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And that's precisely why it can't be explained or described without introducing an element of mystery; human words do not necessarily apply. It also means that the experience of realization comes from some "other-mindedness" than one's own. The inability to experience that "other-mindedness" within one's own mind-arena is definitely a handicap when attempting to understand the description of things divine. Words used to describe it will not suffice unless the other person has had a similar experience. To demand that the description of a religious experience conform to the dictates of common human language is ridiculous when it is clear that it comes from another place altogether. This fact should create a state of humility in a human mind rather than presumptuous criticism about something one knows nothing of.

 

I've made no such demand.

 

@boom - If, as you say, knowledge is the expression of facts, and facts are not truth, it follows that there can be no knowledge of truth. I don't know about you, but I find that to be the worst kind of skepticism.

 

But don't you think it absolutely ugly to claim you want to study truth and then go about saying the most disrespectful and denigrating things about it? It shows a total lack of honesty, in my opinion. The apostles said some really stupid things and asked a lot of dumb questions, but they were honest of heart; they never vilified Jesus' teachings even though they didn't understand them. How utterly rude and ungracious that kind of behavior is. I think it is tolerable to be ignorant but intolerable to be arrogant.

 

On the contrary, it's because I think truth is precious that I have no use for playing games with the word "truth". It's because I take this very seriously that I often require my students to read this book and other carefully written texts. There are no doubt many philosophical issues that are of merely academic interest, but truth isn't one of them.

 

In this thread I have tried hard to lay out as clearly as possible the difference between truth and fact--as important a distinction as that between the menu and the food. I try to use my own words, rather than spewing quotations from other sources, as much as possible. I have good reason for that. If I can't say something in my own words, I don't really understand it. If this approach seems to you to be rude, dishonest, arrogant, or disrespectful, I regret that, but my regret is not a sufficient reason for me to recant my view. This isn't a game. I have dedicated most of my adult life (assuming I'm an adult) to this stuff. Where I find the UB to have things to say that expand my understanding and worldview, I say so. When it goes the other way, I say that too. I have no plan to change this approach.

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Todd: and facts are not truth, it follows that there can be no knowledge of truth.

 

Thats exactly what I am saying. Truth can never be man's -possesion- Once it is analyzed it is robbed it of its truth. Static truth is dead truth.

 

page 2094The human mind does not create real values; human experience does not yield universe insight. Concerning insight, the recognition of moral values and the discernment of spiritual meanings, all that the human mind can do is to discover, recognize, interpret, and choose.

 

(IMO)....Recognition tool= 3 cosmic intuitions. A mind divested of the 3 cosmic intuitions =Discover , priori assumptions, interpet and choose.

 

translation of a Urantia quote, to lazy to pull up exact quote lol" happiness ensues from the recognition of truth, because it can be acted out, and lived".

 

We may not be able to have knowledge of truth todd, but according to the U>B we can Recognize truth. I know it may not seem as amazing haha.

 

1436.1) 130:4.15 All static, dead, concepts are potentially evil. The finite shadow of relative and living truth is continually moving. Static concepts invariably retard science, politics, society, and religion. Static concepts may represent a certain knowledge, but they are deficient in wisdom and devoid of truth. But do not permit the concept of relativity so to mislead you that you fail to recognize the co-ordination of the universe under the guidance of the cosmic mind, and its stabilized control by the energy and spirit of the Supreme.

 

 

Its' not that its skeptical. Its just that man is not divine, he himself cannot be the wellspring of truth beauty and goodness. Truth beauty and goodness flow from the first source and center "The universal Father" and downwards. Truth comes from the top down not the bottom up. Causation, the "creative thought" that the philosopher looks for comes from the top down "god and downwards". Truth flow's from the universal father all the way down, In truth all things dwell within the father and all material reality comes from the top down "god downwards". That one basic principle of reality in Urantia Book is so fundamental to basically everything in this book, that if someone does not recognize that fundamental truth this entire book is just Gobldygeww.

 

When we realize where all reality comes from it does not make man any less valuable or his viewpoint skeptical and depressing, it just makes him more able to "stride step with the cosmo's". The only thing in the entire universe that is not changing is The Universal Father. Truth is constantly moving and dynamic, God is the only uncaused changless being in the universe.

 

 

Static truth is dead truth, and only dead truth can be held as a theory. Living truth is dynamic and can enjoy only an experiential existence in the human mind.

 

(1949.5) 180:5.3 Intelligence grows out of a material existence which is illuminated by the presence of the cosmic mind. Wisdom comprises the consciousness of knowledge elevated to new levels of meaning and activated by the presence of the universe endowment of the adjutant of wisdom. Truth is a spiritual reality value experienced only by spirit-endowed beings who function upon supermaterial levels of universe consciousness, and who, after the realization of truth, permit its spirit of activation to live and reign within their souls.

 

(1949.6) 180:5.4 The true child of universe insight looks for the living Spirit of Truth in every wise saying. The God-knowing individual is constantly elevating wisdom to the living-truth levels of divine attainment; the spiritually unprogressive soul is all the while dragging the living truth down to the dead levels of wisdom and to the domain of mere exalted knowledge.

