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Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Everything posted by Bradly aka/fanofVan

  1. Found it!! Miriam was 18 when she wed which does not answer the question on Mary, but.........
  2. Since Mary and Joseph enjoyed a "normal" courtship of two years and the household was very traditional in Jewish family and religious life, I wonder how old Miriam was when she married. Can't find her age compared to her eldest brother yet....but I'm looking. (1358.2) 123:2.5 There were few homes in the gentile world of those days that could give a child a better intellectual, moral, and religious training than the Jewish homes of Galilee. These Jews had a systematic program for rearing and educating their children. They divided a child’s life into seven stages: (1358.3) 123:2.6 1. The newborn child, the first to the eighth day. (1358.4) 123:2.7 2. The suckling child. (1358.5) 123:2.8 3. The weaned child. (1358.6) 123:2.9 4. The period of dependence on the mother, lasting up to the end of the fifth year. (1358.7) 123:2.10 5. The beginning independence of the child and, with sons, the father assuming responsibility for their education. (1358.8) 123:2.11 6. The adolescent youths and maidens. (1358.9) 123:2.12 7. The young men and the young women. Did maidens court? Or young women only in Jewish tradition? I doubt Mary or Miriam were allowed any nontraditional liberties with any man....or boy.
  3. Absonite - I trust you will maintain the thrust of your point here and not allow my tangents to distract, but I'd comment on a couple of issues here. First; my own experience as example (and your most recent post above) would suggest that many belief systems are the result of an elimination process and a rejection process complicating the package of "current" beliefs - similar to the vocabulary/context issue already discussed. It many cases it is the baby going out the window with the proverbial bath water, no? I mean to say that if the pope says this (or your preacher or your father) then it must be false since so much they said is false (truly and actually false). It is less an embrace of something found than it is a rejection of anything supported or endorsed by a particular person, position of authority, or institution that has been rejected first. A wise one once said, "Just because a fool says the earth is round....don't make it flat." Some come to believe that which is not disbelieved already and can become less an embrace of new truth and more like a game of musical chairs, with fewer and fewer choices to embrace. Next; as a child of fundamentalist christianity I was taught I can and should have a personal relationship with God (A Closer Walk With Thee - And He walks with me and He talks to me and tells me I am His own...) but I never encountered anything like the TA or God infusion of mind. Father was my source but He resided "up in heaven". So even such a one as I did not know, could not even fathom, that Father dwelt within....even Jesusonian christians know of soul but not TA. This is profoundly important and profoundly different, no? Next, as our Master illustrated for all to come after, it is not up to any to conflict with much if we are to gain traction or influence with any other. As Sister Alina has stated, we must begin such conversations in the ernest pursuit of commonalities and not differences. Especially so for us. Why? Because, as a child I was taught to not only fear for my own survival but I was responsible for the survival of others. When one is gripped by such fear from such beliefs, it is so hard to act without fear....unless replaced by superiority or ego assurance. This is a dreadful place to be and a valid reason for "rejection" of the "baby" in the bathwater. So, any presentation of Father to such a rejector is likely to be rejected as well....at least by many. Finally, the Revelation says that parenthood is a pattern example of the greater reality and that one's paternity pattern can open or shut the mind to our Heavenly Parents. If we do not have good human examples of fatherhood and motherhood, we will not be attracted by the Fatherhood, even if we embrace the brotherhood. And then there is the "apparent" sexism of the whole sexualized presentation of the bible and the UB - you know why I say apparent, yes? While the UB decries all forms of sexism and teaches the planet cannot and will not progress beyond a certain point for so long as it exists, there is a presentation of greater patterns within the lesser, mortal power of man over woman is a painful reality to get beyond for some. Certainly not all, or any who take time in-text to drill deeper into the issues. I'm married to a strong woman (and come from a long line of them too) who is a FEM activist but she has no problems with the reality and truths presented in our Revelation. I am very pleased to read your last statement and I concur: "And I have been increasingly learning that the most I can do beyond conversation is consistently to demonstrate how one can live and relate without joining them on the other side."
  4. A Thought to Ponder from The Urantia Book "Economic necessities tie man up with reality, and personal religious experience brings this same man face to face with the eternal realities of an ever-expanding and progressing cosmic citizenship." (1093.3) 99:7.5 Urantia Book Teachings "Now, mistake not, my Father will ever respond to the faintest flicker of faith." Jesus, The Urantia Book, (1733.5) 155:6.17
  5. Friend Melody says well and I think leads to other points of context for consideration: the New Age seeker (and I'll expand that definition here somewhat - all who have rejected institutionalized religions for another, more personal, and often more "radical" expression of spirit and spiritization over the past few centuries - the great rise of this New Age may have been 20th century but not its birth) has inherent and innate needs that want fulfillment. These include a "belonging" - while they are (and I was) fiercely independant in one way, they also yearn for fellowship, confirmation, and growth. And despite any pantheism "patterns" of thinking, they reject mechanical accident as the Source and Center and thirst for a personalized relationship with spirit, if not Diety. Now, one might ask (as MB suggests) "what" is the source of spirit? And cosmic unification and order? The "we are all one" belief that many such share is a step toward the Fatherhood of God through the Fellowship of Humanity. It seems they are half way there. They reject the accident of creation but do not yet embrace the personal creation...but do believe there is some"thing" greater than physics at work in the universe, eh? (Please forgive this generalization for many, myself included, did not reject Father as person when rejecting the institutions so many New Agers DO believe in a personal God too.) It is interesting to inquire as to the source of personality and love and the I AM within each mind, if not bestowed BY mind/personality itself. From whence comes this ME? Upon reflection, is it not interesting to consider that since Newton, Gutenberg, and Luther, there has been a growing individualization of religious experience and expression and this blossoming of New Age rejection of institutionalization exploding in the 20th century was intersected by the Revelation a half century before the world wide web? Here are all these religionists (whether they claim such or not) scattered, if you will, by the winds of the New Age and what have we now to bring them into fellowship with truth, beauty, goodness, purpose, and plan by Revelation, a shared text of terms, explainations, and demonstrations of the Cosmos. While we may each experience the truth uniquely and individually, I believe any New Ager would agree there is only one and can be only one unifying reality....just no one agrees what that is....but it does exist in mind to all.....they/we reject what we do not believe and we'd like to think our view is the clearest but the lack of agreement is itself disconcerting and so the search continues. May it lead some to the Revelation and all to Father.
