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Posts posted by -Scott-

  1. There we go!

    That's the quote, -Scott-




    That's it right there in a nutshell, for me.


    Thats a great quote. It appears only a self that has its seat of identity on the spiritual level will survive. That quote may scare some readers, and they may think well what about friends and family who are atheists? Well the thing to also remember is that because all children are given thought adjusters, every human being has made a true morale choice. Those morale choices we made as kids created a higher self. So essentially almost all people have a higher self. Even if they grew up as hardcore materialists. Even if they are only functioning with their material seated self there is still that higher self waiting for them. Because there is no such thing as an iniquitous six year old.


    The real jeopardy comes as mansion world students. We will not have an ignorant animal origin self to fall into. We will have to either go with the flow of what we are learning or cease to exist. However in this life we can hang our hat on the fact that ignorance really is not sin. It will be impossible to be ignorant of basic fundamental relationships on the mansion worlds though.

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  2. I'm really curious about what folks here have as the seat of identity.


    This is a huge topic, but I will start with these paragraphs as a lead in to what I am going to say further on down the road on this topic.


    111:1.5.Mortal mind is a temporary intellect system loaned to human beings for use during a material lifetime, and as they use this mind, they are either accepting or rejecting the potential of eternal existence. Mind is about all you have of universe reality that is subject to your will, and the soulthe morontia self—will faithfully portray the harvest of the temporal decisions which the mortal self is making. Human consciousness rests gently upon the electrochemical mechanism below and delicately touches the spirit-morontia energy system above. Of neither of these two systems is the human being ever completely conscious in his mortal life; therefore must he work in mind, of which he is conscious. And it is not so much what mind comprehends as what mind desires to comprehend that insures survival; it is not so much what mind is like as what mind is striving to be like that constitutes spirit identification. It is not so much that man is conscious of God as that man yearns for God that results in universe ascension. What you are today is not so important as what you are becoming day by day and in eternity.


    In this paragraph we can get another glimpse that there really is two "selfs". There is the mortal self which will die when our human body dies. Then there is the soul identity or our (higher self) which will become the identity of our soul. Now as a map reader maybe you will appreciate this symbology. Picture our human consciousness as an hour glass, with a very tight bottleneck in the middle. Now if we picture this human, mortal self as the identity of our human consciousness that is at the bottom of the our glass we will notice that it gently rests upon the electromechanism below. We will also see that our higher self or our soul identity/self is located in the higher domain of our consciousness. That higher identity is our adjuster identity, its our god-likeness or adjuster-likeness self. This higher identity gets copied after death and becomes our soul identity. Our higher personal self will actually become our morontia self once we die. There really is 3 main aspects of us that survive death our adjuster identity (higher self), our soul and our personality.





    111:1.4.Material evolution has provided you a life machine, your body; the Father himself has endowed you with the purest spirit reality known in the universe, your Thought Adjuster. But into your hands, subject to your own decisions, has been given mind, and it is by mind that you live or die. It is within this mind and with this mind that you make those moral decisions which enable you to achieve Adjusterlikeness, and that is Godlikeness.






    With all that in mind this quote should start to become a little clearer perhaps.


    112:2.20.The material self, the ego-entity of human identity, is dependent during the physical life on the continuing function of the material life vehicle, on the continued existence of the unbalanced equilibrium of energies and intellect which, on Urantia, has been given the name life. But selfhood of survival value, selfhood that can transcend the experience of death, is only evolved by establishing a potential transfer of the seat of the identity of the evolving personality from the transient life vehicle—the material body—to the more enduring and immortal nature of the morontia soul and on beyond to those levels whereon the soul becomes infused with, and eventually attains the status of, spirit reality. This actual transfer from material association to morontia identification is effected by the sincerity, persistence, and steadfastness of the God-seeking decisions of the human creature.


    ]We transfer our identity/self from material identification, to morontia identification and that ensures survival. Of coarse that does not mean that all human beings who refused to be spiritual in this life to any degree are going to not resurrect on the mansion worlds. The mansion world life is an extension of this life, and all we need to survive this life is a "faint flicker of faith". Of coarse that does not mean people cannot die on the mansion worlds either.