 

I find it kind of ironic that the 2 times jesus really talks about "static truth" he mentions the "cosmic mind" at the same time. While we may not be able to possess truth we can attain an enhancement of "cosmic consciousness". Our personality's can attain a status of being that we cannot even begin to imagine, there is so much opportunity for to attain a beingness that may be called a "son of god" that there is hardly anything to be depressed about.

 

 

"The human mind does not create real values"....because Real Values come from the top down, not the bottom up "creature and up".

Edited by boomshuka

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IMO When we realize fundamentally that truth flow's from the top down, we begin to feel a hunger in our mind and soul for the source of reality. This is natural and it is the hunger that the thought adjuster works to foster.

 

The transcendent goal of the children of time is to find the eternal God, to comprehend the divine nature, to recognize the Universal Father. God-knowing creatures have only one supreme ambition, just one consuming desire, and that is to become, as they are in their spheres, like him as he is in his Paradise perfection of personality and in his universal sphere of righteous supremacy. From the Universal Father who inhabits eternity there has gone forth the supreme mandate, "Be you perfect, even as I am pefect." In love and mercy the messengers of Paradise have carried this divine exhortation down through the ages and out through the universes, even to such lowly animal-origin creatures as the human races of Urantia.

--Paper 1, The Universal Father

 

 

Another way (IMO) that you could look at it as, Truth Beauty and Goodness. Science, Philosophy and Religion. the 3 Cosmic intuitions. Are all 3 river's and at the lowest level they look unrelated and extremely seperate. Than as we follow these 3 river's back to the Local Universe where the Local Mother spirit is, These 3 channel's come back up into one stream "Cosmic Mind". Than this stream goes back all the way up to Paradise Threw the 3rd source and center all the way up to the Universal Father. Everything is apart of the "whole" the higher we go to view the "whole" the more it appears like the original expression. As we go up further and further science, philosophy and religion is one in the same stream. just as the 3 cosmic intuition's when combined give a viewpoint of "reality".

 

What appears as a static truth unrelated is actually apart of the whole downward stream of reality that flow's from The father down, and does not appear as one "whole" untill we use the 3 cosmic intuition's and engage the stream higher up were the Local mother spirit dwells with the "cosmic mind". At which point we get a downstepped viewpoint of "Reality, True Reality" by laison of the Cosmic Mind.

Edited by boomshuka

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The notion that Truth comes from the bottom up.."creature mind" and outward is the battle cry of the Lucifer Rebellion.

 

Lucifer contested that "mind was infallible". He believed there there is no Universal Father. He believed that Truth came from mind and that universe matter just self manifested.

 

This is "False Liberty". Once we realize that truth flow's from the top down, we can begin to experience "True Liberty". If we follow the reverse logic than we are essentially going in the opposite direction of the cosmo's. We are basically engaging a plan of "Death and Destruction". Of coarse for mortal's it is more just "error" or "misadaptation". It does not become "Sin untill we are actuall Disloyal".

Edited by boomshuka

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Todd,

 

There is factual truths and experiential truths. Factual is the same for everyone where experiential is not. For instance: Fact: The sky is blue. Is that true for you and me? Yes. Experiential: A car ride even, lets use. One of us is driving the other is not. In my experience I will have different truths due to my perception, than your experience. We both take back truths from the experience that are different, even though we experienced the same ride.

 

Now, perception is a different topic altogether. The SoT guides perception of experiential truths on a spiritual level so to speak. So even a material persons perception of truths will be different than those of a God-knowing persons perception because the truth perception factor is different and completely opposite because of the intent.

 

 

When all truths, factual and experiential, are comprehended and put into perspective, it creates knowledge.....

 

Do you understand what I am sayin?

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Sorry, just thought I would continue since I have the thoughts atm,

 

Now, every one has to experience both types...material and spiritual. Due to survival in this world one must be able to function in society and how it works. We must physically all deal with the physical world. One chooses to be able to follow the Spiritual Drawing or not. There are people who do. There are people who don't and there are people that are the floaters. The material seed will choose to follow the material path. They choose to ignore, not perceive anything spiritual. (Their outlook/perception has nothing spiritual in it, is based on material only) The God-Knowing have chosen God's will and follow the path spiritual, but also experiencing the material as well...so their perception is based spiritually with balance) The floaters are the people who believe in something...or teeter tawter back in forth only sometimes following.... or are just learning...or basically everyone who believes because no one is perfect here, even the God-knowing and the false. As I said, knowledge comes from truth. Truth comes from our environment/self(experiences) and perception. Truth can be subjective and objective. Now, for the types mentioned, one can discern by the fruits of the individual....

 

From truth(hmmm truth in knowledge) also comes beliefs too, which we have discussed. (I <3 inter-related topics! LOL :P)

 

Do you have a almost nagging urge when you are reading these subjects/topics? Follow that nagging urge. :huh:

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The distinction between truth and fact has been clear for centuries. It's simply not the distinction that the UB makes. It's not nebulous or materialistic or anti-spiritual or any such canard. The UB, in contrast, generates obscurity around it.

 

"Water boils at 100* C." That's a true proposition, a truth. What makes it true? The way the world is, the physical fact that water is the way it is.

