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Old Soul

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  1. (1)"The advanced stages of a world settled in light and life represent the acme of evolutionary material development. On these cultured worlds, gone are the idleness and friction of the earlier primitive ages. Poverty and social inequality have all but vanished, degeneracy has disappeared, and delinquency is rarely observed. Insanity has practically ceased to exist, and feeble-mindedness is a rarity (629)."


    (2)"Reproduction is regulated in accordance with planetary requirement and innate hereditary endowments: The mortals on a planet during this age are divided into from five to ten groups, and the lower groups are permitted to produce only one half as many children as the higher (630)."



    I found an apparent contradiction as I was gathering quotes for my post on the other thread. Social inequality has been vanquished? And yet the lower classes are not allowed to produce more offspring than the higher classes? What kind of social equality do you call that?


    If you will notice, the one is refering to (1) social inequality and the other is refering to (2) biological inequality. Very simple. No contradiction. And it does not say social inequality has been "vanquished"; it says all but vanished (which means it still exists but in a far lesser degree).


    The word "vanquished" means subdued completely or overcome. The word "vanished" means to pass completely from existence. There is a difference in the words used. The revelators were saying that social inequality still exists "all but vanished".


    Anyway, no contradiction as I see it.

  2. "The advanced stages of a world settled in light and life represent the acme of evolutionary material development. On these cultured worlds, gone are the idleness and friction of the earlier primitive ages. Poverty and social inequality have all but vanished, degeneracy has disappeared, and delinquency is rarely observed. Insanity has practically ceased to exist, and feeble-mindedness is a rarity (629)."


    "Reproduction is regulated in accordance with planetary requirement and innate hereditary endowments: The mortals on a planet during this age are divided into from five to ten groups, and the lower groups are permitted to produce only one half as many children as the higher (630)."


    And these quotes are found in what Paper?

  3. I appreciate all the intellectual analysis being put forth here, but I would just like to add that all of these things must become such a part of our whole being that what we do, why we do , and when we do must be a spontaneous act that IS the will of God. It must be effortless. "It is my will that your will be done" must be a conscious reality, an "automatic" production of fruit.


    In other words, when we think tooooo much about doing this or choosing that, the choices become the "goal" rather than just being. We crave to be God-like: God IS. We must also BE.

  4. I would like to add my thoughts to the initial post given by Bonita. Please excuse if I have repeated what someone else may have suggested.


    You had asked:


    Which brings me to the question, what is the difference between the
    spiritized or spiritualized mind and the soul
    ? Clearly there is a difference because when we pass from this world and prior to resurrection, the Thought Adjuster takes with him the "
    spiritized factors of mind
    , memory, and creature personality" while the destiny guardian is in custody of the "
    creature mind-matrix
    and the passive potentials of identity are present in the morontia soul".


    I would suggest that the "spiritualizing of our mind" is the transformation of our material mind by the Thought Adjuster, as well as the Spirit of Truth, as embodying the "mind of Christ". From material to spiritual.


    Survival is dependent on spiritualization by the ministry of the Adjuster — on the birth and evolution of the immortal soul; at least, there must not have developed an antagonism towards
    the Adjuster's mission of effecting the
    spiritual transformation of the material mind



    Whereas, when speaking of the Eternal Son as being "a spiritualized personalization" of the Father and the Infinite Spirit as "a personalized spiritualization" of the Eternal Son and the Universal Father, it seems to be describing the "embodiment" of all that the Father is. From spiritual to personal to spiritual. (9:2.2)


    I would then suggest that "spiritized" may have more to do with the actual transforming of our soul from the material to the morontia to the spirit.  


    The reactions and fluctuations of spirit gravity are ever true to the content of spiritual values, the qualitative spiritual status of an individual or a world. This drawing power is instantly responsive to the inter- and intraspirit values of any universe situation or planetary condition.
    Every time a
    spiritual reality actualizes
    in the universes, this change necessitates the immediate and instantaneous readjustment of spirit gravity
    . Such a new spirit is actually a part of the Second Source and Center; and
    just as certainly as
    mortal man becomes a spiritized being
    , he will attain the spiritual Son, the center and source of spirit gravity


    So that as we become more spirit than material, the Thought Adjuster possesses the reality and the potential of actualizing that reality:



    The mortal-mind transcripts and the active creature-memory patterns as transformed from the material levels to the spiritual are the individual possession of the detached Thought Adjusters; these
    spiritized factors of mind, memory, and creature personality
    forever a part of such Adjusters


    Those "spiritized" factors of mind, memory and creature personality are those which have already been "transformed" (only in the morontial state at first) and are part of your higher self (the Thought Adjuster) not only in potential, but in reality awaiting to be actualized as spirit.


