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I have been reading the U.B for almost 10 year's so I am pretty familiar with all the concept's, however I am wondering if anyone has information regarding the particle physics of morontia substance. Or maybe some good speculative guesse's of this substance and it's physics.

Edited by boomshuka

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P.494 - §1 The time spent on the seventy training worlds of transition morontia culture associated with the Edentia age of mortal ascension, is the most settled period in an ascending mortal's career up to the status of a finaliter; this is really the typical morontia life. While you are re-keyed each time you pass from one major cultural world to another, you retain the same morontia body, and there are no periods of personality unconsciousness.

P.544 - §4 6. Selective Assorters. As you progress from one class or phase of a morontia world to another, you must be re-keyed or advance-tuned, and it is the task of the selective assorters to keep you in progressive synchrony with the morontia life.

 

Boomshuka,

 

my take is that you have a body made especially for you that you are reinvested into in the resurrection hall when the Guardian of Destiny and Thought Adjuster reunite after the Archangel weighs your soul in the balance. This morotia form is individually charateristic and reflects the beauty (or lack therof) within your soul trust.

 

P.483 - §11 The liaison of the cosmic mind and the ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits evolve a suitable physical tabernacle for the evolving human being. Likewise does the morontia mind individualize the morontia form for all mortal survivors. As the mortal body is personal and characteristic for every human being, so will the morontia form be highly individual and adequately characteristic of the creative mind which dominates it. No two morontia forms are any more alike than any two human bodies. The Morontia Power Supervisors sponsor, and the attending seraphim provide, the undifferentiated morontia material wherewith the morontia life can begin to work. And after the morontia life it will be found that spirit forms are equally diverse, personal, and characteristic of their respective spirit-mind indwellers

 

My guess is the transition from one level to each succeeding level is accomplished through increasing the ultimatonic axial revolutionary rate (page 476) to achieve a higher "vibration," if you will pardon the term. After 491 of these episodes of being "re-keyed," you are effectively a first stage spirit and ready for your adventure out into the greater Master Universe Minor Sector, Ensa

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P.494 - §1 The time spent on the seventy training worlds of transition morontia culture associated with the Edentia age of mortal ascension, is the most settled period in an ascending mortal's career up to the status of a finaliter; this is really the typical morontia life. While you are re-keyed each time you pass from one major cultural world to another, you retain the same morontia body, and there are no periods of personality unconsciousness.

P.544 - §4 6. Selective Assorters. As you progress from one class or phase of a morontia world to another, you must be re-keyed or advance-tuned, and it is the task of the selective assorters to keep you in progressive synchrony with the morontia life.

 

Boomshuka,

 

my take is that you have a body made especially for you that you are reinvested into in the resurrection hall when the Guardian of Destiny and Thought Adjuster reunite after the Archangel weighs your soul in the balance. This morotia form is individually charateristic and reflects the beauty (or lack therof) within your soul trust.

 

P.483 - §11 The liaison of the cosmic mind and the ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits evolve a suitable physical tabernacle for the evolving human being. Likewise does the morontia mind individualize the morontia form for all mortal survivors. As the mortal body is personal and characteristic for every human being, so will the morontia form be highly individual and adequately characteristic of the creative mind which dominates it. No two morontia forms are any more alike than any two human bodies. The Morontia Power Supervisors sponsor, and the attending seraphim provide, the undifferentiated morontia material wherewith the morontia life can begin to work. And after the morontia life it will be found that spirit forms are equally diverse, personal, and characteristic of their respective spirit-mind indwellers

 

My guess is the transition from one level to each succeeding level is accomplished through increasing the ultimatonic axial revolutionary rate (page 476) to achieve a higher "vibration," if you will pardon the term. After 491 of these episodes of being "re-keyed," you are effectively a first stage spirit and ready for your adventure out into the greater Master Universe Minor Sector, Ensa

 

 

 

UB (541.6) 48:1.3 All of these worlds are architectural spheres, and they have just double the number of elements of the evolved planets. Such made-to-order worlds not only abound in the heavy metals and crystals, having one hundred physical elements, but likewise have exactly one hundred forms of a unique energy organization called morontia material. The Master Physical Controllers and the Morontia Power Supervisors are able so to modify the revolutions of the primary units of matter and at the same time so to transform these associations of energy as to create this new substance.

 

UB (468.1) 42:1.4 Subsequent to even still greater progress and further discoveries, after Urantia has advanced immeasurably in comparison with present knowledge, though you should gain control of the energy revolutions of the electrical units of matter to the extent of modifying their physical manifestations — even after all such possible progress, forever will scientists be powerless to create one atom of matter or to originate one flash of energy or ever to add to matter that which we call life.

 

What the UBook describes above is somewhat related to our concept of “supersymmetry”, a very important concept in particle physics today! Supersymmetric particles are even expected to appear in the particle accelerators :

 

Supersymmetry:

In particle physics, supersymmetry (often abbreviated SUSY) is a symmetry that relates elementary particles of one spin to other particles that differ by half a unit of spin and are known as superpartners. In a theory with unbroken supersymmetry, for every type of boson there exists a corresponding type of fermion with the same mass and internal quantum numbers, and vice-versa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersymmetry

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Thanks guy's that's great info, it sound's like you guy's got good quote's that relate to this subject. I guess in term's of our world I think of our current physical substance as a shadowy form of real morontia material. I could only imagine what it would be like to pear into this morontia substance as paul of tarsus envisioned this more enduring substance. I wonder how many human being's have had the privilage of having this substance revealed to them.

