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Urantia Book Forum, conversations with other readers

-Scott-

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Everything posted by -Scott-

  1. My question would be what exactly is a "true relationship"?? Is it what we think it is? I doubt it, whenever the authors add in something like "true" IMO its always something slightly more real than what we think it is. Also is the authors definition of "friend" the same as ours? I doubt that as well. IMO the authors have a different perspective on what relationships and even friends are than what we have. Yea I agree it is what it is. Its a place where we can all give our own interpretation of the urantia book and that can come off as dogmatic no matter if we are right or wrong about what we are saying. I think of forums like these as inkblot tests. Hahah or online journals to write our thoughts. The best way I found to post on these forums is probably to post the letters (IMO) as much as we can that way it doesn't come off as preachy.
  2. IMO this paragraph is very very revealing and IMO it also relates to the different levels of the golden rule and also the 3 cosmic intuitions. (1675.4) 149:6.3 “The ‘fear of the Lord’ has had different meanings in the successive ages, coming up from fear, through anguish and dread, to awe and reverence. And now from reverence I would lead you up, through recognition, realization, and appreciation, to love. When man recognizes only the works of God, he is led to fear the Supreme; but when man begins to understand and experience the personality and character of the living God, he is led increasingly to love such a good and perfect, universal and eternal Father. And it is just this changing of the relation of man to God that constitutes the mission of the Son of Man on earth. Jesus appears to be stating that his mission is to lead men up from a starting point of reverence, up through recognition, realization, appreciation and to love. IMO we can overlay those last 3 high levels with the different different levels of living the golden rule and also the cosmic intuitions. Here are the 3 highest levels. (1651.1) 147:4.7 “4. The level of brotherly love. Still higher is discovered the level of unselfish devotion to the welfare of one’s fellows. On this higher plane of wholehearted social service growing out of the consciousness of the fatherhood of God and the consequent recognition of the brotherhood of man, there is discovered a new and far more beautiful interpretation of this basic rule of life. (1651.2) 147:4.8 “5. The moral level. And then when you attain true philosophic levels of interpretation, when you have real insight into the rightness and wrongness of things, when you perceive the eternal fitness of human relationships, you will begin to view such a problem of interpretation as you would imagine a high-minded, idealistic, wise, and impartial third person would so view and interpret such an injunction as applied to your personal problems of adjustment to your life situations. (1651.3) 147:4.9 “6. The spiritual level. And then last, but greatest of all, we attain the level of spirit insight and spiritual interpretation which impels us to recognize in this rule of life the divine command to treat all men as we conceive God would treat them. That is the universe ideal of human relationships. And this is your attitude toward all such problems when your supreme desire is ever to do the Father’s will. I would, therefore, that you should do to all men that which you know I would do to them in like circumstances.” IMO we may first experience the fact of god (level of brotherly love), and from that fact of god we logically (1st cosmic intuition) deduce that all other people must be our spiritual brother if we are also a child god and we are than led by a sense of ethics to do good to other human beings because it is a fact that they are gods children. Essentially If we come to the realization we are gods children so must everyone else be. Than from that initial level or logical level IMO many people begin to develop an appreciation for people and feel a sense of duty towards them IMO this is related to the 2nd cosmic intuition (duty/moral discrimination), and than finally IMO through the ministry of the SOT we finally arrive as second milers who actually love one another, and at this level IMO we are truly personal beings in every sense of the word and we have finally advanced passed evolutionary religion to true religion, a religion based on love. That 3rd cosmic intuition (spirit insight) finally connects us directly to gods love and ministry and we are officially god-knowing in the eyes of the universe. IMO most human beings in their development of finding love and god go from first experiencing a strong factual intuitive sense that the father of mankind exists and acts upon that fact they are lead to a sense of morality or duty and than finally I believe we experience love. IMO once we experience the love from god, and have that coursing through us all those lower levels of living will become exponentially enhanced. IMO that spiritual love will flow through all our intuitions and our entire being giving everything in our perception of reality new meaning. 195:10.5.In winning souls for the Master, it is not the first mile of compulsion, duty, or convention that will transform man and his world, but rather the second mile of free service and liberty-loving devotion that betokens the Jesusonian reaching forth to grasp his brother in love and sweep him on under spiritual guidance toward the higher and divine goal of mortal existence. Christianity even now willingly goes the first mile, but mankind languishes and stumbles along in moral darkness because there are so few genuine second-milers—so few professed followers of Jesus who really live and love as he taught his disciples to live and love and serve. According to this paragraph most believers are only living on a level that involves compulsion, duty or convention for their fellow man. At the end of this paragraph the authors explain that few believers really live and love. That group would include everyone IMO, myself included. Interestingly enough duty is also that second cosmic intuition. IMO most believers get to the point where they are just about to care for other humans with a whole heart but stop right up at the gates of duty,compulsion or convention. IMO most people don't bust open that door to love.