  5. Hello Old Soul,


    Thanks for your inputs on the versions you like. Whatever works best for you is good. The message of the book is what counts. A little elbow grease doesn't hurt anyone to get what one is after.








    With all respect, I am not thinking only of what "I like" or what "I am after". I am considering anyone who may happen to pass through and read your posts and how they would have a time finding your quotes unless they happened to be in possession of a copy of the Book you have. Whereas, when one reads Bonita's quotes or Nigel's quotes they are givingn the full reference and it helps in relaying a message in context much easier and quicker for everyone. I am quite capable of using my computer skills to find "what I am after." But there are plenty of people who are not. I know a few personally.


    Yes, I agree, it is the message that counts, but would it not be the loving, giving and more considerate thing to provide the full reference for everyone concerned so that the message is not something someone has to use their "elbow grease" to access? That's like saying "I had to work for it so you're going to have to work for it, too." You may choose to do so, but for some it may be very frustrating. Even for yourself, you would not need to get your elbows so greasy if you were more willing to consider making it simpler for others as well.


    Do what you will. It was a legitimate request, not just for my "likes" or "preferences" but for others.


    I'm sorry you have chosen not to check out the links I have provided in my previous post. I would hope they will provide someone else with the ease of access to The Urantia Book and all of its messages.


    Best wishes


  6. Hello Old Soul, all,


    I use the CD-ROM Computer Version 2.00 published in 1997 by Urantia Foundation, rather than the online version offered at the Urantia Foundation website. I love it, as it is an immediate and direct reference tool downloaded on my computer. I prefer it over the online version, because the online version encompasses more than just the book, as you may already know. All I want is the book and the search engine which provides the whole paragraph, not an exerpt, in which the word or phrase appears. It has other features too. I'm accustomed to it, as I used it back in the mid-90s when the Folios version was first published on diskettes. Remember those? I can add the paragraph number to quote, if that would help you. I will do that.


    Doesn't your version of the book show the original pagination? I am sorry it is difficult to find the references in your book. It's an extra step, but you can always pull out key words in the references I cite and go to the website to find what you are looking for.


    All the best,





    Thank you for considering adding the paragraph number, etc. I just am not sure why you don't make it easier for yourself by using the online UB at:


    The Urantia Book (the UB Fellowship site) or The Urantia Book Online (Urantia Foundation)


    and if you need a good search engine (much better than the one on the CD-Rom) you could go to:


    Search Engine (Truthbook.com) or the Topical Index (the UB Fellowship site)


    The search engine provides the whole paragraph containing your search, but you are also able to go to the paper and read it in context. The Topical Index takes you right to the Paper and paragraph.



    These all use the Standard edition or the Uversa Edition (which is not any different than your edition but they provide the Page -Paper -Section -Paragraph.)


    All you have to do is copy and paste into your post and it is there for everyone's needs (page - Paper - Sec - Paragraph). You should give it a try. New things sometimes may surprise you how much easier and more efficient they are.


    When I am online I use the online UB at The Urantia Book Fellowship site. When I read it I use my Uversa edition which does not have the 1955 page numbers (why should it???). It also has the Topical Index which is incredibly useful. You should try it. The 1955 version would be like using a Bible without Chapter and Verse. I guess if that's what you started with (whenever) that's what you would get used to. I didn't like it after I found the Uversa publication.


    Anyway, it is so much easier for everyone to have the full reference in front of them.


    Thank you

  7. Hello Meredith:


    I would like to ask that you give Paper: Section: and Paragraph to your quotes (as Bonita has done) as the page number means nothing to me since I do not have a copy of the 1955 edition.


    It has always made so much more sense to reference The Urantia Book by Paper-Section-Paragraph, much like one references the Bible by Book-Chapter-Verse. Makes it so much easier to find.


    Thank you.

  8. Since we are being wordsmiths, I would have to disagree with the use of the word satisfaction.


    The dictionary definition of the word satisfaction is: fulfillment of one's wishes, expectations or needs, or the pleasure derived from this.


