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UB (865.3) 77:8.10 Midwayers vary greatly in their abilities to make contact with the seraphim above and with their human cousins below. It is exceedingly difficult, for instance, for the primary midwayers to make direct contact with material agencies. They are considerably nearer the angelic type of being and are therefore usually assigned to working with, and ministering to, the spiritual forces resident on the planet. They act as companions and guides for celestial visitors and student sojourners, whereas the secondary creatures are almost exclusively attached to the ministry of the material beings of the realm.

 

UB (865.4) 77:8.11 The 1,111 loyal secondary midwayers are engaged in important missions on earth. As compared with their primary associates, they are decidedly material. They exist just outside the range of mortal vision and possess sufficient latitude of adaptation to make, at will, physical contact with what humans call “material things.” These unique creatures have certain definite powers over the things of time and space, not excepting the beasts of the realm.

 

 

I’m not sure about how to interpret this: They exist just outside the range of mortal vision…

 

To me the statement seems do indicate that the secondary Midwayers are invisible in the octave of visible light (UB octave 46, i.e. wavelengths about 0.4 to … 0.8 micrometer) but they might be seen outside of this electromagnetic octave? Or are they for instance only visible in the ultraviolet range with apparatus that are able to convert ultraviolet light to visible impressions?

 

I don’t think that it is impossible to assume that we might one day be able to visualise secondary Midwayers for instance by ultraviolet to visible light converters.

As a reminder of what might be possible to see in the future, I would like to remind you of the change in

“latitude of adaptation” of a morontia midwayer:

 

UB (2029.1) 190:0.1 THE resurrected Jesus now prepares to spend a short period on Urantia for the purpose of experiencing the ascending morontia career of a mortal of the realms.

 

UB (2032.1) 190:2.3 In the meantime, as they looked for James and before they found him, while he stood there in the garden near the tomb, he became aware of a near-by presence, as if someone had touched him on the shoulder; and when he turned to look, he beheld the gradual appearance of a strange form by his side. He was too much amazed to speak and too frightened to flee.

 

UB (2033.1) 190:3.1 The fifth morontia manifestation of Jesus to the recognition of mortal eyes occurred in the presence of some twenty-five women believers assembled at the home of Joseph of Arimathea, at about fifteen minutes past four o’clock on this same Sunday afternoon.

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Are you sure that the secondary Midwayers are morontial? I believe the primaries might be, but I'm not certain of the secondaries.

 

Jesus' morontia form was made visible by transformers, midwayers and certain morontia personalities. It seems to me that if the midwayers were morontial, they would have said, "other" morontia personalities. But I don't know for sure. Remember that they were created by a combination of sexual (physical) and nonsexual (?morontia or mental) methods.

 

189:4.11 These human eyes were enabled to see the morontia form of Jesus because of the special ministry of the transformers and the midwayers in association with certain of the morontia personalities then accompanying Jesus.

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It would seem from reading the u.b that some individuals have seen the mansion world's not just in their imagination but in a real vision. Some have described very specific details about the mansion world's and confused these places with Paradise. I have no idea how that is possible though, I can only guess that they were cosmically minded and functioning with a fully adjutant mind. I am guessing they were all advanced mindally and spiritually, but for them to see the mansion worlds in detail I doubt they were having a vivid imaginative experience, I would venture to say they were viewing these world's for a moment very intently. My guess though is that it was threw the soul, some way some how the experience is probably undescribable, perhaps it would be similar to conversation experience.

 

Greetings boomshuka,

 

Okay, you say that some individuals have seen the mansion worlds with "real" vision. What do you mean by that? The word "real" is just as confusing to some as the word "material". Also, there is an element of creative imagination involved in all of this since the creative mind is the mind attuned to the Adjuster, the Father of the soul.

 

109:5.1 Supreme and self-acting adjusters are often able to contribute factors of spiritual import to the human mind when it flows freely in the liberated but controlled channels of creative imagination.

 

But before embarking on those discussions, I will reiterate that the mind that sees the morontia mansion worlds is the morontia mind, not the adjutant mind. The adjutant mind is synonymous with the material mind. Now which one would you consider more real? Morontia mind (soul) or material mind (adjutants)? Which mind is created and which mind is borrowed?

 

I'm not sure if this is the place to include further discussion on what is really real or what role creative imagination plays in these things. You'll have to decide since this is your thread.

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I wanted to add another little tidbit to this conversation about Midwayers. In the paper entitled, A History of the Urantia Movement, by Dr. William S. Sadler, we read that during the preliminary contacts, the Midwayers were very "real" and that they obviously had conversations with the contact group:

 

But, again, we understood little as to their meaning. We also learned about numerous orders of angels. We heard about "Thought Adjusters", but our concept of the meaning of the term was vague and indefinite. We had

acquired a fuzzy concept of the morontia level of existence -- but we never heard the word "morontia" used until the Papers started. The midwayers were very real to us -- we frequently talked with them during our varied "contacts." We quite fully understood that the secondary midwayers supervised the contacts.

 

Does this mean that the mortals had contact with the morontia level of reality? It's hard to discern from what is written.

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Are you sure that the secondary Midwayers are morontial? I believe the primaries might be, but I'm not certain of the secondaries.

 

Jesus' morontia form was made visible by transformers, midwayers and certain morontia personalities. It seems to me that if the midwayers were morontial, they would have said, "other" morontia personalities. But I don't know for sure. Remember that they were created by a combination of sexual (physical) and nonsexual (?morontia or mental) methods.

 

189:4.11 These human eyes were enabled to see the morontia form of Jesus because of the special ministry of the transformers and the midwayers in association with certain of the morontia personalities then accompanying Jesus.

 

A “morontia type of mind” obviously is based on a morontia type of body:

 

UB (424.7) 38:9.7 Secondary midwayers are physically energized by the Adamic technique, spiritually encircuited by the seraphic, and intellectually endowed with the morontia transition type of mind.