 

"God indwells the minds of mortal will-creatures on Urantia." Setting aside my doubts, let's say that's true. What makes it true? The way God is, the spiritual facts about God.

 

Facts aren't limited to the physical, unless the physical is all there is, which I don't believe and I doubt anyone else here does either. Facts are simply aspects of what is real, at any and all levels of reality. Truth is the expression of any of those facts from the most mundane to the most spiritual. To "distinguish" btw truth and fact the way the UB does is damage both concepts, making them obscure and far less useful.

 

 

 

Living reality is a far, far better way to express it, using the resources of the language as it is. It doesn't need to be "reformed" for this.

 

 

 

Hi Todd,

 

Hope you know your presence on the Forum is much appreciated, and that I don't in the least pity you, rather respect your stalwart skepticism. It creates the stuff exploratory and enlightening conversations are made of!

 

 

You wrote:

 

The distinction between truth and fact has been clear for centuries. It's simply not the distinction that the UP makes. It's not nebulous or materialistic or anti-spiritual or any such canard. The UP, in contrast, generates obscurity around it.

 

"Water boils at 100* C." That's a true proposition, a truth. What makes it true? The way the world is, the physical fact that water is the way it is.

 

~A true follower of Socrates would say, wellllll--not always. At mountaintop level that temp goes down considerably. And who can say what the boiling point of water is on Paradise? We can declare without reservation 100*C is a locally recognized fact--with altitude qualifications! :huh:

 

"God indwells the minds of mortal will-creatures on Urantia." Setting aside my doubts, let's say that's true. What makes it true? The way God is, the spiritual facts about God.

 

Facts aren't limited to the physical, unless the physical is all there is, which I don't believe and I doubt anyone else here does either. Facts are simply aspects of what is real, at any and all levels of reality. Truth is the expression of any of those facts from the most mundane to the most spiritual. To "distinguish" btw truth and fact the way the UB does is damage both concepts, making them obscure and far less useful.

 

~Here we disagree, and I think you will disagree with yourself when you look at the totality, the aggregate, of all the author's statements about truth. I was surprised. Absolute truth, beauty and goodness are used to create a new three-fold concept about personality values that have 84 presentations, strewn somewhat evenly throughout the book. All three are given a sharper, clearer meaning, even presented as word/symbols for the central values, the personal attitudes, of the Being at the center of all beings and things. I don't think the authors hijacked or distorted the meanings of these three common words, rather they borrowed them from our meager lexicon and proceeded to build the very foundations of an explanation of the great God who personifies--actually lives--TB&G, alongside and in coordination with the minded and physical universe.

 

***

 

Living
reality
is a far, far better way to express it, using the resources of the language as it is. It doesn't need to be "reformed" for this.

 

~But reality can be things or beings, it's too loose a concept for this, not strictly about spirit values. TB&G are associated entirely with the VALUES of personalities, intangibles that are the most precious of all things to behold in the sight of the Father of Values. That's my understanding of the teaching, sans quotes. And I must say it well resonates, notwithstanding the human propensity for imperfection and inevitable error!

 

The 84 TB&Gs

 

.

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I like what the Pope said about truth.

 

"Dear friends, truth is not an imposition. Nor is it simply a set of rules. It is a discovery of the One who never fails us; the One whom we can always trust. In seeking truth we come to live by belief because ultimately truth is a person: Jesus Christ. That is why authentic freedom is not an opting out. It is an opting in; nothing less than letting go of self and allowing oneself to be drawn into Christ’s very being for others." ADDRESS OF HIS HOLINESS BENEDICT XVI Saint Joseph Seminary, Yonkers, New York, Saturday, 19 April 2008

 

The Pope gets it. His definition is consistent with TUB, except I would change the Pope's word "belief" to the word "faith". The Pope's definition does not damage the concept of truth and make it less useful, quite the opposite. The Pope has offered a revelation of truth, which tells me that he is being led by the Spirit of Truth, who teaches new expressions of truth to every generation of men, hence the meaning of living truth.

 

79:8.8 Truth is relative and expanding;
it lives always in the present, achieving new expression in each generation of men
— even in each human life.

 

194:2.1 And now that he has personally left the world, he sends in his place his Spirit of truth, who is designed to live in man and,
for each new generation, to restate the Jesus message so that every new group of mortals to appear upon the face of the earth shall have a new and up-to-date version of the gospel
, just such personal enlightenment and group guidance as will prove to be an effective solvent for man’s ever-new and varied spiritual difficulties.

 

That does not mean that eternal truth changes, it means that its expression changes with each generation.

 

102:1.3 Owing to the isolation of rebellion, the revelation of truth on Urantia has all too often been mixed up with the statements of partial and transient cosmologies.
Truth remains unchanged from generation to generation
, but the associated teachings about the physical world vary from day to day and from year to year.
Eternal truth should not be slighted because it chances to be found in company with obsolete ideas regarding the material world. The more of science you know, the less sure you can be; the more of religion you
have
, the more certain you are.

 

Each new generation needs a new experience of truth, and this is the work of the Spirit of Truth. He does not offer new definitions of truth, but new experience with the meanings and values of truth as they pertain to a single life, living in the present. And he does this simultaneously with all those now living who would allow him to do so, just as he did in Palestine two thousand years ago.