    Satisfaction implies that there is an element of concern about the self and what the self is going to get in return for altruism or love. If one is trying to fulfill one's self with acts of altruism and love, then by definition they are not acts of altruism or love.



    I don't want to seem disagreeable, since I just said "we agree", but I think there may be such a thing as feeling satisfaction at seeing someone else's needs being met and that would be an unselfish, spontaneous reaction. Feeling pleasure would not have to be a selfish thing either. It, too, could be an unselfish reaction to someone else's good "fortune" (I don't care for that word).


    TUB says:


    • 5:5.7 Mortal man secures three great satisfactions from religious experience, even in the days of his temporal sojourn on earth:
      1. 5:5.8 Intellectually he acquires the satisfactions of a more unified human consciousness.
      2. 5:5.9 Philosophically he enjoys the substantiation of his ideals of moral values.
      3. 5:5.10 Spiritually he thrives in the experience of divine companionship, in the spiritual satisfactions of true worship.


    • 28:6.8 You should realize that there is a great reward of personal satisfaction in being first just, next fair, then patient, then kind. And then, on that foundation, if you choose and have it in your heart, you can take the next step and really show mercy; but you cannot exhibit mercy in and of itself. These steps must be traversed; otherwise there can be no genuine mercy. There may be patronage, condescension, or charity — even pity — but not mercy. True mercy comes only as the beautiful climax to these preceding adjuncts to group understanding, mutual appreciation, fraternal fellowship, spiritual communion, and divine harmony.

    So, it seems that satisfaction is not necessarily a result of a selfish act, but then like I said, altruism is an unselfish act. It may be that the Thought Adjuster has something to do with urging the act of altruism but I don't see that necessarily as an act of "love". I have done (a few) altruistic acts in my life and I can't say that I "loved" the person I helped. I did it out of compassion or just plain seeing that they needed help. It was a service, but it was neither selfish nor self-satisfaction seeking. It was satisfying, for sure, but in the sense that they had their needs met, not because that it made me feel good.

  9. Anyone who has attained there thought adjuster I would much like

    To converse with you as to your experience with such highly personal beings that is the thought

    Adjusters whereby I might decern and be all the more prepared to act and be and to recognize the arrival of my thought adjuster



    Your brother


    110:3.6 You must not regard co-operation with your Adjuster as a particularly conscious process, for it is not; but your motives and your decisions, your faithful determinations and your supreme desires, do constitute real and effective co-operation. You can consciously augment Adjuster harmony by:


    1. 110:3.7 Choosing to respond to divine leading; sincerely basing the human life on the highest consciousness of truth, beauty, and goodness, and then co-ordinating these qualities of divinity through wisdom, worship, faith, and love.
    2. 110:3.8 Loving God and desiring to be like him—genuine recognition of the divine fatherhood and loving worship of the heavenly Parent.
    3. 110:3.9 Loving man and sincerely desiring to serve him—wholehearted recognition of the brotherhood of man coupled with an intelligent and wise affection for each of your fellow mortals.
    4. 110:3.10 Joyful acceptance of cosmic citizenship—honest recognition of your progressive obligations to the Supreme Being, awareness of the interdependence of evolutionary man and evolving Diety. This is the birth of cosmic morality and the dawning realization of universal duty.

  10. This is as good a time as any to review what Jesus taught us concerning the golden rule. It's important to remember that he was giving this lecture to first century Jews. Oddly enough, the golden rule is not one of the commandments given in either Exodus or Deuteronomy. However, an oral teaching of the rabbis of the time was, "Do not unto one's fellow what is hateful to oneself." This teaching is a negative approach, in other words, what not to do. Jesus taught a positive approach which was new and transcended the Jewish law of the time.


    First, I must say that I am aware that The Golden Rule and the command of Jesus are two different teachings. Maybe I should have put "and" between "The Golden Rule [and] the command of Jesus to love one another."


    Secondly, although I know what The UB says about The Golden Rule, I see it as a positive approach .... "DO unto others as you would have them DO unto you".... to active social contact rather than a negative "DO NOT." This positive approach, to DO, falls within the command that Jesus gave to LOVE one another and to love your neighbor as yourself. (Actually, I have always seen the command to love your neighbor as yourself as being the same thing as the Golden Rule.


    I was saying that, either one cannot be done before one loves God first. We may be able to be nice to one another, but to love one another as He loved us, or love our neighbor as we love ourselves, is just not possible without truly loving God first.