Edited by boomshuka

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"I wonder how many human being's have had the privilage of having this substance revealed to them."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Boomshuka,

 

Though the eyes of faith I have certainly seen heavenly wonders unfold, in my mind's eye, and my sincere prayer is that I be allowed to serve out my life on this sphere as an agondonter.

 

My career, as an unpaid staffer at Urantia Foundation began forty years ago, working for Emma Christensen. Later, after her death, I learned more about some of the happenings that occurred there, with Midwayers and other celestial beings, and wondered, as I hauled cases of books, patched the roof or fixed the sump pump, etc., how cool it would be to have a short little (remember Ratta bore them fully formed) Secondary Midwayer pop up and share something wonderful with me. Such are the daydreams of a basement worker in such a historical place as 533. Over time, and many more readings of the book and many, many more study groups, discussion, reflection and ultimate evolution of a beginning of wisdom (the knowledge of my abject ignorance), it became increasingly clear that unearned knowledge is invariable deleterious to growth.

 

That God so loves us that He chooses to remain hidden to preserve the precious gift of Faith that really is the ONLY thing we have to offer Him.

 

This line of reasoning is my justification, as I travel throughout Guatemala with my ("johnny appleseed") pack of EL LIBROS, for insisting on some form of payment, commensurate with a person's level of poverty (or affluence) , in payment for a Book. I have noticed that when a person pays, they generally read.

 

 

Therefor, I question your curious desire to witness what Paul saw and offer the following quote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

P.1109 - §2 . While divine or spiritual insight is a gift, human wisdom must evolve.

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Yea, hahaha I wouldn't recommend anyone to sit around wishing all day to see midwayer's and the mansion world threw some vision, it definitely seem's like doing that would just be endless daydreaming and strange fantasy's :) hahaha.

 

I know for me I do alot of physical labour as well and I will daydream about all sort's of thing's too, I think the one that I enjoy the most is the potential for experiencing sonship of the father in heaven. Now there is a vision worth daydreaming about hahaha. :D

Edited by boomshuka

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You are enabled to alter the consistency/substance of your own reality by spiritual evolution. As your soul is a bonifide morontia reality selflessness (loving others as does Our Heavenly Father) will "refresh your soul with the waters of life." Those who pursue spiritual wealth by keeping their "inner eye" singly focused upon the attributes of God: Truth, Beauty and Goodness, can not but help to become more like God, less material and more spiritual.

A Mighty Messenger tells us (317) " The more steadfastly you behold, and the more persistently you pursue, the concepts of divine goodness, the more certainly will you grow in greatness, in true magnitude of genuine survival character." and that "the quality of unselfishness revealed in disinterested labor for the welfare of one's earthly fellows, particularly worthy beings in need and in distress, that is the real measure of planetary greatness."

 

 

In this universe age of the evolutionary growth of the finite God, we will "progress from animal to angel and from angel to spirit and from spirit to God."(558) Of course that will require a journey through all of time to the Center and Source of space before you land on the shores of eternity.

 

 

On a related thought, I think it is great that you seem to be bubbling over with good humor! Didn't Jesus say at the start of each beatitude in the Sermon on the Mount, "HAPPY ARE..."? and whenever he entered a room or place exhorted the people to "Be of good cheer"?

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Over time, and many more readings of the book and many, many more study groups, discussion, reflection and ultimate evolution of a beginning of wisdom (the knowledge of my abject ignorance), it became increasingly clear that unearned knowledge is invariable deleterious to growth.

 

That God so loves us that He chooses to remain hidden to preserve the precious gift of Faith that really is the ONLY thing we have to offer Him.

 

Morontia is revealed to us, in the UB itself. If this is unearned knowledge then the UB is replete with it. I suppose boomshuka was wondering how many have had morontia revealed to them in some sort of sensory way.

 

The mode of revelation in the UB is verbal and conceptual, not sensory. Morontia is invisible to the mortal senses. Possibly the midwayers could make it visible, by some means. If they did, its reality would still be deniable by mortals. Seeing is not, in fact, believing. Anything seen, like anything read, must still be interpreted, and interpretation always leaves an opening for denial.

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Almost everyone has a soul. The soul is morontial. Those who are conscious of their souls have experience with the morontia level of existence. Morontia cannot be explained with human language, it is experiential. It can be described, but each person will describe it according to their experience. This means that one person's description of morontia is meaningless to others unless they have had similar experiences. Particle physics doesn't really matter much when it concerns the soul, unless you're only happy thinking in concrete terms, which will, unfortunately, never give you a morontial experience.

 

48:6.2 You should understand that the morontia life of an ascending mortal is really initiated on the inhabited worlds at the conception of the soul, at that moment when the creature mind of moral status is indwelt by the spirit Adjuster. And from that moment on, the mortal soul has potential capacity for supermortal function, even for recognition on the higher levels of the morontia spheres of the local universe.

 

Revelation, be it personal or epochal, is the substitute for morontia in the material and finite world. (Which is why we all love TUB so much.)

 

101:2.10 Faith reveals God in the soul. Revelation, the substitute for morontia insight on an evolutionary world, enables man to see the same God in nature that faith exhibits in his soul. Thus does revelation successfully bridge the gulf between the material and the spiritual, even between the creature and the Creator, between man and God.