 

There is no doubt about the fact, that the UBook describes to us that a morontia body is a form of modified physical matter!

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A “morontia type of mind” obviously is based on a morontia type of body:

 

UB (424.7) 38:9.7 Secondary midwayers are physically energized by the Adamic technique, spiritually encircuited by the seraphic, and intellectually endowed with the morontia transition type of mind.

 

There is no doubt about the fact, that the UBook describes to us that a morontia body is a form of modified physical matter!

 

I kind of agree that it makes sense that there is a morontia transition type of body for the secondaries. ( I wonder what they mean by the word "transition"?) But both you and I have morontia mind and no morontia body, so your argument is not solid.

 

Also, your point that morontia is a modified form of physical matter doesn't mean squat if we can't physically perceive or manipulate it with our current physical apparatus, body and/or otherwise. Even if you could theorize what it is and how it is functions, no one would ever be able to create a single bit of morontial substance. It's just an exercise of the intellect. Why not experience the morontial substance with the morontia mind instead? It's much more enlightening.

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Again, it is clearer than ever to me that you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm really sorry about that since I'm being as clear as I can be. Paul's experience did not impinge on him materially. He experienced it with his soul and then attempted to describe it with his material mind. The material mind attempts to makes sense of these things, but it can only approximate; it will always be partial.

 

Actually, I do understand what you're saying, but I think it's false. Paul's (or anyone's) soul is itself a morontia entity. His mortal mind is a material entity (although it is not merely that). In order for Paul, or anyone else, even to attempt to describe, think about, or otherwise conceptualize any experience of the morontia realm, the morontia mind itself must impinge upon the material mind, because it's the material mind that does the work of moving the hand that holds the pen, or working the vocal apparatus. You cannot claim that the material mind reports, however inadequately, morontia reality and at the same time claim that morontia reality never impinges upon the material level. The two claims are contradictory.

 

Incidentally, where does it say in TUB that the morontia impinges on the material? It doesn't. Morontia is supermaterial, an entirely different reality. The morontia is a realm of reality that bridges the two levels, material and spiritual, but it is a separate reality. There is no impinging. The morontia world does not influence the material world, otherwise the soul would be able to function in the material world, and it cannot.

 

This is simply incoherent. If there is no causal interacting, there is no "bridging". Impingement=causal interaction.

 

111:3.2 During the life in the flesh the evolving soul is enabled to reinforce the supermaterial decisions of the mortal mind.
The soul, being supermaterial, does not of itself function on the material level of human experience.
Neither can this subspiritual soul, without the collaboration of some spirit of Deity, such as the Adjuster, function above the morontia level.

 

If it doesn't function on the material level at all, then how is it possible for your brain to allow you, or Paul, to even attempt to describe it?

 

If you want to discover supermaterial properties of morontia, then you must engage the supermaterial portion of your mind.

 

And how shall I engage them, if not causally?

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I kind of agree that it makes sense that there is a morontia transition type of body for the secondaries. ( I wonder what they mean by the word "transition"?) But both you and I have morontia mind and no morontia body, so your argument is not solid.

 

Also, your point that morontia is a modified form of physical matter doesn't mean squat if we can't physically perceive or manipulate it with our current physical apparatus, body and/or otherwise. Even if you could theorize what it is and how it is functions, no one would ever be able to create a single bit of morontial substance. It's just an exercise of the intellect. Why not experience the morontial substance with the morontia mind instead? It's much more enlightening.

 

It isn’t any more obvious where our views differ, Bonita! But “latitude of adaptation” is a good expression referring to vision in genera!

 

I suggest that you read the following in order to get some understanding of what a complicated process even human vision is:

 

This page continues the "new testament" view of color that was introduced in the discussion of the basic forms of color. There I suggested that color perception is fundamentally adapted to interpret all color stimuli as arising from a three dimensional world of reflecting surfaces and light sources.

 

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/color4.html

 

Luminance benchmarks for physical light sources are difficult to pin down because luminance depends on how the viewing geometry is defined.

 

“he beheld the gradual appearance of a strange form by his side.”

 

In my link a gradual adaptation process of human vision is described in detail:

 

• 0 minutes (sunset, A) (solar altitude 0°, illuminance ~200 lux). There was a full range of color against the white background that appeared somewhat subdued, like a book under a reading light.

 

• +15 minutes (:) (–4°, ~20 lux). The white paper begins to dim and soften, appearing slightly luminous; magenta, red and orange become slightly lighter valued and more saturated, as if glowing; red violet, purple and blues darken slightly. Greens acquire the softened appearance of the whites, and a few minutes after the reds appear to brighten, yellow green and middle green appear also to brighten slightly. Yellows lose their sunny, floral character and begin to shift toward a tan or ochre.

 

• +30 minutes © (–8°,~2 lux). Bright yellow colors disappear and become indistinguishable from ochre, raw umber or green gold; the relative green or red content of yellow comes to the fore, causing yellows to appear either green or pinkish tan. Blues and greens begin to merge; dark purple appears jet black. The colors show a much reduced chroma, but still appear relatively saturated because lightness is also substantially reduced.

 

• +45 minutes (–12°,~0.2 lux). All colors have been reduced to three percepts — tan, grue and a warm (reddish) dark gray. The darkest blue or green colors turn to black. Brown appears very dark but warm.

 

• +60 minutes (D) (–16°, ~0.02 lux). Near the limit of color vision. The paper appears a silky grayish blue and lightness contrast is much reduced; all reds and browns collapse into a generic "warm" that is much darker than the photopic colors. All greens and blues appear as a grayish "grue" (green blue) that is lighter (greens) or darker (blues) than the photopic colors. Yellows, ochre and green gold drop to a mid value with a faint orange cast.

 

• +90 minutes (E) (<0.001 lux). Under complete scotopic vision color is objectively lost (tested by looking at unfamiliar magazine covers), but some trace of color remains in the familiar sheet (especially for colors with a very light or dark scotopic value), probably due to memory color and/or rudimentary hue perception based on "grue" rods and "red" L cones.