    216.3) 111:1.2 There is a cosmic unity in the several mind levels of the universe of universes. Intellectual selves have their origin in the cosmic mind much as nebulae take origin in the cosmic energies of universe space. On the human (hence personal) level of intellectual selves the potential of spirit evolution becomes dominant, with the assent of the mortal mind, because of the spiritual endowments of the human personality together with the creative presence of an entity-point of absolute value in such human selves. But such a spirit dominance of the material mind is conditioned upon two experiences: This mind must have evolved up through the ministry of the seven adjutant mind-spirits, and the material (personal) self must choose to co-operate with the indwelling Adjuster in creating and fostering the morontia self, the evolutionary and potentially immortal soul.


    I think the hour glass analogy is great because not only is there a top and bottom area in the human consciousness where one part is on a electrochemical base and the top is on a spiritual base, but also this quote clearly shows that with the "assent of the mortal mind" we begin to develop a relationship with our adjuster. Also our mind must have "evolved UP through the ministry of the seven adjustants". There is a lot of symbolical words in the u.b that IMO are the revelators trying to get us to think literally about ascending upwards.

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  3. Sounds like we coincide here. Now that I've found God (He is He!) so who exactly am I? What is my core person really like? In the end, the answer, like you said, is follow the SoT, probably back to the Adjuster, maybe even 'self-acting' personality!


    But then I ask, will we ever know ourselves in completion, even 'repletion'? And another question then comes up, is this excessive self examination, a reason not to simply serve and patiently watch as all Father's magnificent creation blossoms one experience at a time, in his good time?


    Hey, I agree we are supposed to be "self" forgetting, and not "self" examine but the personality is not a self :). So that should give us some clarity. From study sessions we discussed that the personality is not completely integrated with our selfhood until we are finaliters. Hopefully I can find that quote though for this topic. What personality is really like? I honestly do not know, either than what I read in the u.b. But I am excited to find out. :).



    The quote is about personality realization which is not the same as experiencing the personality. It's about the personality experiencing reality and choosing it. Personality realization occurs with experience in the seven psychic circles of spiritual growth. The higher you go, the more real you become. This has nothing to do with experiencing the personality. It has to do with personality realization, which is the process of becoming more real. And the process of becoming more real is the process of becoming more spiritual.


    Right because experiential personality realization has nothing to do with "experiencing" our own personality. They just throw the word experiential in for poetic justice? How do you think we actually experience our personality it is not through fiat. It is through experience. That is why they bring up the seven psychic circles. Those circles we attain experientially. Almost as though they are similar to "progressive realms". Personality realization is tied to experience that is why they don't leave the word experience out. I agree though the higher we go the more real we become, but going higher is an experiential process, realizations come from effort, struggle etc.


    Personality can be experientially realized in the progressive realms of the material, the morontial, and the spiritual


    The sum total of personality realization on a material world is contained within the successive conquest of the seven psychic circles of mortal potentiality.


    (112:1.12) Much trouble experienced by mortals in their study of human personality could be avoided if the finite creature would remember that dimensional levels and spiritual levels are not co-ordinated in experiential personality realization.

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  4. Bonita: A "level where we are experiencing our own personality" are your exact words. Maybe you didn't mean what you wrote, but I don't know that. I only know what you wrote and it doesn't take any twisting to come up with my conclusion.


    We've been down this road before, you and me. You use words differently than I do so things you say make no sense to me


    Yes those where my words and we can get to a point or level in our development where we are capable of experiencing our own personality. I don't see how this doesn't make sense to you ?!


    112:1.4.3. Value status. Personality can be experientially realized in the progressive realms of the material, the morontial, and the spiritual


    Yes we were down this road before, and when you were faced with quotes that showed that I was speaking the truth you just ignored them and moved on (105:7.2) (9:1.1)(188:0.1) , just like you will probably do with this quote I am providing right now.


    In the 1st instance I stated that the authors use different name designations to describe different facets of deity and I provided a quote that proved that. But somehow you convinced yourself that I was wrong. (9:1.1)


    The 2nd instance I stated that Havona is also experiential. Though I agreed later on that this is not entirely true, it turns it I was not exactly wrong either and that there is a quote that states that the Central Universe is Superexperiential. (105:7.2).


    I than showed how through god the sevenfold, the 2nd and 3rd persons of deity can experience the superexperiential reality of the Central Universe.

