exist in more than one level of functional reality at the same time.

 

 

Going by the model of the Conjoint Actor/Creator as the personality aspect of the Infinite Spirit, we would expect it to not be mind...

 

55.5 Because the Third Person is the source of mind, do not presume to reckon that all phenomena of mind are divine. Human intellect is rooted in the material origin of the animal races. Universe intelligence is no more a true revelation of God who is mind than is physical nature a true revelation of the beauty and harmony of Paradise. Perfection is in nature, but nature is not perfect. The Conjoint Creator is the source of mind, but mind is not the Conjoint Creator.

 

The Trinity is existential and absolute. I don't understand how it can be interpreted any other way.

 

 

 

 

10:5.7.The Trinity Infinite involves the co-ordinate action of all triunity relationships of the First Source and Center—undeified as well as deified—and hence is very difficult for personalities to grasp. In the contemplation of the Trinity as infinite, do not ignore the seven triunities; thereby certain difficulties of understanding may be avoided, and certain paradoxes may be partially resolved.

 

Though the Trinity may also be Absolute as well as Infinite....Not sure yet..

 

Here is a quote about how the Infinite is a functional level.

 

- (0:3.24) The Infinite is used to denote the fullness—the finality—implied by the primacy of the First Source and Center. The theoretical I AM is a creature-philosophic extension of the "infinity of will," but the Infinite is an actual value-level representing the eternity-intension of the true infinity of the absolute and unfettered free will of the Universal Father. This concept is sometimes designated the Father-Infinite

Edited by -Scott-

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I think this quote proves that all the names give to the Third Source and Center are not serindipity. They are "designative" names in "recognition of function" and "relationship"

 

 

(98.6) 9:1.1 The Third Source and Center is known by many names, all designative of relationship and in recognition of function: As God the Spirit, he is the personality co-ordinate and divine equal of God the Son and God the Father. As the Infinite Spirit, he is an omnipresent spiritual influence. As the Universal Manipulator, he is the ancestor of the power-control creatures and the activator of the cosmic forces of space. As the Conjoint Actor, he is the joint representative and partnership executive of the Father-Son. As the Absolute Mind, he is the source of the endowment of intellect throughout the universes. As the God of Action, he is the apparent ancestor of motion, change, and relationship.

 

So all the designations here are: God the Spirit, Infinite Spirit, Universal Manipulator, Conjoint Actor, Absolute Mind, God of Action. Its the same pattern for all other beings in the Urantia Book. There is never a name tossed in the title of a being that is placed serendipitously. The U.B authors are always hinting at something.

Edited by -Scott-

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Scott, According to the quote you offered, God the Spirit is the personality of the TSC, not the Conjoint Actor as you stated before. So which one is it?

 

The quote you offered states the Universal Manipulator is the activator of cosmic forces, yet in the following quote we are told that it is the Conjoint Actor. So which one is it?

 

9:01 Nothing in this eternity situation foreshadows that the Conjoint Actor would personalize as an unlimited spirituality co-ordinated with absolute mind and endowed with unique prerogatives of energy manipulation.

 

The quote you offered states the Conjoint Actor is the partnership executive of the Father and Son, yet in the following quote we are told that it is the Infinite Spirit. So which one is it?

 

7:02 The Son is like the Father in that he seeks to bestow everything possible of himself upon his co-ordinate Sons and upon their subordinate Sons. And the Son shares the Father's self-distributive nature in the unstinted bestowal of himself upon the Infinite Spirit, their conjoint executive.

 

The quote you offered states that the TSC is the Absolute Mind, yet in the following quote we are told that both the Conjoint Actor and the Infinite Spirit are absolute mind. So which one is it?

 

3:1.8 The mind presence of God is correlated with the absolute mind of the Conjoint Actor, the Infinite Spirit, but in the finite creations it is better discerned in the everywhere functioning of the cosmic mind of the Paradise Master Spirits.

 

The quote you offered states that the TSC is the God of Action, yet in the following quote we are told that the Conjoint Actor is the God of Action. So which one is it?

 

105:3.5 This selfsame Conjoint Actor, this God of Action, is the perfect expression of the limitless plans and purposes of the Father-Son while functioning himself as the source of mind and the bestower of intellect upon the creatures of a far-flung cosmos.