Edited by HSTa

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I suggest that you read the following I order to get some understanding of what a complicated process even human vision is:

 

HSTa, I'm a physician, a physician specializing in the neurosciences. I think I understand human vision.

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HSTa, I'm a physician, a physician specializing in the neurosciences. I think I understand human vision.

 

I think you can learn even more by reading my reference.

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I did read it and it didn't change my mind one bit. If you're interested in modifying human vision in some way in order to see at least secondary Midwayers (we can argue later as to whether or not they are morontia, it's not important to the discussion), and if you believe that our ability to visualize them has to do with light frequencies and vibration of whatever substance it is that they consist of, then you should consider the flicker-fusion frequency thresholds of human rods and cones. I suppose you could engineer an implantable device in the eye that has an extended threshold, but you will also have to adapt the brain in order to transmit and interpret that data. It's no small wonder to me why so many different personalities were required to make the morontia Jesus visible to the human eye and audible to the human ear. I'm not convinced that anything is going to change in regards to that any time soon.

 

But by all means, use your scientific mind to continue speculating about these things. Just like the philosopher who stands on the shore analyzing the water, you too are watching the rest of us swim in the waters of morontia experience. I think there is plenty of room for science and philosophy, but neither discipline alone, nor together, can begin to comprehend the morontial or the spiritual even if you spend the rest of your life attempting it. It's all very interesting I'm sure, but experience with the morontial is exhilarating.

 

But I'll shut up about this because it is clear to me that my message is not getting across.

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On a related note, I'm reminded of "adjutant mind". Is there anything less material

than a "level of consciousness of the Divine Minister" [(402.1) 36:5.4] ? Yet

when engaged with our neuro-bio-chemistry, these spiritual circuits can serve we

material creatures as a system of mind. Seriously, and as a physicist, I regard the

phenomenon of material matter to be more miraculous by far than fandors.

 

As for midwayers, some of my best friends eye cannot see :)

Nigel

 

There is a danger of a certain kind of regress here, known in philosophy as a "third man argument", for reasons I won't go into. The gist of the problem is this: If you claim that morontia is a kind of substance that cannot, under any circumstances, causally interact with material substance, then the two substances obviously have nothing to do with each other. My material mind can have no idea at all of morontia; not just a distorted or inaccurate idea, but none at all. Morontia would be literally unthinkable. My morontia mind might be able to experience it, but my morontia mind could have no contact with my material mind, so that experience could not in any way register in my material mind.

 

If we say that contact between morontia mind and material mind must be mediated by some third thing, such as a spiritual mind circuit, then we get the very same problem again. Where we started with morontia somehow "bridging" between the material and the spiritual, we now require something spiritual to bridge between the material and morontial.

 

This is the kind of muddle that we get into if we suppose that morontia is a kind of nonmaterial substance that never impinges upon material substance.

 

As a physicist, you can appreciate the problem of saying just what it means for a substance to be material/physical. Descartes believed the essence of the physical is extension in space. Today, some would dispute whether various subatomic particles are indeed extended in space. So it's still an open question what material substances have in common, in virtue of which we call them "material." That question is more important when we introduce another kind of substance, morontia, that is purported to be nonmaterial. I don't expect that we could achieve a complete understanding of it (since we are far from a complete understanding of material substance itself), but surely we should be able to say something about how morontia substance and material substance are different, so that one of them merits the descriptor "nonmaterial". The same question arises when we consider spirit substance (12:8.16). If the essence of matter isn't extension, what is it? Are morontia substances extended in space? The idea of a temple of morontia suggests that they are.

 

If morontia, like matter, is extended in space and interacts causally with matter, isn't that just the same as saying it's a new form of matter?

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Greetings boomshuka,

 

Okay, you say that some individuals have seen the mansion worlds with "real" vision. What do you mean by that? The word "real" is just as confusing to some as the word "material". Also, there is an element of creative imagination involved in all of this since the creative mind is the mind attuned to the Adjuster, the Father of the soul.

 

109:5.1 Supreme and self-acting adjusters are often able to contribute factors of spiritual import to the human mind when it flows freely in the liberated but controlled channels of creative imagination.

 

But before embarking on those discussions, I will reiterate that the mind that sees the morontia mansion worlds is the morontia mind, not the adjutant mind. The adjutant mind is synonymous with the material mind. Now which one would you consider more real? Morontia mind (soul) or material mind (adjutants)? Which mind is created and which mind is borrowed?

 

I'm not sure if this is the place to include further discussion on what is really real or what role creative imagination plays in these things. You'll have to decide since this is your thread.

 

I don't know how this vision took place, all I can say is that alot of people who have viewed the mansioned world's have apparently seen it in great detail according to some account's in the u.b. (IMO) The 4 amazing creature's who act as compasse's have been seen in great detail, other aspects of the morontia world's seem to have been envisioned with great clarity by some human being's,(IMO) I have no idea how they did this and what is happening in this process.

 

I know that the soul is the offpsring of the mind and the thought adjuster, I have no idea how these different part's allow someone to actually have an experience like paul's. I would imagine the experience is happening in the superconsciousness, but I really have no idea. .

 

Which mind is created and which mind is borrowed? lol is that a test question? Obviously the human material mind is borrowed and the soul is created. Seing as soul is the conjoint offspring of the mind and thought adjuster.

 

You'll have to decide since this is your thread.

I really don't care what tangent's people go on in this thread, I don't take online conversation's all to seriously. Also I prefer not to be a "Thought Police", I'll leave that to the moderator's

 

But it was of Salvington that John wrote: "And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices"--the universe broadcasts to the local systems. He also envisaged the directional control creatures of the local universe, the living compasses of the headquarters world. This directional control in Nebadon is maintained by the four control creatures of Salvington, who operate over the universe currents and are ably assisted by the first functioning mind-spirit, the adjutant of intuition, the spirit of "quick understanding." But the description of these four creatures--called beasts--has been sadly marred; they are of unparalleled beauty and exquisite form.