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  5. Just to get the ball rolling, I will provide some quotes about the self, just so that I can etleast establish in this conversation that there such a thing as a self/identity....Hopefully there can be some agreement on this etleast, but if not I guess thats okay to. Everyone is entitled to their own belief and I don't want to use the u.b like a hammer.







    112:2.16.An ascending onetime human personality passes through two great phases of increasing volitional dominance over the self and in the universe:


    65 - (133:7.7) Ideas are not simply a record of sensations; ideas are sensations plus the reflective interpretations of the personal self; and the self is more than the sum of one's sensations. There begins to be something of an approach to unity in an evolving selfhood, and that unity is derived from the indwelling presence of a part of absolute unity which spiritually activates such a self-conscious animal-origin mind.


    25 - (94:11.6)But a great limitation in the original gospel of Siddhartha, as it was interpreted by his followers, was that it attempted the complete liberation of the human self from all the limitations of the mortal nature by the technique of isolating the self from objective reality. True cosmic self-realization results from identification with cosmic reality and with the finite cosmos of energy, mind, and spirit, bounded by space and conditioned by time.


    27 - (99:5.1) While religion is exclusively a personal spiritual experience—knowing God as a Father—the corollary of this experience—knowing man as a brother—entails the adjustment of the self to other selves, and that involves the social or group aspect of religious life







    100:6.3.The marks of human response to the religious impulse embrace the qualities of nobility and grandeur. The sincere religionist is conscious of universe citizenship and is aware of making contact with sources of superhuman power. He is thrilled and energized with the assurance of belonging to a superior and ennobled fellowship of the sons of God. The consciousness of self-worth has become augmented by the stimulus of the quest for the highest universe objectives—supreme goals.


    100:6.4.The self has surrendered to the intriguing drive of an all-encompassing motivation which imposes heightened self-discipline, lessens emotional conflict, and makes mortal life truly worth living.


    103:2.10 When the growing child fails of personality unification, the altruistic drive may become so overdeveloped as to work serious injury to the welfare of the self.


    I believe that this quote provides proof that there is indeed a higher self and a lower self. As Bonita has already provided a quote for, and IMO the higher self is not simply just a (higher urge). But a functional identity, or our (adjuster self).


    34 - (103:5.5) Human happiness is achieved only when the ego desire of the self and the altruistic urge of the higherself (divine spirit) are co-ordinated and reconciled by the unified will of the integrating and supervising personality




    2. The Self

    112:2.7.The universe fact of God's becoming man has forever changed all meanings and altered all values of human personality. In the true meaning of the word, love connotes mutual regard of whole personalities, whether human or divine or human and divine. Parts of the self may function in numerous ways—thinking, feeling, wishing—but only the co-ordinated attributes of the whole personality are focused in intelligent action; and all of these powers are associated with the spiritual endowment of the mortal mind when a human being sincerely and unselfishly loves another being, human or divine.



    54 - (112:7.6) On the evolutionary worlds, selfhood is material; it is a thing in the universe and as such is subject to the laws of material existence. It is a fact in time and is responsive to the vicissitudes thereof. Survival decisions must here be formulated. In the morontia state the self has become a new and more enduring universe reality, and its continuing growth is predicated on its increasing attunement to the mind and spirit circuits of the universes. Survival decisions are now being confirmed. When the self attains the spiritual level, it has become a secure value in the universe, and this new value is predicated upon the fact that survival decisions have been made, which fact has been witnessed by eternal fusion with the Thought Adjuster. And having achieved the status of a true universe value, the creature becomes liberated in potential for the seeking of the highest universe value—God.



    Well that was probably a bit over-kill to establish that there is in fact a self. One more quote just to add as a header for later dicussion is that this higher self/higher identity becomes the identity of our soul in the next life.


    9 - (5:6.7) The material self has personality and identity, temporal identity; the prepersonal spirit Adjuster also has identity, eternal identity. This material personality and this spirit prepersonality are capable of so uniting their creative attributes as to bring into existence the surviving identity of the immortal soul


    This "surviving identity" becomes the identity of our soul on the morontia life, and the process of always striving for a "higher self" continues on. IMO

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  6. Have you personally, meet Chris or spoken with him? If so, why would he not wish to partake of this forum, or any other forum for that matter? I have sampled some of his video presentations, and am not that impressed with the format.