 

We also know that personal revelation of truth is synonymous with the soul; and, personal revelation of truth is determined by faith and obtained through prayer. Prayer is the means by which we perceive morontia. So, why don't we love prayer and our souls as much as we love TUB? I only got two replies in my thread on prayer, which tells me that no one is interested, yet everyone seems to be interested in particle physics. 'Tis very sad to me . . . the Misery of Modernity.

 

Personal revelation occurs in the psyche, and we know that the modern psyche is a troubled one, particularly if it's married to materiality.

 

110:6.9 2.
Soul evolution.
The emergence of the morontia soul indicates the extent and depth of circle mastery.

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Almost everyone has a soul. The soul is morontial. Those who are conscious of their souls have experience with the morontia level of existence. Morontia cannot be explained with human language, it is experiential. It can be described, but each person will describe it according to their experience.

 

So morontia is ontologically subjective? That in itself is worth knowing.

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Guest rich

a search on morontia and substance gives me these quotes to read and comment on, my first thought about boom's statement is there is nothing we can even guess about what the substance of morontia actually is.

 

16:4.5 Unquestionably, when we encounter the functional activities of the various morontia Power Supervisors, we are face to face with certain of the unrevealed activities of the Master Spirits. Who, aside from these ancestors of both physical controllers and spirit ministers, could have contrived so to combine and associate material and spiritual energies as to produce a hitherto nonexistent phase of universe reality — morontia substance and morontia mind?

 

there is then a particle physics to the morontia, but there's no way mortals could guess that, unless a human scientist maybe could. my ideas about it are just hunches and a novice viewpoint.

 

 

48:1.3 All of these worlds are architectural spheres, and they have just double the number of elements of the evolved planets. Such made-to-order worlds not only abound in the heavy metals and crystals, having one hundred physical elements, but likewise have exactly one hundred forms of a unique energy organization called morontia material. The Master Physical Controllers and the morontia Power Supervisors are able so to modify the revolutions of the primary units of matter and at the same time so to transform these associations of energy as to create this new substance.

 

this might be the sentence with the greatest clue about the question.

 

48:1.7 Paul learned of the existence of the morontia worlds and of the reality of morontia materials, for he wrote, “They have in heaven a better and more enduring substance.” And these morontia materials are real, literal, even as in “the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.” And each of these marvelous spheres is “a better country, that is, a heavenly one.”

 

morontia is a more enduring substance then than our aging, dying bodies.

 

103:6.7 Your difficulty in arriving at a more harmonious co-ordination between science and religion is due to your utter ignorance of the intervening domain of the morontia world of things and beings. The local universe consists of three degrees, or stages, of reality manifestation: matter, morontia, and spirit. The morontia angle of approach erases all divergence between the findings of the physical sciences and the functioning of the spirit of religion. Reason is the understanding technique of the sciences; faith is the insight technique of religion; mota is the technique of the morontia level. Mota is a supermaterial reality sensitivity which is beginning to compensate incomplete growth, having for its substance knowledge-reason and for its essence faith-insight. Mota is a superphilosophical reconciliation of divergent reality perception which is nonattainable by material personalities; it is predicated, in part, on the experience of having survived the material life of the flesh. But many mortals have recognized the desirability of having some method of reconciling the interplay between the widely separated domains of science and religion; and metaphysics is the result of man’s unavailing attempt to span this well-recognized chasm. But human metaphysics has proved more confusing than illuminating. Metaphysics stands for man’s well-meant but futile effort to compensate for the absence of the mota of morontia.

 

man being the imperfect creature he is has many well-meant but futile efforts.

 

110:2.6 To the extent that this identity is realized, you are mentally approaching the morontia order of existence. morontia mind is a term signifying the substance and sum total of the co-operating minds of diversely material and spiritual natures. morontia intellect, therefore, connotes a dual mind in the local universe dominated by one will. And with mortals this is a will, human in origin, which is becoming divine through man’s identification of the human mind with the mindedness of God.

 

to keep trying then is what it is about i guess.

 

I have been reading the U.B for almost 10 year's so I am pretty familiar with all the concept's, however I am wondering if anyone has information regarding the particle physics of morontia substance. Or maybe some good speculative guesse's of this substance and it's physics.

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So morontia is ontologically subjective? That in itself is worth knowing.

 

That's why they call it the morontia experience. There is greater dimension in the morontia, but it is an experiential dimension. Even Michael had to experience it.

 

110:6.20 From the seventh to the third circle there occurs increased and unified action of the seven adjutant mind-spirits in the task of weaning the mortal mind from its dependence on the realities of the material life mechanisms preparatory to increased introduction to
morontia levels of experience
. From the third circle onward the adjutant influence progressively diminishes.

 

110:6.21 The seven circles embrace mortal experience extending from the highest purely animal level to the lowest
actual contactual morontia level of self-consciousness as a personality experience
. The mastery of the first cosmic circle signalizes the attainment of premorontia mortal maturity and marks the termination of the conjoint ministry of the adjutant mind-spirits as an exclusive influence of mind action in the human personality.
Beyond the first circle, mind becomes increasingly akin to the intelligence of the morontia stage of evolution
, the conjoined ministry of the cosmic mind and the superadjutant endowment of the Creative Spirit of a local universe.

 

111:1.2 But such a spirit dominance of the material mind is conditioned upon
two experiences
: This mind must have evolved up through the ministry of the seven adjutant mind-spirits, and the material (personal) self must choose to co-operate with the indwelling Adjuster in creating and fostering the morontia self, the evolutionary and potentially immortal soul.

