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#1 Midsoniter woman

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 04:05 PM

P.592 - §3 One of the great achievements of the age of the prince is this restriction of the multiplication of mentally defective and socially unfit individuals.

P.592 - §5 It is neither tenderness nor altruism to bestow futile sympathy upon degenerated human beings, unsalvable abnormal and inferior mortals.


The talk of eugenics and moral degeneracy in the reading today has made me want to start this topic. I think I just dated the UB definition of a subnormal, a "degenerate." I think he may have no Thought Adjuster. He's like a dog. Tell me what you guys think. Maybe other UB readers have had similar experiences? I didn't know that men like this even existed.

He was the guy I liked for about half a year and then he finally asked me out. I had been admiring him from afar for a long, long time. It was like a dream come true to have the man you've been admiring for so long finally ask you out. That's why it took me so long to break up with him even after I saw the signs of degeneracy. He was one of the best dancers at the club. He was 6 foot 4 inches, thin, well-built, blonde hair in a pony tail, blue eyes, great smile, nice beard, good dresser. He had a lively and cheerful personality with a great sense of humor. He was in his early 60's, but very attractive. He did day trading on his lap top for money and said he had a law degree. He said he couldn't get a job because he failed the bar 8 times. But I liked that he didn't drink or smoke. Sometimes he made $100 a day in day trading and other times he made nothing. We'll just call him Brian to protect his identity.

It was immediately apparent that he didn't have the best hygiene in the world, but I've dated guys who smelled worse. I decided to try to work with him about it. But after a couple of weeks, I realized that he wasn't showering or changing his clothes or brushing his teeth at all ever. So I had to start asking him to. He would just look at me like he didn't know what I was talking about. Before I would go with him anywhere, I would make him take a shower. I noticed that I had to tell him to put on clean clothes after his shower because otherwise he would put on the same dirty clothes that he was wearing before his shower. But it would always turn into an argument. A big argument. I also had to demand that he give me his dirty laundry so I could wash it for him. He tried to fight me on that too. I was offering to do his laundry for him. He wouldn't even have to do the work. And he still didn't want his clothes washed. But I wouldn't go out with him otherwise so he begrudgingly consented. This turned into a regular struggle.

He also had a penchant for chewing the same piece of gum for days on end. He would take the gum out and set it on the counter and then put it back in his mouth over and over again. I tried to throw it away, but he protested.

I knew I couldn't ever be physically intimate with him until I taught him some hygiene, but I thought it would be an easy thing to teach someone. Beside, nobody is perfect, I told myself.

I thought he was having just temporary tough times when he told me that he ate at a soup kitchen and had no place to live right now. Everyone has temporary troubles sometimes, I told myself. I thought maybe it had something to do with the fact that the room he was renting had asked him to leave because the other tenants complained about him.

I went with him and his friend many times as they drove around looking at houses for sale. He said he was looking to buy a house. There was an unlocked garage and a shed open in one of the houses. We walked in and that's when his buddy said, "Here's a place for you to sleep, Brian." I started laughing so hard as I thought that was a very funny joke. I just shook my head and blew it off as good humor. Wait, it gets creepier.

He came over one day smelling like a trash dumpster. I've never seen him in such a happy mood, though. There was a couple brown bags full of stuff that he said he "bought." But it stank of garbage. He started setting the items out on my living room. They were useless items that I didn't need. I told him to get rid of that stuff because it stank and I had no need of it. He was shocked!!!! He thought I would be as happy as he was to have found free "stuff." He looked like I really hurt his feelings.

I began to discern that this man was what is referred to as a "hoarder." He had found stuff in a dumpster and thought to start piling it in my apartment. He said that my apartment was really big and there was a lot of space for him to "put stuff." After pressing him, he admitted that he found the cap he was wearing in a dumpster that day, but it was a perfectly good cap and he was thrilled, just thrilled, to have found it. He was truly thrilled. You could see the excitement in his face. He was crushed when I made him put it in the laundry. I told him that he was not allowed to bring garbage into my apartment ever again and he was crushed.

He kept offering to sell my car and other belongings and move me out of my apartment to live with him. He kept disapproving of my apartment as an unnecessary luxury. He was in the process of buying a van that he said he was going to remove the seats and turn the van into a place to live and sleep.