    I know I will get disagreements with this, but I don't see altruism as the same as love. It may be "unselfish" regard for or devotion to the welfare of others, but it is not necessarily Love. It is just unselfish. You can do unselfish things for people and not love them. Jesus was emphasizing love not altruism.



    I guess I'm talking about:


    • 4. The level of brotherly love. Still higher is discovered the level of unselfish devotion to the welfare of one's fellows. On this higher plane of wholehearted social service growing out of the consciousness of the fatherhood of God and the consequent recognition of the brotherhood of man, there is discovered a new and far more beautiful interpretation of this basic rule of life.

    Anyway, thanks Bonita.

  11. One note, the founder of the Mormon Church claimed to of have seen God, you should know by now "No man Sees God and lives."


    In brotherly love ...Jess


    169.4.2 Jesus never gave his apostles a systematic lesson concerning the personality and attributes of the Father in heaven. He never asked men to believe in his Father; he took it for granted they did. Jesus never belittled himself by offering arguments in proof of the reality of the Father. His teaching regarding the Father all centered in the declaration that he and the Father are one; that he who has seen the Son has seen the Father; that the Father, like the Son, knows all things; that only the Son really knows the Father, and he to whom the Son will reveal him; that he who knows the Son knows also the Father; and that the Father sent him into the world to reveal their combined natures and to show forth their conjoint work. He never made other pronouncements about his Father except to the woman of Samaria at Jacob’s well, when he declared, “God is spirit.”


    6.2.2 The Eternal Son is the eternal Word of God. He is wholly like the Father; in fact, the Eternal Son is God the Father personally manifest to the universe of universes. And thus it was and is and forever will be true of the Eternal Son and of all the co-ordinate Creator Sons: “He who has seen the Son has seen the Father.”



    Is it possible that this Mormon Founder saw Michael?

  12. Bonita:

    "Today, there are people who have confused the meaning of devotion and have converted religion into a way of life that actually excludes the spirit, replacing it instead with nature, health, physical beauty, outward acts of social concern, and endless causes designed to save the world rather than their own souls. I'm seriously concerned that the concept and importance of the soul and the willingness for devoted loyalty to the spirit is being tragically ignored by the average person."

    The religion of the mind has always excluded the spirit. Devotion must, of a necessity, be born out of the religion of the spirit, which is the result of a consistent and conscious (maybe somewhat unconscious) seeking of that intimate, personal and experiential relationship with God: personality intercourse.


    The average person will not experience God in such a conscious and substantive way as to cause them to be the devoted soul we wish to in everyone. It takes time and the evolution of the mind /soul being transformed and renewed by the spirit, drawing continuously upon our perceptions and receptivity to that intercourse.


    "Where are the spiritual fruits to come from?"


    The spiritual fruits must come from those who have experienced that transformation to the point that they allow the spirit to manifest those fruits spontaneously through them. They are the ones who, by choice, through this transforming renewal of the spirit-mind, by the spirit, have devoted themselves to Him.


    "How can people think it is important to devote time to God when they don't know who he is? How can they become devoted to their souls if they don't know what a soul is?.... So, the emphasis first has to be away from things to persons and then from persons to the one true person whom we can know better than anyone else, God himself within."


    Actually, we must first find God within before we can truly learn to be devoted to others. When we experience God as He is, where He is, we cannot possible be less loving, devoted and caring towards others.


    "It means that a balance between the two is required, but a relationship with the Father must precede one's comprehension of what is necessary in order to have a loving and unselfish relationship with one's brother in the first place. The flow is circular; it begins with the inner life and flows outward. The flow is then maintained by devoted meditation and facilitated by loving service. The spiritual life requires both nourishment and exercise."


    The Golden rule, the command of Jesus to love one another is possible only if we truly love God (otherwise it is selfish and borne out of social skills and may be good for society, but with no lasting spirit value).



    Finding God, truly finding God experientially and not just on the pages of a book, will change that.


    "Fear period! Fear of intimacy, fear of being loved, fear of being ridiculed by others, fear of becoming a navel gazer, fear of being lost in daydreams, fear of one's own mind, fear of the unknown, fear of having to sacrifice something, fear of inadequacy, fear of being forced to face one's "issues", fear of finding out one's secret evils, fear of discovering one's true self . . . the list is endless . . . and the excuses exhausting."

