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Archeology in Abner's Philadelphia


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#21 Howard509

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:18 PM

I didn't say that the Gospel of Thomas was gnostic. You must have misunderstood what I wrote.

There is no consensus among scholars as to when the text was actually written but most agree it is from the second century AD or later and from Syria. And no one believes that it was written by the apostle Thomas, which was your assertion. If it had been written by the apostle Thomas, or written by one of his associates, it would probably have been included in the Canon.


If Thomas had just begun writing the life and teachings of Jesus weeks before his death, then the Gospel of Thomas is perhaps based on what he wrote. Scholars have accepted that the Gospels of Matthew and John weren't written by these apostles but perhaps by the communities they founded. While some scholars date Thomas to the second century, others date it to before the canonical Gospels were written. Even if it were written in the second century, it would have contained traditions about the life and teachings of Jesus from much earlier.

The point is that if you want to find an early Christian text that fits the teachings of the Urantia Book, what better example is there than Thomas?

What is the specific sect from early church history that followed Jesus' original teachings of the kingdom, as opposed to Pauline Christianity? Was it the Ebionites, the Gnostic, etc.?

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#22 Bonita

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:41 PM

What is the specific sect from early church history that followed Jesus' original teachings of the kingdom, as opposed to Pauline Christianity? Was it the Ebionites, the Gnostic, etc.?


TUB says that Abner's Eastern version was more true to Jesus' teaching than the Wester.


195:1.11 The Eastern version of the message of Jesus, notwithstanding that it remained more true to his teachings, continued to follow the uncompromising attitude of Abner. It never progressed as did the Hellenized version and was eventually lost in the Islamic movement.

130.2.3 While the eastern branch of the early Christian church, having its headquarters at Philadelphia, held more faithfully to the teachings of Jesus than did the Jerusalem brethren, it was regrettable that there was no one like Peter to go into China, or like Paul to enter India, where the spiritual soil was then so favorable for planting the seed of the new gospel of the kingdom. These very teachings of Jesus, as they were held by the Philadelphians, would have made just such an immediate and effective appeal to the minds of the spiritually hungry Asiatic peoples as did the preaching of Peter and Paul in the West.

166:5.4 Abner was more Babylonian than Hellenic in his philosophy, and he stubbornly resisted all attempts of Paul to remake the teachings of Jesus so as to present less that was objectionable, first to the Jews, then to the Greco-Roman believers in the mysteries.

#23 Rick Warren

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:44 PM

What is the specific sect from early church history that followed Jesus' original teachings of the kingdom, as opposed to Pauline Christianity? Was it the Ebionites, the Gnostic, etc.?


Have you considered the Orthodox Church?

#24 Howard509

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:46 PM

TUB says that Abner's Eastern version was more true to Jesus' teaching than the Wester.


195:1.11 The Eastern version of the message of Jesus, notwithstanding that it remained more true to his teachings, continued to follow the uncompromising attitude of Abner. It never progressed as did the Hellenized version and was eventually lost in the Islamic movement.

130.2.3 While the eastern branch of the early Christian church, having its headquarters at Philadelphia, held more faithfully to the teachings of Jesus than did the Jerusalem brethren, it was regrettable that there was no one like Peter to go into China, or like Paul to enter India, where the spiritual soil was then so favorable for planting the seed of the new gospel of the kingdom. These very teachings of Jesus, as they were held by the Philadelphians, would have made just such an immediate and effective appeal to the minds of the spiritually hungry Asiatic peoples as did the preaching of Peter and Paul in the West.

166:5.4 Abner was more Babylonian than Hellenic in his philosophy, and he stubbornly resisted all attempts of Paul to remake the teachings of Jesus so as to present less that was objectionable, first to the Jews, then to the Greco-Roman believers in the mysteries.