I had just recently had to apply for full disability since my military injury has gotten worse. He said he wanted in on my "scam." He went on and on about what a good "hustle" my military injury will be for us. I was so disgusted with the way he kept insinuating that my injury was fake just to get out of working that I exploded at him in a rage. He said I was choosing to be disabled, which really infuriated me. I have extreme pain from my injury every day that he was totally insensitive to. That's when I realized that his lifestyle was a choice, not just temporary tough times. He was happy and cheerful in his disposition about his lifestyle too, which I find baffling. How could anyone be happy and cheerful about choosing his kind of lifestyle?

Another clue was when he asked me if we could get a cat or a dog. I'm allergic, but that's beside the point. I explained that I'm waiting for disability and for my injury to improve and that I'm not even self-supporting right now so there would be no way to support a pet. He argued that we have food stamps. That's when I freaked out and told him that food stamps are just a temporary emergency kind of thing, not something to be thought of as income. Then he argued with me about food stamps being a temporary emergency kind of thing. He said as long as we qualify, we should always live on them and get a cat also. I'm not making this up. He actually said this stuff. I couldn't make this up. This is when I realized that he was a lifestyle bum.

Everyone likes to get free stuff now and again, but this guy talked non-stop about how to get out of paying everything every day. Every day he would try to talk people into giving him something for free. It really started getting on my nerves. If I had a family member around he would try to get money or favors from them. I exploded at him and told him that was extremely inappropriate to ask me or any member of my family for money. He didn't seem to understand. He would just shrug and say that he was good for a loan. I tried to explain the inappropriateness of asking people for loans every day. It doesn't matter whether you are good for a loan or not. It's just not appropriate conversation, I explained.

Then when I was giving my brother a ride because he had too much to drink, Brian tried to invite himself over to my brother's house. My brother freaked out. I told Brian that was extremely inappropriate to just invite yourself over to someone's house out of the blue like that. And I couldn't understand the reasons behind this weird behavior.

He would come over to my apartment every day and want to use my stuff, my computer, my food, my water, etc. I had to ask him for the cash to pay for it as he was using so much of it. He would use my kitchen to heat up something I believe was from the soup kitchen down the street, but he would insist on using the same dirty dishes over and over again. He would complain every time I turned on the dishwasher. He said it wasn't necessary to run the dishwasher and that it was better to use dirty dishes. He would actually open the dishwasher and pull out dirty dishes to use instead of using clean ones from the cupboard. I began to plan my break up with him.

Then he admitted that he wasn't actually renting a room from that house he lived in. He was paying the owner a little bit of money to live in the guy's back yard.

The final straw was the time he pretended to brush his teeth in front of me, but he was standing in the living room facing a wall. He wasn't in the bathroom. There was no sink or running water. It was like he was just pretending to brush his teeth in front of me, but he didn't even know how to do that. It's like no on ever taught him how. So I decided I had to break up with him immediately.

After I told him on three separate occasions to get out of my life, he kept calling and emailing. Then Brian emailed and said he got arrested sleeping in one of those houses for sale. He wanted me to come to his trial. That's when I realized that his buddy wasn't joking when he said there was an open shed for him to sleep in. He was really sleeping in sheds and empty houses as a lifestyle. I tried to get a restraining order, but the judge said he wasn't threatening my life so there was nothing the courts could do. But good thing the guy left me alone finally.

This all came as a big shock to me to learn that there really are people like this in the world. I always heard that they existed, but this was my first time meeting one. I'm still in a state of shock.

Edited by Midsoniter woman, 22 January 2011 - 04:14 PM.

"If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man's rights, then sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men (Urantia Book, 938)."

#2 Bonita

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 06:08 PM

Sorry you had to go through that Jessica. There are thousands of these people in each and every city. I've cared for them in ER's, OR's and ICU's. I've heard all the tricks of "beating the system" to get welfare checks and all manner of free stuff from people under "truth serum" in the OR. (People talk uninhibited while under sedation). Yes, it is not just a few isolated people in society who know how to use the system and make it a lifestyle. There are millions of them who take tremendous pride in it. It is a subculture unto itself. It is helping to bleed our country dry; but many of these people are genuinely mentally ill while some are just ignorant, having never learned any other way to live. We have allowed this under-culture to continue, we created it and we continue to feed it because we have no idea how to stop the monster, now that Frankenstein lives.

Who has the courage to face this, let alone fix it? NO ONE It's the elephant in the room and society continues to ignore and marginalize these people. It continues to throw goodies at them to placate them, keep them quiet and happy, rather than deal with them. It is a societal sickness which most people are oblivious to. I'm glad you saw it but sorry you had to deal with it alone.