 

These quote's from urantia would indicate that John was seing things in amazing clarity...

 

Revelation 19:4

And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

At the center of the seven angelic residential circles on Jerusem is located the headquarters of the Urantia advisory council, the four and twenty counselors. John the Revelator called them the four and twenty elders: "And round about the throne were four and twenty seats, and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment." The throne in the center of this group is the judgment seat of the presiding archangel, the throne of the resurrection roll call of mercy and justice for all Satania. This judgment seat has always been on Jerusem, but the twenty-four surrounding seats were placed in position no more than nineteen hundred years ago, soon after Christ Michael was elevated to the full sovereignty of Nebadon. These four and twenty counselors are his personal agents on Jerusem, and they have authority to represent the Master Son in all matters concerning the roll calls of Satania and in many other phases of the scheme of mortal ascension on the isolated worlds of the system. They are the designated agents for executing the special requests of Gabriel and the unusual mandates of Michael.
Edited by boomshuka

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Been meaning to create an account on the forum here after reading posts a while. This topic in particular touches on something that puzzled me recently, so I can't resist putting in a post or two now.

 

Until recently I always had an impression of morontia material as being rather insubstantial and invisible stuff to us regular material mortals, except under special circumstances. These passages have led me to wonder about that:

 

43:1.2 - The water of Edentia and similar architectural spheres is no different from the water of the evolutionary planets.

 

46:2.2 - The physical plant life and the morontia world of living things both require moisture, but this is largely supplied by the subsoil system of circulation which extends all over the sphere, even up to the very tops of the highlands. This water system is not entirely subsurface, for there are many canals interconnecting the sparkling lakes of Jerusem.

 

47:4.6 - Though you have morontia bodies, you continue, through all seven of these worlds, to eat, drink, and rest. You partake of the morontia order of food, a kingdom of living energy unknown on the material worlds. Both food and water are fully utilized in the morontia body.

 

I don't see how to read these except as saying that regular old H2O is utilized by morontia bodies, at least on the mansion worlds, which does mean causal interactions between the regular physical material of our everyday life and at least some types of morontia material. Which has seemed odd to me. It initially gives me the mental image that if a morontia being were standing here, the morontia substance of its body wouldn't necessarily be discernible, but I don't see why the H2O wouldn't be. He or she would have the appearance of a vaporous shape with even a small amount of water in its body. If their water content is anything like that of a human (50-70%?), their form would be very discernible.

 

We're told though that morontia reality is "a vast level intervening between the material and the spiritual", and that on the more material side of the spectrum it can be contactable by regular material beings like us:

 

189:2.3 - ...the morontia form can be made at one time as of the spirit so that it can become indifferent to ordinary matter, while at another time it can become discernible and contactable to material beings, such as the mortals of the realm.

 

Also, we're told that the first mansion world is "a very material sphere", with the other 6 worlds becoming progressively less material in character. My current guess is that the need for moisture is a part of these mostly material forms used during mansion world life, and that these bodies would be visible and contactable varieties of morontia substance to us.

 

Does morontia substance interact with physical substance? It seems that it must.

 

It seems to me also that way lately. At least some forms of the "vast level" of it.

 

Best,

 

Cal

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Cal, Your post reminded me of another example of something that "bridges the material/morontial continuum- the "tree of life." This was the shrub of Edentia which was rescued from the demise of Dalamatia and protected and utilized by Van and his Andonite companion Amadon for a hundred fifty thousand years.

 

P.826 - §1 This superplant stored up certain space-energies which were antidotal to the age-producing elements of animal existence. The fruit of the tree of life was like a superchemical storage battery, mysteriously releasing the life-extension force of the universe when eaten. This form of sustenance was wholly useless to the ordinary evolutionary beings on Urantia, but specifically it was serviceable to the one hundred materialized members of Caligastia's staff and to the one hundred modified Andonites who had contributed of their life plasm to the Prince's staff, and who, in return, were made possessors of that complement of life which made it possible for them to utilize the fruit of the tree of life for an indefinite extension of their otherwise mortal existence.

 

 

This sounds to me like a material reality with a morontial component or function.

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I don't see how to read these except as saying that regular old H2O is utilized by morontia bodies, at least on the mansion worlds, which does mean causal interactions between the regular physical material of our everyday life and at least some types of morontia material. Which has seemed odd to me. It initially gives me the mental image that if a morontia being were standing here, the morontia substance of its body wouldn't necessarily be discernible, but I don't see why the H2O wouldn't be. He or she would have the appearance of a vaporous shape with even a small amount of water in its body. If their water content is anything like that of a human (50-70%?), their form would be very discernible.

 

That's a very interesting point. Of course, we have no clue at all as to whether the water content of a morontia body is anywhere near that of an organic physical body. In our bodies, water is intimately involved in the way in which we get energy from food, and as a medium in which just about all chemical reactions occur. Electrolytes are required in almost all cellular processes, for example. It's possible that morontia physiology is fundamentally different, requiring far less water. If so, no vaporous shape might be discernible at all. From our standpoint, a morontia body might be a bounded region of greater humidity than the surrounding air (or it could be lesser humidity). This would be in principle detectable with sensitive instruments--and the cooperation of the morontia being, who would have to stand there and be probed--but not necessarily visible in any ordinary way.

 

It is, however, entirely sufficient to make the point that matter and morontia substance interact causally. Water can't be utilized without some causal transaction.

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There is a danger of a certain kind of regress here, known in philosophy as a "third man argument", for reasons I won't go into. The gist of the problem is this: If you claim that morontia is a kind of substance that cannot, under any circumstances, causally interact with material substance, then the two substances obviously have nothing to do with each other. My material mind can have no idea at all of morontia; not just a distorted or inaccurate idea, but none at all. Morontia would be literally unthinkable. My morontia mind might be able to experience it, but my morontia mind could have no contact with my material mind, so that experience could not in any way register in my material mind.

