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Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Everything posted by Bradly aka/fanofVan

  1. Well Scott, let me (finally) disagree with you as well. Uplifting the 5th Epochal Revelation gifted to us here and now and personally and globally, makes the learning and the teaching and the sharing of its contents, meanings, applications, and results SERVICE. Loving, selfless, outward focused, tender, kind service. And those who make the time and commitment to teach me are REVERED by me and loved by me for their endless service. Do you not think those who have committed a decade of their life to make this site a reality a service to Father and His children?? How many souls have found a nurturing encouragement here? How much time do you think Bro Rick spends a day on OPAD and the TB&G, etc.? Every day for year after year. What an example of supreme devotion to others and the work of our Father. He is hardly alone. Does anyone know how many souls work how many hours every day of every year to bring the Revelation to its audience and do so sweetly, fraternally, expertly, with scholarship and comraderie?? I've been around awhile in many venues, including many UB venues and groups and efforts. This site and these folk are a bright beacon of light on a high hill. We cannot judge what path and task Father puts before any other. We each have our own way and contribution. I'm but a grunt in the foxhole or the man with shovel standing in ditch. We are called to build the Garden and the Temple to come. I wonder if we understand the foundation building and canal digging and work to come so we can see the work at hand to do now?? There are those who give books, or host study groups, or organize conferences, or write articles, or make beautiful artwork, or...or....or....or.....or....or. It is unbecoming to any believer to criticize another for their what, when, how, why, who of personal love and service. Pardon my irritation as it is certainly not triggered by you or anything you've said but I do disagree that there is not relationship here or service here as Jesus would describe it. Poppycock. But I do love your ink blot metaphor....for it is by this triangulation of perspective that I have learned far more here in the past year than decades before. Love you dude....hope you take this as friendly disagreement for it is nothing more than that.
  2. Well Howard, you are welcome to follow your own path and have your own opinion. But allow me a different opinion if you will. Those who do not teach do not learn as the Revelation clearly states and one who does not teach does not progress. Teaching is critical to learning. Your critical dismissal of the teachers here, the format provided here, and the audience itself is misplaced and judgemental and incorrect....all. You can only determine what's best for you Brother and not any other. We cannot control who approaches the Revelation or how or why but the WWW has provided a new form of distribution of the text AND connectivity between students around the globe in powerful and effective ways unknowable or seeable by us in this life. Let us remember that The Most Highs rule in the kingdom of mortals and the angels and midwayers attend to us relentlessly and effectively. Why such despair? And why such demeaning sexism? Many who post here are homemakers and parents and children of the elderly but are also well trained and engaged professionals and community activists. Is laundry and cleaning the limit of service or importance or value or impact? I find your whole post demeaning and without merit for any worthy consideration. Just my opinion.
  3. Nelson asked: "What would you think if I were to extend my question beyond an individual world that is settled in light and life to a local universe, a super universe or better yet, the entire grand universe? Could a grand universe, settled in light and life have exhausted all possible experience?" Hey Nelson - I don't think there will ever be an end to creationism or experiential growth into potentiality. The finaliter adventure to come will also be in a time and space universe so the adventure continues. A couple of quotes on the question: (353.7) 31:10.11 We venture the forecast of future and greater outer universes of inhabited worlds, new spheres peopled with new orders of exquisite and unique beings, a material universe sublime in its ultimacy, a vast creation lacking in only one important detail — the presence of actual finite experience in the universal life of ascendant existence. Such a universe will come into being under a tremendous experiential handicap: the deprivation of participation in the evolution of the Almighty Supreme. These outer universes will all enjoy the matchless ministry and supernal overcontrol of the Supreme Being, but the very fact of his active presence precludes their participation in the actualization of the Supreme Deity. (353.8) 31:10.12 During the present universe age the evolving personalities of the grand universe suffer many difficulties due to the incomplete actualization of the sovereignty of God the Supreme, but we are all sharing the unique experience of his evolution. We evolve in him and he evolves in us. Sometime in the eternal future the evolution of Supreme Deity will become a completed fact of universe history, and