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Urantia Book Forum, conversations with other readers

-Scott-

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  1. I find coming on here and going on study groups helps me because I am more interested in what others think. I don't form my viewpoints based just on what I think, I feel that others opinions are just as valid as mine. I think there is a trap that we can fall into where we may read the u.b and think to ourself well all that matters is "how I feel about this". I don't feel like creating my own authority over the u.b so I try and keep myself as open as possible to seeing the u.b from other viewpoints as much as possible, and if someone else has made a creative thought that matches up with the u.b I will take that truth wherever it may come from, I don't feel like this is a bad thing. If the universe IS, than whatever truth exists pertaining to the universe is not just true to someone else but all people IMO. If someone provides some insight into error,evil and sin that matches up with the urantia book I won't ignore it because "its not my truth" or because I didn't discover it. I think that is silly/selfish even a act of "self-assertion" to think that way.
  2. Yeap I agree no one should be forced to believe in anything. No doubt the desire to sound smart can hurt us, thats why I admit that a lot of my understandings come from study sessions and I am not responsible for picking out all these connections in the u.b . Apparently there was a message given to the original contact group to form study groups as well.
  3. @Alina those are great quotes especially for this topic. They definitely deal with this. The authors suggest that we can misuse, distort and perverse the finite. Not all evil and sin is the classical physical act of evil that is often portrayed in movies. The authors are suggesting IMO that the distortion of reality is where we can begin to develop evil. The type of sin that Lucifer was committing IMO was way above the level of typical forms of evil and sin that we are used to thinking about as a world. The urantia book states that evolution is creativity in time. - (105:6.5) 4. The divinity response to the imperfection inherent in the time lag of evolution is disclosed in the compensating presence of God the Sevenfold, by whose activities that which is perfecting is integrated with both the perfect and the perfected. This time lag is inseparable from evolution, which is creativity in time. The recognition of the time element of finite reality is paramount to our safety IMO, recognizing how reality relates to time will to keep us safe from sin IMO. I think some first time readers may look at this quote below and think well what is the real danger in being both a perfecting creature of time and having this spiritual consciousness that can set us free. (1222.1) 111:6.2 The courage required to effect the conquest of nature and to transcend one’s self is a courage that might succumb to the temptations of self-pride. The mortal dilemma consists in the double fact that man is in bondage to nature while at the same time he possesses a unique liberty — freedom of spiritual choice and action. On material levels man finds himself subservient to nature, while on spiritual levels he is triumphant over nature and over all things temporal and finite. Such a paradox is inseparable from temptation, potential evil, decisional errors, and when self becomes proud and arrogant, sin may evolve. The major dilemma IMO of having these two perspectives of the spiritual and material is that spiritual consciousness by itself has no recognition of time. Its fundamentally idealistic and when it see's some ideal it desires it right now. Our material consciousness is fundamentally aware of time, IMO its up to us to weave the two viewpoints together so that we have a true relationship to reality. An atheist will never be in peril of falling for some of the sophistries of the Lucifer rebellion because he/she has never used his/her spiritual consciousness. A lot of these sophistries that could result in our death await peoples recognition as they become more spiritual in their thinking. Its when we start becoming more spiritually aware that some of these nasty sophistries of the rebellion can potentially be acted on IMO. If we are attempting to get rid of the time element from reality by way of idealistic thinking, or attempting to rid someone else's relationship to time because our own ideals compel us to, we are acting disloyal to our relationship to Deity IMO. At first our impatience and desire to short circuit time may be just "disloyalty to deity" and we are not really fully aware of what we are doing, but at some point we will really slip up and be face to face with a decision in which we make a deliberate choice to be disloyal to deity by deliberately purposing that evil in our minds. What I mean by confuse though is that I picture sort of a flow of truth which is liquid mixed/confused with another liquid (falsehood) and this liquid flows through time because we are creatures of time and space. And then as that mixture of both truth and falsehood is given form in our minds we create literal space in our minds or literal disruption/ a breaking apart in our consciousness. Then finally as we purpose that evil and deliberate on