 

TUB definitely uses these terms interchangeably.

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(98.6) 9:1.1 The Third Source and Center is known by many names, all designative of relationship and in recognition of function: As God the Spirit, he is the personality co-ordinate and divine equal of God the Son and God the Father. As the Infinite Spirit, he is an omnipresent spiritual influence. As the Universal Manipulator, he is the ancestor of the power-control creatures and the activator of the cosmic forces of space. As the Conjoint Actor, he is the joint representative and partnership executive of the Father-Son. As the Absolute Mind, he is the source of the endowment of intellect throughout the universes. As the God of Action, he is the apparent ancestor of motion, change, and relationship.

Scott, According to the quote you offered, God the Spirit is the personality of the TSC, not the Conjoint Actor as you stated before. So which one is it?

Its not either or. Its both. God the spirit is an all inclusive term like the I AM. God is one, “there is none beside him”. God the Spirit and God the Father and God the Spirit are all God. They are giving a all inclusive unity viewpoint. God the Spirit is just one face of God. God the Spirit term includes all the aspects of the Infinite Spirit. The authors will often give us a Unity type viewpoint and a individuality type viewpoint. Spirit is Unity. Individuality is personality.

The quote you offered states the Universal Manipulator is the activator of cosmic forces, yet in the following quote we are told that it is the Conjoint Actor. So which one is it?

9:01 Nothing in this eternity situation foreshadows that the Conjoint Actor would personalize as an unlimited spirituality co-ordinated with absolute mind and endowed with unique prerogatives of energy manipulation.

Endowed with unique perogatives of energy manipulation” is not the same as the Conjoint Actor IS Universal Manipulator. The Conjoint Actor can act as a Universal Manipulator, because the Conjoint Actor is the personality of the Infinite Spirit. It can also be both it does not have to be one or the other. The personality of this being can function AS the facets of his being, because they are him and he is them.

The quote you offered states the Conjoint Actor is the partnership executive of the Father and Son, yet in the following quote we are told that it is the Infinite Spirit. So which one is it?

7:02 The Son is like the Father in that he seeks to bestow everything possible of himself upon his co-ordinate Sons and upon their subordinate Sons. And the Son shares the Father's self-distributive nature in the unstinted bestowal of himself UPON the Infinite Spirit, their conjoint executive.

The Father and Son conjoined and placed their conjoined personality UPON the Infinite Spirit. The Father and Son literally placed Personality UPON a Spirit, and not just any spirit but UPON The Infinite Spirit.

The quote you offered states that the TSC is the Absolute Mind, yet in the following quote we are told that both the Conjoint Actor and the Infinite Spirit are absolute mind. So which one is it?

3:1.8 The mind presence of God is correlated with the absolute mind of the Conjoint Actor, the Infinite Spirit, but in the finite creations it is better discerned in the everywhere functioning of the cosmic mind of the Paradise Master Spirits.

This quote does not say that the Conjoint IS Absolute Mind it says “the absolute mind OF the conjoint Actor” Which just fits with someone describing a personality who has a mind. They would say the mind Of (said personality).

The quote you offered states that the TSC is the God of Action, yet in the following quote we are told that the Conjoint Actor is the God of Action. So which one is it?

105:3.5 This selfsame Conjoint Actor, this God of Action, is the perfect expression of the limitless plans and purposes of the Father-Son while functioning himself as the source of mind and the bestower of intellect upon the creatures of a far-flung cosmos.

Here is an example of the author giving us two perspectives. The unity perspective (God of Action) and the individuality perspective (Conjoint Actor). Both perspectives are correct they do not cancel each other out.

(93.3) 8:3.1 As the Eternal Son is the word expression of the “first” absolute and infinite thought of the Universal Father, so the Conjoint Actor is the perfect execution of the “first” completed creative concept or plan for combined action by the Father-Son personality partnership of absolute thought-word union.

Father-Son personality partnership--->>> Conjoint Actor

 

8.3.5 the moment the ascension project became a Father-Son plan, that instant the Infinite Spirit became the conjoint administrator of the Father and the Son for the execution of their united and eternal purpose

 

Infinite Spirit (impersonal)-->>>Administrator

 

Again I am not saying the authors are saying the Conjoint Actor is some how not involved in administration. Its just they highlight that aspect of the Conjoint Actor on purpose.