 

112:1.11 On the morontia level all of these finite dimensions of the material level are greatly enhanced, and certain new dimensional values are realizable. All these
enlarged dimensional experiences
of the morontia level are marvelously articulated with the supreme or personality dimension through the influence of mota and also because of the contribution of morontia mathematics.

 

189:0.2 Your Creator-father has elected to pass through the
whole of the experience
of his mortal creatures, from birth on the material worlds, on through natural death and the
resurrection of the morontia
, into the status of true spirit existence. A certain phase of this experience you are about to observe, but you may not participate in it.

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That's why they call it the morontia experience. There is greater dimension in the morontia, but it is an experiential dimension. Even Michael had to experience it.

 

And yet, it is also referred to as a substance.

 

(189.6) 16:4.5 Unquestionably, when we encounter the functional activities of the various Morontia Power Supervisors, we are face to face with certain of the unrevealed activities of the Master Spirits. Who, aside from these ancestors of both physical controllers and spirit ministers, could have contrived so to combine and associate material and spiritual energies as to produce a hitherto nonexistent phase of universe reality — morontia substance and morontia mind?

 

It's a substance, but not a material substance--at least not as we understand "matter". Yet we are somehow able to be embodied in this substance, since the term morontia body is also used in the UB. And we are told that the morontia body is fueled by a kind of living energy currently unknown to us.

 

The term "substance" has a very long history. Although it is loosely used in contemporary speech to refer to any more or less homogeneous sample of matter, it's clear that the UB is using the word in its more traditional technical sense. Substances are things that exist on their own, as opposed to being mere emanations or aspects of something else. Shadows, for example, are not substances, although they are caused by substances. The other thing about substances is that they have causal powers to interact with other substances. Physical (material) substances interact causally with other physical substances.

 

Does morontia substance interact with physical substance? It seems that it must. If it didn't, it would have no power at all to influence material mind, and nothing in the material universe could have any influence on it. Also, the midwayers are referred to as morontia citizens, and we know that the secondary midwayers, at least, can interact with physical substance.

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And yet, it is also referred to as a substance.

 

...

Does morontia substance interact with physical substance? It seems that it must. If it didn't, it would have no power at all to influence material mind, and nothing in the material universe could have any influence on it. Also, the midwayers are referred to as morontia citizens, and we know that the secondary midwayers, at least, can interact with physical substance.

 

If we only pay attention to what the morontia substance is made from, we learn that it is made from the same physical particles which exit in the entire universe that we live in, but every particle revolution is modified to a state that isn’t occurring in nature.

 

Even our physicists are expected to learn (in the future) how to ”modify the revolutions of the primary units of matter and at the same time so to transform these associations of energy as to create this new substance. “

 

Our concept of “spin” is in some way directly connected to “the revolutions of the primary units of matter”. A chance in spin will change all basic interactions of the concerned particle.

 

We are also told that there exists 100 “chemical” elements of the morontia substance, in the same manner that we have 100 stable elements in our periodic table.

 

Every 1. Hydrogen, 2. Helium, 3. Lithium, 4. Beryllium,... atom has a morontia counterpart, that is mad up of spin-modified particles. Also the physical interactions of the morontia atoms are entirely changed, and different from what we know about.

 

And all this is related to the supersymmetry theories of our physicists today, as I mentioned.

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If we only pay attention to what the morontia substance is made from, we learn that it is made from the same physical particles which exit in the entire universe that we live in, but every particle revolution is modified to a state that isn’t occurring in nature.

 

Even our physicists are expected to learn (in the future) how to ”modify the revolutions of the primary units of matter and at the same time so to transform these associations of energy as to create this new substance. “

 

These considerations entail that morontia is a kind of material substance, but modified in certain ways. Modified matter is still matter. In this case, descriptions such as the following aren't strictly true:

 

(1230.3) 112:3.5 After death the material body returns to the elemental world from which it was derived, but two nonmaterial factors of surviving personality persist: The pre-existent Thought Adjuster, with the memory transcription of the mortal career, proceeds to Divinington; and there also remains, in the custody of the destiny guardian, the immortal morontia soul of the deceased human.

 

The morontia soul can't truly be nonmaterial if it's made of modified matter.

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These considerations entail that morontia is a kind of material substance, but modified in certain ways. Modified matter is still matter. In this case, descriptions such as the following aren't strictly true:

 

(1230.3) 112:3.5 After death the material body returns to the elemental world from which it was derived, but two nonmaterial factors of surviving personality persist: The pre-existent Thought Adjuster, with the memory transcription of the mortal career, proceeds to Divinington; and there also remains, in the custody of the destiny guardian, the immortal morontia soul of the deceased human.

 

The morontia soul can't truly be nonmaterial if it's made of modified matter.

 

The morontia soul is a nonmaterial factor of surviving personality.

 

The soul is different from the substance of the morontia body!

Edited by HSTa

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Thanks guy's that's great info, it sound's like you guy's got good quote's that relate to this subject. I guess in term's of our world I think of our current physical substance as a shadowy form of real morontia material. I could only imagine what it would be like to pear into this morontia substance as paul of tarsus envisioned this more enduring substance. I wonder how many human being's have had the privilage of having this substance revealed to them.

The soul is morontia mind. The morontia body may be made of morontia substance; but either way, we cannot perceive it on the finite level.

