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Therefore, I would be interested in reading some of your material about your ” advanced degrees specializing in neurophysiology”!

 

My published work concerns the effect of anesthetic pharmaceuticals on the brain, specifically the effect of pharmaceuticals on blood circulation during cerebral aneurysm surgery and a phenomenon called "brain protection". This phenomenon was recently made public with the shooting of Gabby Giffords when she was put into a "protective coma" with pharmaceuticals in order to minimize brain damage. My studies were a combination of both clinical (data collected during the administration of anesthesia with EEG monitoring) and laboratory work (the effect of pharmaceuticals on calcium channels within rat aortas). Incidentally, have you had a chance to read papers on the effect of psychotropics on the flicker-fusion frequency threshold? It's interesting.

 

But that aside, I found your tone to be very condescending. It seems to me that you're challenging my credentials. And honestly, dropping names does not impress me. It may surprise you, but I don't really care how many nobel prize winners you know. I know a few people in high places myself, but I'm not interested in using them to give weight to my credentials; I stand on my own.

 

Now, concerning the quote I offered. I was not referring to mechanistic materialism; I chose that quote because of the underlined words that seem to apply to a strictly scientific (physical) approach to understanding that which is not physical. Those words are: bondage, slavery and blindness. I was trying to make a point that using a single approach to this topic is as good as being blind. I don't think that it was an accident that the revelaters described mota as being like having three eyes instead of two. Studying morontia with only physics is more like seeing with one eye, or maybe none at all.

 

Physics may study the materials and techniques of the Creators, but alone it is not sufficient in the study of truth. One might become so bound, enslaved and blinded by the scientific approach that one just might totally miss the truth. The revelaters didn't say, "One can be technically right as to fact and everlastingly wrong in the truth" for nothing. Physics is about facts. Morontia is not just facts, it is experience. And, no discussion about morontia should be so narrow as to exclude this truth.

 

12:9.3 Mathematics, material science, is indispensable to the intelligent discussion of the
material aspects
of the universe, but such knowledge is not necessarily a part of the higher realization of truth or of the personal appreciation of spiritual realities. Not only in the realms of life but even in the world of physical energy, the sum of two or more things is very often something more than, or something different from, the predictable additive consequences of such unions. The entire science of mathematics, the whole domain of philosophy,
the highest physics or chemistry,
could not predict or know that the union of two gaseous hydrogen atoms with one gaseous oxygen atom would result in a new and qualitatively superadditive substance — liquid water. The understanding knowledge of this one physiochemical phenomenon should have prevented the development of materialistic philosophy and mechanistic cosmology.

 

TUB tells us that mind is just as important as physics in studying the cosmos:

 

58:2.3 The Urantia midwayers have assembled over fifty thousand facts of physics and chemistry which they deem to be incompatible with the laws of accidental chance, and which they contend unmistakably demonstrate the presence of intelligent purpose in the material creation. And all of this takes no account of their catalogue of more than one hundred thousand findings
outside the domain of physics and chemistry
which they maintain prove the presence of mind in the planning, creation, and maintenance of the material cosmos.

 

65:6.8 physics and chemistry alone cannot explain how a human being evolved out of the primeval protoplasm of the early seas. The ability to learn, memory and differential response to environment, is the endowment of mind. The laws of physics are not responsive to training; they are immutable and unchanging. The reactions of chemistry are not modified by education; they are uniform and dependable. Aside from the presence of the Unqualified Absolute, electrical and chemical reactions are predictable. But mind can profit from experience, can learn from reactive habits of behavior in response to repetition of stimuli.

 

Mind is one of my areas of expertise after years of studying the revelation; and although you cannot examine it with a microscope, a mass spectrometer, an interferometer or any other meter, mind is real and worthy of inclusion in any discussion about morontia, especially since it is the only area of morontia available to our experience.

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I definitely believe that Pual and John must have had many of the pre required spiritual attribute's layed out in the u.b to have had this experience. The Soul definitely (IMO) played a huge part in receiving spiritual insight. As the degree of the soul's spiritual receptivity is equivelent to the elimination of the selfish quality's of love, these 2 must have been extroadinarly loving human being's functioning on cosmic level's. I still have no idea how the vision actually took place, but I bet everything was working together on a very high level, Mind, Personality, Soul and Adjuster. For all I know they were just laying in bed and a sudden spiritual upheavel where all force's where working together merged and something just sort of clicked into place. Maybe it was similar to those "suddenly's" of evolution where all of a sudden a new type of specie's appear's. Perhap's all of a sudden all force's just clicked into to place and it was a cosmic event. I bet these event's are incredibly rear maybe 1 in a billion. Indeed though without a love saturated soul, I doubt Paul and John would have had any experience like this.