the opportunity to participate in this wonderful experience will have passed from the stage of cosmic action. (353.9) 31:10.13 But those of us who have acquired this unique experience during the youth of the universe will treasure it throughout all future eternity. And many of us speculate that it may be the mission of the gradually accumulating reserves of the ascendant and perfected mortals of the Corps of the Finality, in association with the other six similarly recruiting corps, to administer these outer universes in an effort to compensate their experiential deficiencies in not having participated in the time-space evolution of the Supreme Being. (201.9) 17:3.11 On the headquarters of each superuniverse the reflective organization acts as a segregated unit; but on certain special occasions, under the direction of Majeston, all seven may and do act in universal unison, as in the event of the jubilee occasioned by the settling of an entire local universe in light and life and at the times of the millennial greetings of the Seven Supreme Executives. (642.5) 56:7.5 Each new evolutionary attainment within a sector of creation, as well as every new invasion of space by divinity manifestations, is attended by simultaneous expansions of Deity functional-revelation within the then existing and previously organized units of all creation. This new invasion of the administrative work of the universes and their component units may not always appear to be executed exactly in accordance with the technique herewith outlined because it is the practice to send forth advance groups of administrators to prepare the way for the subsequent and successive eras of new administrative overcontrol. Even God the Ultimate foreshadows his transcendental overcontrol of the universes during the later stages of a local universe settled in light and life. (642.6) 56:7.6 It is a fact that, as the creations of time and space are progressively settled in evolutionary status, there is observed a new and fuller functioning of God the Supreme concomitant with a corresponding withdrawing of the first three manifestations of God the Sevenfold. If and when the grand universe becomes settled in light and life, what then will be the future function of the Creator-Creative manifestations of God the Sevenfold if God the Supreme assumes direct control of these creations of time and space? Are these organizers and pioneers of the time-space universes to be liberated for similar activities in outer space? We do not know, but we speculate much concerning these and related matters. (643.1) 56:7.7 As the frontiers of experiential Deity are extended out into the domains of the Unqualified Absolute, we envision the activity of God the Sevenfold during the earlier evolutionary epochs of these creations of the future. We are not all in agreement respecting the future status of the Ancients of Days and the superuniverse Master Spirits. Neither do we know whether or not the Supreme Being will therein function as in the seven superuniverses. But we all conjecture that the Michaels, the Creator Sons, are destined to function in these outer universes. Some hold that the future ages will witness some closer form of union between the associated Creator Sons and Divine Ministers; it is even possible that such a creator union might eventuate in some new expression of associate-creator identity of an ultimate nature. But we really know nothing about these possibilities of the unrevealed future. (643.2) 56:7.8 We do know, however, that in the universes of time and space, God the Sevenfold provides a progressive approach to the Universal Father, and that this evolutionary approach is experientially unified in God the Supreme. We might conjecture that such a plan must prevail in the outer universes; on the other hand,the new orders of beings that may sometime inhabit these universes may be able to approach Deity on ultimate levels and by absonite techniques. In short, we have not the slightest concept of what technique of deity approach may become operative in the future universes of outer space. * (643.3) 56:7.9 Nevertheless, we deem that the perfected superuniverses will in some way become a part of the Paradise-ascension careers of those beings who may inhabit these outer creations. It is quite possible that in that future age we may witness outer-spacers approaching Havona through the seven superuniverses, administered by God the Supreme with or without the collaboration of the Seven Master Spirits. <a name="U56_8_0"> Sounds like the fun will never stop Nelson!!!!
  4. Welcome Sister Truthfinder!! The teacher appears when the student is ready!! Many here know your story well....for it is ours too. The truth hunger and thirst for righteousness is a powerful motivator. My wife and I love taking classes together through the Foundation/UAI. There's a link on the home page here. And, if you haven't heard, this site is about to change formats. Great timing for you!! But get busy with old topics here. Been here about a year and there is much truth to devour. Best wishes and good tidings to you and yours. We are a class of delighted children playing together and learning better our Father and His Way. Your excitement will only grow....and be well rewarded. What a delightful introduction. Thanks for sharing....and sharing your caring with us. Peace Sister.