 

130:1.1 During their stay in Joppa, Jesus met Gadiah, a Philistine interpreter who worked for one Simon a tanner. Gonod’s agents in Mesopotamia had transacted much business with this Simon; so Gonod and his son desired to pay him a visit on their way to Caesarea. While they tarried at Joppa, Jesus and Gadiah became warm friends. This young Philistine was a truth seeker. Jesus was a truth giver;
he was the truth for that generation on Urantia
. When a great truth seeker and a great truth giver meet,
the result is a great and liberating enlightenment born of the experience of new truth.

 

If truth lives in the present requiring that it be expressed anew with each generation, it would be definitions formed by ancient men lying dead in dusty lexicons that should be considered damaged and useless. It seems to me that definitions that have been around for hundreds or thousands of years might actually become a fetish, enslaving thought on the subject rather than liberating it.

 

159:4.7 The authority of truth is the very spirit that indwells its living manifestations, and
not the dead words of the less illuminated and supposedly inspired men of another generation
.

 

176:3.7 Truth is living;
the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality
and divine service. You are not given truth to crystallize into settled, safe, and honored forms. Your revelation of truth must be so enhanced by passing through your personal experience that new beauty and actual spiritual gains will be disclosed to all who behold your spiritual fruits and in consequence thereof are led to glorify the Father who is in heaven. Only those faithful servants who thus
grow in the knowledge of the truth
, and who thereby develop the capacity for divine appreciation of spiritual realities, can ever hope to “enter fully into the joy of their Lord.” What a sorry sight for successive generations of the professed followers of Jesus to say, regarding their stewardship of divine truth: “Here, Master, is the truth you committed to us a hundred or a thousand years ago. We have lost nothing; we have faithfully preserved all you gave us; we have allowed no changes to be made in that which you taught us; here is the truth you gave us.” But such a plea concerning spiritual indolence will not justify the barren steward of truth in the presence of the Master.
In accordance with the truth committed to your hands will the Master of truth require a reckoning
.

 

178:1.15 This gospel of the kingdom is a living truth. I have told you it is like the leaven in the dough, like the grain of mustard seed; and now I declare that it is like the seed of the living being, which,
from generation to generation, while it remains the same living seed, unfailingly unfolds itself in new manifestations and grows acceptably in channels of new adaptation to the peculiar needs and conditions of each successive generation.
The revelation I have made to you is a living revelation, and I desire that it shall bear appropriate fruits in each individual and in each generation in accordance with the laws of spiritual growth, increase, and adaptative development.
From generation to generation this gospel must show increasing vitality and exhibit greater depth of spiritual power.
It must not be permitted to become merely a sacred memory, a mere tradition about me and the times in which we now live.

 

But if we must stick to a strict antiquated dictionary definition of truth, I will take the one in my dusty copy of the American Heritage Dictionary which has the depth of wisdom to distinguish between truth with a small "t" and truth with a capital "T".

 

Truth: That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence. (American Heritage Dictionary)

 

The name of the capital of a country has no supreme or ultimate meaning or value which can be considered necessary for existence. It is arbitrary in the infinite sense and hence potentially useless since it could change tomorrow.

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Dictionaries are relatively modern inventions. They present snapshots of how words are used at particular moments in time. Concepts are much older than dictionaries, of course, and they have their own internal logic. Dictionary definitions are generally a starting point, but they seldom get all the work done.

 

Bonita, the practice of capitalizing a word to assign a different meaning to it is an old gimmick. Philosophers do this with Intentionality, for example, and the distinction between catholic and Cathloic is well known. I have no objection to it, or to figurative uses of terms, unless they begin to obscure the core concepts themselves. But I'm afriad that is just what has happened. My evidence for that is some of the strange things that have transpired in this thread, such as it being a fact but apparently not truth that Paris is the capital of France.

 

Some truths change; some don't. "Paris is the capital of France" is true. The proposition is a truth, but certainly not an eternal or unchanging one. It's a truth of political geography that will not last forever. ”There is no highest prime number" is also a truth, a mathematical one. It's not subject to change. "God is never surprised" is also not subject to change. It's a divine truth, I think. If not being subject to change is what makes a truth eternal, then both the mathematical and divine truths are eternal.

 

When the UB tells us that we may be right about the facts but "everlastingly wrong" about the truth, I take that to be a figurative (i.e., non-literal) way of saying that one may know what's true and what's false but fail to recognize the deeper significance and importance of those truths.

 

On the matter of truth as a value, i hope I made it clear in my last post that I am in full agreement.

Edited by Todd

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When the UB tells us that we may be right about the facts but "everlastingly wrong" about the truth, I take that to be a figurative (i.e., non-literal) way of saying that one may know what's true and what's false but fail to recognize the deeper significance and importance of those truths.