    But I must admit, I now know where you are getting your thoughts from if not verbatim from what I have sampled from this Website? I would suggest that you allow Chris to speak for himself, because I am not sure that you are doing any justice to him by cloning what he does or does not seem to know.



    I am in a study session of his every tuesday afternoon, if you haven't notice I invite everyone on this forum to join in almost every week. I did not get this info from his website and his deciphering of the u.b is not outdated. It is well respected in the U.B community. His websites material is meant as a study aid, I am not cloning him. He doesn't have a copyright on the truths of the u.b I am not stealing his material. Also he has a free online study group for you or anyone on this forum to show up to and ask him personally about any of this. He isn't in hiding. Feel free to ask him yourself on our study group every tuesday. Any reader can call in and ask about anything.



    Raymond: I can't get no soul-satisfaction! Identification with soul. Transfer of material self-identity to soul-identity. Used to be a time I experienced more frequent religious experience. More open to 'feelings' - more desireous of learning, more open to receptivity - looked forward to it. Believe ego gets in the way of this.


    Hahah you got it man!!! I am going to spend some time formulating well thought out responses to this topic instead of doing my usual rush job. But just to start things off I totally agree in regards to human beings having an identity or stated in other words a "self", and I don't think its a stretch for us to consider that we have a better or "higher self"/Identity and a lower self. I will just leave on this quote for now, but I have a lot to say on this topic.


    (1613.3) 143:5.5 By this time Nalda was sobered, and her better self was awakened. She was not an immoral woman wholly by choice. She had been ruthlessly and unjustly cast aside by her husband and in dire straits had consented to live with a certain Greek as his wife, but without marriage. Nalda now felt greatly ashamed that she had so unthinkingly spoken to Jesus, and she most penitently addressed the Master, saying: “My Lord, I repent of my manner of speaking to you, for I perceive that you are a holy man or maybe a prophet.” And she was just about to seek direct and personal help from the Master when she did what so many have done before and since — dodged the issue of personal salvation by turning to the discussion of theology and philosophy. She quickly turned the conversation from her own needs to a theological controversy. Pointing over to Mount Gerizim, she continued: “Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and yet you would say that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship; which, then, is the right place to worship God?”

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  7. Your last statement, above “Very few human beings even consider that they have a higher self” would seem to imply that you have risen above “human beings” by some resent event(s) which you may have become aware of “self”, “personality”, “own personal nature”, or “you have to be functioning as a personal being.” Much of what you have expressed seems to be incoherent thought or you are just attempting to be abstinent. If I were talking to you face to face, I’d be asking you, what are you smoking? But, rather, what are you attempting to project, in these rather bizarre statements?


    Have you had some personal experience recently that has changed your otherwise, interesting personable-personality? What’s-up?


    Its called a urantia study group. We talk about the higher "self" and a lower "self" all the time in a study group who is headed by Chris Halvorson. He is a well respected and sought after teacher of the u.b maybe you have heard of him? He is not some crack-pot giving his own theories. He helps the u.b community decipher what is in the book, if you go onto many of the urantia websites you will notice that he is the one who deciphered most of the etymologies of words in the urantia book. And it is not that I just am taking Chris' word for it I have quotes to back up what I am saying and I can see that I will be needing those for this topic.


    Also I stated that I don't believe I have had many personal religous experiences so clearly I am not putting myself ahead of other human beings.

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  8. A "level where we are experiencing our own personality" are your exact words. Maybe you didn't mean what you wrote, but I don't know that. I only know what you wrote and it doesn't take any twisting to come up with my conclusion.


    We've been down this road before, you and me. You use words differently than I do so things you say make no sense to me. For instance, you wrote, "There are many human beings who are functioning just as their mortal 'self'." That sentence makes no sense. It needs elaboration. Everyone functions as their mortal self; who else are they going to function as? So obviously, you mean something else by this, but no one has a clue what it is you mean because of the words you chose. By your words, you're implying that the "mortal self" is impersonal, which makes no sense at all. Perhaps what you think you are saying is correct, but no one would know it because you are not communicating it in a language using TUB terms, and when you do use TUB terms, you assign different meanings to them than the rest of us.


    So . . . . what I'm saying is, "what we've got here is a failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach."



    Yes the adjuster makes a copy of our Higher self. This self is what survives. The animal origin self dies. There is a higher and a lower self. Its not rocket science. Our animal origin mindal origin self, which is linked to matter is just scaffolding to our higher self.