 

16:4.5 Unquestionably, when we encounter the functional activities of the various Morontia Power Supervisors, we are face to face with certain of the unrevealed activities of the Master Spirits. Who, aside from these ancestors of both physical controllers and spirit ministers, could have contrived so to combine and associate material and spiritual energies as to produce a hitherto nonexistent phase of universe reality —
morontia substance and morontia mind
?

 

But that is not what I was responding to. I was responding, very specifically, to what boomshucka wrote:

 

"I could only imagine what it would be like to pear into this morontia substance as paul of tarsus envisioned this more enduring substance. I wonder how many human being's have had the privilage of having this substance revealed to them."

 

What Paul was able to perceive as morontia was via the soul, the morontia mind. It was experiential, hence his poor ability to adequately describe it. It really does not matter what we know or learn about particle physics and its relation to morontia substance since we cannot make the substance or actually perceive it with finite senses or tools. Matter is merely the skeleton of the morontial. (189:1.3)

 

I doubt the Midwayers are responsible for this phenomenon. When Jesus' morontia body was visualized, it was accomplished by morontia transforming associates. Therefore, there doesn't seem to be a way to study the substance without them, and that isn't going to happen any time soon.

 

191:3.2 As the Master progressed in the morontia career, it became, technically, more and more difficult for the morontia intelligences and their transforming associates to visualize the Master to mortal and material eyes.

 

The point I am trying to make, and obviously not very well, is that the only way to experience the morontia, here and now, is through morontia soul consciousness and spirit insight, and it will remain that way until we die and are resurrected on the morontia worlds. There's one caveat however. I believe that when the planet is settled in light and life and the morontia temple is built, that we may actually be able to see it. TUB doesn't specifically say that, but it does say that it will seat 300 thousand people. If you're going to sit, you should probably be able to see and feel what you're sitting on, no? Regardless, we are a very long way off.

 

55:1.4 The average morontia temple seats about three hundred thousand spectators. These edifices are not used for worship, play, or for receiving broadcasts; they are devoted to the special ceremonies of the planet, such as: communications with the System Sovereign or with the Most Highs, special visualization ceremonies designed to reveal the personality presence of spirit beings, and silent cosmic contemplation. The schools of cosmic philosophy here conduct their graduation exercises, and here also do the mortals of the realm receive planetary recognition for achievements of high social service and for other outstanding attainments.

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The soul is morontia mind. The morontia body may be made of morontia substance; but either way, we cannot perceive it on the finite level.

 

I'm not so sure of this. I can't find anything in the UB to indicate that morontia substance exists beyond the finite level.

 

(2.11) 0:1.11 The finite level of reality is characterized by creature life and time-space limitations. Finite realities may not have endings, but they always have beginnings — they are created. The Deity level of Supremacy may be conceived as a function in relation to finite existences.

 

As I understand it, the morontia soul and body have beginnings, so they too exist on the finite level, which is time-bound.

 

(9.2) 0:5.12 Morontia is a term designating a vast level intervening between the material and the spiritual. It may designate personal or impersonal realities, living or nonliving energies. The warp of morontia is spiritual; its woof is physical.

 

This passage isn't terribly informative, but it doesn't suggest that morontia exists only on an absonite or infinite level.

 

What Paul was able to perceive as morontia was via the soul, the morontia mind. It was experiential, hence his poor ability to adequately describe it. It really does not matter what we know or learn about particle physics and its relation to morontia substance since we cannot make the substance or actually perceive it with finite senses or tools. Matter is merely the skeleton of the morontial. (189:1.3)

 

Understanding isn't limited to what can be perceived with senses or tools. The number of prime numbers is infinite. What sense or tool told Euclid that?

 

All of our interactions with the physical world are experiential. Try describing the taste of dill to someone who has never tasted it. The fact that we cannot directly perceive, or make, morontia substance doesn't prevent us from trying to make sense of it. I think my questions about the causal powers of morontia have answers, even if the answers are not provided in the UB.

 

The point I am trying to make, and obviously not very well, is that the only way to experience the morontia, here and now, is through morontia soul consciousness and spirit insight, and it will remain that way until we die and are resurrected on the morontia worlds.

 

We cannot experience ultraviolet radiation either, in any direct sensory way, but there are techniques for making it visible to us. Possibly similar techniques are available to make morontia visible to mortal senses.

 

55:1.4 The average morontia temple seats about three hundred thousand spectators. These edifices are not used for worship, play, or for receiving broadcasts; they are devoted to the special ceremonies of the planet, such as: communications with the System Sovereign or with the Most Highs, special visualization ceremonies designed to reveal the personality presence of spirit beings, and silent cosmic contemplation. The schools of cosmic philosophy here conduct their graduation exercises, and here also do the mortals of the realm receive planetary recognition for achievements of high social service and for other outstanding attainments.

 

Indeed, these ceremonies would be pretty pale for the mortals if the temple were entirely undetectable by them.

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I understand what you guy's are cautioning about, in relation to the u.b. I think for me the paragraph that best summarize's what some of this conversation is dealing with would be these paragraphs. Still I can't help but feel that there are some gifted U.B reader's with some good idea's regarding the physics of morontia substance and I don't think there is a danger in taking some good guesses.

 

 

1099.1) 100:5.3 It should be made clear that professions of loyalty to the supreme ideals — the psychic, emotional, and spiritual awareness of God-consciousness — may be a natural and gradual growth or may sometimes be experienced at certain junctures, as in a crisis. The Apostle Paul experienced just such a sudden and spectacular conversion that eventful day on the Damascus road. Gautama Siddhartha had a similar experience the night he sat alone and sought to penetrate the mystery of final truth. Many others have had like experiences, and many true believers have progressed in the spirit without sudden conversion.