 

If we say that contact between morontia mind and material mind must be mediated by some third thing, such as a spiritual mind circuit, then we get the very same problem again. Where we started with morontia somehow "bridging" between the material and the spiritual, we now require something spiritual to bridge between the material and morontial.

 

This is the kind of muddle that we get into if we suppose that morontia is a kind of nonmaterial substance that never impinges upon material substance.

 

I don't think that anyone is suggesting the word "never" in regards to one substance "contacting" the other. Obviously, with all the appropriate transformers and other necessary personnel, these things have happened on various levels. But when it comes to substance, recall that Jesus asked Mary not to touch him in his morontia form. This must mean something about the two levels of substance and their ability to "impinge" upon one another. But, I believe that morontia mind does impinge (in a certain sense) upon the higher levels of mind which we are capable of experiencing during the life in the flesh. I'll explain more below.

 

111:1.5 Human consciousness rests gently upon the electrochemical mechanism below and
delicately touches
the spirit-morontia energy system above. Of neither of these two systems is the human being
ever completely conscious in his mortal life
; therefore must he work in mind, of which he is conscious.

 

There are multiple levels of mind, only one of which is conscious. I'm talking about human mind during the life in the flesh, the here and now. Everything we experience must go through mind regardless of what level it comes from, physical, morontial or spiritual.

 

103:6.6 Always must man’s inner spirit depend for its expression and self-realization upon the mechanism and technique of the mind. Likewise must man’s outer experience of material reality be predicated on the mind consciousness of the experiencing personality. Therefore are the spiritual and the material, the inner and the outer, human experiences always correlated with the mind function and conditioned, as to their conscious realization, by the mind activity.
Man experiences matter in his mind; he experiences spiritual reality in the soul but becomes conscious of this experience in his mind.
The intellect is the harmonizer and the ever-present conditioner and qualifier of the sum total of mortal experience. Both energy-things and spirit values are colored by their interpretation through the mind media of consciousness.

 

Just like the subconscious, the superconscious "impinges" upon the conscious, and depending upon the desires of the personality and its willingness to "engage", either subconscious or superconscious thoughts can enter into consciousness. However, the soul is a separate reality derived from both the mind and the Adjuster. It is not the superconscious, it is derived from both the superconscious and conscious mind, activated by personality; but it is a separate reality. Personality is a very important part of this discussion of the morontia mind which has not been addressed as of yet. Personality is in and of itself, self-conscious and capable of functioning on all levels. By its nature, it serves to unify all levels as well. Personality is the true bridge between the physical and the morontial, but in order to do so it must transfer its seat of identity from the material mind to the morontia mind (soul). I'll try to explain.

 

As the personality is working through the psychic/cosmic circles of attunement with the Adjuster and busily growing a morontia soul, the mind has only partial awareness of the soul, presumably because of personality. However, the soul itself, which is a separate reality, does not have full consciousness of the human mind or of the Adjuster until it evolves to a certain "phase" of consciousness, called soul-consciousness. At this level, the soul becomes aware of the human mind and the Adjuster (pre-personality).

 

111:3.4 Both the human mind and the divine Adjuster are conscious of the presence and differential nature of the evolving soul — the Adjuster fully, the
mind partially
.
The soul becomes increasingly conscious of both the mind and the Adjuster as associated identities, proportional to its own evolutionary growth
.

 

Once a personality reaches the level of soul consciousness a new level of mind is achieved which is capable of pre-morontia functioning, a superadjutant form of mind . . . (which I'm wondering is it similar to the "transition" morontia mind of the secondary Midwayers? Not sure.) This mind level of functioning is referred to as soul consciousness and it is a level at which supermaterial activities become conscious. Morontia is supermaterial. This is a level of self-realization which is another way to say personality realization due to Adjuster attunement. Personality is pivotal in unifying and actualizing this phenomenon. I can't stress this enough. Most of what happens on the level of morontia mind is unconscious until the personality has chosen to identify with the soul and the decision has become final. At this time the personality has access to the morontia mind, the Adjuster and to other morontia activities as well as the Supreme Being; and this happens even though the personality is not inhabiting a morontia body.

 

5:2.5 As the soul of joint mind and Adjuster creation becomes increasingly existent, there also evolves a
new phase
of soul consciousness which is capable of experiencing the presence, and of recognizing the spirit leadings and other
supermaterial activities
, of the Mystery Monitors.

 

110:6.16 Perhaps these psychic circles of mortal progression would be better denominated cosmic levels — actual meaning grasps and value realizations of
progressive approach to the morontia consciousness
of initial relationship of the evolutionary soul with the emerging Supreme Being. And it is this very relationship that makes it forever impossible fully to explain the significance of the cosmic circles to the material mind.

 

110:6.21 The seven circles embrace mortal experience extending from the highest purely animal level to the lowest actual
contactual morontia level of self-consciousness as a personality experience
. The mastery of the first cosmic circle signalizes the attainment of premorontia mortal maturity and marks the termination of the conjoint ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits as an exclusive influence of mind action in the human personality. Beyond the first circle,
mind becomes increasingly akin to the intelligence of the morontia stage of evolution
, the conjoined ministry of the cosmic mind and the
superadjutant
endowment of the Creative Spirit of a local universe.

 

112:6.9 The soul of survival value faithfully reflects both the qualitative and the quantitative actions and motivations of the material intellect, the former seat of the identity of selfhood. In the choosing of truth, beauty, and goodness, the mortal mind enters upon its premorontia universe career under the tutelage of the seven adjutant mind-spirits unified under the direction of the spirit of wisdom.
Subsequently, upon the completion of the seven circles of premorontia attainment, the superimposition of the endowment of morontia mind upon adjutant mind initiates the prespiritual or morontia career of local universe progression.