  6. There is much truth in what you say. I would add that because many New Agers have rejected institutional religion (as I did), the very word religion can be easily misconstrued by such. For the Revelation does not define religion or religious experience by collective-practice or leadership or creed/dogma. Religion is personal or it is nothing at all. So, these brothers and sisters seeking meaning, values, and connections to spirit often resent and resist their quest and truth seeking as religious at all....spiritual, yes...religious no. But we know every effort to hear, find, or follow Father is indeed a religious experience....and this is true of those who follow a group, congragation, or institutional leadership in their personal religious experience AND those who reject that form and function AND UBers - all. Nigel and you point out this communication difficulty. Many are now saying they are not religious but they are spiritual in surveys of beliefs and affiliations. Like you, I don't think it difficult to "personalize" Father when this distinction is recognized and honored and the terms are shared in definition. Can one be spiritual and not religious? I used to think so but not anymore. Can one be religious and not be spiritual? A more interesting question, eh? What is the motive? What is intended by the self-defined "religious" who follows ceremony by rote to avoid damnation but remains surly, selfish, and with little regard for their fellows? To unify these two terms into a simple description of "seeking" connection to God and spirit individually and personally would build a solid bridge of unity I believe. It is my belief that ALL seekers seek that which we have described within the Revelation when once it is learned....so many truths already discovered in mind and by seeking and acting confirmed therein with everything "new" to mind easily integrated and contextualized from so many perspectives. Thank you Absonite. Looking forward to your work and your words.
  7. Is it not the thirst and the hunger that leads all to Him? May all who seek, find. No matter where and how they look for Him. (1570.5) 140:3.4 “Happy are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be filled. (1861.2) 170:2.20 Jesus taught that, by faith, the believer enters the kingdom now. In the various discourses he taught that two things are essential to faith-entrance into the kingdom: (1861.3) 170:2.21 1. Faith, sincerity. To come as a little child, to receive the bestowal of sonship as a gift; to submit to the doing of the Father’s will without questioning and in the full confidence and genuine trustfulness of the Father’s wisdom; to come into the kingdom free from prejudice and preconception; to be open-minded and teachable like an unspoiled child. (1861.4) 170:2.22 2. Truth hunger. The thirst for righteousness, a change of mind, the acquirement of the motive to be like God and to find God. (381.2) 34:6.8 It is the presence of the divine Spirit, the water of life, that prevents the consuming thirst of mortal discontent and that indescribable hunger of the unspiritualized human mind. Spirit-motivated beings “never thirst, for this spiritual water shall be in them a well of satisfaction springing up into life everlasting.” Such divinely watered souls are all but independent of material environment as regards the joys of living and the satisfactions of earthly existence. They are spiritually illuminated and refreshed, morally strengthened and endowed. (1119.5) 102:1.6 The indwelling Thought Adjuster unfailingly arouses in man’s soul a true and searching hunger for perfection together with a far-reaching curiosity which can be adequately satisfied only by communion with God, the divine source of that Adjuster. The hungry soul of man refuses to be satisfied with anything less than the personal realization of the living God. Whatever more God may be than a high and perfect moral personality, he cannot, in our hungry and finite concept, be anything less. (1133.2) 103:4.2 When primitive man felt that his communion with God had been interrupted, he resorted to sacrifice of some kind in an effort to make atonement, to restore friendly relationship. The hunger and thirst for righteousness leads to the discovery of truth, and truth augments ideals, and this creates new problems for the individual religionists, for our ideals tend to grow by geometrical progression, while our ability to live up to them is enhanced only by arithmetical progression.
  8. Absonite - I look forward to your "funnel" of similarities that are shared by the so-called new ageisms and feel you're off to a good start. Yes, the reality of religious experience is unique to each, even more so with the "mix and match" bunch who combine multiples of disciplines or philosophies, combining them in unique recipes. As you suggest, the differences do not eliminate the similarities, eh? For my part, I find it incredibly interesting how our world has changed its view since Gutenberg and the rise of so many branches of christianity over the past 3 centuries and Houdini and Sadler's time saw the New Age blossoming as people became more and more dissatisfied with any institutionalization of personal religion. I wonder about the effect of literacy and education as a driver of this. We used to "need" the priests and preachers and doctrines when we could not read, study, and find our own ways. This "individualization" of religious experience was set loose and grows still. Why? How? We are told the Spirit of Truth restates the gospel of Jesus to every generation in new and expanding ways relevant to that generation and the hypocracies and failures of our institutions, especially religious, keep encouraging this experimentation of practices individually and in smaller groups. Unfortunately for truth seekers, smaller is not always better regarding fraud, hypocracy, or well intended diversions which often disappoint. There is no easy way to change nor any way to change oneself that is both simple and supports our prejudices and preferences. Takes work. I am not familiar with most of the authors you cite but I am concerned that a book author is considered anything more than a dim reflection of any movements or affiliations of practice. What I do know about many such is that the person is elevated, as you said, and are designed to make the person feel better about themselves and find happiness for themselves. Not an unworthy venture but not truly religious in any sense. The self help gurus are not, in my mind, New Age practices for true truthseekers hoping to change their world and their priorities and practices and perspectives on the soul or Source and Center, are not satisfied with psychological education but seek transformation. Perhaps this could be a further refinement of your thread here. Which are transformative disciplines and which are undisciplined beliefs promising to feel better about ourself? And what's the difference in metaphysical butterflies and students of truth seeking? Maybe just time and action leading to unification of philosophy and faith results....regardless of the path taken? This is my belief....the path does not lead where the student will not go....but effort and intent bring results on every path?