it we weigh it against truth and choose to disrupt our relationship to finite reality on purpose, at which point we are sinning. The u.b seems to indicate that one of the quickest ways to sin is through the real nasty sophistry brought to our world called false liberty. With false liberty it does not necessarily have to be that we are overly in love with our self. It can be much simpler than that, it can just start with pure impatience. A spiritually aware person can become impatient and want liberty right now. At that point that person has to catch themselves and be really careful that they don't try and liberate their self or others from the over-control of Deity by trying to short circuit time. - (54:1.4) Liberty is suicidal when divorced from material justice, intellectual fairness, social forbearance, moral duty, and spiritual values. Liberty is nonexistent apart from cosmic reality, and all personality reality is proportional to its divinity relationships The others usually don't call anything suicidal. They seem to be suggesting IMO literal suicide or self-destruction. All someone has to be barren of is some of these attributes of material justice, intellctual fairness, social forbearance, moral duty and spiritual values to come suicide through false liberty. 54:1.2.True liberty is the quest of the ages and the reward of evolutionary progress. False liberty is the subtle deception of the error of time and the evil of space. Enduring liberty is predicated on the reality of justice—intelligence, maturity, fraternity, and equity A human being can just as easily attempt to short-circuit time for their self or others, we don't have to be a high spiritual being to commit this sophistry. 54:2.3.Lucifer's folly was the attempt to do the nondoable, to short-circuit time in an experiential universe Of coarse at the same time we don't want to go to slow. - (39:4.12) These seraphim teach the fruitfulness of patience: That stagnation is certain death, but that overrapid growth is equally suicidal; that as a drop of water from a higher level falls to a lower and, flowing onward, passes ever downward through a succession of short falls, so ever upward is progress in the morontia and spirit worlds—and just as slowly and by just such gradual stages. These are just some of the ideas I have regarding this topic, a lot of my understanding of this situation has come via study groups on tuesday afternoons from this show (symmetryofsoul.org). There is a archive on their website and they have a lot of shows dedicated to talking about the rebellion and this topic. So no I haven't made all these connections on my own in case anyone is wondering lol. But I am using my own words to describe how I feel about this.
  4. I think there is a correlation between this paragraph and error, evil, sin and iniquity. 1 - (118:7.7) Subpersonal living things indicate mind activating energy-matter, first as physical controllers, and then as adjutant mind-spirits. Personality endowment comes from the Father and imparts unique prerogatives of choice to the living system. But if personality has the prerogative of exercising volitional choice of reality identification, and if this is a true and free choice, then must evolving personality also have the possible choice of becoming self-confusing, self-disrupting, and self-destroying. The possibility of cosmic self-destruction cannot be avoided if the evolving personality is to be truly free in the exercise of finite will. I take this as: error (self-confusing), evil (self-disrupting) sin (self-destroying) and Iniquity (self-destruction). So on one hand in regards to error and evil. Error is both (self-confusing) and (the error of time) and with evil there is the evil of space and the fact that its self-disrupting. 54:1.2.True liberty is the quest of the ages and the reward of evolutionary progress. False liberty is the subtle deception of the error of time and the evil of space. Enduring liberty is predicated on the reality of justice—intelligence, maturity, fraternity, and equity Just trying to make sense of how we could perhaps visualize just what the error of time and the evil of space would look like, the u.b describes time as succession of instants or moments (118:3.1)for time is a succession of instants while space is a system of associated points. "The error of time" seems to suggests to me IMO that if truth is flowing through time that if it were to be mixed or (confused) with falsehood that this would be error, even the word confuse is related to a pouring together. IMO If we were then to try and give that error form in our minds we would probably end up with (self-disruption) which is the creation of space or the (evil of space). Dis is literally related to breaking apart or creating space. Than IMO if we were to take that evil even further and deliberate on it and than choose it after deliberation we begin to purpose that evil, than we would be committing sin or "self-destroying" IMO. Deliberate is related to weighing, in this case it probably relates to choosing to purpose good or purpose that evil disrupting form in our mind. IMO with committing sin it would involve the adjuster literally tearing down our soul as we choose destruction. Finally when there is nothing left of the soul we have self-destruction/iniquity, a empty vessel where the soul used to be.