 

So, speaking only of morontia mind (not substance), there is impingement in that it appears much like a ladder or stairway upward in mind function. One leads to the other with a "superimposition" which has control over all that functions below it. My guess is that Paul and John were first circlers, although it is not impossible to believe that they had supreme or self-acting Adjusters who were capable of transferring thoughts to the conscious mind. Regardless, once the information was filtered by the material mind, it became interpreted by that same mind according to its level of function. Hence, the spectacular descriptions, the use of outdated metaphor and the appearance, to the unenlightened, of fanaticism/insanity on some level.

 

When it comes to morontia substance, I have mixed thoughts. During the final stages of light and life, corporeal beings are supposed to be able to interact in some way with the morontia temple (if I read that passage correctly). Does that mean that humans change physically in order to perceive it, or does it mean that they sense these things spiritually with their highly evolved souls, I don't know? The authors may have used the word "seat" metaphorically. On the other hand, TUB says that the Planetary Prince will remain invisible unless he is in the morontia temple where he will become visible. This tells me that certain transformations must take place within the temple which somehow bridge the gap between the physical and the morontial, in which case the temple itself might be invisible also until it is actually entered by corporeal beings. The building itself may be a transformer of some kind. Just speculating.

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So, speaking only of morontia mind (not substance), there is impingement in that it appears much like a ladder or stairway upward in mind function.ulating.

 

I'm not sure how you're making the distinction between morontia mind and morontia substance. I would've thought that morontia mind is realized in morontia substance, just as material mind is (partly) realized in material substance.

 

But when it comes to substance, recall that Jesus asked Mary not to touch him in his morontia form. This must mean something about the two levels of substance and their ability to "impinge" upon one another. But, I believe that morontia mind does impinge (in a certain sense) upon the higher levels of mind which we are capable of experiencing during the life in the flesh.

 

Possibly, Jesus didn't want Mary to experience something that might be frightening.

 

And yes, the "delicately touches" turn of phrase is very descriptive.

 

My interest in this thread, which I didn't start, lies in piecing together the various clues scattered through the UB about morontia, which is referred to over 600 times. From those references, how much can we actually work out about what morontia is? This is partly because I get very fidgety about using words whose meaning I have almost no understanding of. It's altogether too easy to get into the habit of using such words--not just in a UB context either.

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I don't think that anyone is suggesting the word "never" in regards to one substance "contacting" the other. Obviously, with all the appropriate transformers and other necessary personnel, these things have happened on various levels. But when it comes to substance, recall that Jesus asked Mary not to touch him in his morontia form. This must mean something about the two levels of substance and their ability to "impinge" upon one another. But, I believe that morontia mind does impinge (in a certain sense) upon the higher levels of mind which we are capable of experiencing during the life in the flesh. I'll explain more below.

 

111:1.5 Human consciousness rests gently upon the electrochemical mechanism below and
delicately touches
the spirit-morontia energy system above. Of neither of these two systems is the human being
ever completely conscious in his mortal life
; therefore must he work in mind, of which he is conscious.

 

There are multiple levels of mind, only one of which is conscious. I'm talking about human mind during the life in the flesh, the here and now. Everything we experience must go through mind regardless of what level it comes from, physical, morontial or spiritual.

 

103:6.6 Always must man’s inner spirit depend for its expression and self-realization upon the mechanism and technique of the mind. Likewise must man’s outer experience of material reality be predicated on the mind consciousness of the experiencing personality. Therefore are the spiritual and the material, the inner and the outer, human experiences always correlated with the mind function and conditioned, as to their conscious realization, by the mind activity.
Man experiences matter in his mind; he experiences spiritual reality in the soul but becomes conscious of this experience in his mind.
The intellect is the harmonizer and the ever-present conditioner and qualifier of the sum total of mortal experience. Both energy-things and spirit values are colored by their interpretation through the mind media of consciousness.

 

Just like the subconscious, the superconscious "impinges" upon the conscious, and depending upon the desires of the personality and its willingness to "engage", either subconscious or superconscious thoughts can enter into consciousness. However, the soul is a separate reality derived from both the mind and the Adjuster. It is not the superconscious, it is derived from both the superconscious and conscious mind, activated by personality; but it is a separate reality. Personality is a very important part of this discussion of the morontia mind which has not been addressed as of yet. Personality is in and of itself, self-conscious and capable of functioning on all levels. By its nature, it serves to unify all levels as well. Personality is the true bridge between the physical and the morontial, but in order to do so it must transfer its seat of identity from the material mind to the morontia mind (soul). I'll try to explain.

 

As the personality is working through the psychic/cosmic circles of attunement with the Adjuster and busily growing a morontia soul, the mind has only partial awareness of the soul, presumably because of personality. However, the soul itself, which is a separate reality, does not have full consciousness of the human mind or of the Adjuster until it evolves to a certain "phase" of consciousness, called soul-consciousness. At this level, the soul becomes aware of the human mind and the Adjuster (pre-personality).

 

111:3.4 Both the human mind and the divine Adjuster are conscious of the presence and differential nature of the evolving soul — the Adjuster fully, the
mind partially
.
The soul becomes increasingly conscious of both the mind and the Adjuster as associated identities, proportional to its own evolutionary growth
.

 

Once a personality reaches the level of soul consciousness a new level of mind is achieved which is capable of pre-morontia functioning, a superadjutant form of mind . . . (which I'm wondering is it similar to the "transition" morontia mind of the secondary Midwayers? Not sure.) This mind level of functioning is referred to as soul consciousness and it is a level at which supermaterial activities become conscious. Morontia is supermaterial. This is a level of self-realization which is another way to say personality realization due to Adjuster attunement. Personality is pivotal in unifying and actualizing this phenomenon. I can't stress this enough. Most of what happens on the level of morontia mind is unconscious until the personality has chosen to identify with the soul and the decision has become final. At this time the personality has access to the morontia mind, the Adjuster and to other morontia activities as well as the Supreme Being; and this happens even though the personality is not inhabiting a morontia body.

 

5:2.5 As the soul of joint mind and Adjuster creation becomes increasingly existent, there also evolves a
new phase
of soul consciousness which is capable of experiencing the presence, and of recognizing the spirit leadings and other
supermaterial activities
, of the Mystery Monitors.