  5. The answer to your question lies within the quote: " Realization of sonship is incompatible with the desire to sin. Kingdom believers hunger for righteousness and thirst for divine perfection." It is truly nothing more than alignment of mortal/material mind with spirit. Not an understanding or knowledge of facts or of oneself, but a sincere motive and the intention of abiding in the Way and Will of God. Sincerety of heart is not to be mistaken by Father and is always rewarded or acknowledged with progress in the spirit. One need not find sin nor sorrow greatly to repent from prior misconduct for the true heart will abandon sin like a burning building. If we experience the resulting choices of the free will combined with such a true heart, we can more easily and readily find our errors of tactic and strategy in our choosing and the mind can better discern meanings and values in the relationships and pattern intersections of the day. And we will more efficiently eliminate the anxieties and other mind poisens which cloud our perspective and notice the fruits which inevitably come by such a place in mind by such a soul. Jesus also taught us that sufficient unto the day is the trouble therein so it is foolish to lament the past or worry about the future as such worry just clouds the day's journey at hand. And He taught us to do right for right's sake....and not from any fear of loss or punishment. And also, that while men must judge men by their acts, Father measures and knows men by their intent and their heart. Sincere and goodly intentions will lead away from sin and bring light onto the shadows on the errors/evil of doubt, confusion, and new challenges to come. I learned a long time ago something that Sister Alina referenced herein; if you are now at a place in life and mind that you find fragrent and fruitful, then it is foolish to lament or regret the past, as it is but the path to where we are now. And that path, every path, of the past is filled with experiences and relationships which still provide lessons about our motives and choices and how to discern the superior from the inferior. If you are not happy, fragrent, and fruitful, past mistakes and sins need forsaking, not examination, by a mind of hope seeking Father and His Way today. My memories are of learning by doing....always a little clumsy, disjointed, and ineffective at first and this is true for some time until balance, grace, poise, efficiency, and effectiveness appear in any craft or skill or art form. This is why evil is not sinful but a natural erring while learning while doing. And this is why Father measures the sincerety of the heart and not the outcome of the effort thereby. The outcomes improve with experience and experience improves by error. There is no short cut. Including relentless and critical self examination. The pure heart cures all ills and brings fruit to all lives. Self importance should be the first thing discovered in any such "self" examination....do we then prove our own importance by further infatuation with ourself? The changes and lessons we need will be found on the pilgrim's path along the edges of conflict today and in the weed patches of material viccisitudes requiring our attention to find that harmonic balance between the material and the divine....in the land of morontia mind.
  6. I do not presume to speak of any others' choices Howard....or their motives. You mean biblical sinning? Any act against the commandments sinning? But that is so shallow a measure my brother. Jesus said sin lies in one's heart BEFORE any word or deed. But evil, or error, is an incorrect or unfruitful intention, or an immature and unfruitful act but with a pure heart/intention. So, no, not all sin or must sin....this is for those who know the better way and choose the inferior way, usually for self gain of one sort or another. I am intriqued by the nonact or omission (you mistakenly called "commision" but I understand what you mean) or not doing "the good to which we are called to do". I rarely know what to do....and then, not do it. And procrastination is evil to be sure. But patience is not. Non-intereference can be the "right" thing to do in some cases as well....all problems are not mine to solve (thank the Lord for everybody's sake). Confusion regarding strategies or tactics remains even with a pure heart of good intent. I found it actually paralysing once upon a time....so concerned to not do the wrong thing, I couldn't choose the right thing. So omission may occur IF it is self serving in mind but not, in my mind, when discretion may be the more valorous response. But you touch upon a profound teaching in the Revelation....a positive response to others' sin and evil rather than any form of passivity. Jesus was seldom passive. And yet he warned of casting pearls before swine (I know you know that one) and when Ganid was confused by Jesus' lack of care, concern, and ministry outreach to the beggar, there is another lesson. We are told to not be over sympathetic to those who lie in the bed of their own making, that such can even lead to a self indulgence of pity. This is also part of maturity I think....not how to feel and approach all others and all situations, not to choose the better way, but rather, to discern how to add positive impact or when to just let things go for another soul or another day or Father's ministers to deal with a particular situation. Sometimes, by omission, we at least do not make things worse I feel. But I agree that cowardice or selfishness or laziness are poor intentions and have no righteousness attached so we must learn to discern much in our evil....or the error of our immature and inexperienced ways. God does not forgive evil. He ignores it. God does not forgive sin. He forgives the sinner. Sin does not exist anymore than does evil or they do not exist except in the limited realms in which they originate....that is the mind from which they spring. The individual mind and Father relationship therein suffer by both our errors and our intentional sin and not by any punishment by Father but by His divine laws. Sin is its own punishment. Evil is unpunished except by the consequences it brings to learn the better way thereby which punishments cease immediately upon so choosing better. And in this way I agree, "what matters is the progress in our life." as you say above. As to the original topic, it is taught that soul progress is a function of two things: the quantity of choices in one's life and the quality of choices made combine to measure or determine our progress. And while self awareness may require some self evaluation, such a focus remains on the ME and does not necesarrily increase either the quantity or the quality of choosing. It is by choosing and discovering the error within each choice that we truly learn to choose more wisely. The experiential element is critical I think. And we must be aware of far more than ourself and focused on that which is not self or important to self to grow. Our duty is to the experiential reality of the Supreme and the soul....that reality is within the encounters and relationships of our mind with that which is outside our mind and not inside....meanings and values are discovered in the truth, beauty, and goodness of others that we can witness, engage, and contribute thereto. Or so I believe.