  9. Yes, mysticism gets great cautionary admonishment but it does depend on the form and the focus. There are mystics who drug or starve themselves into the mystic state and there are those who get deep but not high....no Father connection and no real seeking of Him. But there are many benign, even helpful, forms of focus and noise elimination which can clear the mind in its pursuit of the higher and greater and Father too. I feel the Dali Lama has made great spiritual progress in mind and is not godless as some budhists are. My biggest obstacle is his reputed origin.....the being of one Dali reincarnates into the next one "found" as successor. So, I'm no Tibetan budhist for sure. But a wise mind finds truth under many rocks and in many words by many minds which are, like our own, unique perspectives which offer the opportunity for my mind or another to benefit thereby....if our prejudice in favor of our own perspective and context allows it. But the mind of a believer can touch divinity and hear Him without any special training or mystic states.....prayer, contemplation, worship, song, and many forms of approach pay dividends based on the investment made in them....time, practice, persistance, love. What a combination. Mysticism keeps more people from God I think than it delivers up to Him. Why? It's difficult. Takes lots of work and time. The impatient and foolish seek a pill or a guru to "make" them enlightened. I certainly did. The old man on the mountain laughed out loud when I approached to be touched on the forehead or something, seeking the magic key to holiness. "Well my son, living the material life is not easy....but it is infinitely easier than enlightenment. So, I'll see you here on Saturdays for work in the gardens. But go now and get a job and a home and a car and a life. Then return on Saturday and we will begin this journey together." I was so disappointed. I had just hitchiked across the dang country with little money but a mind full of Gurdjief, Zen, Tao, and Jesusonian - I mean I was READY for enlightenment dang it!!!! What a wonderful, if unappreciated, gift of straight talk....and he didn't ask for money! I was running away from life and all the hypocracy and lies and betrayal and blindness and meaness I had begun to recognize all around me as a teenager in the 60s. I wanted to put an ocean of truth in a half pint soul. I know the Reversionists watch that reel over and over, laughing their celestial behinds off....and yes, they're gonna make me watch it too. Someday. But it is already funny to me too. Anything, anything at all, that leads the mind away from the fears and fetters of the material, in pursuit of Father's truth, beauty, goodness, and love cannot be all bad or even all that bad, eh? But discipline, effort, thoughtfulness, discernment, faith, and service to others is not an easy path....or not at first. But eventually, you find the wind at your back, the path straight and level beneath the feet, the sun shining overhead, the birds sing, you humm along and whistle while you work, and you hear the children laugh in total confidence in their life and the love that comes to them every day. Enlightened innocense. Playful and poised in the adventure of the moment. What a life!! Now, while it is true that there are no facts or truths within the Revelation which are required knowledge for progress, let us not dismiss its value and power too quickly, eh? This map of our origin and destiny, this guide to the cosmos and our spirit/mind circuitry, and all the agents and agencies of Father working in coordination and cooperation for His purpose, plan, and potentialities is no small thing. It is a textbook of knowledge which can help seekers to add and eliminate concepts, to overcome misconception, and faulty practices and priorities, no? It will definitely accelerate spiritization of any devout student and truth seeker. But like the mystic told me....this ain't easy or quick. No pill to take and no magic fingers to the forehead. The UB should broaden our religious experience and make us eager to engage those other seekers looking for Father and within truth, beauty, and goodness.....regardless of where or how they seek Him. They each know something I do not or have a faith greater than my own with less knowledge than me. So much to learn.
  10. (600.3) 52:7.14 No matter what the special natural history of an individual planet may be, no difference whether a realm has been wholly loyal, tainted with evil, or cursed by sin — no matter what the antecedents may be — sooner or later the grace of God and the ministry of angels will usher in the day of the advent of the Trinity Teacher Sons; and their departure, following their final mission, will inaugurate this superb era of light and life. (600.4) 52:7.15 All the worlds of Satania can join in the hope of the one who wrote: “Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for a new heaven and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that you look for such things, be diligent that you may be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless.”
  11. Two of Sister Alina's primary points are: distinguishing differences may not attract those who are different if done in a critical or a superior way; and that there are few similarities in any New Age practitioners or students - as Nigel referenced above: " What if they came to share some kind of "vocabulary of concept" ? " So, not only is each religionist approaching the Greater from the lesser in their own way but there is no shared vocabulary of concepts therein. Been deep and long down this road and can testify to the dissimilarities of any and all New Age seekers. If you have a million catholics, how many religions are represented? Well, a million of course....and they do share concepts, terms, even beliefs and rituals, and yet, for every million religionists there are one million distinct religions and religious experiences. The challenge for every seeker is a unified and reasonable and consistant philosophy of living and growing....to be and to become by faith acts is as valid under any terms or descriptions... Having said that, I look forward to your efforts Absonite and learn by your perspective and voice.
  12. (591.3) 52:2.3 When the Planetary Prince arrives on a primitive world, the evolved religion of fear and ignorance prevails. The prince and his staff make the first revelations of higher truth and universe organization. These initial presentations of revealed religion are very simple, and they usually pertain to the affairs of the local system. Religion is wholly an evolutionary process prior to the arrival of the Planetary Prince. Subsequently, religion progresses by graduated revelation as well as by evolutionary growth. Each dispensation, each mortal epoch, receives an enlarged presentation of spiritual truth and religious ethics. The evolution of the religious capacity of receptivity in the inhabitants of a world largely determines their rate of spiritual advancement and the extent of religious revelation. (591.4) 52:2.4 This dispensation witnesses a spiritual dawn, and the different races and their various tribes tend to develop specialized systems of religious and philosophic thought. There uniformly run through all of these racial religions two strains: the early fears of primitive men and the later revelations of the Planetary Prince. In some respects Urantians do not seem to have wholly emerged from this stage of planetary evolution. As you pursue this study, you will the more clearly discern how far your world departs from the average course of evolutionary progress and development. (592.1) 52:2.8 During this age agriculture makes its appearance. The growth of the family idea is incompatible with the roving and unsettled life of the hunter. Gradually the practices of settled habitations and the cultivation of the soil become established. The domestication of animals and the development of home arts proceed apace. Upon reaching the apex of biologic evolution, a high level of civilization has been attained, but there is little development of a mechanical order; invention is the characteristic of the succeeding age. While we have not "wholly emerged", we have gained much ground in agriculture, transportation, communication, trade, engineering, mechanics, science, medicine, education, and monotheism, etc. that comes during and after the Prince's reign. Urantia "departs from the average course" and yet we progress by the ministries of our unseen friends. (593.5) 52:3.6 The result of the gift of the Adamic life plasm to the mortal races is an immediate upstepping of intellectual capacity and an acceleration of spiritual progress. There is usually some