So, did your sick fellow have children? Did he spawn his potentially defective genes?

Edited by Bonita, 22 January 2011 - 10:16 PM.


#3 rock

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 09:51 PM

This all came as a big shock to me to learn that there really are people like this in the world. I always heard that they existed, but this was my first time meeting one. I'm still in a state of shock.


Any time you meet a person who clearly is not mentally fit to take care of any children, then you know that the same person is not fit to reproduce. Hey, doesn't that sound like eugenics?

#4 Bonita

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 11:30 AM

130.8.4 At last they reached Naples and felt they were not far from their destination, Rome. Gonod had much business to transact in Naples, and aside from the time Jesus was required as interpreter, he and Ganid spent their leisure visiting and exploring the city. Ganid was becoming adept at sighting those who appeared to be in need. They found much poverty in this city and distributed many alms. But Ganid never understood the meaning of Jesus’ words when, after he had given a coin to a street beggar, he refused to pause and speak comfortingly to the man. Said Jesus: “Why waste words upon one who cannot perceive the meaning of what you say? The spirit of the Father cannot teach and save one who has no capacity for sonship.” What Jesus meant was that the man was not of normal mind; that he lacked the ability to respond to spirit leading.



This quote sheds much light on this subject of how we should handle unfit individuals. First, Jesus offered only the help this individual was capable of receiving. Jesus did attend to this person's physical needs, but ignored what appeared to be his mental and spiritual needs because there was no way that he could help him, short of a miracle. Likewise, Jesus never did perform a miracle like that. He never created a receptive capacity where there was not a desire for such.

There has to be a level of mental and spiritual receptivity in order for God to teach (change, adjust) an individual. We are not capable of making this determination at the level that Jesus was able, but a person's fruits should give us an indication of what is going on or not going on within the inner life of what we determine to be a "defective" individual. Jessica's friend had plenty of rotten fruit to make this obvious to even the most belligerent socioreligious optimist.

#5 Teobeck

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 12:06 PM

I agree generally with what has been said, but would like to add:

This is partially a social phenomena that has spread due to urbanization, and increased upward mobility which requires education. The problem was much smaller as a percentage of population when society was mainly agricultural. The U.S. economy has become 80% services, and the agricultural and manufacturing base has dwindled. People do find jobs in small business, but the wages won't meet expenses.

Slavery exacerbated matters, and even Abe Lincoln said that the integration of slaves into society would take 300 years, and its only been 145 so far.

Wars have added many vets with mental problems to the rolls of homeless. Many more people have mental problems and no medical care. The mental institutions have closed. Society makes it very difficult for for ex-cons to reintegrate and survive even when they want to. Thus many have both real mental and physical problems. Half of the NY Latino population has diabetes.

Drugs exacerbate the problem, increasing crime to feed habits.

TUB talks about us finding a way to redistribute employment as one partial solution.

Communism and facism exacerbated the problem in their own way, and now capitalism has spawned materialism, which also doesn't work for these less educated people. This is also what brought Rome down (see TUB).

I agree that the problem exists big time in urban areas, and to a lesser extent in the hinterland.

I just wanted to break out some of the parts, so as to state that many of these people are salvable, as not all are degenerate. I have seen many young unwed mothers make it through the work of the Capitol Hill Group Ministry, and so many other "hands on" charities. I have seen bikers accept Christ and change their lives. I have seen alcoholics make it through AA and 12 steps and become productive.

I was an alcoholic once myself. Now I have educated 5 kids and have a 32 year marriage. I was fortunately educated and had some skills, and, after a trip to heaven, I have God to thank.

I also understand why so many give up, as sometimes the problems are so daunting they can't overcome. You would be surprised at how nice many of these people are not degenerate, just helpless.

Edited by Teobeck, 23 January 2011 - 12:10 PM.


#6 Midsoniter woman

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 12:45 PM

Hi, everyone. Yes, Bonita, he said he had a daughter, but he was not in contact with her. They have no relationship. He said his wife turned him in for some crime he committed and he was sent to prison. He said he was so angry at the wife for turning him in that he left her and the daughter forever. Thank God I never really even so much as kissed the guy.

But I'm not so sure that this is society's creation. Brian had a law degree and was very strong and healthy. He lived this lifestyle because that is what makes him happy. You should have seen the joy after dumpster diving. You should have beheld his excitement when he was trying to use my apartment to pile garbage and hoard useless junk. I mean, society had nothing to do with that kind of behavior, in my opinion. I believe this guy had some animal inheritance genes that began to come out in his later adult life even though it may not have shown during his youth.