  7. Thanks Sister. In my navel staring days, it occured to me how little I was actually doing and how focused I was on me and in hiding me from doing or interacting with others and their/my fears and hypocracies and prejudice. I was judgemental of others.... and of myself. They were unworthy. I was unworthy. Now I reflect and contrast my responses to every situation and encounter with and by the light of His Way. The wwjd came to help me (what would Jesus DO...not think - it's not wwjt !!). As I came to do less introspection and trust my intentions, intuitions, and caring about righteousness, I learned (am learning) to release the burden of outcome and strategies and to seek, within the moment, what to DO to bring light to the situation and help others know peace and release the grip of fear and anxiety. Too much judgement. We are not to judge ourselves either. Discernment, learning, choosing better by error, thinking to find meanings and values in everyday intersections to change our RESPONSE, both internally and externally to that which we find before us. This is a maturation result of doing more than thinking and thinking more than judging and doing all of that with less self and a prayerful life speaking to and listening to Father within. We must remove ourself from the center of our universe before we can move the seat of our identity from material to spiritual. Or so I have come to believe.
  8. Urantia Book Teachings "Do not become discouraged by the discovery that you are human. Human nature may tend toward evil, but it is not inherently sinful." Jesus, The Urantia Book, (1739.3) 156:5.8 OK!!...getting spooky now. The third intersect in 20 minutes, also on the home page:
  9. Golly, more intersections....from Alina's post yesterday on the Grandfanda topic: Alina posted: "Yes, the choice is ours, between these cosmic tensions we must find the balance needed to learn to know how to choose, between truth and error." (1300.6) 118:7.2 Even the supreme correlation of all past, present, and future choice does not invalidate the authenticity of such choosings. It rather indicates the foreordained trend of the cosmos and suggests foreknowledge of those volitional beings who may, or may not, elect to become contributory parts of the experiential actualization of all reality. (1300.7) 118:7.3 Error in finite choosing is time bound and time limited. It can exist only in time and within the evolving presence of the Supreme Being. Such mistaken choosing is time possible and indicates (besides the incompleteness of the Supreme) that certain range of choice with which immature creatures must be endowed in order to enjoy universe progression by making freewill contact with reality. (1301.1) 118:7.4 Sin in time-conditioned space clearly proves the temporal liberty — even license — of the finite will. Sin depicts immaturity dazzled by the freedom of the relatively sovereign will of personality while failing to perceive the supreme obligations and duties of cosmic citizenship.
  10. The lovely Baba Ram Dass. Been carrying it since '72 - 40 years now. Have you read about the NOW in the UB around the time unit perspective and the mature point of view? Remember, Be Here Now by Ram Dass (Oct 12, 1971) $15.15 $10.30 Paperback (1295.3) 118:1.3 There is a direct relationship between maturity and the unit of time consciousness in any given intellect. The time unit may be a day, a year, or a longer period, but inevitably it is the criterion by which the conscious self evaluates the circumstances of life, and by which the conceiving intellect measures and evaluates the facts of temporal existence. (1295.4) 118:1.4 Experience, wisdom, and judgment are the concomitants of the lengthening of the time unit in mortal experience. As the human mind reckons backward into the past, it is evaluating past experience for the purpose of bringing it to bear on a present situation. As mind reaches out into the future, it is attempting to evaluate the future significance of possible action. And having thus reckoned with both experience and wisdom, the human will exercises judgment-decision in the present, and the plan of action thus born of the past and the future becomes existent. (1295.5) 118:1.5 In the maturity of the developing self, the past and future are brought together to illuminate the true meaning of the present. As the self matures, it reaches further and further back into the past for experience, while its wisdom forecasts seek to penetrate deeper and deeper into the unknown future. And as the conceiving self extends this reach ever further into both past and future, so does judgment become less and less dependent on the momentary present. In this way does decision-action begin to escape from the fetters of the moving present, while it begins to take on the aspects of past-future significance. (1295.6) 118:1.6 Patience is exercised by those mortals whose time units are short; true maturity transcends patience by a forbearance born of real understanding. (1295.7) 118:1.7 To become mature is to live more intensely in the present, at the same time escaping from the limitations of the present. The plans of maturity, founded on past experience, are coming into being in the present in such manner as to enhance the values of the future. (1295.8) 118:1.8 The time unit of immaturity concentrates meaning-value into the present moment in such a way as to divorce the present of its true relationship to the not-present — the past-future. The time unit of maturity is proportioned so to reveal the co-ordinate relationship of past-present-future that the self begins to gain insight into the wholeness of events, begins to view the landscape of time from the panoramic perspective of broadened horizons, begins perhaps to suspect the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time.
