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Midsoniter woman

UB Stuff in Book of Mormon

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According to my understanding Joseph Smith did NOT claim the Book of Mormon was any revelation - he claims to have discovered the golden plates and he "interpreted or translated" them into english. He did claim later revelations, some of which were written - but not the core Mormon text. I have known many good and faithful Mormons and RLDS too and many teachings are closer to the realities presented in the 5th than many other christian religions. Perhaps I am mistaken about the Book of Mormon?

 

It is interesting that Mormons are taught that a "tribe of Israel" came by boat to South America as the Andites did indeed do.

 

Actually, the Book of Mormon (BOM) teaches that a single family, expanded by marriage and circumstance with a few additional men and women, were led by the Family Patriach out of the lands of Jerusalem, into the wilderness, and eventually to the Americas. Here is a summary from the Book of Mormon, itself:

 

"An account of Lehi and his wife Sariah, and his four sons, being called, (beginning at the eldest) Laman, Lemuel, Sam, and Nephi. The Lord warns Lehi to depart out of the land of Jerusalem, because he prophesieth unto the people concerning their iniquity and they seek to destroy his life. He taketh three days' journey into the wilderness with his family. Nephi taketh his brethren and returneth to the land of Jerusalem after the record of the Jews. The account of their sufferings. They take the daughters of Ishmael to wife. They take their families and depart into the wilderness. Their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness. The course of their travels. They come to the large waters. Nephi's brethren rebel against him. He confoundeth them, and buildeth a ship. They call the name of the place Bountiful. They cross the large waters into the promised land, and so forth. This is according to the account of Nephi; or in other words, I, Nephi, wrote this record."

 

The story that individuals and families were led by prophetic warnings and revelations to leave a place of threat or danger and go into a safer, more promising land is not new to the Mormon faith, nor is it unknown to readers of TUB. Remember Adam & the Second Garden, for example?

 

The belief that the Book of Mormon is another Testimony of Jesus Christ should not overly worry readers of TUB; and of a truth, Latter Day Saints (Mormons) should not have a problem with the understanding that TUB is a revelation from God. Let me show you, from within the BOM itself just why.

 

[ BOM; Moroni 7:15-16 ] "For behold, my brethren, it is given unto you to judge, that ye may know good from evil; and the way to judge is as plain, that ye may know with a perfect knowledge, as the daylight is from the dark night. For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God."

 

[ BOM; Moroni 7:17-18 ] "But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him. And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged."

 

[ BOM; Moroni 7:19 ] "Wherefore, I beseech of you, brethren, that ye should search diligently in the light of Christ that ye may know good from evil; and if ye will lay hold upon every good thing, and condemn it not, ye certainly will be a child of Christ."

 

[ BOM; Moroni 7:22-26 ] "For behold, God knowing all things, being from everlasting to everlasting, behold, he sent angels to minister unto the children of men, to make manifest concerning the coming of Christ; and in Christ there should come every good thing. And God also declared unto prophets, by his own mouth, that Christ should come. And behold, there were divers ways that he did manifest things unto the children of men, which were good; and all things which are good cometh of Christ; otherwise men were fallen, and there could no good thing come unto them. Wherefore, by the ministering of angels, and by every word which proceeded forth out of the mouth of God, men began to exercise faith in Christ; and thus by faith, they did lay hold upon every good thing; and thus it was until the coming of Christ. And after that he came men also were saved by faith in his name; and by faith, they become the sons of God."

 

These quotes from the text of the BOM clearly support the coming forth of the Urantia Book! They give faithful men and women tools to discern good from evil; and they encourage folks to find & adopt good and truth into their own lives. I know the Urantia Book is good, true, and beautiful! I know it seeks to "...inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ..." and is therefore "...is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ..." to our world!

 

I rejoice in the harmony between the Book of Mormon and the Urantia Book. That harmony and encouragement is a wonderful example of some of the good that should be sought out and adopted by all believers in God, from wherever it should be found.

Edited by JR Sherrod
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I've just viewed the Len video! I was struck by his personal persistent quest for truth, his belief in a 'new bible', his correlations with the UB, his kindness,

his down-to-earthness, and his total belief in personal religious freedom!!! I am also struck by how he gives credit where credit is due - especially to organized religions. It made me ponder that we among the 1st receipients are truly revolutionaries - yet, also realizing that the UB is firmly seeded around the world and is continuing to be so. To me this has occurred with amazing light speed! Perhaps, just perhaps, we are on the verge of a marvelous new era. I even think that unconsciously it has arrived - that many of current catastrophies are in reality drawing mankind together - that mass knowledge offered by the internet age will push us even further. I just wanted to say thank you.