 

As for Morontia, I definitely love all the quote's people got and it seem's like awesome information. I forgot alot of those quote's concerning the morontia substance. I agree with Todd in that we should investigate these matter's fully and try our best to comprehend them, especially something such as Morontia because of its interelatedness to the 5th epochal revelation, and in hope's that understanding this substance may contribute to us someday functioning with a cosmic mind, thus forming a greater relationship with the Supreme Being and God.

Edited by boomshuka

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So, from where comes the system of mind our morontia forms engage?

 

It also comes from the Divine Minister. All mind is from her. The morontia mind is derived from a local universe modification of the cosmic mind and a superadjutant endowment of the Creative Spirit.

 

110:6.21 Beyond the first circle, mind becomes increasingly akin to the intelligence of the morontia stage of evolution, the
conjoined ministry of the cosmic mind and the superadjutant endowment of the Creative Spirit of a local universe.

 

112:6.6 The morontia mind must evolve by
direct contact with cosmic mind, as this cosmic mind has been modified and translated by the creative source of local universe intellect — the Divine Minister
.

 

112:5.17 1. The fabrication of a suitable form, a morontia energy pattern, in which the new survivor can make contact with nonspiritual reality, and within which the
morontia variant of the cosmic mind
can be encircuited.

 

112:5.20 The fact of repersonalization consists in the seizure of the
encircuited morontia phase of the newly segregated cosmic mind
by the awakening human self.

 

112:6.4 In the morontia estate the ascending mortal is endowed with the
Nebadon modification of the cosmic-mind
endowment of the Master Spirit of Orvonton.

 

But of note, it is not as you say, that the morontia form engages the morontia mind. It is the other way around, the morontia mind engages the morontia form. Mind first, substance second. (Which is why we are evolving a morontia mind right now, as we speak, prior to having the morontia body. First things first.)

 

42:12.11 The liaison of the cosmic mind and the ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits evolve a suitable physical tabernacle for the evolving human being.
Likewise does the morontia mind individualize the morontia form for all mortal survivors.

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Todd, I realize you have difficulty (at least I believe you've said so) with the concept of the soul. If you can accept that the soul is morontia mind, then you also have to accept that most of us have morontia minds; but, none of us have morontia bodies. It's not necessary to have both. Furthermore, mind is not substance, nor does it need substance for realization. Realization requires personality.

 

Our human minds are not made up of substance, that is, if you define substance (at least for this discussion) as some form of matter, be it physical or morontial. If our human minds do not have substance, then our morontia minds do not have substance either. Mind is not matter. Matter and substance are energy forms. Mind is living ministry added to energy. TUB attempts to define mind but can only do so in relation to the Third Source and Center as a living entity which is nonmaterial in origin. (Hence the use of the term "mind spirits".)

 

My difficulties with the concept of soul are linked to my generic doubts about all of these matters. I'm far from certain that any such things as "soul" or "spirit" even exist. But for purposes of most discussions here, I try to "suspend disbelief", or put my doubts on hold. That is, I try to discuss these things from within the framework of the UB, to the extent that I can do so. That doesn't entail, however, that I throw overboard everything else that I have ever learned.

 

So, for purposes of clarification, I'll set out a few basic points about how I think of "mind".

 

1. Minds are not things, or entities, or substances. The noun "mind" is only a convenient way of referring to the many states and processes that we call "mental". States and processes are necessarily states and processes of something. So even though minds are not substances, or made of substances, they are "realized" or "tokened" in substances.

 

0:6.8
Mind
is a phenomenon connoting the presence-activity of
living ministry
in addition to varied energy systems; and this is true on all levels of intelligence. In personality, mind ever intervenes between spirit and matter; therefore is the universe illuminated by three kinds of light: material light, intellectual insight, and spirit luminosity.

 

I have no problem saying that mind is a phenomenon, or set of phenomena. You asserted that mind is "living ministry added to energy." I have no idea what that means. The UB says only that the phenomenon of mind connotes the presence of living ministry, which is a far different claim.

 

2. Although the dominant (but not universally held) view in contemporary philosophy is that mind is strictly a physical phenomenon, in the sense that nothing over and above matter and physical energy are involved, I believe that all arguments for materialism (or "physicalism", as it now tends to be called, for technical reasons) are flawed. So I am completely open to the UB's claim that there are "supermaterial" elements involved in mortal mind. I'm not entirely clear on what "supermaterial" means, but I'm trying to figure it out, in discussions such as this one.