 

(95.2) 8:4.7 The Conjoint Creator is truly and forever the great ministering personality, the universal mercy minister

 

Conjoint Creator--->> Universal Creator + The Eternal Son as a Creator.

 

Paper 6. Personality ofthe Infinite Spirit

 

Notice they did not say (Personality of the Conjoint Actor)

 

96.6) 8:6.4 “The love of the Spirit” is real, as also are his sorrows; therefore “Grieve not the Spirit of God.” Whether we observe the Infinite Spirit as Paradise Deity or as a local universe Creative Spirit, we find that the Conjoint Creator is not only the Third Source and Center but also a divine person.

 

Conjoint Creator---> person

 

Something I need to clarify from before (Infinite Spirit)--> Absolute mind. Yet has an Infinite resevoire of mind.(infinity of mind).

Edited by -Scott-

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I don't even know how this issue is debatable after reading this paragraph. Regardless of any posts I have made on this subject.

 

98.6) 9:1.1 The Third Source and Center is known by many names, all designative of relationship and in recognition of function: As God the Spirit, he is the personality co-ordinate and divine equal of God the Son and God the Father. As the Infinite Spirit, he is an omnipresent spiritual influence. As the Universal Manipulator, he is the ancestor of the power-control creatures and the activator of the cosmic forces of space. As the Conjoint Actor, he is the joint representative and partnership executive of the Father-Son. As the Absolute Mind, he is the source of the endowment of intellect throughout the universes. As the God of Action, he is the apparent ancestor of motion, change, and relationship.

 

Hopefully we can all start to have a discussion about the different aspects of each deity, instead of arguing whether or not they even have these different aspects. Its not like the Infinite Spirit is a stick man who stands in the center of Paradise. This being literally spans distances past Paradise, past the Central Universe where he ministers and even into outer space and even beyond all outer space levels. Its a dynamic being that is very complex.

Edited by -Scott-

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The Infinite Mother Spirit is not in that list.

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Hopefully we can all start to have a discussion about the different aspects of each deity, instead of arguing whether or not they even have these different aspects.

 

Scott, no one is arguing about Deity having different aspects and attributes. You're the one arguing against the fact that TUB uses names for a Deity's attributes interchangeably. Why I don't know, because the evidence is extremely clear to me. But if you want to insist that a given name for the TSC always represents the same given aspect of that Deity, then by all means believe that. I don't know many others that take your stance, but you're entitled to it. However, it does make it very difficult to communicate if you interpret these names so rigidly. At least do me the favor of explaining exactly what Deity and attribute of Deity you're referring to when you post, otherwise it's way too confusing. So on that note, I won't waste another moment trying to convince you that these names are all interchangeable, so please don't waste another moment of your time trying to convince me otherwise. My mind is made up on this subject and I'd like to move on to what you think a metaphorical or figurative mother is all about.

 

Do you have any insight on why TUB refers to both the Eternal Son and the Supreme Being as the Universal Mother?

 

This quote is referring to the Eternal Son, the SSC, as the Universal Mother:

 

6:8.1 Concerning identity, nature, and other attributes of personality, the Eternal Son is the full equal, the perfect complement, and the eternal counterpart of the Universal Father. In the same sense that God is the Universal Father, the Son is the Universal Mother. And all of us, high and low, constitute their universal family.

 

Then this next quote refers to the Supreme Being as the Universal Mother:

 

117:6.5 The morontia soul of an evolving mortal is really the son of the Adjuster action of the Universal Father and the child of the cosmic reaction of the Supreme Being, the Universal Mother.

 

Universal motherhood would be an attribute of Deity, yet that attribute can be had by more than one Deity and they can share the same title. How can that be? Do you think that TUB uses these titles interchangeably rather than rigidly? Do you think that they do that because they are speaking metaphorically about a certain attribute of Deity? Do you think that TUB is being figurative rather than literal?

 

Its not like the Infinite Spirit is a stick man who stands in the center of Paradise. This being literally spans distances past Paradise, past the Central Universe where he ministers and even into outer space and even beyond all outer space levels. Its a dynamic being that is very complex.