  11. Ahhhh.....the intersections of "coincidence"....from the Foundation home page today: Urantia Book Teachings “You can only judge men by their acts, but my Father looks into the hearts of his children and in mercy adjudges them in accordance with their intents and real desires.” Jesus, The Urantia Book, (1576.5) 140:6.5
  12. Yes Bonita....this goes to Howard's other post about the Revelation being somehow a supplement or compliment to the bible and christianity.....and it is certainly not those. Too many religionists truly like and embrace the old "sin and redemption" song and dance. The original sin concept makes us all guilty and subject to sacrificial redemptions....perfecting is hardly considered at all. Just sin and redeem, sin and redeem for we are taught one cannot get salvation or to heaven by "works". It's crazy. "I don't deserve salvation and cannot earn it, so what's the point?". Salvation itself, like sin, is misunderstood by many or most. Indeed, the UB teaches we are, by nature, righteous and must learn egoism and materialism and the pleasures of sin to the loss of happiness....a poor substitute, no? People need to know we are here to error in experience to discern the superior way and further, that inattention to our intentions is disasterous. Spirit realization is a progressive experience or it is not experienced in any great measure or effect. Like Bonita, I have sinned but do not now. But error? That's job #1!! The challenge is to replace old errors with new truths realized and activated and move on to the next errors to come. Our velocity of decisions and actions and response and adjustments should increase if we error well enough, no? (1576.3) 140:6.3 “I demand of you a righteousness that shall exceed the righteousness of those who seek to obtain the Father’s favor by almsgiving, prayer, and fasting. If you would enter the kingdom, you must have a righteousness that consists in love, mercy, and truth — the sincere desire to do the will of my Father in heaven.” (1576.4) 140:6.4 Then said Simon Peter: “Master, if you have a new commandment, we would hear it. Reveal the new way to us.” Jesus answered Peter: “You have heard it said by those who teach the law: ‘You shall not kill; that whosoever kills shall be subject to judgment.’ But I look beyond the act to uncover the motive. I declare to you that every one who is angry with his brother is in danger of condemnation. He who nurses hatred in his heart and plans vengeance in his mind stands in danger of judgment. You must judge your fellows by their deeds; the Father in heaven judges by the intent. (1576.5) 140:6.5 “You have heard the teachers of the law say, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that every man who looks upon a woman with intent to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. You can only judge men by their acts, but my Father looks into the hearts of his children and in mercy adjudges them in accordance with their intents and real desires.” (1233.5) 112:5.9 This does not mean that human beings are to enjoy a second opportunity in the face of the rejection of a first, not at all. But it does signify that all will creatures are to experience one true opportunity to make one undoubted, self-conscious, and final choice. The sovereign Judges of the universes will not deprive any being of personality status who has not finally and fully made the eternal choice; the soul of man must and will be given full and ample opportunity to reveal its true intent and real purpose.
  13. It would seem unlikely since the UB Part IV was authored by contemporary witnesses to His life among us. Can or do any others make such a claim? The Jesusonian wisdom contained within the gospels revealed by parables, prayers, beatitudes, sayings, and teachings have been well studied and there is much interesting to be found therein. But as to the story of His life, we have that most complete and compelling story before us today. And in relational context to the Father and the universes of infinity and eternity within which are the realms of time and space. You're looking for something more?
  14. Well..."onward and upward....to infinity!" Here's to embracing the inevitablity and potentiality of certain change. May all the devotion and hard work and hopes of our site admins and monitors come to further fruition for all who benefit and may we all be blessed by the changes to come. What a delightful place I found here.
  15. I'm no techie but I'd hope a "read only" archive library available by link at the new site would work and would be a precious resource. Been here a year and am still reading and studying old threads, especially related to new topics. I understand about incompatibility about data "transfers" but, as Brother Pike says, perhaps there's some way.....?
  16. Howard says: "If you believe that the Urantia Book was written to supplement and complement the historic Christian faith, not to supersede it, then I see no reason why we need to abandon the ancient practice of intercessory prayer." There's the rub Howard. I don't believe that at all. Not only does the UB supersede the historic christian faith models, but it supplants it IN TOTAL with the original and expanded Gospel OF Jesus. I would now direct you to Paper 195: (2070.14) 195:0.18 Many of the great truths taught by Jesus were almost lost in these early compromises, but they yet slumber in this religion of paganized Christianity, which was in turn the Pauline version of the life and teachings of the Son of Man. And Christianity, even before it was paganized, was first thoroughly Hellenized. ........ (2082.7) 195:9.2 But paganized and socialized Christianity stands in need of new contact with the uncompromised teachings of Jesus; it languishes for lack of a new vision of the Master’s life on earth. ...... (2083.4) 195:9.8 The world needs more firsthand religion. Even Christianity — the best of the religions of the twentieth century — is not only a religion about Jesus, but it is so largely one which men experience secondhand. They take their religion wholly as handed down by their accepted religious teachers. What an awakening the world would experience if it could only see Jesus as he really lived on earth and know, firsthand, his life-giving teachings!...... (2083.7) 195:9.11 So-called Christianity has become a social and cultural movement as well as a religious belief and practice. The stream of modern Christianity drains many an ancient pagan swamp and many a barbarian morass; many olden cultural watersheds drain into this present-day cultural stream as well as the high Galilean tablelands which are supposed to be its exclusive source...... Why drain another's paganistic swamp or barbarian morass?? Those who know better but cling to the old, tired, and ineffective ways are beyond error. I believe the 5th Epochal Revelation was delivered to help us escape these barbarous chains that hold us back from a personal and intimate relationship directly with Father. Would you approach him? If so, Mary and the saints stand in your way.....but only because you insist upon it. But pray on Brother. Pray on. No doubt your sincerety travels the distance you require of it. I guess we're not going to get to that discussion on prayer. Maybe another time.