 

110:6.16 Perhaps these psychic circles of mortal progression would be better denominated cosmic levels — actual meaning grasps and value realizations of
progressive approach to the morontia consciousness
of initial relationship of the evolutionary soul with the emerging Supreme Being. And it is this very relationship that makes it forever impossible fully to explain the significance of the cosmic circles to the material mind.

 

110:6.21 The seven circles embrace mortal experience extending from the highest purely animal level to the lowest actual
contactual morontia level of self-consciousness as a personality experience
. The mastery of the first cosmic circle signalizes the attainment of premorontia mortal maturity and marks the termination of the conjoint ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits as an exclusive influence of mind action in the human personality. Beyond the first circle,
mind becomes increasingly akin to the intelligence of the morontia stage of evolution
, the conjoined ministry of the cosmic mind and the
superadjutant
endowment of the Creative Spirit of a local universe.

 

112:6.9 The soul of survival value faithfully reflects both the qualitative and the quantitative actions and motivations of the material intellect, the former seat of the identity of selfhood. In the choosing of truth, beauty, and goodness, the mortal mind enters upon its premorontia universe career under the tutelage of the seven adjutant mind-spirits unified under the direction of the spirit of wisdom.
Subsequently, upon the completion of the seven circles of premorontia attainment, the superimposition of the endowment of morontia mind upon adjutant mind initiates the prespiritual or morontia career of local universe progression.

 

So, speaking only of morontia mind (not substance), there is impingement in that it appears much like a ladder or stairway upward in mind function. One leads to the other with a "superimposition" which has control over all that functions below it. My guess is that Paul and John were first circlers, although it is not impossible to believe that they had supreme or self-acting Adjusters who were capable of transferring thoughts to the conscious mind. Regardless, once the information was filtered by the material mind, it became interpreted by that same mind according to its level of function. Hence, the spectacular descriptions, the use of outdated metaphor and the appearance, to the unenlightened, of fanaticism/insanity on some level.

 

When it comes to morontia substance, I have mixed thoughts. During the final stages of light and life, corporeal beings are supposed to be able to interact in some way with the morontia temple (if I read that passage correctly). Does that mean that humans change physically in order to perceive it, or does it mean that they sense these things spiritually with their highly evolved souls, I don't know? The authors may have used the word "seat" metaphorically. On the other hand, TUB says that the Planetary Prince will remain invisible unless he is in the morontia temple where he will become visible. This tells me that certain transformations must take place within the temple which somehow bridge the gap between the physical and the morontial, in which case the temple itself might be invisible also until it is actually entered by corporeal beings. The building itself may be a transformer of some kind. Just speculating.

 

 

 

Bonita, gave a lecture that might be understood by some, but very difficult for almost anybody to understand. Morontia energy is not yet spirit energy, which also has certain properties according to the UBook, that are investigated by beings of the spirit level of existence.

 

Both our minds and our eyes can perceive things that have an independent existent. Such things can be experienced and described by other human beings in a congruent manner.

 

Both our minds and our eyes can perceive things that only exist in our private consciousness, things without existence perceivable by others. Things without existence outside our minds are dream visions, for instance, or memory patterns. Possibly also other visions of a reality can appear in your mind. But it is extremely difficult to determine if a vision in your mind has an independent real existence, if nobody else can perceive it.

 

Morontia beings are definitely said to exit independently of our minds, even to have bodies composed of modified atoms. Even as modified, such atoms have interactions and the bodies are energized.

 

 

UB (862.7) 77:6.3 These sixteen children (of Adamson) lived and died (except for their peculiarities) as mortals of the realm, but their electrically energized offspring live on and on, not being subject to the limitations of mortal flesh.

 

So, secondary midwayers are electrically energized!

 

Therefore their body atoms also necessarily have detectable electromagnetic reactions, in some frequency range.

 

Therefore I predicted that we might some day be able to visualize them with certain frequency converters and a TV like screen ( there is absolutely no need to build such apparatus into our eyes, this was Bonita’s misunderstanding of what I proposed).

 

Hence we could prove the real existence of the midwayers, an independent existence outside of our minds.

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I'm not sure how you're making the distinction between morontia mind and morontia substance. I would've thought that morontia mind is realized in morontia substance, just as material mind is (partly) realized in material substance.

 

Todd, I realize you have difficulty (at least I believe you've said so) with the concept of the soul. If you can accept that the soul is morontia mind, then you also have to accept that most of us have morontia minds; but, none of us have morontia bodies. It's not necessary to have both. Furthermore, mind is not substance, nor does it need substance for realization. Realization requires personality.

 

Our human minds are not made up of substance, that is, if you define substance (at least for this discussion) as some form of matter, be it physical or morontial. If our human minds do not have substance, then our morontia minds do not have substance either. Mind is not matter. Matter and substance are energy forms. Mind is living ministry added to energy. TUB attempts to define mind but can only do so in relation to the Third Source and Center as a living entity which is nonmaterial in origin. (Hence the use of the term "mind spirits".)

 

0:6.8
Mind
is a phenomenon connoting the presence-activity of
living ministry
in addition to varied energy systems; and this is true on all levels of intelligence. In personality, mind ever intervenes between spirit and matter; therefore is the universe illuminated by three kinds of light: material light, intellectual insight, and spirit luminosity.

 

195:7.6 If this were only a material universe, material man would never be able to arrive at the concept of the mechanistic character of such an exclusively material existence. This
very mechanistic concept
of the universe is in itself a nonmaterial phenomenon of mind, and
all mind is of nonmaterial origin
, no matter how thoroughly it may appear to be materially conditioned and mechanistically controlled.