    Exactly! Fear can only be eradicated by love and trust, and that in our relationship with the Father: personality intercourse.

  13. "Why aren't more people interested in having personality intercourse? The personality circuit was brought up on another thread and interest in it just died on the vine. I'm wondering why that is so, or why not the spirit gravity circuit for that matter. Why is there no interest in that? It's just strange, odd and peculiar. But it's time, don't you think? The material age is almost over and we are on the brink of a new awakening."


    Yes! I have thought it is time for 35 years and only very few seem to be responding to the gravity of the spirit which continues to draw those who are willing. I think it could be a matter of consciousness distraction. People are too distracted by not just material things, but religious matters (the religion of the mind) and they don't spend time alone with God. Remember how often Jesus would go aside alone with God to commune with Him? People aren't doing that. And if they are going aside, they are more alone with their prayers of wanting this and that rather than actually seeking an intimate personality intercourse with the Father. There is too much "noise". Not enough stillness. Too much doing, not enough being. Too much distraction.


    On a positive note, I think all of that may be about to change. I think there is definitely a new awakening in the process and will accelerate over the next few years.



    "The Pope just gave a talk in Sulmona, Italy where he said, "In modern society, it seems that every space, every moment must be filled with initiatives, activities, sounds. Often there isn't even the time to listen. Let's not fear the silence inside and outside of us." I thought those were amazing words and the world should hear them if it only had the interest to listen."


    That may be part of the problem: FEAR of the SILENCE. The world will not hear those words unless the Spirit of Truth prepares them. Those who will hear are the ones who will no longer be fearful of the God inside of them and they will make time to listen.



    "Maybe the world is just more interested in dating, whatever that is nowadays . . . just guessing."


    I hear that!

  14. I agree Old Soul. But why wait until mansonia and after? We have the capability for personality intercourse right now, in that we are Adjuster indwelt. We are capable of the developing intellectual and spiritual communion by way of cooperating with the Adjuster. Isn't it ironic that it takes a pre-personal entity to teach us how to be real persons?


    109:4.1 The higher forms of intelligent intercommunication between human beings are greatly helped by the indwelling Adjusters. Animals do have fellow feelings, but they do not communicate concepts to each other; they can express emotions but not ideas and ideals.
    Neither do men of animal origin experience a high type of intellectual intercourse or spiritual communion with their fellows until the Thought Adjusters have been bestowed
    , albeit, when such evolutionary creatures develop speech, they are on the highroad to receiving Adjusters.


    109:4.2 Animals do, in a crude way, communicate with each other, but there is little or no personality in such primitive contact.
    Adjusters are not personality; they are prepersonal beings. But they do hail from the source of personality, and their presence does augment the qualitative manifestations of human personality
    ; especially is this true if the Adjuster has had previous experience.


    Absolutely! I am not waiting. I have personality intercourse as often as I can, sometimes without my conscious effort. But, what I was driving at, in light of the talk of dating, nights out with an Adamite and Jerusem partying, is the finality of my focus: UNION (which could happen before mansonia).

  15. Probably being much older than Midsonite woman, I can hardly get a handle on or be thrilled about the matter of "dating" anyone, even on Jerusem, especially on Jerusem.


    Personally, my focus is on the union I hope and desire to have with my Thought Adjuster; the becoming ONE MIND, ONE WILL, ONE BEING. This is the desire of my heart and I have faith that it will happen.


    We must remember that one focus of their mission, Adam and Eve were to uplift mankind biologically. Theirs was a mission of science, not a mission of matchmaking as we may understand the practice.


    I suppose one could misconstrue the following as "dating" on Jerusem, but one would need a highly imaginative mind (as opposed to a mind grounded in realities - please take no offense, as none is intended) to do so:


    • 4.17 7. The Reserves. The reserve corps of administrator seraphim on Jerusem spend much of their waiting time in visiting, as spirit companions, with the newly arrived ascending mortals from the various worlds of the system -- the accredited graduates of the mansion worlds. One of the delights of your sojourn on Jerusem will be to talk and visit, during recess periods, with these much-traveled and many-experienced seraphim of the waiting reserve corps.

      39:4.18 It is just such friendly relationships as these that so endear a system capital to the ascending mortals. On Jerusem you will find the first intermingling of Material Sons, angels, and ascending pilgrims. Here fraternize beings who are wholly spiritual and semispiritual and individuals just emerging from material existence. Mortal forms are there so modified and human ranges of light reaction so extended that all are able to enjoy mutual recognition and sympathetic personality understanding.