physical improvement also. On an average world the post-Adamic dispensation is an age of great invention, energy control, and mechanical development. This is the era of the appearance of multiform manufacture and the control of natural forces; it is the golden age of exploration and the final subduing of the planet. Much of the material progress of a world occurs during this time of the inauguration of the development of the physical sciences, just such an epoch as Urantia is now experiencing. Your world is a full dispensation and more behind the average planetary schedule. (594.1) 52:3.10 The post-Adamic epoch is the dispensation of internationalism. With the near completion of the task of race blending, nationalism wanes, and the brotherhood of man really begins to materialize. Representative government begins to take the place of the monarchial or paternal form of rulership. The educational system becomes world-wide, and gradually the languages of the races give way to the tongue of the violet people. Universal peace and co-operation are seldom attained until the races are fairly well blended, and until they speak a common language. (594.2) 52:3.11 During the closing centuries of the post-Adamic age there develops new interest in art, music, and literature, and this world-wide awakening is the signal for the appearance of a Magisterial Son. The crowning development of this era is the universal interest in intellectual realities, true philosophy. Religion becomes less nationalistic, becomes more and more a planetary affair. New revelations of truth characterize these ages, and the Most Highs of the constellations begin to rule in the affairs of men. Truth is revealed up to the administration of the constellations. (596.2) 52:5.4 The bestowal Son lives and dies for the spiritual uplift of the mortal races of a world. He establishes the “new and living way”; his life is an incarnation of Paradise truth in mortal flesh, that very truth — even the Spirit of Truth — in the knowledge of which men shall be free. Let us not feel too sorry for ourselves, eh? Read the timelines for epochs. The Prince = 500,000 years (and normally comes within a thousand of Andon and Fonta...but not here). Adam and Eve would still be here working on their one million birth goal....our dear Mother Eve. Don't know her gestation cycle but a million kids would take some time if they came 2-4 at a time, eh? (I think easily another 100,000 - 250,000 years) The Sons stay 25,000 to 50,000 years per mission. And there can be multiple ones. The post bestowal Son age lasts 10,000, - 100,000 years. So while we remain retarded and misguided in many important ways, the time line seems "normal" enough despite the hybridization of our upliftment. We are less than 500,000 years from the Prince's arrival today. I don't know if we might be ahead of anything progressively speaking but we are positioned for mighty evolutionary changes still underway. My glass remains "half full" - as did Amadon's and Van's. I am not expectant for me or mine but fully confident that the Most Highs rule in the kingdoms of humankind. Seems silly and evil to doubt them, no? Are we not Agondontors??!!!!
  13. On the Dali Lama - I suggest reading one of his many books on truth, beauty, and goodness (you may want to read another when done) and he is one of the most widely traveled, respected, and audienced people on the planet. He certainly transcends Tibet and he does support many teachings in our text. But I am no prosletyzer for him or any. I was only trying to illustrate that there are many who feel the same way.....love is what is needed most by all and we know its transformative power, yes? The morphing of capitalism - many emerging economies are changing capitalism and free markets in ways not dissimilar to how democracy is changing within the societies and cultures which begin to embrace it. It is not an American or European model and the word "free" is distorted even further than in the old capital structures. I do not think the institutions of government or commerce are getting any more or much more altruistic toward workers, customers, or the public in general. But the rising middle class and many in the high net worth class are redirecting or deploying more and more hours and supplies and cash and expertise to their favorite nonprofit service agencies and charities. So, yes I think there is evidence of the spiritization of capital "intent" by those who earned it, inherited it, won it, etc. I think this is an expression in its truest sense of the values found within truth, beauty, goodness and love motive. I am very encouraged by these trends and their collective impact. But money is amoral. It requires a person to act morally, even spiritually, with it. Is there not plenty of evidence of this? I predict nothing but change....I prefer the eating of sausage to watching it get made. This will not be glorious or gracious but difficult and filled with failures and setbacks. Sounds in-pattern for now. But we know things actually will get better don't we? And we know they have. And it is to this that Rick began this thread....evidence of peace to come.
  14. All I can say for sure is that consumerism and profits are in the midst of their most dynamic flux EVER right now. Things are changing rapidly. Actually they've been fundamentally changing for 2000 years.....there was a tiny middle class in Jesus time. But capitalists NEED consumers....even if they must invent them, like Henry Ford did when he doubled pay and shortened hours. He did NOT do this from altruism (hardly) but he had the vision to see buyers in his factories and across the land. Capitalists SUPPLY demand and they create the demand by feeding capital to the masses. Prior to Mr. Ford, the trades and the free farm elevated productivity and wealth for more and more but it was industrialization that moved the masses into the middle class. Now, the mechanization and digitization revolution is displacing the less educated and skilled, creating a real conundrum for capital - machines don't get sick or take any time off or go on strike or need benefits and pensions.....but they're really bad customers for selling and profiteering too! So, it is an interesting time to see how far this will go here - job displacement will reorganize economics profoundly. But that is the European, Japanese, and North American story. The most opportunities for change lie elsewhere. For 70% of the world's population is still in the 17th or 18th century where even mechanization and infrastructure are primitive. Suddenly though, they have Nikies and Sonys and cell phones and Disney!! Demand is booming globally and these new markets and younger, growing populations will certainly change much about what we know today about economics. Globalization has already resulted in central banking, trade organizations, currency exchanges, etc. and more and more jobs and profits in the Big 3 above are derived by export markets. This is bringing much greater cooperation between nations...for now....because my job and your job depends on peace AND prosperity of others. This is new....brand new. America never cared about what went on anywhere else because we were internally self sufficient. We needed materials and resources for sure....but we built our own stuff for our own population and it did not matter what other economies accomplished. Isolationism is DEAD. This change is also an accelerant, meaning progress will not be slow. It will not be painless and it will be ugly. And climate combined with population pressures will likely ignite some desperate wars in our future. But they will not be like the cold war between 2 giants who will kill everything and everybody by killing each other. So I think we passed mutual assured destruction, which is truly the beginning of this new era. When the Wall came down, the world changed again forever. So, yes I think capitalism is building a bridge from our past into our future. And it is morphing into a new form today. If we could but turn our swords into plowshares (or iphones), I believe the capitalists could create a better world for religionists to lead us forward. But war, greed, and stupid/selfish leaders still rule the world....and capitalism owns these too. I'll not see peace and propsperity in my lifetime but I have found it in my life and I share that with any and all as I pass by. My favorite religious leader today, the Dali Lama, says a time is coming, one soul and love act at a time, when there is more love than not and love will overwhelm power, swiftly, once we reach a point of critical mass. I think the UB teaches exactly the same thing.....but we've got a lot more help than some might think, eh?