  5. @Alina Yea the impatience of Eve definitely hurt and it would seem that impatience greatly influenced Lucifer as well. Patience is definitely the key I think to at least having a good and safe foundation. I think from our purely spiritual viewpoint we see something ideal and we want it now and we can tend to forget about time. 54:4.4.Most of the liberties which Lucifer sought he already had; others he was to receive in the future. All these precious endowments were lost by giving way to impatience and yielding to a desire to possess what one craves now and to possess it in defiance of all obligation to respect the rights and liberties of all other beings composing the universe of universes. Ethical obligations are innate, divine, and universal. What is also interesting to me at least is that the Divine Minister (Local Mother Spirit) made it as easy and even provided "unlimited opportunity" for sin expression as a means of curing it. Luckily or unluckily in our society there is ample opportunity for sin expression hahah. At least we have that part accomplished. 54:5.11.10. The Divine Minister of Salvington issued as her third independent proclamation a mandate directing that nothing be done to half cure, cowardly suppress, or otherwise hide the hideous visage of rebels and rebellion. The angelic hosts were directed to work for full disclosure and unlimited opportunity for sin-expression as the quickest technique of achieving the perfect and final cure of the plague of evil and sin.
  6. Physical war, slavery and communism actually as confusing as it is to our ideals and spiritual consciousness, really has nothing to do with the lucifer rebellion. In fact war, slavery and communism are indispensable to advancing civilization. They are necessary experiential roadblocks put there for us to overcome. It would "false liberty" to actually go to other tribal nations and try and "Liberate" them from their freedom to overcome these indispensables. As confusing as it is, barbaric countries have the right to war, dictatorship and slavery because they need to learn to overcome that stuff on their own. We can't short circuit time and force our own more advanced way of life on them. Its really not our battle to police the world, in fact it would be a sin to try and liberate these barbaric Nations from these indispensables. The irony is that we would be falling for a sophistry of the lucifer rebellion if we thought our job was to liberate all these other nations from their evolutional challenges that were put in place by deity. We should not attempt to short curcuit their evolution. That is the alure of sophistry, from a purely spiritual idealistic stand point it seems so tempting. Obviously we can still use war as a means of defence against these barbaric nations though. - (69:9.2) Primitive communism did not especially level men down, nor did it exalt mediocrity, but it did put a premium on inactivity and idleness, and it did stifle industry and destroy ambition. Communism was indispensable scaffolding in the growth of primitive society, but it gave way to the evolution of a higher social order because it ran counter to four strong human proclivities: 45 - (69:8.6) Slavery was an indispensable link in the chain of human civilization. It was the bridge over which society passed from chaos and indolence to order and civilized activities; it compelled backward and lazy peoples to work and thus provide wealth and leisure for the social advancement of their superiors. (70:2.9)War has served many valuable purposes in the past, it has been an indispensable scaffolding in the building of civilization, but it is rapidly becoming culturally bankrupt—incapable of producing dividends of social gain in any way commensurate with the terrible losses attendant upon its invocation. - (70:2.9)War has had a certain evolutionary and selective value, but like slavery, it must sometime be abandoned as civilization slowly advances.
  7. I think one of the benefits of the u.b is that we know we can be patient, and live as patient persons. If people knew that civilization evolves in due time I am sure that would help stop some of the desire for dramatic false liberation. They could realize that all the gifts they desire will come to them when the time is right. Jesus said "my time has not yet come" or something to that effect, he was the perfect example of a human who was in harmony with the Supreme. Of course our spiritual consciousness in and of itself is not aware of time it takes a cosmic approach to be able to perceive the flow of truth in time. A person who just thinks with ideals will want change now and right now.