    So, would it not be more of a thrill on Jerusem and elsewhere to leave behind the ways of material existence (such as "dating") and enjoy the pure, spiritual intercourse of minds and beings that we do not have the priviledge of association with on this level of our existence?


    At least, IMHO, that would be more along the lines of reality. :rolleyes:

    • 1.7.2 Man does not achieve union with God as a drop of water might find unity with the ocean. Man attains divine union by progressive reciprocal spiritual communion, by personality intercourse with the personal God, by increasingly attaining the divine nature through wholehearted and intelligent conformity to the divine will. Such a sublime relationship can exist only between personalities.

    I don't know anything about what may or may not have been said by this man on the DVD, but I would venture to guess that he might have used this quote and because of human inability to separate flesh from spirit sometimes because of human language symbols, the word "intercourse" may have been misunderstood in this man's attempt to describe a reality, something that is so personal and intimate, as is that union experienced between a husband and wife, man and woman, which is a shadow of the eternal union with the spirit, and so the "gross" misinterpretating one way or the other.


    Personally, I find no disgrace in looking at "shadows" and "types" reflecting reality in a somewhat crude, sometimes distorted manner, but nevertheless a shadow of a higher and more perfect manifestation of reality that awaits us.


    Of course, if someone feels that the union between a man and a woman is debase, or doesn't understand it to be a shadow of something higher in reality, then I can see why the use of the word "intercourse" and "union" and "God" or "TA" in the same breath would be disgusting.

  16. I think it was the year 2000 when I first remember praying to my TA to let me do his entire life plan for me and eventually fuse with me. You know the life plan that the TA brings to the mortal? That's the plan I told him I wanted to do. Not my plan, but yours be done. But it hasn't been a jubilee, at least not on my end. If there was some sort of jubilee, I must have missed it. It's been non-stop hard work.


    I agree with you about never really knowing what is mundane and what truly matters. How are we supposed to know what small decision is going to lead to big opportunities? Even the tiny thoughts you think affect your behavior and your behavior can make or break an important life opportunity.


    108.5.6 Your transient and ever-changing emotions of joy and sorrow are in the main purely human and material reactions to your internal psychic climate and to your external material environment. Do not, therefore, look to the Adjuster for selfish consolation and mortal comfort. It is the business of the Adjuster to prepare you for the eternal adventure, to assure your survival. It is not the mission of the Mystery Monitor to smooth your ruffled feelings or to minister to your injured pride; it is the preparation of your soul for the long ascending career that engages the attention and occupies the time of the Adjuster.



    111.7.2 May I admonish you to heed the distant echo of the Adjuster’s faithful call to your soul? The indwelling Adjuster cannot stop or even materially alter your career struggle of time; the Adjuster cannot lessen the hardships of life as you journey on through this world of toil. The divine indweller can only patiently forbear while you fight the battle of life as it is lived on your planet; but you could, if you only would — as you work and worry, as you fight and toil — permit the valiant Adjuster to fight with you and for you. You could be so comforted and inspired, so enthralled and intrigued, if you would only allow the Adjuster constantly to bring forth the pictures of the real motive, the final aim, and the eternal purpose of all this difficult, uphill struggle with the commonplace problems of your present material world.

  17. I never paid any attention to my dreams because I was instructed not to by the UB. But when things that I dreamt started happening in real life so frequently, there was no way I could ignore the phenomenon anymore.


    And there's been a few more times this has happened, but I've written enough. I just have to say that I've never had a prophetic dream that was happy. They're always about tough times. Bonita's dream was also about tough times. It must be God's way of giving us comfort through trials.



    • 110.5.5 It is extremely dangerous to postulate as to the Adjuster content of the dream life. The Adjusters do work during sleep, but your ordinary dream experiences are purely physiologic and psychologic phenomena. Likewise, it is hazardous to attempt the differentiation of the Adjusters' concept registry from the more or less continuous and conscious reception of the dictations of mortal conscience. These are problems which will have to be solved through individual discrimination and personal decision. But a human being would do better to err in rejecting an Adjuster's expression through believing it to be a purely human experience than to blunder into exalting a reaction of the mortal mind to the sphere of divine dignity. Remember, the influence of a Thought Adjuster is for the most part, though not wholly, a superconscious experience.