 

(1099.2) 100:5.4 Most of the spectacular phenomena associated with so-called religious conversions are entirely psychologic in nature, but now and then there do occur experiences which are also spiritual in origin. When the mental mobilization is absolutely total on any level of the psychic upreach toward spirit attainment, when there exists perfection of the human motivation of loyalties to the divine idea, then there very often occurs a sudden down-grasp of the indwelling spirit to synchronize with the concentrated and consecrated purpose of the superconscious mind of the believing mortal. And it is such experiences of unified intellectual and spiritual phenomena that constitute the conversion which consists in factors over and above purely psychologic involvement.

 

(1099.3) 100:5.5 But emotion alone is a false conversion; one must have faith as well as feeling. To the extent that such psychic mobilization is partial, and in so far as such human-loyalty motivation is incomplete, to that extent will the experience of conversion be a blended intellectual, emotional, and spiritual reality.

 

(1099.4) 100:5.6 If one is disposed to recognize a theoretical subconscious mind as a practical working hypothesis in the otherwise unified intellectual life, then, to be consistent, one should postulate a similar and corresponding realm of ascending intellectual activity as the superconscious level, the zone of immediate contact with the indwelling spirit entity, the Thought Adjuster. The great danger in all these psychic speculations is that visions and other so-called mystic experiences, along with extraordinary dreams, may be regarded as divine communications to the human mind. In times past, divine beings have revealed themselves to certain God-knowing persons, not because of their mystic trances or morbid visions, but in spite of all these phenomena.

 

(1099.5) 100:5.7 In contrast with conversion-seeking, the better approach to the morontia zones of possible contact with the Thought Adjuster would be through living faith and sincere worship, wholehearted and unselfish prayer. Altogether too much of the uprush of the memories of the unconscious levels of the human mind has been mistaken for divine revelations and spirit leadings.

 

(1099.6) 100:5.8 There is great danger associated with the habitual practice of religious daydreaming; mysticism may become a technique of reality avoidance, albeit it has sometimes been a means of genuine spiritual communion. Short seasons of retreat from the busy scenes of life may not be seriously dangerous, but prolonged isolation of personality is most undesirable. Under no circumstances should the trancelike state of visionary consciousness be cultivated as a religious experience.

Edited by boomshuka

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Todd and All,

 

Perhaps instead of using the word "finite", I should have used the word "material" or "matter". By finite, I meant the corporeal (which I'm sure you knew). In other words, no scientist is going to come up with a tangible way to measure or visualize morontia substance, nor will any scientist be able to manufacture morontia substance regardless of his/her ability theorize on its make up. If TUB says it cannot be perceived by us with our material senses, then they mean what they say. End of story. Dream and fantasize all you like, it is the nature of the creative mind to do so, but it would be a much better use of time and space to be co-creative and actually make a soul, in my opinion.

 

Therefore, my point is exactly as Todd has said, it is a subjective experience, one which can only be experienced with the morontia mind (soul) as long as we are living on this particular planet (space) at this particular time. We can conjecture all we like about morontia substance but we cannot prove it, take a picture of it or reproduce it. We cannot feel it, taste it, hear it or see it with our physical, material senses, or physical, material machines. Yet, we are told that some of our prophets have had morontia experiences, such as Paul and John, they have "seen" and "heard" then attempted to describe it:

 

48:6.23 When the apostle spoke of being “caught up to the third heaven,” he referred to that experience in which his Adjuster was detached during sleep and in this unusual state made a projection to the third of the seven mansion worlds. Some of your wise men saw the vision of the greater heaven, “the heaven of heavens,” of which the sevenfold mansion world experience was but the first; the second being Jerusem; the third, Edentia and its satellites; the fourth, Salvington and the surrounding educational spheres; the fifth, Uversa; the sixth, Havona; and the seventh, Paradise.

 

47:10.2 John the Revelator saw a vision of the arrival of a class of advancing mortals from the seventh mansion world to their first heaven, the glories of Jerusem. He recorded: “And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and those who had gained the victory over the beast that was originally in them and over the image that persisted through the mansion worlds and finally over the last mark and trace, standing on the sea of glass, having the harps of God, and singing the song of deliverance from mortal fear and death.” (Perfected space communication is to be had on all these worlds; and your anywhere reception of such communications is made possible by carrying the “harp of God,” a morontia contrivance compensating for the inability to directly adjust the immature morontia sensory mechanism to the reception of space communications.)

 

So, how did they "see" the morontia mansion worlds and morontia beings when those morontia beings themselves have difficulty due to their immature morontia sensory systems? As I've tried to explain so many times on this forum, it is with the eyes of the soul (morontia mind). Why people have such a hard time with this, I really don't understand. It's probably just too easy, but maybe not too easy for those who choose not to believe in souls. I really don't know.

 

Furthermore, the morontia Jesus was visualized and heard (but not felt) by hundreds of people. These events were not necessarily experienced via the soul. They were made available by morontia intelligences and their transforming associates. This means that if God wanted us to have a corporeal encounter with the morontia level, he could make it happen despite the paucity of soul (morontia mind), if he so desired. But I assure you, no human being can do that no matter how brilliant they are.

 

Moreover, we are told that Jesus will not return until all can "see" him. If he is not returning as flesh and blood, then only the eyes of the soul will be able to see him. Better to spend time on developing spiritual eyes than dreaming about the particle physics of morontia substance, in my opinion. Of course, I speak for only for myself.