 

3. I realize that it may not be possible to figure out. Some philosophers have argued that we are "cognitively closed" to a full understanding of the relation between mind and body. Interestingly, the UB agrees, claiming that morontia mota is needed for this.

 

So, while I agree that our mortal minds don't "have" substance, and they are not substances, they clearly do depend on substance to exist at all. I have no reason to suppose the situation is any different for morontia minds, except that they substance that they depend upon is different.

Edited by Todd

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Hi Bonita,

 

1. The fabrication of a suitable form, a morontia energy pattern, in which the

new survivor can make contact with nonspiritual reality, and within which the

morontia variant of the cosmic mind can be encircuited. [(1234.6) 112:5.17]

Are they describing a form which can be encircuited by a system of mind?

 

But of note, it is not as you say, that the morontia form engages the morontia

mind. It is the other way around, the morontia mind engages the morontia form.

Mind first, substance second. (Which is why we are evolving a morontia mind

right now, as we speak, prior to having the morontia body. First things first.)

Is our soul really "morontia mind"? Or is it better described as "a new vehicle

for personality manifestation." [(1232.5) 112:5.4]. It was my understanding

that within the substance of this new form, a morontia variant of the cosmic

mind can be encircuited. [(1234.6) 112:5.17]

 

"The liaison of the cosmic mind and the ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits

evolve a suitable physical tabernacle for the evolving human being. Likewise

does the morontia mind individualize the morontia form for all mortal survivors."

[(483.11) 42:12.11]

Here I imagine an exquisite feedback between our evolving morontial forms

and our evolving engagement with morontia levels of mind -- our substantial

form increasingly reflecting our evolving status, and intent.

 

If you have actual experience of all this, I am keen to update my view ;)

Nigel

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0:6.8
Mind
is a phenomenon connoting the presence-activity of
living ministry
in addition to varied energy systems; and this is true on all levels of intelligence. In personality, mind ever intervenes between spirit and matter; therefore is the universe illuminated by three kinds of light: material light, intellectual insight, and spirit luminosity.

I have no problem saying that mind is a phenomenon, or set of phenomena. You asserted that mind is "living ministry added to energy." I have no idea what that means. The UB says only that the phenomenon of mind connotes the presence of living ministry, which is a far different claim.

 

I believe, by using the word "connoting", the authors mean, "as a condition or consequence of" (Oxford American Dictionary). Therefore it would say: Mind is a phenomenon "that is a consequence of the presence-activity of living ministry in addition to varied energy systems. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that unless it's the "living ministry" part. Living ministry implies (connotes) that there is a personality in charge of mind, the Infinite Spirit, Creative Spirit, whatever you want to call her/him. Note that they say "presence-activity". This means that there is a "presence" active in mind ministry (whom I call God). Living ministry means that mind is a phenomenon which serves a need. Mind is what creates, controls and upholds.

 

42:11.2 Mechanisms do not absolutely dominate the total creation; the universe of universes
in toto
is
mind planned, mind made, and mind administered.
But the divine mechanism of the universe of universes is altogether too perfect for the scientific methods of the finite mind of man to discern even a trace of the dominance of the infinite mind. For this
creating, controlling, and upholding mind
is neither material mind nor creature mind; it is spirit-mind functioning on and from creator levels of divine reality.

 

There are so many levels and aspects to mind that it would help to narrow it down. Even human, material, adjutant mind is terribly complex, complex enough to make it a life-long study in and of itself. Mastery of the material mind is our immediate goal, evolution of the morontia mind is our temporary goal and progression to spirit mind is our ultimate goal. But, on each level there is much, much more.

 

TUB says: "Material mind is the arena in which human personalities live, are self-conscious, make decisions, choose God or forsake him, eternalize or destroy themselves. (111:1.3)" The morontia mind that we are evolving as the soul is the arena in which our personality can potentially live, be self-conscious and make decisions if we are diligent in completing the psychic circles. The morontia mind comes first and then the morontia substance on which it can function (remember morontia mind cannot function in the material world). When a personality identifies sufficiently with the morontia mind to the point where it requires a morontia substrate with which to function, fusion occurs. Until then, it depends on natural death.

 

Mind is the place where everything happens regardless of what level of mind is functioning. Notice that the following quote says that mind connects matter and spirit.