  3. I don't think what we commonly associate with love is even close to love at all, and yes the u.b calls it a desire but it must be a whole-hearted desire. There is a huuuge difference IMO. The adjuster resides in the heart of our being, which is essentially our the core of our mind. IMO this entire mindal core needs to be utilized in order to make any whole-hearted descisions. IMO when we become whole-hearted beings Sin becomes a real possibility and so does love. At times I am almost pained to be compelled to portray the divine affection of the heavenly Father for his universe children by the employment of the human word symbol love. This term, even though it does connote man's highest concept of the mortal relations of respect and devotion, is so frequently designative of so much of human relationship that is wholly ignoble and utterly unfit to be known by any word which is also used to indicate the matchless affection of the living God for his universe creatures! How unfortunate that I cannot make use of some supernal and exclusive term which would convey to the mind of man the true nature and exquisitely beautiful significance of the divine affection of the Paradise Father. ~ The Urantia Book, (2:5.10) IMO Jesus mission was and still is to lead mankind to love, and IMO the full experience of recongition,realization, appreaciation and love is whole-hearted. (1675.4) 149:6.3 “The ‘fear of the Lord’ has had different meanings in the successive ages, coming up from fear, through anguish and dread, to awe and reverence. And now from reverence I would lead you up, through recognition, realization, and appreciation, to love. When man recognizes only the works of God, he is led to fear the Supreme; but when man begins to understand and experience the personality and character of the living God, he is led increasingly to love such a good and perfect, universal and eternal Father. And it is just this changing of the relation of man to God that constitutes the mission of the Son of Man on earth. If I had to gauge how I treat human beings I would probably place myself on the level of the brotherly love. IMO the full experience of all levels is akin to whole-heartedness. IMO we are just partially devoted to man, if we don't go all the way to the top and IMO partial devotion is not love. Let me now teach you concerning the differing levels of meaning attached to the interpretation of this rule of living, this admonition to ‘do to others that which you desire others to do to you’: (1650.5) 147:4.4 “1. The level of the flesh. Such a purely selfish and lustful interpretation would be well exemplified by the supposition of your question. (1650.6) 147:4.5 “2. The level of the feelings. This plane is one level higher than that of the flesh and implies that sympathy and pity would enhance one’s interpretation of this rule of living. (1650.7) 147:4.6 “3. The level of mind. Now come into action the reason of mind and the intelligence of experience. Good judgment dictates that such a rule of living should be interpreted in consonance with the highest idealism embodied in the nobility of profound self-respect. (1651.1) 147:4.7 “4. The level of brotherly love. Still higher is discovered the level of unselfish devotion to the welfare of one’s fellows. On this higher plane of wholehearted social service growing out of the consciousness of the fatherhood of God and the consequent recognition of the brotherhood of man, there is discovered a new and far more beautiful interpretation of this basic rule of life. (1651.2) 147:4.8 “5. The moral level. And then when you attain true philosophic levels of interpretation, when you have real insight into the rightness and wrongness of things, when you perceive the eternal fitness of human relationships, you will begin to view such a problem of interpretation as you would imagine a high-minded, idealistic, wise, and impartial third person would so view and interpret such an injunction as applied to your personal problems of adjustment to your life situations. (1651.3) 147:4.9 “6. The spiritual level. And then last, but greatest of all, we attain the level of spirit insight and spiritual interpretation which impels us to recognize in this rule of life the divine command to treat all men as we conceive God would treat them. That is the universe ideal of human relationships. And this is your attitude toward all such problems when your supreme desire is ever to do the Father’s will. I would, therefore, that you should do to all men that which you know I would do to them in like circumstances.” 