 

176:4.5 Only one thing we are certain of, that is, when he does return, all the world will likely know about it, for he must come as the supreme ruler of a universe and not as the obscure babe of Bethlehem. But if every eye is to behold him, and if only
spiritual eyes
are to discern his presence, then must his advent be long deferred.

 

167:7.4 And do you not remember that I said to you once before that, if you had your
spiritual eyes
anointed, you would then see the heavens opened and behold the angels of God ascending and descending?

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Todd and All,

 

Perhaps instead of using the word "finite", I should have used the word "material" or "matter". By finite, I meant the corporeal (which I'm sure you knew). In other words, no scientist is going to come up with a tangible way to measure or visualize morontia substance, nor will any scientist be able to manufacture morontia substance regardless of his/her ability theorize on its make up.

 

No, I didn't know you that by "finite" you meant "corporeal" or "material". Note that the UB applies the word "material" to morontia as well, in the passage quoted earlier by HSTa.

 

(541.6) 48:1.3 All of these worlds are architectural spheres, and they have just double the number of elements of the evolved planets. Such made-to-order worlds not only abound in the heavy metals and crystals, having one hundred physical elements, but likewise have exactly one hundred forms of a unique energy organization called
morontia material
. The Master Physical Controllers and the Morontia Power Supervisors are able so to modify the revolutions of the primary units of matter and at the same time so to transform these associations of energy as to create this new substance.

 

As a philosopher, I choose my words with care. I assume that the authors of the UB do, too. The words "substance" and "material" are not interchangeable. If morontia is a nonmaterial substance, then calling it a material is contradictory. However, when "material" is used as a noun, it is sometimes used loosely to refer to substance in general, so maybe that's what's happening in this passage. So I'll continue to assume that, despite this occurrence of "morontia material", that morontia is supposed to be nonmaterial substance.

 

You've stated that because morontia is nonmaterial, no scientist will find a way to measure or visualize it (or create it). But this is a non sequitur, unless you add the premise that there are no causal interactions between morontia and matter. I don't see why you would add that premise, however, since it appears to be contradicted by the UB. If there are causal interactions between morontia and matter, then it is possible to measure or at least detect morontia with the physical senses or extensions of them. We can't see neutrinos either, but we can detect them.

 

If we want to try to actually understand these concepts, we have to ask certain basic questions. For example, in virtue of what do we call material substance "material" in the first place? If morontia exists, and it is a nonmaterial substance, then unless we can say something about what makes one substance material and another nonmaterial, we really are just throwing words around without knowing their meaning.

 

If the "primary units of matter" are themselves material things, then when the Master Physical Controllers and the Morontia Power Supervisors "modify the revolutions" of these material things, do they then cease to be material things? The claim that morontia is nonmaterial would seem to imply that. So, we end up with a "material" that is made from matter, but is not matter. Does it continue to have any of the properties of matter? Is it inertial? Extended in space?

 

If TUB says it cannot be perceived by us with our material senses, then they mean what they say. End of story. Dream and fantasize all you like, it is the nature of the creative mind to do so, but it would be a much better use of time and space to be co-creative and actually make a soul, in my opinion.

 

Who is to say that soul-making excludes the philosophical analysis of concepts? This is what I do. I find it a good way to spend my time.

 

So, how did they "see" the morontia mansion worlds and morontia beings when those morontia beings themselves have difficulty due to their immature morontia sensory systems? As I've tried to explain so many times on this forum, it is with the eyes of the soul (morontia mind). Why people have such a hard time with this, I really don't understand. It's probably just too easy, but maybe not too easy for those who choose not to believe in souls. I really don't know.

 

But as mortal creatures endowed with material mind systems, as well as morontia minds in various stages of development or decay, if we are able to think, speak, and refer to these morontia realities at all then those realities have somehow managed to impinge upon us materially. If your morontia mind were causally disconnected from your material nervous system, your nervous system could not register and allow you to report, however metaphorically, your (or Paul's) experiences of morontia substance.

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It would seem from reading the u.b that some individuals have seen the mansion world's not just in their imagination but in a real vision. Some have described very specific details about the mansion world's and confused these places with Paradise. I have no idea how that is possible though, I can only guess that they were cosmically minded and functioning with a fully adjutant mind. I am guessing they were all advanced mindally and spiritually, but for them to see the mansion worlds in detail I doubt they were having a vivid imaginative experience, I would venture to say they were viewing these world's for a moment very intently. My guess though is that it was threw the soul, some way some how the experience is probably undescribable, perhaps it would be similar to conversation experience.

 

The word material is thrown around alot in the u.b. Material Mind is not made up of atom's but it is an energy system that I believe the revelator's consider material because it is a creature mind. IMO they use Material to describe energy system's as well as physical system's. Ex. Material son's and daughter's. The word material here describe's being's who are natives to worlds where they have this more enduring substance and still referred to as material.

 

It could be that they referr to anything that responds to material gravity as material.....I am not to sure, but they use the word pretty loosely to describe a wide varity of thing's I am sure there is a underlying connection though because they never use the word material to describe anything higher up on the food chain.

Edited by boomshuka

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UB (865.3) 77:8.10 Midwayers vary greatly in their abilities to make contact with the seraphim above and with their human cousins below. It is exceedingly difficult, for instance, for the primary midwayers to make direct contact with material agencies. They are considerably nearer the angelic type of being and are therefore usually assigned to working with, and ministering to, the spiritual forces resident on the planet. They act as companions and guides for celestial visitors and student sojourners, whereas the secondary creatures are almost exclusively attached to the ministry of the material beings of the realm.