    Although on the surface it looks like we are being told "not to pay attention to our dreams", I think if you dig deeper into how the Adjuster does use every means possible to communicate to us, including dreams, it is our mind that does not "cooperate" in it's reception and ability to discern the messages. That is what makes it "dangerous." Either the Thought Adjuster can come to a place of dispensing with that type of communication, or you may become able to discern the messages because of your soul consciousness.




    • 5.2.5 It is exceedingly difficult for the meagerly spiritualized, material mind of mortal man to experience marked consciousness of the spirit activities of such divine entities as the Paradise Adjusters. As the soul of joint mind and Adjuster creation becomes increasingly existent, there also evolves a new phase of soul consciousness which is capable of experiencing the presence, and of recognizing the spirit leadings and other supermaterial activities, of the Mystery Monitors.


    • 108.6.7 The Adjusters are the eternal ancestors, the divine originals, of your evolving immortal souls; they are the unceasing urge that leads man to attempt the mastery of the material and present existence in the light of the spiritual and future career. The Monitors are the prisoners of undying hope, the founts of everlasting progression. And how they do enjoy communicating with their subjects in more or less direct channels! How they rejoice when they can dispense with symbols and other methods of indirection and flash their messages straight to the intellects of their human partners!

    Dreams are symbols.


    Old Soul

  18. Hello Teobeck, bonita, all,


    I want to remind readers that Thought Adjusters are pre- personal. They are not persons, and they are not visible:


    No one, myself included, dare dash one's personal experience. On the other hand I wonder how these types of experiences advance the teachings of Jesus on our world. Do these varied experiences make one a better person? A better righteousness recommender?


    All the best,



    • 110:1.2 I wish it were possible for me to help evolving mortals to achieve a better understanding and attain a fuller appreciation of the unselfish and superb work of the Adjusters living within them, who are so devoutly faithful to the task of fostering man's spiritual welfare. These Monitors are efficient ministers to the higher phases of men's minds; they are wise and experienced manipulators of the spiritual potential of the human intellect. These heavenly helpers are dedicated to the stupendous task of guiding you safely inward and upward to the celestial haven of happiness. These tireless toilers are consecrated to the future personification of the triumph of divine truth in your life everlasting. They are the watchful workers who pilot the God-conscious human mind away from the shoals of evil while expertly guiding the evolving soul of man toward the divine harbors of perfection on far-distant and eternal shores. The Adjusters are loving leaders, your safe and sure guides through the dark and uncertain mazes of your short earthly career; they are the patient teachers who so constantly urge their subjects forward in the paths of progressive perfection. They are the careful custodians of the sublime values of creature character. I wish you could love them more, co-operate with them more fully, and cherish them more affectionately.

    • 5:2.4 It is because of this God fragment that indwells you that you can hope, as you progress in harmonizing with the Adjuster's spiritual leadings, more fully to discern the presence and transforming power of those other spiritual influences that surround you and impinge upon you but do not function as an integral part of you. The fact that you are not intellectually conscious of close and intimate contact with the indwelling Adjuster does not in the least disprove such an exalted experience. The proof of fraternity with the divine Adjuster consists wholly in the nature and extent of the fruits of the spirit which are yielded in the life experience of the individual believer. "By their fruits you shall know them."


    • 5:2.5 It is exceedingly difficult for the meagerly spiritualized, material mind of mortal man to experience marked consciousness of the spirit activities of such divine entities as the Paradise Adjusters. As the soul of joint mind and Adjuster creation becomes increasingly existent, there also evolves a new phase of soul consciousness which is capable of experiencing the presence, and of recognizing the spirit leadings and other supermaterial activities, of the Mystery Monitors.
    • 5:1.5 However Urantia mortals may differ in their intellectual, social, economic, and even moral opportunities and endowments, forget not that their spiritual endowment is uniform and unique. They all enjoy the same divine presence of the gift from the Father, and they are all equally privileged to seek intimate personal communion with this indwelling spirit of divine origin, while they may all equally choose to accept the uniform spiritual leading of these Mystery Monitors.

    I think there is something to be said about the Thought Adjusters being the "impersonal presence of the Universal Father," yet they are always being spoken of as being "loving leaders", "delighted to contribute to your health, happiness, and true prosperity," and in 110:0.1 "As far as I am conversant with the affairs of a universe, I regard the love and devotion of a Thought Adjuster as the most truly divine affection in all creation." That doesn't sound "impersonal" to me.