  15. There is much evidence that many of the social progressions listed below are taking place today with a variety of success and failure. But self centered leadership is indeed an obstacle still. Leadership rises in crisis in ways it does not in prosperity....or it is replaced by its victims eventually. Believers are the leaven, as suggested by Raymond, but we are not acting alone and it would be error to doubt the power and the purposfulness of the ministering celestials bringing all manner of forces to bear. We look for the crocus in the snow and they are all around. Oh, there's a daffodil too. (597.3) 52:6.2 Even on normal evolutionary worlds the realization of the world-wide brotherhood of man is not an easy accomplishment. On a confused and disordered planet like Urantia such an achievement requires a much longer time and necessitates far greater effort. Unaided social evolution can hardly achieve such happy results on a spiritually isolated sphere. Religious revelation is essential to the realization of brotherhood on Urantia. While Jesus has shown the way to the immediate attainment of spiritual brotherhood, the realization of social brotherhood on your world depends much on the achievement of the following personal transformations and planetary adjustments: (597.4) 52:6.3 1. Social fraternity. Multiplication of international and interracial social contacts and fraternal associations through travel, commerce, and competitive play. Development of a common language and the multiplication of multilinguists. The racial and national interchange of students, teachers, industrialists, and religious philosophers. (597.5) 52:6.4 2. Intellectual cross-fertilization. Brotherhood is impossible on a world whose inhabitants are so primitive that they fail to recognize the folly of unmitigated selfishness. There must occur an exchange of national and racial literature. Each race must become familiar with the thought of all races; each nation must know the feelings of all nations. Ignorance breeds suspicion, and suspicion is incompatible with the essential attitude of sympathy and love. (597.6) 52:6.5 3. Ethical awakening. Only ethical consciousness can unmask the immorality of human intolerance and the sinfulness of fratricidal strife. Only a moral conscience can condemn the evils of national envy and racial jealousy. Only moral beings will ever seek for that spiritual insight which is essential to living the golden rule. (598.1) 52:6.6 4. Political wisdom. Emotional maturity is essential to self-control. Only emotional maturity will insure the substitution of international techniques of civilized adjudication for the barbarous arbitrament of war. Wise statesmen will sometime work for the welfare of humanity even while they strive to promote the interest of their national or racial groups. Selfish political sagacity is ultimately suicidal — destructive of all those enduring qualities which insure planetary group survival. (598.2) 52:6.7 5. Spiritual insight. The brotherhood of man is, after all, predicated on the recognition of the fatherhood of God. The quickest way to realize the brotherhood of man on Urantia is to effect the spiritual transformation of present-day humanity. The only technique for accelerating the natural trend of social evolution is that of applying spiritual pressure from above, thus augmenting moral insight while enhancing the soul capacity of every mortal to understand and love every other mortal. Mutual understanding and fraternal love are transcendent civilizers and mighty factors in the world-wide realization of the brotherhood of man.
  16. This old hippie grew up in the Age of Aquarius and there is little that is new about New Age truly. It is mostly a mixing up of various forms of Old Age practices. I think the beauty of this new age is the energy and quantity of truth seekers that sprang forth and are still springing forth in rejection of creed, dogma, and priests to embrace the individual experience of truth, beauty, and goodness. And it's a real mixed bag......transcendental meditation, zen and the Tao, Gurdjief and Ouspensky, Steven Gaskin, Baba Ram Das and other forms of western and eastern philosophies and practices , Sufi dancing, selling flowers in airports with shaved head and orange robes, combined with astrology and tarot and channeling to Kesey's Pranksters and Abbey's "drop out, tune in, and turn on"....mix in some pyramid hats and crystals, wine and weed.....and you've almost got it!! The psychodelic experience was not only recreational and it too is a big factor or was in the early days. The mystics were earnest in their/our experimentation in mind....to escape the chaos and to embrace change. But, I think we'll find that for too many "practitioners", there is an impatience and a big ME in the middle of this....most new agers I have known are like butterflies, they don't stick to any particular flower too long. Or, perhaps, like me, they gather the nectar of truth from each flower and grow thereby to better recognize truth wherever it may be and their search will lead them to TA and Spirit and a love of truth, beauty, and goodness......maybe even a big blue book will land in their lap, eh? Wikipedia: The New Age movement is a Western spiritual movement that developed in the second half of the 20th century. Its central precepts have been described as "drawing on both Eastern and Western spiritual and metaphysical traditions and infusing them with influences from self-help and motivational psychology, holistic health, parapsychology, consciousness research and quantum physics".[2] It aims to create "a spirituality without borders or confining dogmas" that is inclusive and pluralistic.[3] It holds to "a holistic worldview",[4] emphasising that the Mind, Body and Spirit are interrelated[1] and that there is a form of monism and unity throughout the universe.[5] It attempts to create "a worldview that includes both science and spirituality"[6] and embraces a number of forms of mainstream science as well as other forms of science that are considered fringe. The origins of the movement can be found in Medieval astrology and alchemy, such as the writings of Paracelsus, in Renaissance interests in Hermeticism, in 18th century mysticism, such as that of Emanuel Swedenborg, and in beliefs in animal magnetism espoused by Franz Mesmer. In the 19th and early 20th centuries, authors such as Godfrey Higgins and the esotericists Eliphas Levi, Helena Blavatsky, and George Gurdjieff articulated specific histories, cosmologies, and some of the basic philosophical principles that would influence the movement. It experienced a revival as a result of the work of individuals such as Alice Bailey and organizations such as the Theosophical Society. It gained further momentum in the 1960s, taking influence from metaphysics, perennial philosophy, self-help psychology, and the various Indian gurus who visited the West during that decade.[7] In the 1970s, it developed a social and political component.[8] The New Age movement includes elements of older spiritual and religious traditions ranging from monotheism through classical pantheism, naturalistic pantheism, pandeism, panentheism, and polytheism combined with science and Gaia philosophy; particularly archaeoastronomy, astronomy, ecology, environmentalism, the Gaia hypothesis, UFO religions, psychology, and physics. New Age practices and philosophies sometimes draw inspiration from major world religions: Buddhism, Taoism, Chinese folk religion, Christianity, Hinduism, Sufism, Judaism (especially Kabbalah), Sikhism; with strong influences from East Asian religions, Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Neopaganism, New Thought, Spiritualism, Theosophy, Universalism and Western esotericism.[9] The term New Age refers to the coming astrological Age of Aquarius.[