  8. It is a movement that started in South America that seeks to Liberate people from all forms of "perceived injustice" whether it be social inequality/ bad social conditions, financial inequality/conditions, political inequality etc. Its really a similar sort of idea that Lucifer had, Lucifer wanted to "liberate" all the men and angels from perceived inequality, and he also wanted to liberate beings from going through the experiential process of overcoming their trials and tribulations. The similarities between the ideas of Liberation Theology and the Lucifer Rebellion is really interesting IMO. The advocates of Liberation Theology want to take away all the stimulating challenges that "perceived victims" face. Obviously it doesn't include all of Lucifer's ideas but I think its fascinating the ones that are there. The exact quote from wikipedia on Liberation Theology is that it seeks "liberation from unjust economic, political, or social conditions". The thing is that those "conditions" are part of the evolutionary indispensables that where put into plan by Deity, and are meant to be there so that we can experientially overcome them in time. Our angelic care-takers could intervene and make our world paradise and liberate us from all our challenges but that would be sin, that is one of the ideas that Lucifer put forward. This Liberation Theology like Lucifer completely ignore time. Its very a very inviting notion to want to be liberated RIGHT NOW, and not await the natural experiential flow of truth through time.
  9. @Alina in South America there is an example of people trying to take away all the experiential roadbumps away from other people, perhaps you are familiar with Liberation Theology?
  10. Alina: Could we fall into the void, without even realizing it?It seems to me that to know ourselves, (lower part of yo "egocentrism") to get degrees higher would be like " separate the tares (defects, errors) of the wheat (truth) " Our Spirit Thought Adjuster can not guide us if our hearts and minds are not "reasonably" harmonized,that is, within our current possibilities. Hey Alina, the path to Lucifer is open to all of us as well. We live on a sin stricken world (55:5.1) Mortal creatures living on a sin-stricken, evil-dominated, self-seeking, isolated world, such as Urantia So clearly there is a lot of sinning going on and on our planet we have the added benefit of having thought adjusters and the spirit of truth so we can really grab a hold of these same sophistries that lucifer did. I believe the authors give an example here in the paragraph below of just what they mean by self-assertion. It would seem that self-assertion in Lucifers case was really as simple as asserting his so called "liberty", but here is my take on this: Lucifer wanted to make a confederation, which is what will happen when we are in light and life (all systems will be equal and together in one confederation) right now we have federations and a heirarchy. He wanted all the benefits of light and life right now, he also believed that all beings are equal, and even all universes equal. He didn't believe in a hierarchy. He wanted every being to stand on equal footing and he wanted mortals to be allowed to forgo the evolutionary experience. Really he was like a fat kid in a candy store wanting all the treats at this very instant with no effort required. When all the Universes are settled in life and light, we will basically be at the point at which Lucifer craved. He really foolishly believed that his mind was just as divine as any of the other universe rulers haha, he thought that all beings could self-govern and be equal. This is why so many spiritual beings were attracted to his sophistry is because he took a truth such as what will happen at light and life and sought to "liberate" everyone to that point in an instant, and he even foolishly believed that his mind and other spiritual beings had innate divinity, he even thought beings like the ancient of days were his equal. The Ancient of Days in the u.b is described as the most powerful finite beings, they even over ride Michael in terms of authority, the fact that Lucifer actually thought he was equal to one of these beings just shows how delusional he was. That is just part of it though, obviously there is much more... (53:4.2)Self-assertion was the battle cry of the Lucifer rebellion. One of his chief arguments was that, if self-government was good and right for the Melchizedeks and other groups, it was equally good for all orders of intelligence. He was bold and persistent in the advocacy of the "equality of mind" and "the brotherhood of intelligence." He maintained that all government should be limited to the local planets and their voluntary confederation into the local systems. All other supervision he disallowed. He promised the Planetary Princes that they should rule the worlds as supreme executives. He denounced the location of legislative activities on the constellation headquarters and the conduct of judicial affairs on the universe capital. He contended that all these functions of government should be concentrated on the system capitals and proceeded to set up his own legislative assembly and organized his own tribunals under the jurisdiction of Satan. And he directed that the princes on the apostate worlds do the same. So the question is how is self-assertion sin? or "delibrate disloyalty to deity". The fact is that evolution is the right of every being in our universe. Obstacles are there because of the divine overcontrol of God, and in our universe God the sevenfold. Lucifer sought to take away the exciting adventure of evolving through experience. We see this on our world all the time, this is why we live on a sin stricken world. Liberty is one of the most dangerous things in the hands of an impatient and immature person. There are many countries who are evolving through the tribal state it would be a sin to attempt to take away their evolutional experience of evolving past this. This would be an attempt to "short-circuit" time and it would be "false-liberty". 