I mean, I have heard jokes about odd people in the news who hoard garbage and keep cats on food stamps, but I never thought of them as real and I never thought I would fall in love with one at the same dance club I've gone to for years. I thought bums stayed on the street. I didn't know that they come inside and pretend to fit in with society.

Perhaps his good upbringing could have temporarily hidden his bad heredity. I thought of this quote about heredity vs. environment. I see Brian as the opposite of Abel in this quote. Abel's good inheritance was spoiled by a bad environment, but Abel's genes would have asserted themselves had he lived to around thirty. Brian's hidden animal inheritance probably asserted itself in his later years and thereby spoiling his good environmental upbringing.


(848.6) 76:2.6 The observation of Abel’s conduct establishes the value of environment and education as factors in character development. Abel had an ideal inheritance, and heredity lies at the bottom of all character; but the influence of an inferior environment virtually neutralized this magnificent inheritance. Abel, especially during his younger years, was greatly influenced by his unfavorable surroundings. He would have become an entirely different person had he lived to be twenty-five or thirty; his superb inheritance would then have shown itself. While a good environment cannot contribute much toward really overcoming the character handicaps of a base heredity, a bad environment can very effectively spoil an excellent inheritance, at least during the younger years of life.




Teobeck, the reason I don't think this guy is just a helpless victim is the joy and glee he exhibited in his lifestyle. I mean, I would be inconsolable if I had to sleep in an empty house for sale. I would be inconsolable if I didn't have access to showers and laundry facilities. I would be inconsolable if I had to dig through a dumpster. But this guy had access to my shower and I had to fight with him to get him to use it. I offered to do his laundry and he fought me about it. He has a bachelor's degree. He's not injured in any way. There are jobs out there even if they aren't in his field.

Bonita used the word pride to describe the bums that she met in the hospital. Brian had pride in being dirty and filthy and sleeping for free in sheds. It's his pride and cheerful demeanor that really shocked me. When you first meet this guy, you are tricked into thinking he's doing very well just because he's so contented. Only an animal could be content in that lifestyle.

Edited by Midsoniter woman, 23 January 2011 - 12:59 PM.

"If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man's rights, then sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men (Urantia Book, 938)."

#7 Bonita

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 02:15 PM

I mean, I have heard jokes about odd people in the news who hoard garbage and keep cats on food stamps, but I never thought of them as real and I never thought I would fall in love with one at the same dance club I've gone to for years. I thought bums stayed on the street. I didn't know that they come inside and pretend to fit in with society.


Yes, there are many who do not appear defective outwardly but live a secret life inwardly, which is revealed once you get to know them on a personal level. I've been where you were myself, having befriended quite a number of these people. Oddly enough, a lot of them work in the Church, laity and clergy alike, because the Church is responsible for promoting what TUB calls "futile sympathy" and what I call saccharine pity on people who do not warrant it. It's an odd human characteristic which allows an aberrant belief to be established by people who profit from that very aberrant belief. How else could such an institution maintain itself so long? Because it is used to shelter those who really want the shelter; the ones with defects make the rules concerning the ones with defects . . . and lo and behold, we have an institution rife with defects supporting outreach designed to foster further defect. It's a win/win situation for the defective. They become the victims and everyone else has to be altruistic towards them. It is owed to them according to the rules of social justice established by the defectives themselves. Sweet. And the rest of us are chumps, too afraid to say, "Wait a minute, this just isn't right; you've got it backwards!!", because we look like fools or cold-hearted monsters who won't take pity on so-called unfortunate and needy souls.

"We've been hoodwinked!" I'll never forget when a friend of mine said that when visiting my house with her husband and two young children, ages 5 and 7. It was getting late but we were still at the table talking. I didn't want to disturb the mood, so I called to my twin boys, age 5, and told them to go up and take showers and get their PJ's on. About five minutes later, my friend excused herself and went upstairs. She returned very shortly and announced loudly, in a shrill, incredulous voice, "I can't believe it! We've been hoodwinked!". She could not believe that five year olds were capable of taking their own shower and dressing themselves. Her own children had whined and cried about not being able to do these things so she had been doing it for them as though they were still infants. It never occurred to her that her children were manipulating her. It never occurred to her that children are actually capable of doing these things. The thought never, ever entered her mind. These two kids hoodwinked their parents about more than just showers though. They both turned out, now in their twenties, with major psychological problems and neither are contributing citizens of society.