 

The Third Person of the ParadiseTrinity, the Infinite Spirit, never leaves the Central Universe. Ministry to the superuniverses is what the offspring of the TSC are for. The personal influence of the Infinite Spirit exists only in the Central Universe. The omnipresence of the Infinite Spirit is accomplished through the Seven Master Spirits and further down through the agencies of the Creative Spirits, but not directly. We do not encounter the personality of the Infinite Spirit until we ascend to the Central Universe.

 

16:2.2 The Infinite Spirit exerts an influence of personal presence within the confines of the Paradise-Havona system; elsewhere his personal spirit presence is exerted by and through one of the Seven Master Spirits. Therefore is the superuniverse spirit presence of the Third Source and Center on any world or in any individual conditioned by the unique nature of the supervisory Master Spirit of that segment of creation.

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Do you have any insight on why TUB refers to both the Eternal Son and the Supreme Being as the Universal Mother?

 

This quote is referring to the Eternal Son, the SSC, as the Universal Mother:

 

6:8.1 Concerning identity, nature, and other attributes of personality, the Eternal Son is the full equal, the perfect complement, and the eternal counterpart of the Universal Father. In the same sense that God is the Universal Father, the Son is the Universal Mother. And all of us, high and low, constitute their universal family.

 

Then this next quote refers to the Supreme Being as the Universal Mother:

 

117:6.5 The morontia soul of an evolving mortal is really the son of the Adjuster action of the Universal Father and the child of the cosmic reaction of the Supreme Being, the Universal Mother.

 

Universal motherhood would be an attribute of Deity, yet that attribute can be had by more than one Deity and they can share the same title. How can that be? Do you think that TUB uses these titles interchangeably rather than rigidly? Do you think that they do that because they are speaking metaphorically about a certain attribute of Deity? Do you think that TUB is being figurative rather than literal?

 

Okay I think there two main types of Deity, Father type deity and mother type deity. The Creator Son being father type and the Creative Mother Spirit being Mother type. The authors actually describe our Creator son as Father-Son diety and the Creative Mother Spirit as Spirit-Mother. Its essentially a parallel designation in the same sense of Father-Son. With all 4 of these Deity attributes in play IMO these two beings represent all types of diety.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

37:0.1.AT THE head of all personality in Nebadon stands the Creator and Master Son, Michael, the universe father and sovereign. Co-ordinate in divinity and complemental in creative attributes is the local universe Mother Spirit, the Divine Minister of Salvington. And these creators are in a very literal sense the Father-Son and the Spirit-Mother of all the native creatures of Nebadon.

 

 

The Creative Spirit wasn't called a "Spirit Mother" before she had that personalization where she "flashed". The process it took for her transform into this new being needed the 7 Master Spirits, and we know the 7 master spirits when together represent the Trinity. So IMO the Trinity distributes this type of Deity. Also when describing this process they refer to it as a "Trinity manifestation".

This is a tremendous spiritual flash, a phenomenon clearly discernible as far away as the headquarters of the superuniverse concerned; and simultaneously with this little-understood Trinity manifestation there occurs a marked change in the nature of the creative spirit presence and power of the Infinite Spirit resident in the local universe concerned.

 

So I believe that this Mother type Deity is from the Trinity. We know the personality of the Supreme which the authors have called God the Mother is from the Trinity as well.

 

Anyways this is just one clue in the book about this mysterious mother deity. I don't believe there is any part in the book where they clearly explain any of it. IMO they don't because they want us to experientaly discover just what experiental deity is. As strange as that is.

 

Anyways back to the main topic. They use this word "universal mother" twice for two different beings. Believe it or not I think if we break down the word Universe we can get even more hints about this type of deity. Also what is interesting is that Paradise is not refered to as a Universe in the u.b but the Central Universe is.

 

Uni-One, Verse-turning. So (One-turning). The Central Universe is not a sector or anything but it is (One) turning. We know our Universe there is an individuality of the whole and that is the Supreme. Well (So-below-as-above). The Central Universe must have its own individuality. There is the Infinite Mother Spirit and the Mother-Son or Universal Mother who is the Eternal Son. This Mother type diety is experiental just like it is with the Supreme and how she is referred to as God the Mother. There is an added on mother type deity to these beings which is experiental deity.