    By your words, you're implying that the "mortal self" is impersonal


    Read it again I am saying our "animal-origin self" is not personal. Which is our lower self.

    Human consciousness rests gently upon the electrochemical mechanism below and delicately touches the spirit-morontia energy system above


    Human beings can choose to dwell in the area of their consiousness that directly rests upon the electrochemical mechanism below. Or they can choose to dwell in the area of their consciousness which delicately touches the spirit-morontia energy system. Someone can literally have their head in the gutter their whole life if they choose.


    The following quotes show that a human being can function soley as animal like being if they choose to. Which is a being who is refusing to be personal.


    193.1) 16:7.2 The selective response of an animal is limited to the motor level of behavior. The supposed insight of the higher animals is on a motor level and usually appears only after the experience of motor trial and error. Man is able to exercise scientific, moral, and spiritual insight prior to all exploration or experimentation.

    (193.2) 16:7.3 Only a personality can know what it is doing before it does it; only personalities possess insight in advance of experience. A personality can look before it leaps and can therefore learn from looking as well as from leaping. A nonpersonal animal ordinarily learns only by leaping.

    (193.3) 16:7.4 As a result of experience an animal becomes able to examine the different ways of attaining a goal and to select an approach based on accumulated experience. But a personality can also examine the goal itself and pass judgment on its worth-whileness, its value. Intelligence alone can discriminate as to the best means of attaining indiscriminate ends, but a moral being possesses an insight which enables him to discriminate between ends as well as between means. And a moral being in choosing virtue is nonetheless intelligent. He knows what he is doing, why he is doing it, where he is going, and how he will get there.

    (193.4) 16:7.5 When man fails to discriminate the ends of his mortal striving, he finds himself functioning on the animal level of existence. He has failed to avail himself of the superior advantages of that material acumen, moral discrimination, and spiritual insight which are an integral part of his cosmic-mind endowment as a personal being.


    A personality can look before it leaps. But not all human beings are functioning as personal beings (by their own choice). I think this paragraph as well as others in the book can confirm this.

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  9. Religious experience and/or spiritual experience, whatever you want to call it, is not the experience of one's own personality; it's experience of God as an other-than-self person living within you. It's a personal experience of the relationship between yourself and the living God, between your personality and God's personality, one being imperfect, the other perfect. It's a all about the relationship.


    You always seem to twist my words and ignore any truth I am presenting which is not surprising. I never said a religous experience is the experience of ones own personality. I am saying we have to utilize our own personal nature in order to have a personal religous experience.


    In order to have a personal religous experience you have to be functioning as a personal being. Ie. personality. If someone is functioning completely impersonal they are just going to experience some mystic spiritual state at best. There are many human beings who are functioning just as their animal origin mortal "self". If you don't think so you are extremely nieve. Very few human beings even consider that they have a higher self.

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  10. Hey Rick thanks for the links. Indeed this is a topic that probably many study groups are asking, as I see this thread has talked about. Personality is a bit of a tricky thing IMO, what humans call personality is IMO just the self, or the tempermant of the self. To actually get to that level where we are experiencing our own personality seems to take some serious effort on our part. Of coarse, luckily we have Jesus to help us with that, both in the urantia book and within ourselves. :)

  11. I have noticed a bit of a pattern popping up in the u.b with regards to having just a purely spiritual experience vs a religous experience. It seems that it is possible for most human beings to have some sort of spiritual experience or experience their spiritual spiritual consciousness, but this experience alone is not really religous IMO. The u.b seems to indicate that a religous experience is spiritual but the major addition to it being spiritual is it being personal. I think many of the new-age mystic religions out there are just basically the believer attempting to have some profound spiritual experience. IMO this is not religious because its not personal, and it can be potentially evil because its often selfish. People who sit around wishing to experience some transcendent consciousness IMO just for the sake of having this experience are being selfish because they are not really doing it for anyone but themselves. Of coarse saying all of this, I have to admit with some humility that I don't believe I have personal religious experiences very often (if at all). So part of writing this is to challenge myself to go higher and devote myself more earnestly to a personal faith that Jesus had. So I am not just some island universe of spirituality cut off from the rest of world.


    Anyways here are some quotes about purely spiritual experiences IMO.