Besides the fostering of incompetency there is another phenomenon at play here. Some of these people cannot help themselves because they do not see that there is anything wrong with themselves. Then, there are those who might see the problem but blame it on anything or anyone other than themselves. Some have actually hit what normal folks would call "rock bottom" and it turns out that some people like "rock bottom". Those who discover that they don't like it will change. They will find a way to change. That is the teaching of the Tao and it is the teaching of TUB as well. They will look for help from some place, from God or from other people. Jesus describes "rock bottom" as reaching the point of complete self-dissatisfaction; he clearly states that those who want help will ask for it.

p1466:02 Ganid, the man was not hungry for truth. He was not dissatisfied with himself. He was not ready to ask for help, and the eyes of his mind were not open to receive light for the soul. That man was not ripe for the harvest of salvation; he must be allowed more time for the trials and difficulties of life to prepare him for the reception of wisdom and higher learning.



What we are so poor at doing is determining which plea for help is genuine and which is manipulative. I've discovered a way . . . it has to do with my own "truth detector", but it is not easy to teach these things. Even Jesus couldn't teach it. He insisted that no alms were given unless he personally approved or at least two apostles agreed.

140.8.13 He made it clear that indiscriminate kindness may be blamed for many social evils. The following day Jesus definitely instructed Judas that no apostolic funds were to be given out as alms except upon his request or upon the joint petition of two of the apostles.



Sometimes it takes getting to know someone before it can be determined whether or not you're being hoodwinked. It took a while for Jessica to realize that Brian is a social parasite. Experience is an excellent teacher; she probably won't be hoodwinked as easily ever again. And for the record, we know that Jesus did not approve of social parasites:

140.8.12 He did not teach his apostles that they were to be imposed upon by social parasites or professional alms-seekers.



#8 Teobeck

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 02:18 PM

Sounds mental rather than criminal or evil. Maybe his failed marriage affected him adversely. He evidently at one time set goals, i.e. to get an education. Wanting to be dirty and homeless could be a manifestation of many mental conditions which I'm sure Bonita could name. I'm just pointing out that he doesn't seem to follow the normal definition of degenerate, i.e. corrupt, vulgar, vicious behavior, especially sexual perversion. He seems more self immolating.

#9 Bonita

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Posted 23 January 2011 - 02:50 PM

Here's a quote from www.livescience.com:

Gene research suggests that a region on chromosome 14 may be linked with compulsive hoarding in families with OCD. The study, carried out by a team from Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine in March 2007, analyzed samples from 999 OCD patients in 219 families. Families with two or more hoarding relatives showed a unique pattern on chromosome 14, whereas the other families’ OCD was linked to chromosome 3.

This was the third study to find genetic markers specifically associated with compulsive hoarding, according to Sanjaya Saxena, M.D., director of the University of California, San Diego, Obsessive-Compulsive Disorders Program.



#10 Midsoniter woman

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 10:42 AM

I found this quote about the emotion of disgust. Only humans feel the emotion of disgust. Animals don't have the emotion of disgust. Brian didn't feel any disgust when he was dirty or digging through garbage.

(705.5) 62:3.6 A number of rudimentary human traits appeared in this new species. In addition to the innate propensities exhibited by their ancestors, these mid-mammals were capable of showing disgust in certain repulsive situations.

Only animals could enjoy digging through trash dumpsters. This is an animal vestige. I used to have pet dogs when I was a kid and I still remember my outrage and disgust whenever I would come home to find the dog had gone through the trash can and licked it and ate it and so forth. You just want to choke the dog and say, "No no no no no no. That's trash. Don't lick that!!!!!!!!!!!" But next month you forget to put the trash out of the dog's reach and the dog will go through the trash again. That's the downside to owning a dog. He has no sense of disgust so therefore, his master has to restrain him and keep him clean.

So humans who enjoy going through trash must have some kind of animal gene.

Bonita, it's so true. Brian is not dissatisfied with himself. He is happy as a clam. I'm glad Jesus understands how difficult it is for us to discriminate between real needy people and professional alms-seekers like Brian. I just still can't believe that a professional alms-seeker would come inside and mingle with polite society. I thought they stayed on the street corners. That's what really threw me off guard. I met him in a dance club, not on a street corner. If I had met him on a street corner, I wouldn't have given him the time of day. We gotta start keeping the dogs outside where they belong.