 

When there is a Uni-verse (cosmic system). There is a "whole", and whenever there is a whole there appears to be an individuality of the "whole".

 

 

1 - (112:1.17) But the concept of the personality as the meaning of the whole of the living and functioning creature means much more than the integration of relationships; it signifies the unification of all factors of reality as well as co-ordination of relationships. Relationships exist between two objects, but three or more objects eventuate a system, and such a system is much more than just an enlarged or complex relationship. This distinction is vital, for in a cosmic system the individual members are not connected with each other except in relation to the whole and through the individuality of the whole.

 

The Central Universe is referred to in the u.b as a "pattern universe" for our created Universe. So it only makes sense that because there is a Mother-Spirit and Father-Son type deity basically working together, that this relationship would also be true for the Central Universe. IMO the Infinite Mother Spirit is basically following the similar pattern of being that the Creative Spirit functions in on her world, and the Eternal Son is participating as well in experiental reality, but perhaps not to the same same extreme degree as the Infinite Spirit. Since the Infinite Spirit and the Eternal Son are engaging the "whole" of this Universe, they experience the individuality of the "whole" and that is an experiental aquirement. Well I am off to work, I would post more, but duty calls. I will try and clear up this post later tonight.

Edited by -Scott-

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Guest EEB aka AASB-AWSW

This topic seems to be taking on the same aspect as the following, greatest routine in history, which by the way gives an example of how the conjoint actor interacts with us. If one makes note of the actual routine, you can see how this topic is actually playing out.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M&feature=player_embedded

Edited by EEB aka AASB-AWSW
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Scott,

IMO the Infinite Mother Spirit is basically following the similar pattern of being that the Creative Spirit functions in on her world, and the Eternal Son is participating as well in experiental reality, but perhaps not to the same same extreme degree the Infinite Spirit.

 

I think you meant that the Creative Spirit is following the pattern of the Infinite Mother Spirit, not the other way around. The Creative Spirits of the seven superuniverses of time and space are daughters of the Infinite Mother Spirit who resides in Paradise.

 

The Isle of Paradise is at the center of all creation. The Isle of Paradise is circled by three concentric rings of satellite spheres, 7 in each circuit, 21 in total. The innermost circuit spheres are of the Universal Father, the middle are of the Eternal Son and the outer circuit contains the spheres of the Infinite Spirit which are the headquarters for each of the Seven Master Spirits. Next comes the Central Universe which is located outside of the Isle of Paradise and its surrounding rings of 21 satellite spheres. Another name for the Central Universe is Havona. It contains one billion inhabited spheres in seven concentric circuits orbiting clockwise. Surrounding Havona and hiding it from view are the counter rotating dark gravity bodies, the inner belt rotating counterclockwise the outer belt rotating clockwise. Outside of all of this are the seven superuniverses.

 

The Isle of Paradise is the abode for the Paradise Trinity, of which the Infinite Spirit is a member (known by a myriad of names and titles). The personal influence of the Infinite Spirit is contained within the Central Universe. His influence outside of the Central Universe, past those dark gravity bodies, is in the Seven Master Spirits.

 

Scott, the word mother does not mean experiential. It means source, genesis, point of origination. I'll repeat this again: None of the members of the Trinity are experiential. That means that the Universal Father, the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit, regardless of what name or title you chose to give them, are all existential. The Supreme is experiential, but not the Trinity or any of its members.

 

Think of the word existential as a synonym for perfect and/or complete and experiential as a synonym for imperfect and/or incomplete. The Trinity cannot be imperfect or incomplete, therefore it cannot be experiential. The Supreme is incomplete, therefore it is experiential. Does that make any sense?

 

0:1.18 Divinity may be perfect — complete — as on existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of time-space evolution; or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona levels of existential-experiential relationships.

Edited by Bonita

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God the 7-fold is creature identifying diety. Creatures are not existential.Also I never said that mother diety is the Trinity. Havona is the "pattern universe" of the 7 super universes. Whenever there is a "whole" there is a individuality of the whole. The individuality of the "whole" in the super universes is the mother. So yes the Creative Mother Spirit is patterned after the Infinite Mother Spirit.