54:1.3.Liberty is a self-destroying technique of cosmic existence when its motivation is unintelligent, unconditioned, and uncontrolled. True liberty is progressively related to reality and is ever regardful of social equity, cosmic fairness, universe fraternity, and divine obligations. 54:1.2.True liberty is the quest of the ages and the reward of evolutionary progress. False liberty is the subtle deception of the error of time and the evil of space. Enduring liberty is predicated on the reality of justice—intelligence, maturity, fraternity, and equity. The author mentions false liberty as the error of time and the evil of space. Evolution is creativity in time, Lucifer sought to short-circuit time for all beings therefore he was committing maximum disloyalty. Time and space is there for a reason, its through time and space that we connect to Deity. That is why if we attempt to short-circuit it we are being disloyal. (54:2.3) Lucifer's folly was the attempt to do the nondoable, to short-circuit time in an experiential universe. Lucifer's crime was the attempted creative disenfranchisement of every personality in Satania, the unrecognized abridgment of the creature's personal participation—freewill participation—in the long evolutionary struggle to attain the status of light and life both individually and collectively. In so doing this onetime Sovereign of your system set the temporal purpose of his own will directly athwart the eternal purpose of God's will as it is revealed in the bestowal of free will upon all personal creatures. The Lucifer rebellion thus threatened the maximum possible infringement of the freewill choice of the ascenders and servers of the system of Satania—a threat forevermore to deprive every one of these beings of the thrilling experience of contributing something personal and unique to the slowly erecting monument to experiential wisdom which will sometime exist as the perfected system of Satania. Thus does the Lucifer manifesto, masquerading in the habiliments of liberty, stand forth in the clear light of reason as a monumental threat to consummate the theft of personal liberty and to do it on a scale that has been approached only twice in all the history of Nebadon. Here are a couple more quotes regarding this topic. 118:7.4.Sin in time-conditioned space clearly proves the temporal liberty—even license—of the finite will. Sin depicts immaturity dazzled by the freedom of the relatively sovereign will of personality while failing to perceive the supreme obligations and duties of cosmic citizenship. 54:1.5.Unbridled self-will and unregulated self-expression equal unmitigated selfishness, the acme of ungodliness. Liberty without the associated and ever-increasing conquest of self is a figment of egoistic mortal imagination. Self-motivated liberty is a conceptual illusion, a cruel deception. License masquerading in the garments of liberty is the forerunner of abject bondage.
  11. There are also a large midway between spirit and matter. I don't think we could place spirit in an imaginary plane in any sense because spirit is substance, its not ether but a real literal substance. A Melchizedeck is a spiritual being, with a spiritual body and spirit consciousness that is very real. The word "material" is kind of a mysterious word IMO because even paradise is "material" there is still matter, and spiritual beings can still walk on matter. Even Paradise beings with spiritual bodies walk on matter.
  12. Hey BB yea this connection was made by Chris so was the Sumerian one I posted. Have you had a chance to listen to any of the symmetry of soul broadcasts?
  13. Yea its such a neat story, if we just substitute Adam for Adamson and Eve for Ratta it looks even better . They had it so close though. Interesting how stories can get passed down thousands of years while still having a large thread of truth.
  14. LOL I spelled Iceland wrong in the title of this thread, anyways here is an Icelandic Fairy Tale about how Elves came into being. There are a lot of similarities with this story and the actual story of secondary midwayers These "hidden people" are one of the more popular superstitious beliefs in Iceland. "Once upon a time, God Almighty came to visit Adam and Eve. They received him with joy, and showed him everything they had in the house. They also brought their children to him which he found promising and full of hope. Then He asked Eve whether she had no other children than these whom she had showed him. She said "None." But it so happened that she had not finished washing them all, and being ashamed to let God see them dirty, she had hidden the unwashed ones. Of course God knew, and there for said angrily to her, "What man hides from God, God will hide from man." These unwashed children became invisible, and later found a home in mounds, hills, and rocks. From these are the elves descended, but we men from those of Eve's children whom she had openly and frankly shown to God. And it is only by the will and desire of the elves themselves if humans can ever see them. The hidden people can be either friendly or hostile towards humans."
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