 

116:3.2 The mind circuits emanating from these varied intelligence focuses represent the cosmic arena of creature choice. Mind is the flexible reality which creatures and Creators can so readily manipulate; it is the
vital link connecting matter and spirit
.

 

Mind is the reality that is easily manipulated by personality. Mind is the place where experience takes place and also where experience can be harmonized with the divine. This is done in gradual, cyclic progressions. On our level, they choose to call it psychic circles, but I like to think of it as "narrowing the gulf" between what' is real and what is not real.

 

116:6.7 In the seven superuniverses, however, there is great divergence; there is a wide gulf between cosmic energy and divine spirit; therefore is there a greater
experiential potential for mind action in harmonizing and eventually unifying physical pattern with spiritual purposes.

 

Mind is dominant over matter (physical) and spirit is dominant over mind. Mind is always working to master the physical and evolve toward the spirit. Make sense?

 

42:12.15 Mind universally dominates matter, even as it is in turn responsive to the ultimate overcontrol of spirit.

 

You see, if you consider your mind to be a ministry of the presence of God which has power over all that is material, then it becomes something valuable and worth elevating. If you don't believe in God, then mind becomes an empty and depressing place with no true value and without an "other" presence to guide and teach, it's a lonely place too. And unfortunately, some people think that their minds are God, a bit of a problem there I'd say. But you know what, I have volumes and volumes to say on this subject. Maybe I'll just stop here since chances are no one is going to understand what I'm saying anyway. Don't want to be accused of lecturing again . . . heaven forbid!

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I believe, by using the word "connoting", the authors mean, "as a condition or consequence of" (Oxford American Dictionary). Therefore it would say: Mind is a phenomenon "that is a consequence of the presence-activity of living ministry in addition to varied energy systems. I don't see what's so hard to understand about that unless it's the "living ministry" part. Living ministry implies (connotes) that there is a personality in charge of mind, the Infinite Spirit, Creative Spirit, whatever you want to call her/him.

 

Yes, I understand what it means to say that mind implies or presupposes the presence-activity of living minstry. When I said "I have no idea what that means" it was in response to your statement that mind is "living ministry, added to energy."

 

TUB says: "Material mind is the arena in which human personalities live, are self-conscious, make decisions, choose God or forsake him, eternalize or destroy themselves. (111:1.3)" The morontia mind that we are evolving as the soul is the arena in which our personality can potentially live, be self-conscious and make decisions if we are diligent in completing the psychic circles. The morontia mind comes first and then the morontia substance on which it can function (remember morontia mind cannot function in the material world). When a personality identifies sufficiently with the morontia mind to the point where it requires a morontia substrate with which to function, fusion occurs. Until then, it depends on natural death.

 

So, when you say that morontia mind "comes first," you are asserting that it exists prior to the morontia substrate?--unlike material mind, which cannot exist prior to its material substrate. If so, I'm puzzled. In virtue of what, if not its morontia substrate, is it called "morontia mind"? After all, "material mind" is so-called precisely in virtue of its material substrate.

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Are they describing a form which can be encircuited by a system of mind? Is our soul really "morontia mind"? Or is it better described as "a new vehicle

for personality manifestation." [(1232.5) 112:5.4]. It was my understanding

that within the substance of this new form, a morontia variant of the cosmic

mind can be encircuited. [(1234.6) 112:5.17]

 

The human soul is the morontia-mind embryo which makes up the nucleus of the repersonalized morontia mind on the mansion worlds. It may be more adequately described as pre-morontial (meaning not fully morontial), but morontial none the less. In the flesh, the morontia soul is not the full functioning morontia mind that is "encircuited" on the mansion worlds as part of the morontia mind-body form used to make contact with "nonspiritual reality". That is why I believe fusion takes place, it happens when the soul evolves to such a point where it requires the full encircuitment (new word) of the morontia variant of the cosmic mind.

 

112:5.16 The situation which makes repersonalization possible is brought about in the resurrection halls of the morontia receiving planets of a local universe. Here in these life-assembly chambers the supervising authorities provide that relationship of universe energy—morontial, mindal, and spiritual—which makes possible the reconsciousizing of the sleeping survivor. The reassembly of the constituent parts of a onetime material personality involves:

112:5.17 1. The fabrication of a suitable form, a morontia energy pattern, in which the new survivor can make contact with nonspiritual reality, and within which the morontia variant of the cosmic mind can be encircuited.

112:5.20 The fact of repersonalization consists in the seizure of the encircuited morontia phase of the newly segregated cosmic mind by the awakening human self.