    87.4) 196:0.4 In the Master’s life on Urantia, this and all other worlds of the local creation discover a new and higher type of religion, religion based on personal spiritual relations with the Universal Father and wholly validated by the supreme authority of genuine personal experience. This living faith of Jesus was more than an intellectual reflection, and it was not a mystic meditation.


    Interesting that they seem to acknowledge that these mystic meditations can even happen. IMO a "mystic meditation" is nothing more than nonpersonal spiritual meditation.


    (1137.4) 103:6.14 When the philosophy of man leans heavily toward the world of matter, it becomes rationalistic or naturalistic. When philosophy inclines particularly toward the spiritual level, it becomes idealistic or even mystical.





    91:2.5.When religion is divested of a personal God, its prayers translate to the levels of theology and philosophy. When the highest God concept of a religion is that of an impersonal Deity, such as in pantheistic idealism, although affording the basis for certain forms of mystic communion, it proves fatal to the potency of true prayer, which always stands for man's communion with a personal and superior being.


    91:7.1.Mysticism, as the technique of the cultivation of the consciousness of the presence of God, is altogether praiseworthy, but when such practices lead to social isolation and culminate in religious fanaticism, they are all but reprehensible. Altogether too frequently that which the overwrought mystic evaluates as divine inspiration is the uprisings of his own deep mind. The contact of the mortal mind with its indwelling Adjuster, while often favored by devoted meditation, is more frequently facilitated by wholehearted and loving service in unselfish ministry to one's fellow creatures


    1:7.2.The great religious teachers and the prophets of past ages were not extreme mystics. They were God-knowing men and women who best served their God by unselfish ministry to their fellow mortals. Jesus often took his apostles away by themselves for short periods to engage in meditation and prayer, but for the most part he kept them in service-contact with the multitudes. The soul of man requires spiritual exercise as well as spiritual nourishment.



    8 - (100:5.10) The more healthful attitude of spiritual meditation is to be found in reflective worship and in the prayer of thanksgiving. The direct communion with one's Thought Adjuster, such as occurred in the later years of Jesus' life in the flesh, should not be confused with these so-called mystical experiences. The factors which contribute to the initiation of mystic communion are indicative of the danger of such psychic states. The mystic status is favored by such things as: physical fatigue, fasting, psychic dissociation, profound aesthetic experiences, vivid sex impulses, fear, anxiety, rage, and wild dancing. Much of the material arising as a result of such preliminary preparation has its origin in the subconscious mind.


    9 - (100:5.11) However favorable may have been the conditions for mystic phenomena, it should be clearly understood that Jesus of Nazareth never resorted to such methods for communion with the Paradise Father. Jesus had no subconscious delusions or superconscious illusions.

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  12. @ Absonite the authors say that the Son gives these mortals a gift.


    449.6) 40:8.3 When it becomes apparent that some synchronizing difficulty is inhibiting Father fusion, the survival referees of the Creator Son are convened. And when this court of inquiry, sanctioned by a personal representative of the Ancients of Days, finally determines that the ascending mortal is not guilty of any discoverable cause for failure to attain fusion, they so certify on the records of the local universe and duly transmit this finding to the Ancients of Days. Thereupon does the indwelling Adjuster return forthwith to Divinington for confirmation by the Personalized Monitors, and upon this leave-taking the morontia mortal is immediately fused with an individualized gift of the spirit of the Creator Son.


    God knows what that gift is.

  13. Are the races of color as described in the Urantia Book actual historical races? Were there actually people with orange, green, indigo, and blue skin? If so, what evidence is there outside the Urantia Book that these people existed?


    Skeletal remains help indicate a variety of different races. There is a wide variety of skeletal and especially skull remains that point to varying races that are extinct now. Also we have the Yellow and Red men walking around, not in their pure form but you can still get an idea.