I also told Brian that I thought his parents were to blame for his lack of hygiene. Brian told me that his parents were wealthy, even millionares, and raised him to shower and brush his teeth and he said it wasn't his parents fault that he didn't like to shower. His wealthy parents put him through law school at the University of Wisconsin. His parents paid for him to take the bar exam eight times. He said he stopped showering later on in life. That's what made me think hidden animal heredity reared it's head when he hit his thirties. His childhood training wore off and his heredity asserted itself. Just like Abel's good heredity would have asserted itself if he were to have lived to thirty. Maybe animal heredity asserts itself later in life to spoil good parenting.

Bonita, I loved the story about your kids showering all by themselves at age 5. That reminds me of the time I was 19 years old and working as a nanny to a very wealthy family. My first week working for them, the little 5-year-old girl told me that she couldn't go to the bathroom by herself and that I had to wipe her. She spoke perfect English, but somehow couldn't wipe herself? I decided to tell her to start wiping herself immediately as she was way too old to be asking adults to wipe her. She should have been potty trained already. She got mad and told her mother on me. Her mother promptly fired me. Oh, well.

As for those kids who were resisting their bath time, that was probably a sign of animal legacy right there. All children I've ever met love and relish bath time. They could play in the tub for hours if you didn't make them finish their business and get to bed. Really, something's not human about being dirty. That's an animal urge, in my opinion. Animal genes that shouldn't be reproduced. And the fact that they are not contributing to society to this day proves my point about animal heredity.


Thanks for your input Teobeck and Bonita and Rock. It means a lot to me to be able to discuss this event in light of the Urantia revelation and come to understand the meaning behind it.
"If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man's rights, then sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men (Urantia Book, 938)."

#11 Bonita

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Posted 24 January 2011 - 11:41 AM

Hey Jessica,

I'm beginning to think that what you call animal heredity is a complex set of issues. In the case of the OCD type of hoarding, they've discovered that not only does a part of the brain not function properly but the entire brain metabolizes glucose using an alternate pathway which results in a significant chemical imbalance in the brain. The mind adjutants, the Adjuster and other spirit forces within the mind may find it very difficult to function in such an environment. It's like trying to start a fire without oxygen.

Perhaps the lower animal adjutant mind spirits are able to make contact and function in such a mental environment, which is why the behavior of these people decline to the level of highest mind adjutant that is able to function. It looks as though Brian only got as far as the beginning of the fourth adjutant:

36:5.9 4. The spirit of knowledge—the curiosity-mother of adventure and discovery, the scientific spirit; the guide and faithful associate of the spirits of courage and counsel; the urge to direct the endowments of courage into useful and progressive paths of growth.



He was a curious fellow who found dumpster diving a extreme adventure of discovery. He was courageous in his attempts at self-preservation but was unable to fully allow this spirit to translate his experiences into progressive paths of growth which would bring him to the fifth adjutant, which would have helped him bring himself to a level of self-control in order to harmonize with society.

36:5.10 5. The spirit of counsel—the social urge, the endowment of species co-operation; the ability of will creatures to harmonize with their fellows; the origin of the gregarious instinct among the more lowly creatures.



As for the case of Brian and others like him, I think that society has a moral obligation to control people who function at the level of the lower mind adjutants. This will sound very cruel to some, but I use it as an analogy. We should treat them like we treat our pets. They need constant baby sitting and stern limits. I'm not suggesting we treat them like cattle, but more like endearing pets. (Some people treat their pets very, very well.) I know that there will always be those who hope for cures and conversions. I'm not saying we should give up on that. If my 22 year old sons should suddenly return, at age 30, to their animal vestiges, I would want to know that I tried everything I could to help them. I think we owe that kind of effort to all people, but while we attempt cures and conversions, we have to limit the degree by which they are allowed to suck on the teat of civilization or worse, allowed to destroy it.

Edited by Bonita, 24 January 2011 - 11:43 AM.


#12 Midsoniter woman

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Posted 25 January 2011 - 03:55 PM

That's funny. I agree that Brian probably had very limited response to the 5th adjutant, but that is the UB definition of an animal. Animals only respond to the lower adjutants.