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There are many similarities between the Urantia Book and Mormon doctrine. Could it be that the Urantia Book is the "greater record to come" as foretold in the Book of Mormon? Could it even be that the Urantia Book was given as to correct where Joseph Smith's followers went wrong? The biggest difference I see between the Urantia Book and Mormonism is that while the Urantia Book emphasizes a personal relationship with the divine, Mormonism is an exacting institutional religion.

Edited by Howard509

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Could it even be that the Urantia Book was given as to correct where Joseph Smith's followers went wrong? __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ The Urantia Book is the fifth epochal revelation. Smith had a peak experience, probably similar to many other prophets, see-ers, visionaries and other truth seekers. David Koresh may have had a peak experience as well. Some do much better than others. The fifth is proportional to the fourth - don't you think?

 

I am not certain where Joseph Smith's followers went wrong??

Edited by Nelson G

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I am not certain where Joseph Smith's followers went wrong??

 

The biggest difference I see between the Urantia Book and Mormonism is that while the Urantia Book emphasizes a personal relationship with the divine, Mormonism is an exacting institutional religion.

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The biggest difference I see between the Urantia Book and Mormonism is that while the Urantia Book emphasizes a personal relationship with the divine, Mormonism is an exacting institutional religion.

 

 

What is wrong with that?

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The biggest difference I see between the Urantia Book and Mormonism is that while the Urantia Book emphasizes a personal relationship with the divine, Mormonism is an exacting institutional religion.

 

 

What is wrong with that?

 

From what I've heard, many people are disfellowshipped from the LDS for not agreeing on even trivial points of doctrine.

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My memory says it is called excommunication.

I did not think that they took action like that so lightly over a disagreement but it may be the case. Maybe the Mormons on board can expand on this.

The fact is however, when people join, they make agreements and committments.

Break the agreement and action like that should be expected.

 

I cannot find the quote from TUB but it was when Jesus was in a shop and a worker was complaining about his boss. Jesus inspired the worker to educate his boss because the worker obviously knew a better way - and the worker was successful.

Possibly this is an opportunity for people like you and I who are reaching for greater truths to get involved and help them out?

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I am already a practicing Catholic so that would not be necessary. The Catholic Church hierarchy is somewhat rigid as well, but mostly only toward people who teach in their colleges and are forbidden from teaching after disagreeing with a church policy. Excommunication isn't as big of an issue as it was pre-Vatican II.

Edited by Howard509

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The church needs you brother.

I will hand it to you for being more involved than I am.

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From what I've heard, many people are disfellowshipped from the LDS for not agreeing on even trivial points of doctrine.

 

There are two ways of dealing with apostacy, doctrinal disagreements, and other "big" sins in the LDS Faith.

 

1 - Disfellowship(ment) is the first. It means to silence someone from teaching, leading prayer, and acting in a "priesthood" calling. It is a lesser sanction. One who has been disfellowshipped is encouraged to participate in learning anew the doctrine of the church. Those persons may not teach in any way, nor even participate in discussions, except to ask questions. They may not answer other classmates' questions as if to declare, define, or guide the class.

2 - Ex-communication is the heaver sanction. Here, the individual so sanctioned is literally kicked out. They lose the previously experienced church blessings, endowments, and ordinances. These include Baptism, Confirmation, Priesthood Ordinations, Temple Endowments, and the like. It is possible for an individual to someday re-gain entrance into the LDS Church, but is a long, long process, which process is characterized by a period of repentance, and re-evaluation by the authority(s) decreeing the excommunication.

 

For an individual to admit to reading The Urantia Book is not, in and of itself, a sanctionable offense. To claim to espouse any teaching(s) within TUB that run counter to established LDS doctrine(s) may expose said indivitual to evaluation by a Bishop which may lead to a "in-house" sanction - Disfellowship(ment). It may, if deemed sufficiently aggregious, lead the Bishop to refer the individual up to the next-higher church authority, most usually to the High Council. The High Council may render a decision of either Disfellowshipment or Excommunication. Depending on the situation, excommunication may be publically announced, such as if the person was a Leader (like a Bishop, or Quorum President, or such), or an established Teacher, or whether the offense involved jeopardy to another person or class. Other times, excommunication may be kept more or less confidential.

 

To share any spiritual topic in such a manner as to even hint that any particular Church doctrine, ritual, or policy is untrue or wrong, is almost certain to expose that person to church sanctions. There have been at least 'several' individuals within the LDS church who have been excommunicated over their conflicts with the doctrine of the LDS church - including individuals who believe and share TUB. Disfellowshipment is not a sanction that is publically acknowledged, so I have no knowledge about any such involving Jesusonians who have accepted TUB.