I already know that. What I am asking, as I've already asked in this thread, is that if these teachings spread throughout Arabia and Mesopotamia, what mentions are there of it in history? There were many sects in the early Jesus movement and we know many of them by name. Should we just take the Urantia Book's word for it, without trying to corroborate it with the historical record? Out of all the first-century sects that we're aware of from the historical record, which one followed the original teachings of the kingdom?

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
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#25 Howard509

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 12:46 PM

Have you considered the Orthodox Church?


Doesn't the Orthodox Church have teachings that the Urantia Book would describe as Pauline? And doesn't the Orthodox Church exist to this day, instead of being "overwhelmed by the sudden rise of Islam"?

Edited by Howard509, 28 January 2013 - 12:48 PM.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#26 Rick Warren

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 01:06 PM

Doesn't the Orthodox Church have teachings that the Urantia Book would describe as Pauline? And doesn't the Orthodox Church exist to this day, instead of being "overwhelmed by the sudden rise of Islam"?


It appears the Abnerian version bifurcated, one fluke going to Orthodox Christianity, the other fizzling out in Arabia.

#27 Bonita

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 02:52 PM

I already know that. What I am asking, as I've already asked in this thread, is that if these teachings spread throughout Arabia and Mesopotamia, what mentions are there of it in history? There were many sects in the early Jesus movement and we know many of them by name. Should we just take the Urantia Book's word for it, without trying to corroborate it with the historical record? Out of all the first-century sects that we're aware of from the historical record, which one followed the original teachings of the kingdom?


No one knows for sure Howard. There are very few documents from the first century in the deserts of Arabia, which is where Abner's group mostly went. I'm open to the idea that Assyrian Christianity, Coptic Christianity, Nabataean (Petra) Christianity and Nestorian (Syriac) Christianity could be derived from Abner's group in one way or another. But it's purely speculation based mostly upon TUB's statement that Abner's theology was more Babylonian than Hellenistic and that it was absorbed by Islam and all but lost.

#28 Guest_EEB aka AASB-AWSW_*

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 07:26 PM

Revelation 1:11 — King James Version (KJV)
11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

It would appear that “Asia” — Modern Turkey, may be misrepresented as the Far East. Please see an interactive Map of the Area in question:
http://www.about-jes...lation-map.htm

In the following quotes we can see that Abner spent much of his last years in “Philadelphia” and might very well have been considered a leader or founder of the church in Philadelphia.

(1831.6) 166:5.3 The Jews at Jerusalem had always had trouble with the Jews of Philadelphia. And after the death and resurrection of Jesus the Jerusalem church, of which James the Lord’s brother was head, began to have serious difficulties with the Philadelphia congregation of believers. Abner became the head of the Philadelphia church, continuing as such until his death. And this estrangement with Jerusalem explains why nothing is heard of Abner and his work in the Gospel records of the New Testament. This feud between Jerusalem and Philadelphia lasted throughout the lifetimes of James and Abner and continued for some time after the destruction of Jerusalem. Philadelphia was really the headquarters of the early church in the south and east as Antioch was in the north and west.

(1831.7) 166:5.4 It was the apparent misfortune of Abner to be at variance with all of the leaders of the early Christian church. He fell out with Peter and James (Jesus’ brother) over questions of administration and the jurisdiction of the Jerusalem church; he parted company with Paul over differences of philosophy and theology. Abner was more Babylonian than Hellenic in his philosophy, and he stubbornly resisted all attempts of Paul to remake the teachings of Jesus so as to present less that was objectionable, first to the Jews, then to the Greco-Roman believers in the mysteries.

(1832.1) 166:5.5 Thus was Abner compelled to live a life of isolation. He was head of a church which was without standing at Jerusalem. He had dared to defy James the Lord’s brother, who was subsequently supported by Peter. Such conduct effectively separated him from all his former associates. Then he dared to withstand Paul. Although he was wholly sympathetic with Paul in his mission to the gentiles, and though he supported him in his contentions with the church at Jerusalem, he bitterly opposed the version of Jesus’ teachings which Paul elected to preach. In his last years Abner denounced Paul as the “clever corrupter of the life teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of the living God.”