117:6.10 All true love is from God, and man receives the divine affection as he himself bestows this love upon his fellows. Love is dynamic. It can never be captured; it is alive, free, thrilling, and always moving. Man can never take the love of the Father and imprison it within his heart. The Father’s love can become real to mortal man only by passing through that man’s personality as he in turn bestows this love upon his fellows. The great circuit of love is from the Father, through sons to brothers, and hence to the Supreme. The love of the Father appears in the mortal personality by the ministry of the indwelling Adjuster. Such a God-knowing son reveals this love to his universe brethren, and this fraternal affection is the essence of the love of the Supreme. I don't personally believe that any human being can truly receive the Fathers Love with half-hearted devotion. IMO we have to get our self up to a certain point where gods ministry and love can directly flow through us. IMO love that comes from a full heart is the love flowing through the adjuster, and IMO very few people are actually experiencing love. Each one of those levels also appear to be directly related to each cosmic intuition. Obviously its easy to see that with the 2nd intuition being "moral discrimination" and the 3rd being "spirit insight". Mortal man cannot possibly know the infinitude of the heavenly Father. Finite mind cannot think through such an absolute truth or fact. But this same finite human being can actually feel--literally experience--the full and undiminished impact of such an infinite Father's LOVE. Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return. ~ The Urantia Book, (3:4.6) The authors state only a god-knowing man/women can love. This just re-iterates that all love gods from god. It does not come from mushy feelings, or warm fuzzies, even though those are included in the experience of love. I am not a god-knowing person. Only a God-knowing individual can love another person as he loves himself. ~ The Urantia Book, (16:9.8) And finally here the authors just flat out state that there are not many human beings going beyond convention and duty, and not really living and not really loving. 195:10.5.In winning souls for the Master, it is not the first mile of compulsion, duty, or convention that will transform man and his world, but rather the second mile of free service and liberty-loving devotion that betokens the Jesusonian reaching forth to grasp his brother in love and sweep him on under spiritual guidance toward the higher and divine goal of mortal existence. Christianity even now willingly goes the first mile, but mankind languishes and stumbles along in moral darkness because there are so few genuine second-milers—so few professed followers of Jesus who really live and love as he taught his disciples to live and love and serve. 1:6.5. Some degree of moral affinity and spiritual harmony is essential to friendship between two persons; a loving personality can hardly reveal himself to a loveless person. Even to approach the knowing of a divine personality, all of man's personality endowments must be wholly consecrated to the effort; halfhearted, partial devotion will be unavailing. - (154:4.6) This world has never seriously tried to carry out the teachings of Jesus on a large scale, notwithstanding that halfhearted attempts have often been made to follow the doctrines of so-called Christianity. So yes I have a desire to do good to others, but it is a half-hearted desire.
  4. Yes it does reflect who I am as well. I am not devoting all my efforts offline to offering loving service to people because I am not a very loving person. Nor do I have self-mastery. I care about people but I don't really love anyone. I would love to be a second miler and I cannot wait until the day I am.
  5. I am just saying there is a difference between service, and personal service. I do not not see posting on these forums as personal service which IMO is essential. I agree that participating in these forums is still doing some sort of service and that doing something of service is usefull. I just don't think its possible to perform personal loving service over the interwebs. Its nothing personal against anyone, its just how I feel about the internet in general, its a great tool but to a degree it seperates us personally. I think I speak for most people in saying it would be great to actually go out and take these concepts and use them in real life situations instead of just posting them on the interweb. Which I am sure most people here are doing anyways. No offence taken . I think me and you are both grunts here haha. I just hope one day I can take my shovel and use it to effect people in the world of the living haha.
  6. @Howard I agree that posting on online forums is not "personal" hence it's not the service that Jesus instructed his followers to perform. This forum and others is more life a ink blot test. Where everyone reads a section in the book and shares what they see. The Spirit of Truth is activated by personal social service not writing on forums. But I post a lot online so I am hardly walking the 2nd mile myself. The measure that we have to go out to people with our message is a reflection of our own failure to live the gospel.
  7. Human beings even after they having perfected, still can experience growth from experience because we are "perfecting" beings. That perfecting never ends for us.