  17. (198.6) 17:1.6 On the executive sphere of the seventh superuniverse the staff engaged in keeping straight the affairs of Orvonton runs into numbers beyond human comprehension and embraces practically every order of celestial intelligence. All superuniverse services of personality dispatch (except Inspired Trinity Spirits and Thought Adjusters) pass through one of these seven executive worlds on their universe journeys to and from Paradise, and here are maintained the central registries for all personalities created by the Third Source and Center who function in the superuniverses. The system of material, morontial, and spiritual records on one of these executive worlds of the Spirit amazes even a being of my order. (201.4) 17:3.6 The formal records of the universes are passed up by and through the angelic recorders, but the true spiritual records are assembled by reflectivity and are preserved in the minds of suitable and appropriate personalities belonging to the family of the Infinite Spirit. These are the live records in contrast with the formal and dead records of the universe, and they are perfectly preserved in the living minds of the recording personalities of the Infinite Spirit. (436.2) 39:4.16 6. The Recorders. These seraphim are the keepers of the threefold records of the local systems. The temple of records on a system capital is a unique structure, one third material, constructed of luminous metals and crystals; one third morontial, fabricated of the liaison of spiritual and material energy but beyond the range of mortal vision; and one third spiritual. The recorders of this order preside over and maintain this threefold system of records. Ascending mortals will at first consult the material archives, Material Sons and the higher transition beings consult those of the morontia halls, while seraphim and the higher spirit personalities of the realm peruse the records of the spirit section. (409.4) 37:3.7 The Worlds of the Archangels. The seventh group of the encircling Salvington worlds, with their associated satellites, is assigned to the archangels. Sphere number one and all of its six tributary satellites are occupied by the personality record keepers. This enormous corps of recorders busy themselves with keeping straight the record of each mortal of time from the moment of birth up through the universe career until such an individual either leaves Salvington for the superuniverse regime or is “blotted out of recorded existence” by the mandate of the Ancients of Days. (409.5) 37:3.8 It is on these worlds that personality records and identification sureties are classified, filed, and preserved during that time which intervenes between mortal death and the hour of repersonalization, the resurrection from death. (248.5) 22:5.6 The Trinitized Custodians start out their careers as custodians, and they continue as such in the affairs of the supergovernments. In a way, they are officers of their superuniverse governments, but they do not deal with individuals, as do the Celestial Guardians. The Trinitized Custodians administer group affairs and foster collective projects. They are the custodians of records, plans, and institutions; they act as the trustees of undertakings, personality groups, ascendant projects, morontia plans, universe projections, and innumerable other enterprises. (431.3) 39:2.14 6. The Recorders. These personalities are especially concerned with the reception, filing, and redispatch of the records of Salvington and its associated worlds. They also serve as special recorders for resident groups of superuniverse and higher personalities and as clerks of the courts of Salvington and secretaries to the rulers thereof. (431.4) 39:2.15 Broadcasters — receivers and dispatchers — are a specialized subdivision of the seraphic recorders, being concerned with the dispatch of records and with the dissemination of essential information. Their work is of a high order, being so multicircuited that 144,000 messages can simultaneously traverse the same lines of energy.
  18. I must also admit confusion here...no longer about the fate of pre-Adjuster children - but of the records which appear to conflict (although it is only an appearance and only to some, eh?). I am researching "records - recorders - status - rolls" to identify how many ways by how many agencies are such details of both the individual and the universe that are so recorded. It appears there are material and spiritual records with actual beings acting in the more spiritual realms and morontia records more in the time and space levels. There's much going on and much to record at every level of universe activity - whether source or response - and it appears all celestials, including TAs, are subject to performance "reviews". This descending and ascending and creating is an experiential perfecting - filled with experimentation, free will, superior and inferior, progress, surprises, etc. There are many mortal and morontial achievements or spirit progress and my belief is that there are many records held by many recorders and keepers of records for multiple purposes. I feel that Scott's primary point has nothing to do with children in the nurseries but, rather, has to do with spiritual progress and its measurement by the mortal in our morontial progression. Scott's generous expectation of survival is a notable ingredient in this....he has not said Father is cruel or unfair or uncaring in His ministries nor that any are deprived of His love and tender mercy. I feel like I've been chewing on the wrong bone in this whole thing. Perhaps we could explore this recording topic a little further? In light of the topic of A Purely Spiritual Experience for it is well documented by many....forever. (281.2) 25:5.1 From among the tertiary supernaphim in Havona, certain of the senior chief recorders are chosen as Custodians of Records, as keepers of the formal archives of the Isle of Light, those archives which stand in contrast to the living records of registry in the minds of the custodians of knowledge, sometimes designated the “living library of Paradise.” (281.3) 25:5.2 The recording angels of the inhabited planets are the source of all individual records. Throughout the universes other recorders function regarding both formal records and living records. From Urantia to Paradise, both recordings are encountered: in a local universe, more of the written records and less of the living; on Paradise, more of the living and less of the formal; on Uversa, both are equally available. (281.4) 25:5.3 Every occurrence of significance in the organized and inhabited creation is a matter of record. (281.7) 25:6.2 As the recorders advance in universe service, they continue their system of dual recording, thus making their records always available to all classes of beings, from those of the material order to the high spirits of light. In your transition experience, as you ascend from this material world, you will always be able to consult the records of, and to be otherwise conversant with, the history and traditions of your status sphere.