 

UB (865.4) 77:8.11 The 1,111 loyal secondary midwayers are engaged in important missions on earth. As compared with their primary associates, they are decidedly material. They exist just outside the range of mortal vision and possess sufficient latitude of adaptation to make, at will, physical contact with what humans call “material things.” These unique creatures have certain definite powers over the things of time and space, not excepting the beasts of the realm.

 

 

I’m not sure about how to interpret this: They exist just outside the range of mortal vision…

 

To me the statement seems do indicate that the secondary Midwayers are invisible in the octave of visible light (UB octave 46, i.e. wavelengths about 0.4 to … 0.8 micrometer) but they might be seen outside of this electromagnetic octave? Or are they for instance only visible in the ultraviolet range with apparatus that are able to convert ultraviolet light to visible impressions?

 

I don’t think that it is impossible to assume that we might one day be able to visualise secondary Midwayers for instance by ultraviolet to visible light converters.

Edited by HSTa

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On a related note, I'm reminded of "adjutant mind". Is there anything less material

than a "level of consciousness of the Divine Minister" [(402.1) 36:5.4] ? Yet

when engaged with our neuro-bio-chemistry, these spiritual circuits can serve we

material creatures as a system of mind. Seriously, and as a physicist, I regard the

phenomenon of material matter to be more miraculous by far than fandors.

 

As for midwayers, some of my best friends eye cannot see :)

Nigel

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But as mortal creatures endowed with material mind systems, as well as morontia minds in various stages of development or decay, if we are able to think, speak, and refer to these morontia realities at all then those realities have somehow managed to impinge upon us materially. If your morontia mind were causally disconnected from your material nervous system, your nervous system could not register and allow you to report, however metaphorically, your (or Paul's) experiences of morontia substance.

 

Again, it is clearer than ever to me that you don't understand what I'm saying. I'm really sorry about that since I'm being as clear as I can be. Paul's experience did not impinge on him materially. He experienced it with his soul and then attempted to describe it with his material mind. The material mind attempts to makes sense of these things, but it can only approximate; it will always be partial. The only way to adequately describe the morontia experience is by bearing fruit. It is a living experience and must be lived out.

 

Consider the following quote:

 

12:8.8 Mind is the technique whereby spirit realities become experiential to creature personalities. And in the last analysis the unifying possibilities of even human mind, the ability to co-ordinate things, ideas, and values, is supermaterial.

 

Paul experienced the morontia in his soul, but in order to relate what he saw and heard, he had to coordinate in the human mind according to his material ideas and values. He had to bring the supermaterial to the level of the material and that cannot be done with accuracy. It is an approximation.

 

Incidentally, where does it say in TUB that the morontia impinges on the material? It doesn't. Morontia is supermaterial, an entirely different reality. The morontia is a realm of reality that bridges the two levels, material and spiritual, but it is a separate reality. There is no impinging. The morontia world does not influence the material world, otherwise the soul would be able to function in the material world, and it cannot. Nor can it function on the spiritual level (without the Adjuster). It can only exist and function on the morontia level, which is why so few people are conscious of their souls. It's because this type of consciousness comes from the superconscious, not the intellect. I can't say it any more plain than that.

 

111:3.2 During the life in the flesh the evolving soul is enabled to reinforce the supermaterial decisions of the mortal mind.
The soul, being supermaterial, does not of itself function on the material level of human experience.
Neither can this subspiritual soul, without the collaboration of some spirit of Deity, such as the Adjuster, function above the morontia level.

 

If you want to discover supermaterial properties of morontia, then you must engage the supermaterial portion of your mind.

 

101:5.7 2. The supermaterial phase of the human being, the soul or even the indwelling spirit.

 

In the following quote, you will note that the author emphatically states that morontia mota, the mechanism by which one perceives morontia, is not attainable by material personalities. It is attainable, however, by the morontia personality. What is the morontia personality? During our lifetime, it is when the personality reaches a level of reality which enables it to identify with the soul. This is an event that gives the soul full consciousness, an event that usually happens in the higher/highest psychic circles. Otherwise, the personality must wait until death in order to identify with the soul (morontia mind) and to be described as a morontia personality.

 

103:6.7 Your difficulty in arriving at a more harmonious co-ordination between science and religion is due to your utter ignorance of the
intervening domain
of the morontia world of things and beings. The local universe consists of three degrees, or stages, of
reality manifestation
: matter, morontia, and spirit. The morontia angle of approach erases all divergence between the findings of the physical sciences and the functioning of the spirit of religion. Reason is the understanding technique of the sciences; faith is the insight technique of religion;
mota is the technique of the morontia level. Mota is a supermaterial reality sensitivity
which is beginning to compensate incomplete growth, having for its substance knowledge-reason and for its essence faith-insight. Mota is a
superphilosophical reconciliation of divergent reality perception which is nonattainable by material personalities
; it is predicated, in part, on the experience of having survived the material life of the flesh. But many mortals have recognized the desirability of having some method of reconciling the interplay between the widely separated domains of science and religion; and metaphysics is the result of man’s unavailing attempt to span this well-recognized chasm. But human metaphysics has proved more confusing than illuminating.
Metaphysics stands for man’s well-meant but futile effort to compensate for the absence of the mota of morontia.

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