    There are many other instances throughout The Urantia Book that speak of the Adjuster in this way and makes me reconsider what "pre-personal" and "impersonal" might have meant to the revelators that we might not be understanding correctly.


    The dictionary says: impersonal is "not engaging the human personality or emotions", and " not existing as a person : not having human qualities or characteristics"


    If this is so, and The Urantia Book asks us to love them more, says we can have an intimate, personal relationship with them and realize their love for us, then somewhere we have not understood the reality of who and what the Thought Adjuster is, nor have we understood the true meaning of "pre-personal" and "impersonal."


    The Urantia Book also says that only a person can love another person and yet we are asked to love and to realize the love of our Adjusters. How can this be?


    I think the more our souls evolve and the more soul conscious we become of our Thought Adjuster the more "personal" he becomes. I also think "pre-personal" may mean "having the potential of becoming personal."


    Any thoughts?


    Old Soul

  19. pg. 1948


    "The unbelievers will not at first listen to the teachings of this spirit, but the sons of light will all receive him gladly and with a whole heart."


    Who are the sons of light? :)



    I just came across this thread and wanted to add to it:


    • 180.4.1 4. THE PROMISED HELPER Jesus continued to teach, saying: "When I have gone to the Father, and after he has fully accepted the work I have done for you on earth, and after I have received the final sovereignty of my own domain, I shall say to my Father: Having left my children alone on earth, it is in accordance with my promise to send them another teacher. And when the Father shall approve, I will pour out the Spirit of Truth upon all flesh. Already is my Father's spirit in your hearts, and when this day shall come, you will also have me with you even as you now have the Father. This new gift is the spirit of living truth. The unbelievers will not at first listen to the teachings of this spirit, but the sons of light will all receive him gladly and with a whole heart. And you shall know this spirit when he comes even as you have known me, and you will receive this gift in your hearts, and he will abide with you. You thus perceive that I am not going to leave you without help and guidance. I will not leave you desolate. Today I can be with you only in person. In the times to come I will be with you and all other men who desire my presence, wherever you may be, and with each of you at the same time. Do you not discern that it is better for me to go away; that I leave you in the flesh so that I may the better and the more fully be with you in the spirit?

    It is obvious, to me, that the "sons of light" are those who "receive Him (the Spirit of Truth) gladly and with a whole heart. They are those who recognize their sonship, Faith-sons. Those who do not receive Him gladly and with a whole heart nor recognize their sonship are not yet filled with the light of Truth and are not as yet Faith-sons. They operate out of the "darkness" which is still prevelant in their minds and hearts.




    • 52.7.13 It is the mortals of such an age who are described as "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, an exalted people; and you shall show forth the praises of Him who has called you out of darkness into this marvelous light."


    • 162.7.3 " If God were your Father, you would know me and love the truth which I reveal. Will you not see that I come forth from the Father, that I am sent by God, that I am not doing this work of myself? Why do you not understand my words? Is it because you have chosen to become the children of evil? If you are the children of darkness, you will hardly walk in the light of the truth which I reveal. The children of evil follow only in the ways of their father, who was a deceiver and stood not for the truth because there came to be no truth in him. But now comes the Son of Man speaking and living the truth, and many of you refuse to believe."


    • 1.2.4 The existence of God can never be proved by scientific experiment or by the pure reason of logical deduction. God can be realized only in the realms of human experience; nevertheless, the true concept of the reality of God is reasonable to logic, plausible to philosophy, essential to religion, and indispensable to any hope of personality survival.

    I have an atheist uncle who demands something "physical" to prove God's existence. Since that is already supplied by the matterial creation itself the only thing left is his faith born out of experience.


    If we could prove God's existence we would not need faith.


  21. Do you have any further information about the sun mentioned? It wasn't clear if the reference

    one billion times was to mass, diameter, volume or luminosity, or something else!




    Thanks for your contribution. I have tried to remember this for sure, but because of my reaction (and the person I was with at the time) I tend to believe they said 1 billion times in size rather than volume. I could be mistaken. My reaction was very strong and extremely amazed by the statement made at the time and they were showing a graph to depict the visual difference between our sun and one which would be 1 billion times larger.


    I am looking for a repeat of the program so that I can check that out. Until then, I assume I heard correctly.





    I do recall they talked about Antares as well, but this star was not Antares.



    Old Soul

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