 

110:6.21 The seven circles embrace mortal experience extending from the highest purely animal level to the lowest actual contactual morontia level of self-consciousness as a personality experience. The mastery of the first cosmic circle signalizes the attainment of premorontia mortal maturity and marks the termination of the conjoint ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits as an exclusive influence of mind action in the human personality.
Beyond the first circle, mind becomes increasingly akin to the intelligence of the morontia stage of evolution, the conjoined ministry of the cosmic mind and the superadjutant endowment of the Creative Spirit of a local universe.

 

You ask if our soul is really morontia mind. What else would it be if it becomes increasingly akin to the intelligence of the morontia stage of evolution? First, I guess we have to agree that the soul is morontial and then that it is part of mind ministry. TUB clearly states that the soul is morontial and it also mentions that it contains the creature mind-matrix:

 

39:3.3 Even mortal man may contribute to the evolution of universe law, for these very seraphim do faithfully and fully portray, not necessarily man’s transient and conscious desires, but rather the true longings of the inner man, the evolving
morontia soul
of the material mortal on the worlds of space.

 

47:3.3
The creature mind-matrix and the passive potentials of identity are present in the morontia soul
intrusted to the keeping of the seraphic destiny guardians. And it is the reuniting of the morontia-soul trust of the seraphim and the spirit-mind trust of the Adjuster that reassembles creature personality and constitutes resurrection of a sleeping survivor.

 

107:5.5 When a Thought Adjuster is fused with the evolving immortal
morontia soul
of the surviving human, the mind of the Adjuster can only be identified as persisting apart from the creature’s mind until the ascending mortal attains spirit levels of universe progression.

 

Evidence that the soul is a level of the mind can be found in the following quotes. Because the soul is derived from mind we have trouble discerning the difference between one level of mind, intellect, from a higher mind, the Adjuster-derived soul (that is until the psyche, meaning mind, evolves within the psychic circles):

 

110:4.2 The Thought Adjuster is engaged in a constant effort so to
spiritualize your mind as to evolve your morontia soul
; but you yourself are mostly unconscious of this inner ministry. You are quite incapable of distinguishing the product of your own material intellect from that of the conjoint activities of your soul and the Adjuster.

 

110:6.18 The mastery of the cosmic circles is related to the quantitative growth of the
morontia soul
, the
comprehension
of supreme meanings.

 

111:1.1 Though the work of Adjusters is spiritual in nature, they must, perforce, do all their work upon an
intellectual foundation
.
Mind is the human soil
from which the spirit Monitor must evolve the
morontia soul
with the co-operation of the indwelt personality.

 

112:5.4 But mortal personality, through its own choosing, possesses the power of transferring its seat of identity
from the passing material-intellect system to the higher morontia-soul system
which, in association with the Thought Adjuster, is created as a new vehicle for personality manifestation.

 

112:6.7 Mortal mind, prior to death, is self-consciously independent of the Adjuster presence; adjutant mind needs only the associated material-energy pattern to enable it to operate. But the morontia soul, being superadjutant, does not retain self-consciousness without the Adjuster when deprived of the material-mind mechanism. This evolving soul does, however, possess a continuing character derived from the decisions of its former associated adjutant mind, and this character becomes
active memory
when the patterns thereof are energized by the returning Adjuster.

 

This fact of the soul having character is evidence that it is an experiential mind phenomenon. Usually, we think of the personality as having character, but it is the soul (the experiential morontia mind-matrix) which gives the personality character, both in this life and in the next. This is why soul powers and soul fruits are manifested by the personality since the morontia soul cannot function, in and of itself, on this material world. It requires a morontia substrate on which to function which automatically puts it into the next world if it so desires to do so. (and yes the soul can desire and make decisions if the personality allows it) Make sense?

 

Here I imagine an exquisite feedback between our evolving morontial forms

and our evolving engagement with morontia level of mind -- our substantial

form increasingly reflecting our evolving status, and intent.

 

If you have actual experience of all this, I am keen to update my view ;)

Nigel

 

There may be more to the morontia mind, but I don't remember reading anything about it other than what I've posted, and obviously I haven't fused, so I can't tell you from personal experience. But I do have soul-consciousness, if you care to believe me, and I was made to understand that my soul is truly embryonic with lots of growing to do before reaching any level of proficiency (lots). I know it's morontial because I'm conscious of having experienced morontia places and morontia persons, albeit on a very elementary level and with wholly inadequate comprehension most of the time. I'm always left with the sense that there are new puzzlements to solve, new mountains to climb, which is rather fun. I can't prove any of it though. Nope, none of it. Won't even try.