 

Hi todd,

 

Here's that reference to, as you say, ". . .right about the facts but 'everlastingly wrong' about the truth. . .":

 

P.555 - §1
Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth. The creation of new pictures out of old facts, the restatement of parental life in the lives of offspring--these are the artistic triumphs of truth. The shadow of a hair's turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle--these constitute falseness. But the fetish of factualized truth, fossilized truth, the iron band of so-called unchanging truth, holds one blindly in a closed circle of cold fact. One can be technically right as to fact and everlastingly wrong in the truth.

 

All the best,

Meredith

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Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth. The creation of new pictures out of old facts, the restatement of parental life in the lives of offspring--these are the artistic triumphs of truth. The shadow of a hair's turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle--these constitute falseness. But the fetish of factualized truth, fossilized truth, the iron band of so-called unchanging truth, holds one blindly in a closed circle of cold fact. One can be technically right as to fact and everlastingly wrong in the truth. ~ The Urantia Book, (48:6.22)
In olden times the fetish word of authority was a fear-inspiring doctrine, the most terrible of all tyrants which enslave men. A doctrinal fetish will lead mortal man to betray himself into the clutches of bigotry, fanaticism, superstition, intolerance, and the most atrocious of barbarous cruelties. Modern respect for wisdom and truth is but the recent escape from the fetish-making tendency up to the higher levels of thinking and reasoning. Concerning the accumulated fetish writings which various religionists hold as sacred books, it is not only believed that what is in the book is true, but also that every truth is contained in the book. If one of these sacred books happens to speak of the earth as being flat, then, for long generations, otherwise sane men and women will refuse to accept positive evidence that the planet is round. ~ The Urantia Book, (88:2.7)

 

According to U.B those are facts, but they are true facts, that does not make them Truth. Truth is real and living.

Just as we can engage in True Worship, and True prayer, we can recognize Truth threw True worship but that doesn't make "True worship" the Truth. True worship is the name designation given to the experience of experiencing Truth hahaha.

 

The name disignation of Paris not actually REAL, it is not a dynamic reality. It is a human name.

2:7.6] "Happiness ensues from the recognition of truth because it can be acted out

 

We can "recognize" truth, but we cannot hold onto it as static knowledge.

 

Pg 42.5. When man searches for truth, he pursues the divinely real.

 

P42:2, 2:7.1 All finite knowledge and creature understanding are relative. Information and intelligence, gleaned from even high sources, is only relatively complete, locally accurate, and personally true.

 

P42:3, 2:7.2 Physical facts are fairly uniform, but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe. Evolving personalities are only partially wise and relatively true in their communications. They can be certain only as far as their personal experience extends. That which apparently may be wholly true in one place may be only relatively true in another segment of creation.

 

P42:4, 2:7.3 Divine truth, final truth, is uniform and universal, but the story of things spiritual, as it is told by numerous individuals hailing from various spheres, may sometimes vary in details owing to this relativity in the completeness of knowledge and in the repleteness of personal experience as well as in the length and extent of that experience. While the laws and decrees, the thoughts and attitudes, of the First Great Source and Center are eternally, infinitely, and universally true; at the same time, their application to, and adjustment for, every universe, system, world, and created intelligence, are in accordance with the plans and technique of the Creator Sons as they function in their respective universes, as well as in harmony with the local plans and procedures of the Infinite Spirit and of all other associated celestial personalities.

 

 

P42:5, 2:7.4 The false science of materialism would sentence mortal man to become an outcast in the universe. Such partial knowledge is potentially evil; it is knowledge composed of both good and evil. Truth is beautiful because it is both replete and symmetrical. When man searches for truth, he pursues the divinely real.

 

:4, 2:7.11 All truth -- material, philosophic, or spiritual -- is both beautiful and good. All real beauty -- material art or spiritual symmetry -- is both true and good. All genuine goodness -- whether personal morality, social equity, or divine ministry -- is equally true and beautiful. Health, sanity, and happiness are integrations of truth, beauty, and goodness as they are blended in human experience. Such levels of efficient living come about through the unification of energy systems, idea systems, and spirit systems.

 

P43:5, 2:7.12 Truth is coherent, beauty attractive, goodness stabilizing. And when these values of that which is real are co-ordinated in personality experience, the result is a high order of love conditioned by wisdom and qualified by loyalty. The real purpose of all universe education is to effect the better co-ordination of the isolated child of the worlds with the larger realities of his expanding experience. Reality is finite on the human level, infinite and eternal on the higher and divine levels.

 

An animal can learn language, memorize places, learn from experience, have basic logical association's of facts in it's mind, but none of this makes an animal capable of "recognizing" truth.

Edited by boomshuka

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Also there is no such thing as "closed system". There exists no Vacuum. All reality including -material things- exist literlaly within A living being "god", and the association between the material and God is nothing but change.

 

God is first and formost a personality. Fact consciousness must yield to personality. personality is creative it experience's the "True Values" of reality.

 

The qualatitive experience of having consciousness of True Value, when analyzed and psycologized is rendered to the dead truth level's of exhaulted knowledge and wisdom. Personality is co-ordinate over the material, including the mind. So when we recognize reality threw a obvjective consciousness "3 cosmic intuitioned mind" we can glimpse the creative personality that is the causation of the material. We can do this because 2 personality's can "know" each other. Also the Creative personality (God) who is behind creation is in search of creature personality. An animal can only see the physical, but man can recognize the material and the personality from which the material flows from. Only in a 3-fold cosmic approach do we actually discover and recognize Reality.