(709.5) 62:6.4 Increasingly, on down through the dawn mammals, the mid-mammals, and the Primates, we had observed the augmented service of the first five adjutants. But never had the remaining two, the highest mind ministers, been able to function in the Urantia type of evolutionary mind.
(709.6) 62:6.5 Imagine our joy one day — the twins were about ten years old — when the spirit of worship made its first contact with the mind of the female twin and shortly thereafter with the male.



So if Brian is responding only to the lower 5 adjutants, that would make him a sub human, a sub human animal. And if he is not responding to adjutant number 5, that would make him lower than an animal.

As regards the social urge of adjutant number 5, Brian was one of those guys you might call "chatty." He never does shut up, not for one minute. He also loves to start arguments too.

But you are right about the fact that he doesn't want to fit in with polite society even though he does fit in at the soup kitchen. I met one of his buddies who also sleeps in empty houses for sale along with him. They are a team.

So whether or not Brian tries to fit in depends on the society. As you pointed out, bums have their own society now. They have camaraderie and support for their ways. The way Brian argued with me so confidently against cleanliness made me think that he had his views reinforced from some kind of social environment even though he couldn't have had his views reinforced by the same society that I live in. He and I must have been living in two different societies, I in the normal society and him in the underground society.

Assuming he doesn't respond to the human adjutants is a very good scientific guess. Because I remember him telling me that he was an atheist. I always hide the UB when I first start dating someone out of fear of scaring them away, but after I realized he wasn't someone I wanted to date anymore, I made no more effort to hide the UB from him. I even invited him to come with me to my Tuesday night study group. He took one look at the UB and put it down immediately. He had absolutely nothing to say about it. He changed the subject quickly.

I love the research in your post, Bonita. Thank you.
"If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man's rights, then sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men (Urantia Book, 938)."

#13 FTFSGRL

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 03:39 AM

WOW.

I am disheartened after reading this thread.

I don't even know where to begin.
This sounds more like in the schizophrenia spectrum to me.
Detachment from true reality (psychosis).

Funny how I remember that Father loves ALL of his children, but yet every single one of you is putting down this guy for how he lives.
Whether I agree or disagree with how he lives, it is ultimately his choice. No one has offered and stuck by this guy for him to receive proper treatment? Being homeless in the states I bet is VERY ROUGH, more-so than here in Canada. At least health care remains covered in Canada even when homeless.

Yes, of course Jesus would not minister to this type of fellow, spiritually. He would not comprehend it. (although if he did have a law degree, he would be of high intelligence and intellect...which at this point is not the case) If this guy was looked after, basic needs, mental health care and became stable etc, then would Jesus minister to him I bet (in an appropriate manner to his capacity)

I might add that no, it may not be the 'animal instinct' that has this fellow being homeless. No one knows how this guy was raised, truthfully. I don't think 'Brian' was all that honest to begin with. What was his environment like growing up?
No one can say for sure, maybe not even 'Brian' at this point.

:D

#14 Rick Warren

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 07:01 AM

Thanks for speaking up FTFSGRL,

I too was troubled by some of the statements in this thread. The topic is worthy of discussion, but it bothered me that "Brian" wasn't here to offer his side of it, to defend himself.

Here's asking all Forum members, do your best to avoid derogatory statements about anyone, member or not, please focus on the issue at hand. Personal attacks go against Forum rules.

Rick, Forum moderator

#15 ubizmo

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 08:30 AM

I've always been disturbed by this "eugenics" material in the UB, mainly because it is both suggestive and vague, a dangerous combination. Terms such as "mentally defective", "socially unfit", "degenerated", "unsalvable abnormal", and "inferior" are not well-defined, in the UB or elsewhere. We have all met people whom we are inclined to regard as severely broken in various ways. I honestly don't think anything is gained by trying to decide which, if any, of these terms applies to them.

Moreover, genes may be linked to other genes. Without exact knowledge of these intricate connections, attempts to "breed out" the undesirable characteristics can also jeopardize desirable ones. That region on Chromosome 14 may be involved in OCD, but what else does it do? Unless we know that, we're not in a position to say that we want to try to throw it out of the gene pool.

Todd

#16 FTFSGRL

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 10:38 AM

Question everything. That is for sure. Follow what is revealed to you in your heart. That is how truth has been given to me.

My opinion of Eugenics is .... a small blip of the mass problem of the world today.
Eugenics creates an evil, it plants an evil seed to those that are unlightened.
It also keeps the life of discrimination alive. The "I'm better than you because..." GAH We are all equal.