 

[[[ I think that one of the biggest problems of modernity is that people believe that their minds are their own property, part of their physical brain, and that they create it themselves using that brain. Few realize that mind is shared with everyone. Nothing that goes on in your mind is secret and all your thoughts affect all other thoughts, and in that way, mind is a living form of spiritual substance that matters (no pun intended) . . . thoughts are real . . . but I'm digressing. ]]]

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Bonita:

…but I'm digressing. ]]]

 

Yes, you are, as the theme of this thread was the following:

 

…however I am wondering if anyone has information regarding the particle physics of morontia substance. Or maybe some good speculative guesse's of this substance and it's physics.

 

This post has been edited by boomshuka: May 21 2011, 09:49 PM

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Yes, you are, as the theme of this thread was the following: . . .

 

And, in case you didn't notice, I got permission from the author of this thread to digress. What was the purpose of this comment? It sounds unnecessarily hostile. Plus, you appear to be overlooking the fact that boomshuka also asked questions concerning Paul's morontia experiences, which I am attempting to answer.

 

Bonita, gave a lecture that might be understood by some, but very difficult for almost anybody to understand.

 

Were you speaking for yourself here or for everyone? If you didn't understand it, it's probably because it's not your area of expertise (science). Don't you think that people of varied backgrounds and proficiencies should be contributing to these discussions for the sake of balance and completeness? And I'm sorry you think I'm too pedagogic. I do carry a title of Asst. Professor. Maybe that's where it comes from; it's hard to shake life long habits. But this is three times in this thread that you've made personally disparaging remarks to me. First, you challenge my ability to understand the physiology of human vision and then tell me how much I can learn by reading your link, suggesting that I really don't know enough about human vision despite having advanced degrees specializing in neurophysiology; then you complain that no one can understand me and refer to my post as a lecture; and now you publicly complain about digressing off the subject that you want to talk about as though I'm behaving like a bad-mannered child. I'm very disappointed by this and hope the administration is aware of this deceptive and subtle form of ad hominem polemic.

 

Your science is engaged in the agelong contest between truth and error while it fights for deliverance from the bondage of abstraction, the slavery of mathematics, and the relative blindness of mechanistic materialism. (12:9.5)

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Guest rich

i know we can only see a small band of light relative to all that can be seen. i know that all substances other than physical like morontia, or what makes up havona spheres and beings etc., is greater than our atoms and ultimatons and such. the morontia is a greater more vibrant reality, when i hear semi-material as a description of it, that means that material is less than morontial, not the opposite. 1:6.1 Human personality is the time-space image-shadow cast by the divine Creator personality. And no actuality can ever be adequately comprehended by an examination of its shadow. shadows should be interpreted in terms of the true substance.

 

the true substance being whatever god's form is, then everything else is on a scale downward to the least of which is our material existence, in terms of the physical. 48:2.1 These unique beings are exclusively concerned with the supervision of those activities which represent a working combination of spiritual and physical or semimaterial energies. They are exclusively devoted to the ministry of morontia progression. Not that they so much minister to mortals during the transition experience, but they rather make possible the transition environment for the progressing morontia creatures. They are the channels of morontia power which sustain and energize the morontia phases of the transition worlds.

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And, in case you didn't notice, I got permission from the author of this thread to digress. What was the purpose of this comment? It sounds unnecessarily hostile. Plus, you appear to be overlooking the fact that boomshuka also asked questions concerning Paul's morontia experiences, which I am attempting to answer.

 

 

 

Were you speaking for yourself here or for everyone? If you didn't understand it, it's probably because it's not your area of expertise (science). Don't you think that people of varied backgrounds and proficiencies should be contributing to these discussions for the sake of balance and completeness? And I'm sorry you think I'm too pedagogic. I do carry a title of Asst. Professor. Maybe that's where it comes from; it's hard to shake life long habits. But this is three times in this thread that you've made personally disparaging remarks to me. First, you challenge my ability to understand the physiology of human vision and then tell me how much I can learn by reading your link, suggesting that I really don't know enough about human vision despite having advanced degrees specializing in neurophysiology; then you complain that no one can understand me and refer to my post as a lecture; and now you publicly complain about digressing off the subject that you want to talk about as though I'm behaving like a bad-mannered child. I'm very disappointed by this and hope the administration is aware of this deceptive and subtle form of ad hominem polemic.

 

Your science is engaged in the agelong contest between truth and error while it fights for deliverance from the bondage of abstraction, the slavery of mathematics, and the relative blindness of mechanistic materialism. (12:9.5)

 

Bonita:

Your science is engaged in the agelong contest between truth and error while it fights for deliverance from the bondage of abstraction, the slavery of mathematics, and Your science is engaged in the agelong contest between truth and error while it fights for deliverance from the bondage of abstraction, the slavery of mathematics, and the relative blindness of mechanistic materialism. (12:9.5)

 

I had expected earlier, that you are mixing “mechanistic materialism” , a political and sociological expression, with physics?

 

Nigel Nunn wrote: Seriously, and as a physicist, I regard the

phenomenon of material matter to be more miraculous by far than fandors.

 

Physics is the study of the universal dimensions, fields, particles and processes of the human level of existence. Physics is penetrating the “divine technique” of the primary creators! Modern physics is in no way “materialism”!

 

I have been especially interested in human vision, as one of my earliest contacts with science was one prominent Swedish scientist, Ragnar Granit, who received the Nobel Prize for investigations concerning colour vision and the physiology of the human eye:

 

http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/medicine/laureates/1967/

 

Therefore, I would be interested in reading some of your material about your ” advanced degrees specializing in neurophysiology”!

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While reflecting on matter, morontia, mota and mind, I got to wondering:

 

Our material form allows us to access a "system of mind". Likewise, our

morontial forms will allow us to access an appropriate "system of mind".

 

But the authors reveal the system of "adjutant mind" to be derived from

"a level of consciousness of the Divine Minister" [(402.1) 36:5.4].

 

So, from where comes the system of mind our morontia forms engage?

 

PS: HSTa's speculations about supersymmetric particles, and Cal's

consideration of morontia hydration, make this thread not only a

real challenge to keep up, but a wonderful delight -- thanks all!

 

Nigel

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