  14. The word Universe is not used in just some poetic sense by the authors. If we break down the etymology of the word universe we can see how this relates to mother type diety. Uni literally means One. Verse means Turning. So the universe is (one turning). Mother type diety is concerned with the "whole". Hence the a cosmic system is part of the One or "whole". There is an individuality to that One, or a totality attitude as the authors restate it in another paragraph. Hence there is One turning. There is a "whole" that is fundamentally dynamic (turning) its not some static individuality its flowing. Mother type deity can engage the entire whole. Where as Father type deity is like a lazer beam its focused on the individual. The Father literally recognizes you as though you are on the only being in the universe. But the Mother recognizes you in relation to the whole. Of coarse that does not mean the Father is not aware of the whole, its just two different aspects of God. (God the Mother) and (God the Father). But all these aspects come from the Father Infinite. Father-Father is a designation IMO the authors use to bridge back mother type diety to the father. There is a finite upholder, absonite upholder which is God the Mother but at the Infinite functional level there is the Infinite Upholder which is the Father. Hence the Father-Father designation used by the authors. The Father is the Mother.

  15. Before I found the urantia book, from the ages of 13 to 17. I had a period where I was ubsessed with Deepak Chopra, Wayne Dyer and Doreen Virtue hahah I still have a soft spot for her. I would go to rieki sessions and get "healings" from a rieki master. I had a strong belief in Atlantis and Lemuria, and some superior ancient race. So when I found those parts in the book about the Adamites and Nodites it was easy for me to accept. Even innitially after finding the u.b and even believing in its divine origin, it took me a couple years to really let all that stuff go totally. I have always tried to figure out how their philosophies fit in with the urantia book though. I have came to the conclusion that Wayne and Deepak were experiencing their spiritual consciousness but using it selfishly. They desired for an enhanced spiritual view of the world, and IMO they actually had relatively speaking a more enhanced spiritual view of the world than most human beings. But it wasn't a PERSONAL spiritual experience for them. They didn't IMO take their spiritual consciousness to the higher level of a personal religous life that Jesus had and that we can all have.



    I always ask myself now, what is my motivation for actually enhancing my viewpoint of the cosmos and integrating myself with it? Is it just so that I can have this experience for myself. Or is it so that I can what I have found and apply that to the outside world in some loving service to another human being. I think these people are close to a bona-fide PERSONAL religious experience, opposed to just a purely spiritual experience if they could only take a step away from panthiesm, towards a more unselfish, personal and loving religion.


    There is one quote in the u.b that I can think of that just calls to deepak hahah, I think anyone familiar with him will know what I mean.


    (31.2) 1:7.2 Man does not achieve union with God as a drop of water might find unity with the ocean. Man attains divine union by progressive reciprocal spiritual communion, by personality intercourse with the personal God, by increasingly attaining the divine nature through wholehearted and intelligent conformity to the divine will. Such a sublime relationship can exist only between personalities.


    I know deepak has used this exact analogy word for word even lol.


    I would also add this quote to Deepak. (1137.4) 103:6.14 When the philosophy of man leans heavily toward the world of matter, it becomes rationalistic or naturalistic. When philosophy inclines particularly toward the spiritual level, it becomes idealistic or even mystical.

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  16. Just as I have no trouble with The Absolute and The Ultimate, I have no trouble with The Supreme.


    I do have trouble with the UB undeniably referencing both the Second Source-Center and The Supreme as the "Universal Mother" - when those two are not the same. This issue isn't resolved for me by pretending they're talking about different levels of motherhood. They're talking about one level: the *Universal* - which makes referencing both the SSC and Supreme as the "Universal Mother" a false equivalence and/or a contradiction to me.


    The only way I can see to resolve this right now is to set aside the inconsistent familial analogy, and just run with The Supreme.


    Havona is a (super-experiential) Universe(105:7.2). Experiential deity all comes from the I AM. All we have to do is follow the bread-crumbs of the Supreme back to the I AM and see that even experiential deity is connected to the source of all reality, the end connects back with the beginning. The Eternal Son as God the sevenfold experiences superexperiential reality in Havona. Hence he is also a existential-experiential being.


    God the sevenfold in terms of the (Eternal Son, Infinite Spirit, Father) is a subinfinite expression of these Absolute individualities, and these deities are persent in Havona in this expression.


    The experiential meets up with the existential, and we get a Mother-Son. Havona is a Universe so he is also a Universal Mother as he is expressed through god the sevenfold. Mother type diety is more than just experiential type diety it is a certain type of love as Bonita suggested. A mothers love is blanketing, it recognizes relationships and covers all. A Fathers love is fixed on individuals its like a laser beam directed at every being as though they literally are the only being in the Universe.

  17. Personality is the meaning of the whole.


    Individuality of the whole can be individuality of personality - however, it also can simply reference the indivisibility of wholeness.