  17. "What a mistake to dream of God far off in the skies when the spirit of the Universal Father lives within your own mind!" The Urantia Book, (64.6) 5:2.3 No intercessor required. Absonite - glad I'm not the only one since I was accused of "willful ignorance" (prejudice? stubborness?) and, apparently "don't have the vocabulary and frame of reference to understand what I am talking about. It's like "casting pearls before swine" ..." In good humor I must oink to that I suppose. Sorry to be so unworthy there Friend Howard. But I think I understand the word pray....and its history. To petition is the lowest form of prayer. I hate watching athletes today so petition. They always thank god for victory....but not defeat? The more self is removed from prayer, the more effective for outcome and he/she who prays. Prayer is a ladder to worship. A simple warm up lap for communion. There is zero distance between the righteous mind and Father's mind/love. There should not be room for any intercessor to fit therein. Howard, no one here judges your form of praying. I know it's comforting and cultural. As you say, I'm an old hillbilly protestant raised to shun all such intercession in any regard to our relationship with Father. But it is not my protestentism I present but the 5th Epochal Revelation. This is the keystone in the Revelation in my mind - who are we and where are we in relation to Father? The uniform and universal template of circuitry and connectivity between the Creator and the created is the end of all priests, pettitioners, intercessors, intermediaries, oracles, mediums, etc., etc. As I said in my first reply....any form of sincere prayer is both desireable and effective compared to NOT praying, so I do not criticise any their particular form. But as we are here to share the Revelation's teachings, including by comparison and contrast with others, I would again offer to take this thread to a study of superior forms of prayer whenever you wish. Have you read the paper on prayer yet?
  18. Michael skipped the 570 different morontial body forms of ever greater spiritization of form. There's a quote somewhere about the soul or morontia mind have much to do with our morontia physical form or look (not body or material type) as we retain individualization and personal identification in some way. But we will have bodies for a long time to come while Michael assumed his form upon leaving the mortal shell behind. (542.1) 48:1.4 The early morontia life in the local systems is very much like that of your present material world, becoming less physical and more truly morontial on the constellation study worlds. And as you advance to the Salvington spheres, you increasingly attain spiritual levels. (542.2) 48:1.5 The Morontia Power Supervisors are able to effect a union of material and of spiritual energies, thereby organizing a morontia form of materialization which is receptive to the superimposition of a controlling spirit. When you traverse the morontia life of Nebadon, these same patient and skillful Morontia Power Supervisors will successively provide you with 570 morontia bodies, each one a phase of your progressive transformation. From the time of leaving the material worlds until you are constituted a first-stage spirit on Salvington, you will undergo just 570 separate and ascending morontia changes. Eight of these occur in the system, seventy-one in the constellation, and 491 during the sojourn on the spheres of Salvington. (542.3) 48:1.6 In the days of the mortal flesh the divine spirit indwells you, almost as a thing apart — in reality an invasion of man by the bestowed spirit of the Universal Father. But in the morontia life the spirit will become a real part of your personality, and as you successively pass through the 570 progressive transformations, you ascend from the material to the spiritual estate of creature life. What's our form in the super universe adventure? As we are not yet pure spirit I don't think.