  19. I invite everyone to read Paper 52- Planetary Mortal Epochs and reflect on the many signs of progression we share today therein....while the text says we are "out of step", this does not mean we ain't dancing too!! This paper describes or illustrates how Father makes lemonade out of every lemon as Urantia has managed many progressions on normal planets but without many forms of normal leadership and yet by compensatory agents and acts to keep us on the dance floor. I thought we might work through each mortal epoch described and identify some of the ways Urantia has progressed through these epochs into this very hybrid planetary upliftment ministry. We have skipped and distorted many steps to be sure but the Revelation has moments where the authors seem rather awed themselves by Urantia's march into Light and Life to come. We are admonished to view today, history, and our future through the lense of the cosmic citizen residing in a loving universe of relentless inevitabilities within the limitlessness of potentials of truth, beauty, and goodness. 6. Urantia’s Post-Bestowal Age (597.2) 52:6.1 The bestowal Son is the Prince of Peace. He arrives with the message, “Peace on earth and good will among men.” On normal worlds this is a dispensation of world-wide peace; the nations no more learn war. But such salutary influences did not attend the coming of your bestowal Son, Christ Michael. Urantia is not proceeding in the normal order. Your world is out of step in the planetary procession. Your Master, when on earth, warned his disciples that his advent would not bring the usual reign of peace on Urantia. He distinctly told them that there would be “wars and rumors of wars,” and that nation would rise against nation. At another time he said, “Think not that I have come to bring peace upon earth.” (589.13) 52:1.4 In the light of subsequent civilization, this era of primitive man is a long, dark, and bloody chapter. The ethics of the jungle and the morals of the primeval forests are not in keeping with the standards of later dispensations of revealed religion and higher spiritual development. On normal and nonexperimental worlds this epoch is very different from the prolonged and extraordinarily brutal struggles which characterized this age on Urantia. When you have emerged from your first world experience, you will begin to see why this long and painful struggle on the evolutionary worlds occurs, and as you go forward in the Paradise path, you will increasingly understand the wisdom of these apparently strange doings. But notwithstanding all the vicissitudes of the early ages of human emergence, the performances of primitive man represent a splendid, even a heroic, chapter in the annals of an evolutionary world of time and space. (591.5) 52:2.5 But the Planetary Prince is not “the Prince of Peace.” Racial struggles and tribal wars continue over into this dispensation but with diminishing frequency and severity. This is the great age of racial dispersion, and it culminates in a period of intense nationalism. Color is the basis of tribal and national groupings, and the different races often develop separate languages. Each expanding group of mortals tends to seek isolation. This segregation is favored by the existence of many languages. Before the unification of the several races their relentless warfare sometimes results in the obliteration of whole peoples; the orange and green men are particularly subject to such extinction. (591.6) 52:2.6 On average worlds, during the latter part of the prince’s rule, national life begins to replace tribal organization or rather to be superimposed upon the existing tribal groupings. But the great social achievement of the prince’s epoch is the emergence of family life. Heretofore, human relationships have been chiefly tribal; now, the home begins to materialize. (595.6) 52:5.1 When a certain standard of intellectual and spiritual development is attained on an inhabited world, a Paradise bestowal Son always arrives. On normal worlds he does not appear in the flesh until the races have ascended to the highest levels of intellectual development and ethical attainment. But on Urantia the bestowal Son, even your own Creator Son, appeared at the close of the Adamic dispensation, but that is not the usual order of events on the worlds of space. (595.7) 52:5.2 When the worlds have become ripe for spiritualization, the bestowal Son arrives. These Sons always belong to the Magisterial or Avonal order except in that case, once in each local universe, when the Creator Son prepares for his terminal bestowal on some evolutionary world, as occurred when Michael of Nebadon appeared on Urantia to bestow himself upon your mortal races. Only one world in near ten million can enjoy such a gift; all other worlds are spiritually advanced by the bestowal of a Paradise Son of the Avonal order. When in doubt....keep dancing!!
  20. Hey Bonita - I've never read or listened to Chris H. so that's not it. I think I just misremembered the quote on the Mansion World (thanks menno for sharing): (532.3) 47:2.5 The Adjuster-indwelt children and youths on the finaliter world are also reared in families of five, ranging in ages from six to fourteen; approximately, these families consist of children whose ages are six, eight, ten, twelve, and fourteen. Any time after sixteen, if final choice has been made, they translate to the first mansion world and begin their Paradise ascent. Some make a choice before this age and go on to the ascension spheres, but very few children under sixteen years of age, as reckoned by Urantia standards, will be found on the mansion worlds. Yes, I confirmed an earlier correction you made to me by my misapplication of ascender and just read (somewhere dang it) that we aren't considered pilgrims until some specific time, perhaps the commitment moment? I'll be a long way up the pilgrim/ascender's trail before I am knowledgeable enough to teach you anything Sister. Until then, I'm happy if I can make you chuckle once in awhile.
  21. (1118.2) 102:0.2 But such is not man’s end and eternal destiny; such a vision is but the cry of despair uttered by some wandering soul who has become lost in spiritual darkness, and who bravely struggles on in the face of the mechanistic sophistries of a material philosophy, blinded by the confusion and distortion of a complex learning. And all this doom of darkness and all this destiny of despair are forever dispelled by one brave stretch of faith on the part of the most humble and unlearned of God’s children on earth. (1118.3) 102:0.3 This saving faith has its birth in the human heart when the moral consciousness of man realizes that human values may be translated in mortal experience from the material to the spiritual, from the human to the divine, from time to eternity. (1119.4) 102:1.5 God is so all real and absolute that no material sign of proof or no demonstration of so-called miracle may be offered in testimony of his reality. Always will we know him because we trust him, and our belief in him is wholly based on our personal participation in the divine manifestations of his infinite reality. (1119.5) 102:1.6 The indwelling Thought Adjuster unfailingly arouses in man’s soul a true and searching hunger for perfection together with a far-reaching curiosity which can be adequately satisfied only by communion with God, the divine source of that Adjuster. The hungry soul of man refuses to be satisfied with anything less than the personal realization of the living God. Whatever more God may be than a high and perfect moral personality, he cannot, in our hungry and finite concept, be anything less. <a name="U102_2_0"> 2. Religion and Reality (1119.6) 102:2.1 Observing minds and discriminating souls know religion when they find it in the lives of their fellows. Religion requires no definition; we all know its social, intellectual, moral, and spiritual fruits. And this all grows out of the fact that religion is the property of the human race; it is not a child of culture. True, one’s perception of religion is still human and therefore subject to the bondage of ignorance, the slavery of superstition, the deceptions of sophistication, and the delusions of false philosophy. (1123.3) 102:4.3 Man very early becomes conscious that he is not alone in the world or the universe. There develops a natural spontaneous self-consciousness of other-mindness in the environment of selfhood. Faith translates this natural experience into religion, the recognition of God as the reality — source, nature, and destiny — of other-mindness. But such a knowledge of God is ever and always a reality of personal experience. If God were not a personality, he could not become a living part of the real religious experience of a human personality.