  8. Even on Paradise you will be growing through experience. We will always be finite beings no matter what. So we will always be growing through experience, even after we have found the Universal Father on paradise. Our journey will just be beginning! And the quest for the mother will pick up steam as we venture back out into the universes. There is never going to be a point it in the future of eternity where you are going to say to yourself "I think I have finished growing from experience and I have experienced it all". Also beings don't have to be finite to experience, experiential reality. After the Supreme is completed there is going to be adventure of the Ultimate. (1280.6) 117:2.6 There will come an end sometime to the growth of the Supreme; his status will achieve completion (in the energy-spirit sense). This termination of the evolution of the Supreme will also witness the ending of creature evolution as a part of Supremacy. What kind of growth may characterize the universes of outer space, we do not know. But we are very sure that it will be something very different from anything that has been seen in the present age of the evolution of the seven superuniverses. It will undoubtedly be the function of the evolutionary citizens of the grand universe to compensate the outer-spacers for this deprivation of the growth of Supremacy. (1280.7) 117:2.7 As existent upon the consummation of the present universe age, the Supreme Being will function as an experiential sovereign in the grand universe. Outer-spacers — citizens of the next universe age — will have a postsuperuniverse growth potential, a capacity for evolutionary attainment presupposing the sovereignty of the Almighty Supreme, hence excluding creature participation in the power-personality synthesis of the present universe age. (1294.10) 118:0.10 Creative growth is unending but ever satisfying, endless in extent but always punctuated by those personality-satisfying moments of transient goal attainment which serve so effectively as the mobilization preludes to new adventures in cosmic growth, universe exploration, and Deity attainment.
  9. You can use your morale consciousness, instead of using your spirit insight. The authors use the term " spiritual self-examination" as what not to do. yet in the same paragraph they say its okay for "self-analysis". One approach is to look at something through purely a spiritual lense and the other is to take use that morale consciousness. That moral consciousness will take into consideration facts as well as spirit insight. Its literally that midway intuition. If you are looking at something purely from a spiritual perspective you won't be looking at the whole picture. The universe is not just spiritual, nor are we.
  10. IMO perhaps one of the most direct ways we will experience the Supreme in this life is through the "individuality of the whole". IMO this is a cosmic harmony that when experienced will allow us to be "kindred minds" with other human beings who are experiencing that similar cosmic harmony within their being. IMO this is "individuality of the whole" is also "totality attitude". IMO this universal harmony is also a cosmic frame in which to view reality.
  11. Your spiritual consciousness alone is going to want to serve that self. Instead of focusing its attention on God. In essence you will be using it to serve your self. Your spiritual consciousness will be like "hey my self is way down there let me just keep my attention on it instead of god", instead of focusing on God and allowing god to reach down and minister to that self. Those spiritual ministries will grow you if you provide that bridge to them. If you allow your faith to turn into trust and you trust God, he will grow you. "seek the higher and the lesser will be found". If you reach up for God, all of your being (including your self) will follow you up. Of coarse that does not mean you don't have other avenues to approach the self. You still have a moral consciousness that you can use assuming you have began to utilize that 2nd cosmic intuition.
  12. I am just providing a couple quotes here that show that the Almighty is synthesizing with the Supreme. This is the personality-power synthesis that the authors talk about. (1269.1) 116:1.2 The union of the power and personality attributes of Supremacy is the function of Supreme Mind; and the completed evolution of the Almighty Supreme will result in one unified and personal Deity — not in any loosely co-ordinated association of divine attributes. From the broader perspective, there will be no Almighty apart from the Supreme, no Supreme apart from the Almighty. (1264.6) 115:4.7 The growth of Supremacy derives from the triodities; the spirit person of the Supreme, from the Trinity; but the power prerogatives of the Almighty are predicated on the divinity successes of God the Sevenfold, while the conjoining of the power prerogatives of the Almighty Supreme with the spirit person of God the Supreme takes place by virtue of the ministry of the Conjoint Actor, who bestowed the mind of the Supreme as the conjoining factor in this evolutionary Deity. Just thought I would add this one in. They could have just said the "Supreme Being" or "Almighty Supreme" is our mother, yet they refer to the very spiritual personality by referencing just the Supreme. 117:6.2.If you truly desire to find God, you cannot help having born in your minds the consciousness of the Supreme. As God is your divine Father, so is the Supreme your divine Mother, in whom you are nurtured throughout your lives as universe creatures. "How universal is the Supreme—he is on all sides! The limitless things of creation depend on his presence for life, and none are refused."