 

So yeah, I do have actual experience, but just like everything else morontial, it can't be described easily or adequately. It is entirely experiential and not intellectual in the finite sense. If I try to describe an experience, you might think I'm nuts. Or maybe you already do . . . hmmmm. You know, John described four beasties, I think that's kinda nuts, but I didn't have his experience, so who am I to say? Would you think a Melchizedek in a short-sleeve, button-down, casual shirt holding a clipboard is nuts or sadly marred? Well, it kinda is unless you were there to get the mental communication from him, direct from his mature mind to my embryonic morontia mind. It was quite instructive and accomplished without any fanfare or tumult within the mind. The words, "school of life" have always stayed with me. They mean more to me than just words because the words came with a full package of understanding that cannot be explained, kinda like mota. In a way, it was so simple to comprehend but not at all simple to explain, which is the hallmark of experience. But again . . . I digress . . . don't want to have to sit in the dunce chair, in this school of life, just for digressing. No I don't. (Probably shouldn't have told you all that . . . oh well).

 

34:4.12 But it was of Salvington that John wrote: “And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices” — the universe broadcasts to the local systems. He also envisaged the directional control creatures of the local universe, the living compasses of the headquarters world. This directional control in Nebadon is maintained by the four control creatures of Salvington, who operate over the universe currents and are ably assisted by the first functioning mind-spirit, the adjutant of intuition, the spirit of “quick understanding.” But the description of these four creatures — called beasts — has been sadly marred; they are of unparalleled beauty and exquisite form.

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Yes, I understand what it means to say that mind implies or presupposes the presence-activity of living minstry. When I said "I have no idea what that means" it was in response to your statement that mind is "living ministry, added to energy."

 

So, are you having difficulty accepting the fact that mind exists apart from energy? I'm guessing you do if you think that mind is produced by the electrical energy activity of the brain. That's not the way it works; but before I go off on a tangent trying to explain why that's not the way it works, let me know if I'm understanding you correctly.

 

 

 

So, when you say that morontia mind "comes first," you are asserting that it exists prior to the morontia substrate?--unlike material mind, which cannot exist prior to its material substrate.

 

As I said above, mind does exist prior to the presence of material substrate on which it can function. Mind is a spirit entity entirely separate from anything physical or morontial. It includes different types of spirit ministry, such as adjutant mind spirits. These spirits of mind are always present even if there is no substrate in existence for them to work with. In other words, if the world should implode and no life existed on it, mind would still be present, waiting for life to reappear. On this world, mind is actually "borrowed" by matter and the mind adjutants really reside on a separate sphere, the world of the Life-Carriers.

 

If so, I'm puzzled. In virtue of what, if not its morontia substrate, is it called "morontia mind"? After all, "material mind" is so-called precisely in virtue of its material substrate.

 

No, no. The adjectives, "material" and "morontial" are meant to describe the energy system on which mind is working. Mind is not energy and energy is a form of matter. (0:6.1) Those words also describe what phases of mind are in action because only certain phases of mind can operate on each level. But mind is completely separate from its substrate. Mind is a spirit presence manifested at different functioning levels, two of which we've chosen to call "material" or "morontial". I hope this is clear.

 

The whole idea of mind being a separate spirit entity and part of God's personal ministry is new to this revelation and crucial to understand in all its complexities. I know the use of the word "mind" gets confusing because we tend to attach old meanings to it. It's the same problem Jesus had with the kingdom of God message during his time. Unfortunately, the use of new words can sometimes make things even more confusing. Better to use the old words and keep finding new ways to explain these revealed concepts. And that's part of my problem, trying to figuring out how people are defining these things in their own minds in order to "readjust" the thinking along the lines of the revelation (as best as I understand it, which is another issue altogether). I can't imagine how the Adjusters do what they do, it has to be massively frustrating. Massively! At least that's my take on the whole thing.

 

9:5.3 The unique feature of mind is that it can be
bestowed
upon such a wide range of life. Through his creative and creature associates the Third Source and Center ministers to all minds on all spheres. He ministers to human and subhuman intellect through the adjutants of the local universes and, through the agency of the physical controllers, ministers even to the lowest nonexperiencing entities of the most primitive types of living things. And always is the direction of mind a ministry of mind-spirit or mind-energy personalities.