 

You say that the supreme is experiental because it is incomplete. Yet Havona is complete and it is a experiental universe....

Edited by -Scott-

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What exactly do you mean by experiential, -Scott-?

 

 

And please - don't quote me either the UB or a dictionary.

In your own words, I want to know what you mean by that word when you use it.

 

 

Because right now, it's almost as if you're speaking another language here.

 

Seriously.

Edited by Absonite
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You say that the supreme is experiental because it is incomplete. Yet Havona is complete and it is a experiental universe....

 

So you think Havona is experiential huh? Then are these quotes spreading untruths?

 

116:0.3 Experiential growth implies creature-Creator partnership — God and man in association. Growth is the earmark of experiential Deity: Havona did not grow; Havona is and always has been; it is existential like the everlasting Gods who are its source.

 

32:3.1 Havona is an existential, perfect, and replete universe, surrounding the home of the eternal Deities, the center of all things. The creations of the seven superuniverses are finite, evolutionary, and consistently progressive.

I agree with Absonite that you aren't making sense. Sometimes it seems that you're reading a different book

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What exactly do you mean by experiential, -Scott-?

 

 

And please - don't quote me either the UB or a dictionary.

In your own words, I want to know what you mean by that word when you use it.

 

 

Because right now, it's almost as if you're speaking another language here.

 

Seriously.

 

 

Tell me where I have went wrong?? I see both you and Bonita think that the Central Universe is just Existential. In which case I never said it wasn't existential. But its also an experiential universe. I like Bonita's method of using quotes because it seems to work slightly better than writing out thoughts, so after this long winded post that shows Havona is existential and experiential I will answer any questions you have in my own words.

 

Regarding Havona natives...

 

 

 

4:4.14.Havoners have both optional present and future unrevealed destinies. And there is a progression of native creatures that is peculiar to the central universe, a progression that involves neither ascent to Paradise nor penetration of the superuniverses. This progression to higher Havona status may be suggested as follows:

14:4.15.1. Experiential progress outward from the first to the seventh circuit.

 

Regarding mind on Havona...

 

3 - (42:10.7) On Paradise, mind is absolute; in Havona, absonite; in Orvonton, finite. Mind always connotes the presence-activity of living ministry plus varied energy systems, and this is true of all levels and of all kinds of mind. But beyond the cosmic mind it becomes increasingly difficult to portray the relationships of mind to nonspiritual energy. Havona mind is subabsolute but superevolutionary; being existential-experiential, it is nearer the absonite than any other concept revealed to you. Paradise mind is beyond human understanding; it is existential, nonspatial, and nontemporal. Nevertheless, all of these levels of mind are overshadowed by the universal presence of the Conjoint Actor—by the mind-gravity grasp of the God of mind on Paradise.

 

 

 

5. Life in Havona 13 - (0:7.4) 2. Experiential—beings actualizing in the post-Havona present but of unending existence throughout all future eternity.

 

 

 

 

0:1.18.Divinity may be perfect—complete—as on existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of time-space evolution; or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona levels of existential-experiential relationships.

 

 

Now that I feel that I have established that the Central Universe is not just Existential but also Experiential. Hopefully I can move on to the topic about how its possible for the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit to directly experience experiential reality. The Urantia Book calls this aspect of God (God the 7-fold). Its through God the 7-fold that these Diety can directly experience experiental reality.

 

These quotes are taken from the papers describing god the 7-fold

 

 

118:0.1.CONCERNING the several natures of Deity, it may be said: 118:0.8.7. The Absolute is existential-experiential self.

 

 

 

118:0.13.Each successive universe age is the antechamber of the following era of cosmic growth, and each universe epoch provides immediate destiny for all preceding stages. Havona, in and of itself, is a perfect, but perfection-limited, creation; Havona perfection, expanding out into the evolutionary superuniverses, finds not only cosmic destiny but also liberation from the limitations of pre-evolutionary existence.

 

 

Regarding the Trinity which is where Havona natives come from..

 

 

14:4.10.The Havona natives are all the offspring of the Paradise Trinity

 

 

 

 

35 - (0:12.9) The philosophers of the universes postulate a Trinity of Trinities, an existential-experiential Trinity Infinite..