  13. If anyone is curious, Chris Halvorson has an amazing study synopsis of each one of the Supreme papers http://www.perfectinghorizons.org/AudioFiles/Part%20III-L%20Experiential%20Deity.htm. I have just started listening to them but so far they have really helped me. I also have permission from him to post material from his website on this forum, so hopefully this does not get taken down.
  14. The Supreme has a couple of facets. There is the Almighty facet and the individuality facet. The individuality facet of the Supreme comes from above, its engaging finite reality but its origin is transcendent of the finite or even the absonite, she is God the Mother and she has a "totality attitude" This totality attitude is being reflected by the cosmos and the individuals within that cosmos, we are literally connected to each through in a cosmic system through the individuality of the whole. This Mother is engaging the "parts and individuals of the grand universe" as she does she is synthesizing or having a "synthetic" relationship to the Grand Universe which is the Almighty facet. The Almighty grows as a result. I think this paragraph is also a preface for the rest of the paper, so its probably not meant to be understood right off the bat.
  15. Good quotes Alina, we can know the individuality of the Supreme because the Supreme is a person. Though We will not actually meet this personality face to face until the completion of the finite universe. We can experience that "individuality of the whole" from the Supreme. (1264.1) 115:4.2 The source of the Supreme is in the Paradise Trinity — eternal, actual, and undivided Deity. The Supreme is first of all a spirit person, and this spirit person stems from the Trinity. This spirit person is what is synthesizing with the (Power), to form the Supreme Being. That individuality of the whole is always in play. Though there seems to be some prerequisite to actually experiencing the harmony of this spirit person. 1260.1) 115:0.1 WITH God the Father, sonship is the great relationship. With God the Supreme, achievement is the prerequisite to status — one must do something as well as be something. (1284.2) 117:4.6 And so, as we strive for self-expression, the Supreme is striving in us, and with us, for deity expression. As we find the Father, so has the Supreme again found the Paradise Creator of all things. As we master the problems of self-realization, so is the God of experience achieving almighty supremacy in the universes of time and space. (1284.3) 117:4.7 Mankind does not ascend effortlessly in the universe, neither does the Supreme evolve without purposeful and intelligent action. Creatures do not attain perfection by mere passivity, nor can the spirit of Supremacy factualize the power of the Almighty without unceasing service ministry to the finite creation. (1284.4) 117:4.8 The temporal relation of man to the Supreme is the foundation for cosmic morality, the universal sensitivity to, and acceptance of, duty. This is a morality which transcends the temporal sense of relative right and wrong; it is a morality directly predicated on the self-conscious creature’s appreciation of experiential obligation to experiential Deity. Mortal man and all other finite creatures are created out of the living potential of energy, mind, and spirit existent in the Supreme. It is upon the Supreme that the Adjuster-mortal ascender draws for the creation of the immortal and divine character of a finaliter. It is out of the very reality of the Supreme that the Adjuster, with the consent of the human will, weaves the patterns of the eternal nature of an ascending son of God. Interesting that that this relation to the Supreme is directly related to morality, which also happens to be related to the 2nd cosmic intuition (morale discrimination) and (philosophy). I find this line also interesting. it is a morality directly predicated on the self-conscious creature’s appreciation of experiential obligation to experiential Deity. Man I wonder how many human beings are actually experiencing a morality predicted on the self-conscious appreciation of experiential deity. I bet it would be "sad to record" that few mortals are.
  16. (1260.3) 115:1.2 Conceptual frames of the universe are only relatively true; they are serviceable scaffolding which must eventually give way before the expansions of enlarging cosmic comprehension. The understandings of truth, beauty, and goodness, morality, ethics, duty, love, divinity, origin, existence, purpose, destiny, time, space, even Deity, are only relatively true. God is much, much more than a Father, but the Father is man’s highest concept of God; nonetheless, the Father-Son portrayal of Creator-creature relationship will be augmented by those supermortal conceptions of Deity which will be attained in Orvonton, in Havona, and on Paradise. Man must think in a mortal universe frame, but that does not mean that he cannot envision other and higher frames within which thought can take place.