 

There are many, very many within the LDS church who are extraordinally adverse to the merest mention of any 'Revelation' that did not come out from the mouth of 'The Prophet of the Church,' and some get vigorous in their objections and declarations of 'apostacy' on the part of the TUB believer. I have heard some folks declare that my very soul was in danger of eternal damnation, for even believing TUB was close to a 'good philosophy' or even 'uplifting' in its effect in my life. It's a sad situation - especially from a church which has its very foundation in 'latter-day' revelation!

 

As I said, most in the LDS church wholeheartedly espouse, and defend, continuing revelations from God to mankind - as long as it comes only from the President of the LDS Church, the Prophet. The prophet is Thomas S. Monson today, and he will hold that title and position until his death. The LDS church doctrine includes 'personal revelation' for each individual, as well as 'stewardship-revelation' for class leaders or Quorum Presidents or Bishops; but there is to be NO revelations for all mankind that do not originate with the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints - the LDS Prophet.

 

I am sad to admit that the LDS church went from a fresh, new revelatory religion into an evolutionary, ritual-heavy, doctrinally-obtuse religion almost as fast as it could! The evolutionary-izing of the LDS church has happened as an almost continuous process over the whole of its 182 year history.

Edited by JR Sherrod

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I logged onto LDS.org and got an online chat session with a missionary. I anonymously asked him if I would be disfellowshipped for reading The Urantia Book. He said no. His exact words were,"In order to be disfellowshipped, you have to do something really bad." He said I could read whatever I want including the Koran and the Satanic Bible.

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Our Mormon friends are big believers in personal revelation and personal progress and do not forbid the reading or study of any text. This is hardly the same as then disagreeing with their doctrines and creeds which come from the church apostles and move downstream through the priesthood. To challenge them privately or publicaly will result or can result in excommunication. This is not uncommon as even catholic and protestant seminary students study many diverse texts to gain knowledge and perspective related to their core beliefs.

 

Truth is true whatever its source. Some religions give each religionist wide lattitude while others have very proscribed sources and statements of denominational truth. Missionaries are recruiters....they present the "large" print.....but there is plenty of small print to come. Nothing I say should be taken as anything other than respectful of our Mormon brethern and all those who seek Father in every congregation. But the Saints offer many teachings that are more true than most denominations. They are a church based on revelation and personal progress....but they are thus while still a very formal church where authority is very proscribed and resolute.

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This is hardly the same as then disagreeing with their doctrines and creeds which come from the church apostles and move downstream through the priesthood.

 

 

 

Right. Most of us on this forum agree that there is an appropriate time and place for introducing the UB.

Edited by Midsoniter woman

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I am going a little bit wider afield with this next post, please indulge me this little latitude. It still pertains to clear Urantia Book information within the LDS Church Canon, which information is still only partially understood within the membership of the church. I am fascinated by the apparently long period of time wherein these various pieces of cosmological information were revealed to mankind.

 

It is still remarkable what was written by Joseph Smith, Jr. in the 1820s - 1830s; and which has survived in the Doctrines of the LDS Church. Within The Pearl of Great Price there is clear reference to "...innumerable worlds..." and "...innumerable heavens..." and "...works without end..." and "...words without end..." in the writings he produced between June 1830 & February 1831. I need to make specific quotes here; but although I will keep them as short as possible, there still needs to be appropriate contextual support.

 

And he saw God face to face, and he talked with him, and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence. And God spake unto Moses, saying: Behold, I am the Lord God Almighty, and Endless is my name; for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless? And, behold, thou art my son; wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease.” [selections from the Book of Moses, Chapter 1, verses 2-4]

 

“And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth. And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many. But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them.” [Moses 1:31-35, emphasis added]

 

“And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content. And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come, and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt write the things which I shall speak.” [Moses 1:36-40, emphasis added]

 

It makes no difference to me if some readers feel Joseph Smith, Jr. was not a prophet, because the substance of the passages I’ve quoted is becoming more and more substantiated and proved as the days go by. What is most amazing to consider, at least for me, is this: if Joseph Smith, Jr. wasn’t someone entitled to Divine Revelation, then where did he get the information in June of 1830 to make these statements? To put it another way; this amazing man was telling the world that there were innumerable inhabited worlds in the universe, which worlds God created and named and peopled and watched over; and Joseph wrote these things more than 182 years ago! That’s startling, to say the least.