  19. Much of the Roman church (and I mean MUCH including holy days, priests, pulpits, and more) came by way of the Mithraic religion/cult. So did "intercession" as a continuation of this in-place primitivism. Before Mary was Mithrais. (1082.4) 98:5.3 The Mithraic cult portrayed a militant god taking origin in a great rock, engaging in valiant exploits, and causing water to gush forth from a rock struck with his arrows. There was a flood from which one man escaped in a specially built boat and a last supper which Mithras celebrated with the sun-god before he ascended into the heavens. This sun-god, or Sol Invictus, was a degeneration of the Ahura-Mazda deity concept of Zoroastrianism. Mithras was conceived as the surviving champion of the sun-god in his struggle with the god of darkness. And in recognition of his slaying the mythical sacred bull, Mithras was made immortal, being exalted to the station of intercessor for the human race among the gods on high. But the pope and priests were not quite satisfied with but one intercessor so they added many more in their "dark ages" of receeding even further back into their original panteistic primitivism of holy intercessors: (2074.7) 195:4.1 The church, being an adjunct to society and the ally of politics, was doomed to share in the intellectual and spiritual decline of the so-called European “dark ages.” During this time, religion became more and more monasticized, asceticized, and legalized. In a spiritual sense, Christianity was hibernating. Throughout this period there existed, alongside this slumbering and secularized religion, a continuous stream of mysticism, a fantastic spiritual experience bordering on unreality and philosophically akin to pantheism. (2074.8) 195:4.2 During these dark and despairing centuries, religion became virtually secondhanded again. The individual was almost lost before the overshadowing authority, tradition, and dictation of the church. A new spiritual menace arose in the creation of a galaxy of “saints” who were assumed to have special influence at the divine courts, and who, therefore, if effectively appealed to, would be able to intercede in man’s behalf before the Gods. This is what you wish to promote? Here? I think not. But again, I'd be happy to redirect the focus here away from such paganist primitivism toward a more functional and superior form of prayer....direct to Father within and Michael as Brother/Creator. It is our personal relationship with Father that matters and no one and no thing stands between thee and He.
  20. Intercessory prayers are not "normal" nor effective for any. Sorry. Praying for others is a fine practice and is hardly the same thing as praying TO someone TO pray or petition for you. Witchdoctor primitivisms. Unworthy. Period. You're the one going in circles by trying to equate praying for another and praying to another. Get your own religious practice straight as these are not the same thing. Do what you will but quit trying to claim the Revelation supports such nonsense. Have you read the paper I recommended yet. Please do. And let's discuss practices with efficacy shall we?
  21. Simply because you are praying to an unnecesarry and ineffectual intermediary. Despite the official catholic doctrine, this is a primitive practice. And we are not here to learn about the still primitive practices of your church...but what the Revelation teaches us, especially in contrast and contradistinction to our current religious practices. Please pray how you will and to whom you wish. If you can't discern the difference between the Father within and His creator Son as the direction of your prayers rather than one time mortals, you have much text yet to read and learn from. There is always a superior way and all others. Praying to Mary or a saint would be one of those others. No one stands between the created and their Creator. No one. Ever. Never. A fairy tale of the priesthood. (1001.8) 91:8.4 To some individuals prayer is the calm expression of gratitude; to others, a group expression of praise, social devotions; sometimes it is the imitation of another’s religion, while in true praying it is the sincere and trusting communication of the spiritual nature of the creature with the anywhere presence of the spirit of the Creator. (1001.9) 91:8.5 Prayer may be a spontaneous expression of God-consciousness or a meaningless recitation of theologic formulas. It may be the ecstatic praise of a God-knowing soul or the slavish obeisance of a fear-ridden mortal. It is sometimes the pathetic expression of spiritual craving and sometimes the blatant shouting of pious phrases. Prayer may be joyous praise or a humble plea for forgiveness. (2088.5) 196:0.10 Jesus brought to God, as a man of the realm, the greatest of all offerings: the consecration and dedication of his own will to the majestic service of doing the divine will. Jesus always and consistently interpreted religion wholly in terms of the Father’s will. When you study the career of the Master, as concerns prayer or any other feature of the religious life, look not so much for what he taught as for what he did. Jesus never prayed as a religious duty. To him prayer was a sincere expression of spiritual attitude, a declaration of soul loyalty, a recital of personal devotion, an expression of thanksgiving, an avoidance of emotional tension, a prevention of conflict, an exaltation of intellection, an ennoblement of desire, a vindication of moral decision, an enrichment of thought, an invigoration of higher inclinations, a consecration of impulse, a clarification of viewpoint, a declaration of faith, a transcendental surrender of will, a sublime assertion of confidence, a revelation of courage, the proclamation of discovery, a confession of supreme devotion, the validation of consecration, a technique for the adjustment of difficulties, and the mighty mobilization of the combined soul powers to withstand all human tendencies toward selfishness, evil, and sin. He lived just such a life of prayerful consecration to the doing of his Father’s will and ended his life triumphantly with just such a prayer. The secret of his unparalleled religious life was this consciousness of the presence of God; and he attained it by intelligent prayer and sincere worship — unbroken communion with God — and not by leadings, voices, visions, or extraordinary religious practices.