  17. Just though I would add this quote as an example of what I mean. The Supreme is a transcendental-condition eternal, or a future eternal. The Supreme is also a personality. The Supreme Being does not need to be completed on the finite level in order for the individuality of the whole/Supreme to be experienced IMO. (13.3) 0:9.5 God the Supreme and God the Ultimate, now evolving in the experiential universes, are not existential — not past eternals, only future eternals, time-space-conditioned and transcendental-conditioned eternals. They are Deities of supreme, ultimate, and possibly supreme-ultimate endowments, but they have experienced historic universe origins. They will never have an end, but they do have personality beginnings. They are indeed actualizations of eternal and infinite Deity potentials, but they themselves are neither unqualifiedly eternal nor infinite.
  18. The Supreme Being is not complete in the finite. The Supreme is the individuality/personality of the Supreme Being, the Supreme is a real personality/personalization of God (God the Mother). That personality is complete IMO. The Power aspect of the Supreme Being is not complete in the finite universe. Yet in Havona that Power aspect is complete and the power has united with personality on the Absonite level and it is power-personality synthesizing now on the finite level. Time is kind of a wierd thing IMO, especially on the Absonite level. On the Absonite level there is something called Transcendentals. 1162.5) 106:0.5 3. Transcendentals. This superfinite level (antecedently) follows finite progression. It implies the prefinite genesis of finite beginnings and the postfinite significance of all apparent finite endings or destinies. Much of Paradise-Havona appears to be on the transcendental order. There is such a thing as "antecedent following". It takes some serious thinking to get this stuff IMO. I have as many questions as any one else about this stuff. The way I think about this is that time can move backwards as well as forwards in some way. You can have a transcendental from the future that is antecedent to the the present IMO. Its wierd. But perhaps the best way to think about is through this illustration. (0:3.16). No thing is new to God, and no cosmic event ever comes as a surprise; he inhabits the circle of eternity So if eternity is a circle and god inhabits that entire circle, perhaps some aspects of god can move in the other direction of eternity. (1261.5) 115:3.1 The absolute cosmos is conceptually without limit; to define the extent and nature of this primal reality is to place qualifications upon infinity and to attenuate the pure concept of eternity. The idea of the infinite-eternal, the eternal-infinite, is unqualified in extent and absolute in fact. There is no language in the past, present, or future of Urantia adequate to express the reality of infinity or the infinity of reality. Man, a finite creature in an infinite cosmos, must content himself with distorted reflections and attenuated conceptions of that limitless, boundless, never-beginning, never-ending existence the comprehension of which is really beyond his ability. So there is infinite-eternal and eternal-infinite. IMO this is hinting at eternity from two different directions. One moving in the linear fashion that we would think of, and the other moving in the opposite direction.
  19. The Supreme is has been here since the beginning of creation. He would have been just as aware of the Supreme as the ascending beings of today. The Supreme Being is the organism he would not have been aware of as a finite being. But on his arrival on Havona the Supreme Being would have really began to get a sense of this being. The Supreme Being is present on Havona, so he would have really gotten a good idea of this being on Havona. Also I bolded the part about the spiritual nature of the Supreme unifying with the power of the Almight. That is exaclty what the Supreme Being is, its the personal nature of the Supreme and the Creation (Power/Almighty) synthesizing together. In Havona creation (power) is already completed so that power-personality synthesis is already done in Havona. Havona is the pattern Universe of our Universe. 161.10) 14:6.23 4. The Supreme Being — the evolutionary unification of experiential Deity. The Havona creation is the eternal and perfect proof of the spiritual reality of the Supreme Being. This perfect creation is a revelation of the perfect and symmetrical spirit nature of God the Supreme before the beginnings of the power-personality synthesis of the finite reflections of the Paradise Deities in the experiential universes of time and space. (161.11) 14:6.24 In Havona the power potentials of the Almighty are unified with the spiritual nature of the Supreme. This central creation is an exemplification of the future-eternal unity of the Supreme. (161.12) 14:6.25 Havona is a perfect pattern of the universality potential of the Supreme. This universe is a finished portrayal of the future perfection of the Supreme and is suggestive of the potential of the Ultimate. (162.1) 14:6.26 Havona exhibits finality of spirit values existing as living will creatures of supreme and perfect self-control; mind existing as ultimately equivalent to spirit; reality and unity of intelligence with an unlimited potential. Also on our trip from a Superuniverse to Havona we won't be sleeping, we will be just as dead as we will when we die from this world. We won't be dreaming or anything there will be no consciousness at all. We will literally be unplugged, and than plugged back in. We leave our old body and old mind behind and travel in the same way that we will travel when we die in this life. Though the trip to Havona is going to be insanely long. A transport seraphim only goes 3 times the speed of light, and it has to at least clear the radius of the Superuniverse. The radius of the Superuniverse is at least half the distance of the Milky Way galaxy and than we will have to get to those dark energy tubes and pass through them and than we will finally get to Havona. It could end up being a 100,000 year trip hard to say exactly how far away Havona is from the center of the Milky Way, but it will be a long long ride.