 

Incidentally, I've always wondered if that above quote is referring to plants when it says "lowest nonexperiencing entities of the most primitive types of living things." That would be cool and would explain those studies that show that plants flourish when talked to or prayed over. But I digress . . . AGAIN

Edited by Bonita

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So, are you having difficulty accepting the fact that mind exists apart from energy? I'm guessing you do if you think that mind is produced by the electrical energy activity of the brain. That's not the way it works; but before I go off on a tangent trying to explain why that's not the way it works, let me know if I'm understanding you correctly.

 

At this point, I'm primarily concerned with mortal mind, also called "material mind" in the UB. I understand that even this level of mind is not, according to the UB, wholly physical, since it presupposes the involvement of "spirit", whatever that is. Spirit, in the UB, appears to be yet another form of substance, whose properties are even less clear than those of morontia.

 

As I said above, mind does exist prior to the presence of material substrate on which it can function. Mind is a spirit entity entirely separate from anything physical or morontial. It includes different types of spirit ministry, such as adjutant mind spirits. These spirits of mind are always present even if there is no substrate in existence for them to work with. In other words, if the world should implode and no life existed on it, mind would still be present, waiting for life to reappear. On this world, mind is actually "borrowed" by matter and the mind adjutants really reside on a separate sphere, the world of the Life-Carriers.

 

Mind in general may exist, but do individual minds exist sans material or morontia substrate?

 

The whole idea of mind being a separate spirit entity and part of God's personal ministry is new to this revelation and crucial to understand in all its complexities. I know the use of the word "mind" gets confusing because we tend to attach old meanings to it. It's the same problem Jesus had with the kingdom of God message during his time. Unfortunately, the use of new words can sometimes make things even more confusing. Better to use the old words and keep finding new ways to explain these revealed concepts. And that's part of my problem, trying to figuring out how people are defining these things in their own minds in order to "readjust" the thinking along the lines of the revelation (as best as I understand it, which is another issue altogether). I can't imagine how the Adjusters do what they do, it has to be massively frustrating. Massively! At least that's my take on the whole thing.

 

Perhaps frustration is impossible for pre-personal/impersonal entities!

 

But I agree that the UB's treatment of mind is unlike anything else I've encountered, which is why I want to understand it as best I can. The philosophy of mind is an area that I've studied a lot, and I'm as well acquainted with its difficulties as anyone.

 

Possibly we should start a separate thread just for the purpose of laying out the UB's view of mind.

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At this point, I'm primarily concerned with mortal mind, also called "material mind" in the UB. I understand that even this level of mind is not, according to the UB, wholly physical, since it presupposes the involvement of "spirit", whatever that is. Spirit, in the UB, appears to be yet another form of substance, whose properties are even less clear than those of morontia.

 

 

Possibly we should start a separate thread just for the purpose of laying out the UB's view of mind.

 

 

 

It would appear the U.B's definition of Material is completely different than our concept of Material.

 

(9.10) 0:6.8 Mind is a phenomenon connoting the presence-activity of living ministry in addition to varied energy systems; and this is true on all levels of intelligence. In personality, mind ever intervenes between spirit and matter; therefore is the universe illuminated by three kinds of light: material light, intellectual insight, and spirit luminosity.

 

VI. Energy and Pattern

 

(9.3) 0:6.1 Any and all things responding to the personality circuit of the Father, we call personal. Any and all things responding to the spirit circuit of the Son, we call spirit. Any and all that responds to the mind circuit of the Conjoint Actor, we call mind, mind as an attribute of the Infinite Spirit — mind in all its phases. Any and all that responds to the material-gravity circuit centering in nether Paradise, we call matter — energy-matter in all its metamorphic states.

 

(9.4) 0:6.2 ENERGY we use as an all-inclusive term applied to spiritual, mindal, and material realms. Force is also thus broadly used. Power is ordinarily limited to the designation of the electronic level of material or linear-gravity-responsive matter in the grand universe. Power is also employed to designate sovereignty. We cannot follow your generally accepted definitions of force, energy, and power. There is such paucity of language that we must assign multiple meanings to these terms.

Edited by boomshuka

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Hi All ;)

 

A most Fascinating Topic

and interesting personal insights.

 

 

'' (9.10) 0:6.8 Mind is a phenomenon connoting the presence-activity of living ministry in addition to varied energy systems; and this is true on all levels of intelligence. In personality, mind ever intervenes between spirit and matter; therefore is the universe illuminated by three kinds of light: material light, intellectual insight, and spirit luminosity.''

 

Hope you dont mind a Question from the Peanut Gallery .