 

God has his own purpose for creating people, worlds, and heavens beyond number. He said it was wisdom, and such wisdom remained with Him. So, God has an unknowable wisdom about the innumerable peopled worlds in the innumerable heavens He has had created by the “…word of his power…” which is his “Only Begotten Son.” God says there is no end to his works, which includes innumerable inhabited worlds in innumerable heavens; and there is no end to the words of his power, which are his only begotten sons, the actual world & heaven creators.

 

What . . . ? Unending world-creating sons of God, who are out there creating more and more inhabited worlds in more and more heavens in a continuously expanding universe?

 

You will not find more than a handful of non-Urantia Book-reading LDS Church members who comprehend that part about "...unending world-creating sons of God..." However, it is my view that it is a clear reference to the revelation of the Paradise Michaels and their audacious adventures of Universe Creating and Universe Perfecting in the 7 Superuniverses. With the earliest inhabited planets of our universe, Nebadon, dating from 200 Billion years ago, [P.654 - §3], it is stupendous indeed to consider the magnitude of creation!

 

I believe one could clearly regard the idea of an individual universe, like Nebadon, being referred to as one of the "...innumerable heavens..." in these extracts written by Joseph Smith, Jr.

 

That pushes back the date of the [at least partial] revelations about Michaels & their Universes just about a whole century! How cool is this?

 

"JR" Sherrod

Edited by JR Sherrod
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In my previous post, I said that LDS church doctrines written more than 180 years ago were being substantiated more and more these days. Although the Urantia book is still the only definitive revelation to show the true magnitude of creation in God's cosmos, there are scientists getting closer and closer these days.

 

[As reported in the January 12, 2012 issue of the British science journal Nature]

“Kailash Sahu, of the Space Telescope Science Institute in Baltimore, Md., is part of an international team reporting today that our galaxy contains a minimum of one planet for every star on average. This means that there is likely to be a minimum of 1,500 planets within just 50 light-years of Earth. The results are based on observations taken over six years by the PLANET (Probing Lensing Anomalies NETwork) collaboration, which Sahu co-founded in 1995. The study concludes that there are far more Earth-sized planets than bloated Jupiter-sized worlds. This is based on calibrating a planetary mass function that shows the number of planets increases for lower mass worlds. A rough estimate from this survey would point to the existence of more than 10 billion terrestrial planets across our galaxy.” [emphasis added]

 

[Here is even more recent support, this time from a SPACE.COM Science story posted to the internet in February 2013]

“Astronomers have calculated that 6 percent of the galaxy’s 75 billion or so red dwarfs — stars smaller and dimmer than the Earth’s own sun — probably host habitable, roughly Earth-size planets. That works out to at least 4.5 billion such “alien Earths,” the closest of which might be found a mere dozen light-years away, researchers said. “We thought we would have to search vast distances to find an Earth-like planet,” study lead author Courtney Dressing, of the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics (CfA), said in a statement. “Now we realize another Earth is probably in our own backyard, waiting to be spotted.” Dressing and her team analyzed data gathered by NASA’s Kepler space telescope.” [emphasis added]

 

As reported in a very recent article on Phys.Org, Dr Phil Yock from the University of Auckland's Department of Physics explains his conclusions about the number of earth-like planets we are likely to discover in the Milky Way. "By interpolating between the Kepler and MOA results, we should get a good estimate of the number of Earth-like, habitable planets in the Galaxy. We anticipate a number in the order of 100 billion." More information: The new work will appear in Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society (Oxford University Press): dx.doi.org/10.1093/mnras/stt318 Read more at: http://phys.org/news...lanets.html#jCp

Edited by JR Sherrod
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Hey JR....good stuff. It is my understanding there is another interpretation to the scripture you posted that is even more interesting to UBers.....that creation process involves ascenders too in the eternities of the outer universes....that we have such destiny as believers. Another of my favorites is we all go to heaven (albeit one of three levels) and while Mormons are chosen for and can attain the highest heaven, the rest of the world is not condemned. Both pretty unusual beliefs for christians anyway (and yes Mormons are christian IMO).

 

I have always surmised that Joe was given vision to see or get a peek of Heaven like John and Paul. And this personal revelation inspired Joe's words. There was a great deal of heady and exciting religious outpouring of the spirit in Joe's time, especially in New York it seems but elsewhere, individualism and expressionism of religious revelations seemed to be growing up and dropping seed in fertile soil. Mormons are taught they have the same circuitry as Joe and all the apostles to follow and the same obligation to Father to stand on holy ground and speak with the voice of truth for themselves.

 

Personally, I always enjoyed Joe's writing as more engaging and illuminating than the Book of Mormon, which he did not write or claim as revelation at all.....it was a translation of the plates.

Edited by Bradly aka/fanofVan
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