  20. Individuals do not have relation to one each other except through the individuality of the "whole" the whole=totality reality. This inviduality of the total/whole is downstepped as "total planet" "total universe" etc. The individuality of the whole is always there to be discovered on all levels of "total" because the Supreme is the god of imminence. 1 - (10:7.2) As things appear to the mortal on the finite level, the Paradise Trinity, like the Supreme Being, is concerned only with the total—total planet, total universe, total superuniverse, total grand universe. This totality attitude exists because the Trinity is the total of Deity and for many other reasons. On our planet IMO we can experience this totality deity/ Individuality of the total through the Supreme Spirit which pervades finite reality. 8:9.4.The grand universe is mechanism as well as organism, mechanical and living—a living mechanism activated by a Supreme Mind, co-ordinating with a Supreme Spirit, and finding expression on maximum levels of power and personality unification as the Supreme Being. But to deny the mechanism of the finite creation is to deny fact and to disregard reality. 4 - (3:5.15) Throughout the universe, every unit is regarded as a part of the whole. Survival of the part is dependent on co-operation with the plan and purpose of the whole, The Supreme Being may not be able to be discerned but we can discern the individuality of the whole, because the Supreme is the individuality of the Supreme Being. The Supreme Being is a power personality-synthesis. The Almighty is the power and the Supreme is the Individuality/Personality. The Supreme already exists prior to this completed synthesis of the Supreme Being. (112:1.17)This distinction is vital, for in a cosmic system the individual members are not connected with each other except in relation to the whole and through the individuality of the whole. So me and you can become connected to each other in an intimate way if we both discover the individuality of the whole. IMO the trick is trying to figure out just what part of God does this Supreme come from??... The u.b mentions that she is God the Mother but she has to have some sort of connection to the I AM. IMO this is the Infinite Upholder. The very last concept or aspect of God. IMO this is the part of God that comes from the end of eternity-infinity and reaches back. The Supreme is a finite upholder and God is Lastly an Infinite Upholder. IMO the Supreme is a downstepped expression of the Infinite Upholder. IMO this is what the authors mean by Father-Father and Mother-Son ETC. The authors don't call the Father, Father-Mother, but they do mention him once as Father-Father. 1 - (8:1.2) The first act of the Infinite Spirit is the inspection and recognition of his divine parents, the Father-Father and the Mother-Son
  21. The measure of the spiritual capacity of the evolving soul is your faith in truth and your love for man, but the measure of your human strength of character is your ability to resist the holding of grudges and your capacity to withstand brooding in the face of deep sorrow. Defeat is the true mirror in which you may honestly view your real self. ~ The Urantia Book, (156:5.17) Thought I would pull a Van and try and add some love to the conversation.
  22. Whats the issue with that?? I don't see whats wrong with that at all. They admit to taking human concepts.
  23. I believe that, if we are honest and secure about our belief in the Urantia Book as a revelation, we shouldn't be afraid to discuss scholarly issues surrounding the text or to discuss topics that aren't specifically endorsed by the book itself. @Yoder have you ever visited the skeptics corner on the other u.b site? We talk about scholarly issues all the time, no one is afraid of those issues. Also Sadler never went around telling people that the book had errors in it. He believed that it was innerant. Which it is, and hasn't been proved otherwise.
  24. You open yourself up to danger anytime you deify a mortal being. That's the danger Lucifer played with.
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