 

But Just What IS = ''Spirit luminosity.'' ?

 

IS IT Spirit Reflectivity ?

 

Soul Growth ?

 

Fruits of the Spirit ?

 

Personality that Shines ?

 

A Essence of Mortal or Morontia Levels ?

 

A mind level/s of Spirit Awareness ?

 

A Combo Platter ?

 

Faith son

Coop

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Mind in general may exist, but do individual minds exist sans material or morontia substrate?

 

Last night I started to formulate an answer to this question because I anticipated you would ask it today. It has to do with pattern. But before I go off on that tangent you should know that even individual minds are part of the whole. Do you recall that time when Dr. Sadler decided to test the sleeping subject and held 52 questions in his mind without writing them down or sharing them with anyone? Then suddenly, the celestial contact got permission to just pluck that information right out of his mind and answer most of those questions. There are no walls. Mind is ubiquitous. What goes on in your mind is part of what goes on in my mind and vice versa. It's a matter of sensitivity and receptivity. It seems like a mystery because we fear it. Jesus' human mind knew what was going on in everyone else's mind, and we know we can have Jesus' mind any time we want it. Mind is like a massive receptacle. And, the Supreme contains the experiential part of mind, but I'm digressing.

 

Finally, as a test, I worked out fifty-two questions privately and had them in my own mind, deciding to wait and see whether those so-called student visitors might be able to divine what was in my own consciousness. (p.238) One night, a particularly electrifying personality seemed to be present from a distant planet and had greatly excited us by his comments. As he was about to go, I addressed him saying, 'How can you prove that you are who you say you are?' He replied, 'I cannot prove it - but you cannot prove that I am not.' He then stunned me by continuing, 'However, I have just received permission to answer forty-six of the fifty-two questions you have been holding in your mind.'Dr. Ruth [Lena Sadler] spoke up and said, 'Why Henry, [William Sadler] you haven't had such questions, have you?' And I had to admit, " Yes, Ruth, the exact number.'This personality then proceeded to give me the answers to the forty-six questions as promised. When he had finally finished he said, 'If you people really knew what you had here, you would not take up our time asking silly, trivial questions like this. You would ask something really significant and important.'

 

I suppose we can speculate that past life memories might be derived from a mind-pool of thoughts, but I honestly don't know for sure; that idea sounds weak to me. However, mind can potentially contact mind regardless of its substrate, but this is definitely going off on yet another tangent.

 

Possibly we should start a separate thread just for the purpose of laying out the UB's view of mind.

 

So yeah, should we break this off into another thread before I start talking about pattern and individual mind? That way HSTa can get back to mathematical formulas for the physics of morontia substance without me getting in the way of the discussion with my posts on morontia mind. Then everyone will be happy.

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But Just What IS = ''Spirit luminosity.'' ?

 

I've always considered spirit luminosity, on our level of experience, to be the pilot light.

 

107:4.5 In the universe of Nebadon this Paradise luminosity is widespreadly known as the “pilot light”; on Uversa it is called the “light of life.” On Urantia this phenomenon has sometimes been referred to as that “true light which lights every man who comes into the world.”

 

113:6.2 The instant the pilot light in the human mind disappears, the spirit luminosity which seraphim associate with the presence of the Adjuster, . . .

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So yeah, should we break this off into another thread before I start talking about pattern and individual mind? That way HSTa can get back to mathematical formulas for the physics of morontia substance without me getting in the way of the discussion with my posts on morontia mind. Then everyone will be happy.

 

Okay, let's do that. I'll be fairly busy over the weekend but I'll start the thread and at least have time to check in once in a while.

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Hi All ;)

 

A most Fascinating Topic

and interesting personal insights.

 

 

'' (9.10) 0:6.8 Mind is a phenomenon connoting the presence-activity of living ministry in addition to varied energy systems; and this is true on all levels of intelligence. In personality, mind ever intervenes between spirit and matter; therefore is the universe illuminated by three kinds of light: material light, intellectual insight, and spirit luminosity.''

 

Hope you dont mind a Question from the Peanut Gallery .

 

But Just What IS = ''Spirit luminosity.'' ?

 

IS IT Spirit Reflectivity ?

 

Haha Coop I think the revelator's were reading your mind when they made this revelation because the very next sentence is this.

 

(10.1) 0:6.9 Light — spirit luminosity — is a word symbol, a figure of speech, which connotes the personality manifestation characteristic of spirit beings of diverse orders. This luminous emanation is in no respect related either to intellectual insight or to physical-light manifestations.

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