 

 

(0:1.18) Divinity may be perfect—complete—as on existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of time-space evolution; or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona levels of existential-experiential relationships.

 

 

3 - (0:1.14) Deity may be existential, as in the Eternal Son; experiential, as in the Supreme Being; associative, as in God the Sevenfold; undivided, as in the Paradise Trinity.

associative like (existential-experiental) type associative.

 

 

Associative... (existential-experiental)

 

 

And finally we find that the Infinite Spirit is present in this Universe as the Infinite Mother Spirit.

 

 

14:6.34.The Universe Mother Creator remembers Paradise and Havona as the place of her origin and the home of the Infinite Mother Spirit, the abode of the personality presence of the Infinite Mind.

Edited by -Scott-
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I'm sorry, -Scott-

At this point I truly cannot make any sense of what you're talking about.

 

Quoting the UB doesn't help.

Quoting a dictionary won't help.

 

What I need to begin to see that your making any sort of sense here at all here - that you're not just randomly using words without any regard to meaning - is to know what exactly YOU mean by the word *experiential* as YOU have been using it in this conversation.

 

No more quotes, please.

They're not helping at all.

Edited by Absonite

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I'm sorry, -Scott-

At this point I truly cannot make any sense of what you're talking about.

 

Well I can explain a bit here. 1st Bonita did not believe that the authors used designations for different facets of Deity. So I provided quotes that show that they are in fact doing this. I even found a quote that states this directly. Then Bonita stated that the Central Universe was just Existential so I went and found quotes that disprove that notion. I would have gotten to your question more directly if all these tangents wouldn't have came up. I also would answer in my own words but Bonita is going to rail off a thousand quotes every time I do, so I thought I would return the favor.

 

I am trying to get around to the subject you asked about though. Does this make sense?

 

Experiential in my own words: Deriving something from experience.

Edited by -Scott-

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I think I get the gist of what Scott is claiming. The Central world also is experiential seeing as its own indigenous population is "experiencing" life through the circuits. Basically, some of this information is implied or inferred, and not directly given. You have to delve somewhat beyond the literal understanding of the text to catch it.

 

It stands to reason that the very shores the Central deities stand on facilitate this experiential existence. And if that world conducive to experiential reality besides the existential then it is safe to assume that those deities are having some kind of central universe experience. How? Personally, I am not sure but I would venture to say perhaps they avail themselves of this experience through their Central Universe children.

 

BB

Edited by brooklyn_born

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Scott, what you're calling experiential on Havona is not Havona. You're describing life and personality relationships which are present on Havona. I'm not talking about what goes on there. I'm talking about Havona. Heck, we're all going to be there someday. Havona can be populated by non-existential beings, but Havona, itself, is existential. Don't you see how tangential your thinking is? There's absolutely nothing in TUB that says that Havona is anything other than existential. All of your quotes are about something else, most of them completely unrelated. It's mind boggling to me and I am not gifted enough to help you understand what you're doing. Maybe you can read these quotes again and instead of running off trying to disprove them, let them soak in. What is there to argue with here? It's black and white, clear as clear can be. Nothing to dispute. Havona is existential. Sheesh.

 

116:0.3 Experiential growth implies creature-Creator partnership — God and man in association. Growth is the earmark of experiential Deity: Havona did not grow; Havona is and always has been; it is existential like the everlasting Gods who are its source.

 

32:3.1 Havona is an existential, perfect, and replete universe, surrounding the home of the eternal Deities, the center of all things. The creations of the seven superuniverses are finite, evolutionary, and consistently progressive.

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Scott posted this reference but I think it should be reinforced on the thread. It brings a level of clarity to the discussion that is well needed...

 

0:1.18 Divinity may be perfect -- complete -- as on existential and creator levels of

Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of timespace

evolution; or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona

levels of existential-experiential relationships.

 

So is it safe to say the DIVINITY of the Paradise Deities is based in existential-experiential relationships as noted in their divine children, denizens of Havona (rhetorical ;-)) Perhaps, Scott, you need to throw in the word "Divinity" as an appellation to the Deities when qualifying them as Experiential beings, yes?

 

BB

Edited by brooklyn_born

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