 

Paper 1

The Creator covers himself with light as with a garment and stretches out the heavens as a curtain.

 

Paper 1

This sublime search for the God of universes is the supreme adventure of the inhabitants of all the worlds of time and space.
Edited by boomshuka

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I was about to compose another post on this topic, but it occurred to me that I'd probably just end up repeating, or rephrasing, things I've already written. That's a good sign that it's time to stop. I don't need to convince anyone, but at least I've had the opportunity to set out my ideas, and I'm grateful for that.

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Hi Todd,

 

[...] but at least I've had the opportunity to set out my ideas, and I'm grateful for that.

To help round out this thread, let's take a look at how the authors set out their ideas. Their job description was not so much to patch up parts of our science or philosophy, but to help us set up a larger frame in which to think. The challenge was to keep this larger frame small enough so that, like a graft, it could "take". This is alluded to in their famous paragraph, "[...] If mind cannot fathom [...]" [(1260.2) 115:1.1] .

 

Their technique (of enlarging our frame) involves amplifying, intensifying and complexifying our conceptual vocabulary. Consider what they attempted with the terms {personality, love, truth}. By expanding the conceptual package each portrays, the authors can then use them in more meaningful, and more valuable, ways. As a precedent, think of the evolution of the god concept among the Hebrews: while those worshipping the god of their mountain would (could?) see no need for confusing their contemporary concept, the Melchizedek receivers had other plans. Likewise, while contemporary usage of the term truth may, from our perspective, seem perfectly good, our concept of truth had been evolving a long time before George Boole hijacked it to help with his algebra. Did Pilate have the capital of France in mind when he famously posed his question?

 

To illustrate what they can do with their enhanced and expanded terms, I offer one of my favourite paragraphs:

 

"Faith most willingly carries reason along as far as reason can go and

then goes on with wisdom to the full philosophic limit; and then it dares

to launch out upon the limitless and never-ending universe journey in

the sole company of TRUTH." [(1141.5) 103:9.7]

Thanks for an excellent discussion!

Nigel

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Their technique (of enlarging our frame) involves amplifying, intensifying and complexifying our conceptual vocabulary. Consider what they attempted with the terms {personality, love, truth}. By expanding the conceptual package each portrays, the authors can then use them in more meaningful, and more valuable, ways. As a precedent, think of the evolution of the god concept among the Hebrews: while those worshipping the god of their mountain would (could?) see no need for confusing their contemporary concept, the Melchizedek receivers had other plans. Likewise, while contemporary usage of the term truth may, from our perspective, seem perfectly good, our concept of truth had been evolving a long time before George Boole hijacked it to help with his algebra. Did Pilate have the capital of France in mind when he famously posed his question?

 

We can go back a bit farther than Boole, though. Plato, for example: "a true proposition says that which is, and a false proposition says that which is not".

 

You see, the core concept of truth, unlike the concept of God, has remained fairly constant for at least two thousand years. I don't deny that there are many puzzles about how truth actually works, but the basic idea, that truth is some kind of congruence between proposition and reality is crucial. It's far from clear to me that what the UB has to say about truth is either more clear or more valuable.

 

101:4.3 Truth is
always
a revelation: autorevelation when it emerges as a result of the work of the indwelling Adjuster; epochal revelation when it is presented by the function of some other celestial agency, group, or personality.

 

If I take this at face value, I'd have to conclude that nothing but revelation is true. But suppose I grant that. Then I need some other word to talk about the things that people have called "true" and "truth" for thousands of years. What shall I use?

 

Very sneaky to draw me back into this thread!

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Okay Todd, so what the U.B is asking you to do is to trade your "initial set of propositions" for its "inital set of propositions" so that you can have a relationship with truth :huh:. hahahah though it appears that in order to experience "reality" or divine truth we must have more than a subjective consciounsness, it would appear to experience the Higher truths we must have a "objective consciousnes" "3 cosmic intuitioned mind". At which point we can discover and recognize reality in its truer form, threw the local universe level of cosmic mind :P.

 

The propositions in U.B may be true propositions. but there is no truth experience untill the reality's behind the proposition integrate with the thought consciousness of the human being. And if someone has a "Subjective conscousness" and believes in "True" propositions are they really "recognizing" truth??? Me thinks not.

 

The higher up we go though the more clearer reality "truth" becomes. It would seem that the cosmic mind of the Local Universe is the lowest downstepped version of Objective viewing that we can experience as mortals. The next lowest viewpoint seem's to be the super animal mind, "subjective consciousness". Which from the U.B's perspective is actually incapable of recognizing true reality.

 

467.1) 42:0.1 THE foundation of the universe is material in the sense that energy is the basis of all existence, and pure energy is controlled by the Universal Father. Force, energy, is the one thing which stands as an everlasting monument demonstrating and proving the existence and presence of the Universal Absolute. This vast stream of energy proceeding from the Paradise Presences has never lapsed, never failed; there has never been a break in the infinite upholding.