#17 Midsoniter woman

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 12:15 PM

The Urantia clearly says that we are not all equal. But if I said anything derogatory about Brian, I apologize. Sometimes I don't word things properly. If there is a better way to say this stuff, please teach me the better way to speak about it. But please don't tell me not to speak of it. Don't silence the whole discussion just because it is not politically correct. This is a Urantia Book forum here to discuss Urantia Book concepts. I know this discussion would be inappropriate for just about every where else. But us UB readers should be able to talk about it somehow.
"If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man's rights, then sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men (Urantia Book, 938)."

#18 Rick Warren

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Posted 25 February 2011 - 01:31 PM

The Urantia clearly says that we are not all equal. But if I said anything derogatory about Brian, I apologize. Sometimes I don't word things properly. If there is a better way to say this stuff, please teach me the better way to speak about it. But please don't tell me not to speak of it. Don't silence the whole discussion just because it is not politically correct. This is a Urantia Book forum here to discuss Urantia Book concepts. I know this discussion would be inappropriate for just about every where else. But us UB readers should be able to talk about it somehow.



The Papers I recall on the subject declare we are equally spiritually, but not physically or morally. So, you are both right.

The words that infringe on Forum rules are bums, animal and the like. If you can find a way to write about a topic without saying what you would not want to read about yourself in a public forum, that should satisfy the rules.

Forum Rules 1-3:

1. Civility. Dialogue is expected to be civil and respectful. Profanity is not permitted. Since we are communicating with diverse people of different cultural backgrounds, civility can be subjective and a common standard for civility may be difficult to define. However, if each forum member acts as a son or daughter of God, he/she will not present a problem to the forum moderators.

2. Personal attacks. Attacks upon the character, personality, heritage, beliefs, motives, or actions of any persons are unacceptable.

3. Group attacks. Attacks upon the purposes, policies, plans or procedures of any group or organization are unacceptable.



Thanks everyone.

#19 Midsoniter woman

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Posted 26 February 2011 - 12:12 PM

The Papers I recall on the subject declare we are equally spiritually, but not physically or morally. So, you are both right.

The words that infringe on Forum rules are bums, animal and the like. If you can find a way to write about a topic without saying what you would not want to read about yourself in a public forum, that should satisfy the rules.

Forum Rules 1-3:

1. Civility. Dialogue is expected to be civil and respectful. Profanity is not permitted. Since we are communicating with diverse people of different cultural backgrounds, civility can be subjective and a common standard for civility may be difficult to define. However, if each forum member acts as a son or daughter of God, he/she will not present a problem to the forum moderators.

2. Personal attacks. Attacks upon the character, personality, heritage, beliefs, motives, or actions of any persons are unacceptable.

3. Group attacks. Attacks upon the purposes, policies, plans or procedures of any group or organization are unacceptable.



Thanks everyone.




Yes, the words "bum" and "animal" are used a lot in society to describe any man whom we don't like very much. They are many times thrown around with no regard to their dictionary definition. That wasn't what I was doing. However, I will try to word things better next time just to make sure no one gets the wrong impression.
"If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man's rights, then sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men (Urantia Book, 938)."

#20 FTFSGRL

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Posted 01 March 2011 - 05:48 AM

I am going to try to get my response done here too...

So little time...lol

Ok...what you gather from reading is inequality.... what I gather from reading is differences.

Like all other characteristics, in spiritualism, physical aspects, intelligence etc.... we all are DIFFERENT. Some people are more apt than others, but those others are more apt in other departments....

For example: I bet you 'Brian' is more capable in finding great freebees than you are.... does that make you any less equal than Brian? I bet you Brian is also more capable of living with nothing... ie not knowing where food/shelter etc is going to come from.... yet, that still does not make him any less human than you.

"Make sure-footed those who stumble and stretch forth your hands to the sick. Nourish the hungry and set at ease those who are troubled. Raise up and awaken those who sleep. You are this understanding that seizes you." Book of Truth pg 251

What is the one quality that Father emanates? LOVE
What is part of showing this love? MERCY

Characteristics of personality are ALL unique to ALL individuals. Everyone has their own distinct fingerprints, just like personality, just like physical endowments or lack thereof. All humans are equal when it comes to basic necessity, food, shelter, warmth, support, understanding and love, no matter what present state they are living in.
This is my perspective and understanding of what the truth has shown me.

"Faith receives, love gives. No one receives without faith. No one gives without love. To receive, believe; to love, give."
Gospel of Philip pg 271




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