    This quote could mean many things but we know the Supreme has its own individuality (personality). So its not that mysterious of a quote. The Supreme is the individuality of the "whole" . She is also God the Mother. Our literal parent, in whom we literally have our being in. The Supreme Being is a power-personality synthesis. The "whole" and "personality" synthesize as one being.


    1288.1) 117:6.2 If you truly desire to find God, you cannot help having born in your minds the consciousness of the Supreme. As God is your divine Father, so is the Supreme your divine Mother, in whom you are nurtured throughout your lives as universe creatures. “How universal is the Supreme — he is on all sides! The limitless things of creation depend on his presence for life, and none are refused.”


    1288.4) 117:6.5 The morontia soul of an evolving mortal is really the son of the Adjuster action of the Universal Father and the child of the cosmic reaction of the Supreme Being, the Universal Mother. The mother influence dominates the human personality throughout the local universe childhood of the growing soul. The influence of the Deity parents becomes more equal after the Adjuster fusion and during the superuniverse career


    (1240.1) 112:7.19 True it is, you mortals are of earthly, animal origin; your frame is indeed dust. But if you actually will, if you really desire, surely the heritage of the ages is yours, and you shall someday serve throughout the universes in your true characters — children of the Supreme God of experience and divine sons of the Paradise Father of all personalities.


    (1281.5) 117:3.3 Said Jesus: “I am the living way,” and so he is the living way from the material level of self-consciousness to the spiritual level of God-consciousness. And even as he is this living way of ascension from the self to God, so is the Supreme the living way from finite consciousness to transcendence of consciousness, even to the insight of absonity.


    The Supreme is the living way from finite consciousness to transcendent consciousness because its only through the individuality of the Supreme (the individuality of the whole) that we are connected to others. If we ignore this aspect of God we are island universes, we can never be kindred spirits let alone kindred minds with anyone, spiritual unity with other human beings would be impossible for us.

  18. I think the question people may have is how do they discover this "individuality of the whole"? And is this even important? I think its safe to say that it is important .how people go about discovering this "individuality of the whole" IMO is a bit more complicated of a question haha, etleast for me. I do know that regarding systems there is "total planet" and "total universe" etc. So that totality individuality is still here if we can discover it.


    (115.4) 10:7.2 As things appear to the mortal on the finite level, the Paradise Trinity, like the Supreme Being, is concerned only with the total — total planet, total universe, total superuniverse, total grand universe. This totality attitude exists because the Trinity is the total of Deity and for many other reasons.


    IMO "for many other reasons" include God the Mother.



    I believe that when we discover the individuality of the whole, we are more easily engaged by the whole (God the Mother) as a finite upholder she can uphold us because we are not just living in a figmentary world. We are in unity with the whole. The finite upholder can uphold us because the form of our mind is the form of the cosmos. Of coarse there is also a chance that we always remain spiritual islands unto ourselves and refuse to unify ourselves with the cosmos.


    (670.2) 58:6.8 Through almost endless cycles of gains and losses, adjustments and readjustments, all living organisms swing back and forth from age to age. Those that attain cosmic unity persist, while those that fall short of this goal cease to exist.


    Though because there is a universal bestowal of adjusters, it would likely take a ton of effort to actually refuse this unity. I don't think ignorance alone could lead to our death.

  19. I just found a quote that summarizes Havona, I am not going to try and make the argument that it is experiential again, but its not exactly devoid of experiential reality either, just as I suggested earlier.


    105:7.2.That which is transcendental is not necessarily nondevelopmental, but it is superevolutional in the finite sense; neither is it nonexperiential, but it is superexperience as such is meaningful to creatures. Perhaps the best illustration of such a paradox is the central universe of perfection: It is hardly absolute—only the Paradise Isle is truly absolute in the "materialized" sense. Neither is it a finite evolutionary creation as are the seven superuniverses. Havona is eternal but not changeless in the sense of being a universe of nongrowth. It is inhabited by creatures (Havona natives) who never were actually created, for they are eternally existent. Havona thus illustrates something which is not exactly finite nor yet absolute. Havona further acts as a buffer between absolute Paradise and finite creations, still further illustrating the function of transcendentals. But Havona itself is not a transcendental—it is Havona.


    So apparently it could be described as "superexperiential".

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