 

.4) 42:1.2 Matter — energy — for they are but diverse manifestations of the same cosmic reality, as a universe phenomenon is inherent in the Universal Father. “In him all things consist.” Matter may appear to manifest inherent energy and to exhibit self-contained powers, but the lines of gravity involved in the energies concerned in all these physical phenomena are derived from, and are dependent on, Paradise. The ultimaton, the first measurable form of energy, has Paradise as its nucleus.

 

"In every living plant or animal cell, in every living organism — material or spiritual — there is an insatiable craving for the attainment of ever-increasing perfection..."

 

The Urantia Book, (737.2) 65:6.2

Edited by boomshuka

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The higher up we go though the more clearer reality "truth" becomes. It would seem that the cosmic mind of the Local Universe is the lowest downstepped version of Objective viewing that we can experience as mortals. The next lowest viewpoint seem's to be the super animal mind, "subjective consciousness". Which from the U.B's perspective is actually incapable of recognizing true reality.

 

All human self-conscious experience is essentially subjective except two objective forms of experience: response to the Father's personality circuit and the unified reality responses of the cosmic mind, and personality is what unifies the reality responses. Personality is key. People constantly leave personality out of the discussion, whether it be a discussion about truth, cosmic consciousness, extra dimensions, outer space, worship, or religious experience. Personality is what unifies reality and by doing so we become more real ourselves (psychic circles). Divine personality IS objective reality, which is why Jesus came to reveal it. But since personality is usually minded, we tend to think that mind, along with body and spirit/soul, is all there is. Personality is at the center of everything and we recognize divine personality as Love, the ultimate objective reality.

 

112:1.17 But the concept of the personality as the meaning of the whole of the living and functioning creature means much more than the integration of relationships;
it signifies the unification of all factors of reality
as well as co-ordination of relationships.

 

So, it is my opinion that the Thought Adjuster is the lowest down-stepped version of objective reality that we can experience as mortals and we are able to "view" this objective reality with our personalities within the arena of mind.

 

196:3.21 The exquisite and transcendent experience of loving and being loved is not just a psychic illusion because it is so purely subjective.
The one truly divine and objective reality that is associated with mortal beings, the Thought Adjuster
, functions to human observation apparently as an exclusively subjective phenomenon. Man’s contact with the highest objective reality, God, is only through the purely subjective experience of knowing him, of worshiping him, of realizing sonship with him.

 

103:9.9 The full realization of the reality of mortal life consists in a progressive willingness to believe these assumptions of reason, wisdom, and faith. Such a life is one motivated by truth and dominated by love; and these are the ideals of objective cosmic reality whose existence cannot be materially demonstrated.

 

Elsewhere in TUB they describe four reality realizations. Realizations are recognitions of reality, the ability to know objective reality. The list includes realization of the three cosmic mind intuitions (causation, duty and worship) and a fourth, personality recognition:

 

16.9.9  Self-consciousness is in essence a communal consciousness: God and man, Father and son, Creator and creature. In human self-consciousness
four universe-reality realizations
are latent and inherent: 1. The quest for knowledge, the
logic of science
. 2. The quest for moral values, the sense of
duty
. 3. The quest for spiritual values, the
religious experience
. 4.
The quest for personality values, the ability to recognize the reality of God as a personality
and the concurrent realization of our fraternal relationship with fellow personalities.

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Yea personality is always the grand puba of reality. I suppose there is another way to look at this as well, if we are functioning with the 3 cosmic intuition's "unified by personality" and we are engaging the cosmo's than perhaps it could be said we are "striding step with reality". lol. Or striding step with the cosmo's.

 

The reality of the cosmo's may not be something we hold onto, so much as we are a living part of it, and experiencing it as apart of the whole.

Edited by boomshuka

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You see, the core concept of truth, unlike the concept of God, has remained fairly constant for at least two thousand years.

Which serves nicely to indicate for how long we have been bumping along as intellectual and philosophical bottom-feeders. The fact that we and our forebears fell into the habit of using a minimal version of this concept, i.e. as some sort of equivalence to logical correctness, need not remain forever a Plato's Cave kind of limit.

 

I don't deny that there are many puzzles about how truth actually works, ...

These puzzles are precisely the motivation philosophers need to help them appreciate what the authors are attempting. What is "truth" that it resonates in humans so powerfully? We do not get truly worked up about this or that fact, but truth is something that many have gladly died for. Or lived for. As one who happily succumbed to the numinous impinging upon my inner world, I recall feeling freed regarding things that may at first "seem strange" when I found Hamlet proposing: " ... therefore as a stranger give it welcome". As I'm sure you will allow, "there are more things in heaven and earth" than are locked into our native philosophies. Perhaps as a culture we have not yet plumbed the full intent and concept capacity of truth. Let alone beauty and goodness. In this regard, I was delighted by this short piece by John Cottingham which raises the "to-be-pursuedness" of {truth, beauty, goodness}:

 

 

Personality is at the center of everything and we recognize divine personality as Love, the ultimate objective reality.

[...]

So, it is my opinion that the Thought Adjuster is the lowest down-stepped version of objective reality that we can experience as mortals and we are able to "view" this objective reality with our personalities within the arena of mind.