  22. Oh Bonita....of course you are right on the jubilees! My memory used to be so clear....I must verify now prior to posting. Apologies. Now, on the mindal moments as I call them....the reception of TA, the response in mind, the commitment in mind.....and on to fusion. The first jubilee, as per your correction and the quote, is the commitment moment which I think happens far earlier than the third circle, guardian attachment. Are not many committed to love, Father, His Way, and personal progress in spirit far before the third circle? I'm committed. You're committed. Who on here is not committed? This is but another beginning in my mind and I think it MAY be that moment of being born in the spirit? Now, how much progress can be made prior to such a commitment moment? And doesn't this moment unleash forces awaiting cooperation by mortal mind? And can we not be so committed prior to knowledge of facts, circuits, helpers, process, etc.? I think so. But the third circle and fusion are way down the road for most, and in mansonia probably. I am attempting to "map" the sequence and the changes in the stages of spirit progress/religious experience. And these include circles and awareness of the voice and response to the voice and commitment to the voice and being born in the spirit and then there is the reborn thing (I really didn't need that one!!??) I'm researching the 16 yr. old thing. Don't know where I read it and I now lack memory confidence but it seems it relates to the normal age of commitment.....can't find as of yet. Glad to hear you laugh. We do a lot of that in my family, my wife's, and ours....it's what some do who stare down the wolf at the door over enough generations of believers....we laugh at fear and hold onto Father's hand.
  23. A Thought to Ponder from The Urantia Book "Religion eventually achieves the profoundly simple realization of an all-powerful love, the love which sweeps irresistibly through the human soul when awakened to the conception of the limitless affection of the Universal Father for the sons of the universe." (986.3) 90:0.3 "The real universe is friendly to every child of the eternal God." The Urantia Book, (1477.3) 133:5.8 And every child born is given personality and encircuited by Him in this friendly universe of love and mercy ministry, no?
  24. Now, everyone here knows I am no circle-counter, so do not misunderstand but my wife and I are taking a UBIS class and the 7 circles are in our reading. I have previously listed what I call momentous mindal moments of progress - the birth of soul, or outer/first/seventh circle (first in experience, seventh in relative position to first circle) is our first, the second is the stirring response or hearing the whisper of the small still voice (responsiveness), and the third moment is commitment - usually around age 16 on a "normal" world. I am wondering if the Revelation relates the commitment moment to a circle? Perhaps this moves the soul from its first circle (the seventh) into the second/next (sixth circle). Fusion is, of course, another such moment in mind and there are other momentous mindal moments within our progress but these are critical advancements in spirit/morontia mind. The soul obviously has spirit progress and content regardless of the awareness of such or the commitment moment (indeed, I think there are far too many that never become disentangled enough from the material fetters to focus mind sufficiently to acknowledge or pursue Father in mind on Urantia at this time). But this momentous moment propels the individual mind into the hands of all the circuits and agents of progress which should activate awareness, purpose, will, and desire to know love and its source. And is this momentous moment #3 the being born in the spirit moment? Just read that TA infusion is our first personal jubilee and the third circle is our second jubilee. So there is much progress between these jubilees, eh? (Third jubilee is fusion.) So, we enter the seventh circle at TA arrival and progress through the sixth, fifth, and fourth before the next jubilee, therefor, being born in the spirit and the commitment moment occur in 6, 5, or 4 - whether they are simulteaneous or not is another issue. My wife is getting to be a big fan of yours Bonita....but it is unlikely she will join in.....she thinks correcting one knucklehead is plenty to keep her entertained!! She is quite well read and knowledgeable but tends to be unconcerned about that which seems to concern others so much. I also tend to focus most on that which concerns my understanding of the progression path and our destiny and balancing the material and spiritual into a functional philosophy, actionable priorities, the cosmic citizen and time unit perspective, and personal behaviour patterns in-response to every relationship, seeking discernment and awareness in my daily walk. The Revelation could be half as big and we'd be just as certain and just as focused. But, the same is probably true for all and we would each choose our favorite "half" differently, making all of it important, relevant, and inspiring to all. And, as big as it is, it does not, perhaps could not, answer every question raised by every mind. Imagine the forumites getting to ask questions!! While speculation is a valid exercise, conclusions based only on inference or the unstated or even what is written but read in isolation or without proper context are in error. Interpretation has inherent weakness and can lead to entrenchment or prejudice and further, can alter perceptions of other, related, issues. Or so it seems to me. And I agree....we could use more balance by the female perspective and proprieties of the gentler, nurturing species. Enjoy all you ladies here, especially Alina, Meredith, Carolyn, and Bonita. The most accurate perspective is that triangulation space that lies between the masculine and the feminine point of view. If harmonized and utilized by both minds, greater progress and far greater results come thereby. We must learn how to do this to progress very far at all IMO.
  25. OK, I'm gonna step into it here and proffer an opinion. First, it is my hope that we can get back to the original topic with an emphasis on personality arrival, functionality, and differences between before TA and after. Fascinating. But my primary purpose is to agree with Scott on the infant's nonsurvival....I have always been so convinced myself. Until now. My wife is aghast that I read such into the text and, like Bonita, said "prove it"...(we do that a lot...it's like a study group thread....state a declarative....and then prove it in text). Scott, I have been and you are wrong on this one. Now, it does not say what exactly does happen to be sure (don't you wish they had shared two million words instead of but one), but the text does NOT specify the fate of such infants. Given the nature of mercy and the importance of potential, it seems more reasonable and logical that these precious ones are not lost to Father, the Creator Son, the Mother Spirit, or the TA. The text simply does not clearly answer all the mysteries but as my dear granny always told me, "Sonny boy, there is much that Father will reveal to us in His time and in His way. Worry not and trust Him." A wise woman. And as Forrest Gump said so eloquently (4 times)...."and that's all I've got to say about that." Learning much by the arguement and discussion. Perhaps there is a way forward from here.....?
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