  22. Howard - allow me to recommend Paper 91 on the history and higher levels of prayer. What you suggest is a form of primitivism and not an ideal at all. But, as you will find in the text, any and all forms of prayer are superior to not praying to be sure. But we are taught that there are more effective and less effective forms of prayer. We all say prayers on behalf of others and this is not the issue....it is our praying that is the issue....not others praying for us. To whom do we pray? For whom or for what? To what end? The true value of prayer lies in its power to transform the one who prays....not to gain favors or ease material burdens...but to feel Father and personally approach Him by His Son in Spirit toward the state of worship....and then communion, personal communion. This requires no intermediaries or intercessors....especially not saints or Mary or any other one time mortal, current morontial, angels, etc. Prayer is personal Creator and created, or it is not much at all. Truly. Please read the paper and then let us continue discussing this important topic of our prayer life and how we might improve its outcomes as a transformative experience for the pilgrims of time to touch the robe of our Brother and know the blessings of Father within. Let us begin with the value and potential in our prayer life: (996.5) 91:2.7 Prayer contributes greatly to the development of the religious sentiment of an evolving human mind. It is a mighty influence working to prevent isolation of personality. (996.6) 91:2.8 Prayer represents one technique associated with the natural religions of racial evolution which also forms a part of the experiential values of the higher religions of ethical excellence, the religions of revelation. (999.9) 91:6.6 Prayer has been an indispensable factor in the progress and preservation of religious civilization, and it still has mighty contributions to make to the further enhancement and spiritualization of society if those who pray will only do so in the light of scientific facts, philosophic wisdom, intellectual sincerity, and spiritual faith. Pray as Jesus taught his disciples — honestly, unselfishly, with fairness, and without doubting. (1000.1) 91:6.7 But the efficacy of prayer in the personal spiritual experience of the one who prays is in no way dependent on such a worshiper’s intellectual understanding, philosophic acumen, social level, cultural status, or other mortal acquirements. The psychic and spiritual concomitants of the prayer of faith are immediate, personal, and experiential. There is no other technique whereby every man, regardless of all other mortal accomplishments, can so effectively and immediately approach the threshold of that realm wherein he can communicate with his Maker, where the creature contacts with the reality of the Creator, with the indwelling Thought Adjuster. <a name="U91_3_0">
  23. I hope you do. For I meant no criticism and I really enjoy your perspectives and am enriched by your posts here on many topics (including this one). Your depth of knowledge and patient presentations are of great value and you tackle complexities that wither my mind to muteness. And yet my concepts grow and conceptualizations multiply thereby. My support of Alina is no lack of support for you, your opinions in this particular, or your voice. Should have said so above. My apologies. There is a bridge at every divide and I am certain of the soundness of this one. Peace Brother.
  24. Absonite...if I may suggest, I doubt there is much disagreement between your view and Alina's, except vernacular. Alina is daring in her caring in her contributions here as a second language and it helps to focus on her relevant and descriptive quotes she always provides to help us contextualize her thoughts and words. Next, it would amaze you, perhaps, if you would try reconstructing or rearanging verbs, nouns, adjectives, etc. and see how meanings can be inflected or misconstrued. I think her chosen text speaks certainly enough and does not deny everyones' ability to conceive the Father...albeit inadequately, incompletely, falsely, etc. but not as He is. Just my take on this. I can assure you Alina has an ever growing concept of Father and shares it here freely.
  25. Good questions and there is much written about prayer...and whom to pray to. Your ernest petition itself raises interesting questions. I'll research and be back, but for now: (65.5) 5:3.3 Worship is for its own sake; prayer embodies a self- or creature-interest element; that is the great difference between worship and prayer. There is absolutely no self-request or other element of personal interest in true worship; we simply worship God for what we comprehend him to be. Worship asks nothing and expects nothing for the worshiper. We do not worship the Father because of anything we may derive from such veneration; we render such devotion and engage in such worship as a natural and spontaneous reaction to the recognition of the Father’s matchless personality and because of his lovable nature and adorable attributes. (65.6) 5:3.4 The moment the element of self-interest intrudes upon worship, that instant devotion translates from worship to prayer and more appropriately should be directed to the person of the Eternal Son or the Creator Son. But in practical religious experience there exists no reason why prayer should not be addressed to God the Father as a part of true worship. (66.1) 5:3.5 When you deal with the practical affairs of your daily life, you are in the hands of the spirit personalities having origin in the Third Source and Center; you are co-operating with the agencies of the Conjoint Actor. And so it is: You worship God; pray to, and commune with, the Son; and work out the details of your earthly sojourn in connection with the intelligences of the Infinite Spirit operating on your world and throughout your universe.
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