After my personal recognition of being loved, one of my most intriguing discoveries via these papers arose from their description of truth as a "technique of personality assurance" ((1111.4) 101:5.14). Another was discovering that as humans, we have something many others, lack... a cosmic window:

 

[...] "The Thought Adjuster is the cosmic window through which the finite creature may faith-glimpse the certainties [...] " (1129.1) 103:0.1

Once aligned with and responsive to this "love of God incarnate in our soul", the whole business of being human changes.

 

PS: that change is absolute*, in the UB sense.

Nigel

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Which serves nicely to indicate for how long we have been bumping along as intellectual and philosophical bottom-feeders. The fact that we and our forebears fell into the habit of using a minimal version of this concept, i.e. as some sort of equivalence to logical correctness, need not remain forever a Plato's Cave kind of limit.

 

I just don't get this, not even a little bit. Precisely what is "minimal" about this concept of truth? Logical correctness doesn't enter into, since logic is about what follows from what, which you can't even make sense of until some notion of truth is already in place.

 

Truths are about reality. They are true because they get reality right--any aspect of reality, "high", "low" or somewhere in the middle.

 

These puzzles are precisely the motivation philosophers need to help them appreciate what the authors are attempting. What is "truth" that it resonates in humans so powerfully? We do not get truly worked up about this or that fact, but truth is something that many have gladly died for. Or lived for.

 

I don't need to abandon the core concept of truth to approach those questions. I don't think people die for truth, but they are willing to die for certain truths that they take to be of supreme importance. People get worked up when they have reason to believe that the truth is being distorted or hidden. There's an old saying, "The first casualty of war is the truth."

 

Do you say that there is no fact of the matter as to whether God exists?

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So what's the answer? Is "Paris is the capital of France" truth or error?

 

 

I think this is an example of relative truth or qualified truth. :huh:

 

 

(888.1) 79:8.8 Truth is relative and expanding; it lives always in the present, achieving new expression in each generation of men — even in each human life.

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(IMO) Without recognition of the first source and center "universal father" man may be able to discover truth's but he will never fully "recognize" "stride step with truth" or "stride step with reality" unless he recognizes the source of all truth.

 

Worship is the act of a part identifying itself with the Whole; the finite with the Infinite; the son with the Father; time in the act of striking step with eternity. ~ The Urantia Book, (143:7.8)

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I think this is an example of relative truth or qualified truth. :huh:

 

Yep. Relative to current geopolitical circumstances, it's true. Simple.

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(IMO) It seems that many people Discover truth, beauty and goodness, but that they do not recognize it on many occasions. Than it seem's that some who do happen to function in some aspects with these 3 cosmic intuition's do actually get to the point where they recognize truth to a degree, but that they do not have a

"real-ization" of what they are recognizing, because they quickly turn their personality away from what their mind has recognized. They do not couragously stay face to face with the recognized reality.

 

It seems as though with these 3 cosmic intuition's we can "recognize" truth, beauty and goodnes but than we can threw the Father and other spiritual agencie's actually have a "realization" of these truth's so that they are become a experience with our personality. In other words our personality makes them real "real-ize's" them.

 

Personality seem's to be what "realizes". A couragous person will face what a logical mind discover's. (IMO) a Personality face's sometimes literlaly what the mind has discovered and recognized.

 

I guess an example would be if someone discoverd all these truths and for a moment recognized them in their form, and than failed to "discriminate the end point of their mortal strivings" and they turned their personality back towards the subjective world. Me thinks the goal is to maintian face with the 3 cosmic intuition's within the domain of the cosmic mind as long as possible before the material everyday things that require the self get in the way. I imagine at first as children we sometimes access the cosmic mind here and there. Maybe sometimes never at all though hahahaha seing as "so few mortals".....are....but than slowly we favourably position ourselves so that we are always face to face within the domain of the cosmic mind, viewing the reflective image of true cosmic reality.

 

(IMO) Long story short if we all had perfect jobs and perfect lives and perfect genetics I imagine it would be much easier to be spiritual responsive and stay focussed all the while "recognizing" and "real-izing" bringing recognition into reality by the personality if all factors were favourablly situated, all the while maintianing The Universal father as your focal point and nucleus of all motivation.

 

What the true son desires and the infinite Father wills IS."
Edited by boomshuka

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(IMO) Long story short if we all had perfect jobs and perfect lives and perfect genetics I imagine it would be much easier to be spiritual responsive and stay focussed all the while "recognizing" and "real-izing" bringing recognition into reality by the personality if all factors were favourablly situated, all the while maintianing The Universal father as your focal point and nucleus of all motivation.

 

Yeah . . . waiting for perfect this and perfect that is just what all the Messiah cravers are hoping for. Listen, it's not all that hard to live in the presence of God 24/7. All it takes is devotion. A little loyalty and trust takes you rather far on this road, trust me. I have discovered that what TUB said about prayer in this modern age is true. People think they are too busy to do it. To do what you described above is fully attainable with sincere prayer. You just have to actually do it and not just think about doing it. I know you probably know this, but I have to say it anyway because it's my bugaboo.

 

195:6.7  One of the great troubles with modern life is that man thinks he is too busy to find time for spiritual meditation and religious devotion.

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