(1832.2) 166:5.6 During the later years of Abner and for some time thereafter, the believers at Philadelphia held more strictly to the religion of Jesus, as he lived and taught, than any other group on earth.


The following was written to the church in Philadelphia as written in Revelation 3.

Revelation 3: 6-12 — King James Version (KJV)


6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.


Abner’s primary doctrine came from John the Baptist, and it would appear that Abner took on John’s attitude to the doctrine of the Kingdom, although influenced by Jesus. The following quotes may show the attitude that Abner had grown to enforce through his teachings in his latter days.

(1491.9) 134:6.15 Cymboyton’s eldest son had appealed to Abner at Philadelphia for help, but Abner’s choice of teachers was most unfortunate in that they turned out to be unyielding and uncompromising. These teachers sought to make their religion dominant over the other beliefs. They never suspected that the oft-referred-to lectures of the caravan conductor had been delivered by Jesus himself.

(1497.6) 135:2.4 As time passed, John returned less often to Hebron, while he made more frequent visits to Engedi. He was so entirely different from the majority of the Nazarites that he found it very difficult fully to fraternize with the brotherhood. But he was very fond of Abner, the acknowledged leader and head of the Engedi colony.

(1605.3) 142:8.1 By the end of April the opposition to Jesus among the Pharisees and Sadducees had become so pronounced that the Master and his apostles decided to leave Jerusalem for a while, going south to work in Bethlehem and Hebron. The entire month of May was spent in doing personal work in these cities and among the people of the surrounding villages. No public preaching was done on this trip, only house-to-house visitation. A part of this time, while the apostles taught the gospel and ministered to the sick, Jesus and Abner spent at Engedi, visiting the Nazarite colony. John the Baptist had gone forth from this place, and Abner had been head of this group. Many of the Nazarite brotherhood became believers in Jesus, but the majority of these ascetic and eccentric men refused to accept him as a teacher sent from heaven because he did not teach fasting and other forms of self-denial.


(1624.13) 144:6.2 By the beginning of the second week of this month, Abner had assembled all of his associates at the Gilboa camp and was prepared to go into council with the apostles of Jesus. For three weeks these twenty-four men were in session three times a day and for six days each week. The first week Jesus mingled with them between their forenoon, afternoon, and evening sessions. They wanted the Master to meet with them and preside over their joint deliberations, but he steadfastly refused to participate in their discussions, though he did consent to speak to them on three occasions. These talks by Jesus to the twenty-four were on sympathy, co-operation, and tolerance.

(1624.14) 144:6.3 Andrew and Abner alternated in presiding over these joint meetings of the two apostolic groups. These men had many difficulties to discuss and numerous problems to solve. Again and again would they take their troubles to Jesus, only to hear him say: “I am concerned only with your personal and purely religious problems. I am the representative of the Father to the individual, not to the group. If you are in personal difficulty in your relations with God, come to me, and I will hear you and counsel you in the solution of your problem. But when you enter upon the co-ordination of divergent human interpretations of religious questions and upon the socialization of religion, you are destined to solve all such problems by your own decisions. Albeit, I am ever sympathetic and always interested, and when you arrive at your conclusions touching these matters of nonspiritual import, provided you are all agreed, then I pledge in advance my full approval and hearty co-operation. And now, in order to leave you unhampered in your deliberations, I am leaving you for two weeks. Be not anxious about me, for I will return to you. I will be about my Father’s business, for we have other realms besides this one.”


(1626.5) 144:7.4 Abner, the chief of John’s apostles, became a devout believer in Jesus and was later on made the head of a group of seventy teachers whom the Master commissioned to preach the gospel.

In the previous quote it states that Abner was made the head of a group of seventy, but it also states that Jesus commissioned the group not specifically Abner, who may have been one on the seventy, but does not imply that Jesus made Abner the head of the group.
In the following quotes Jesus is addressing the John the Baptist’s followers who became associates of Jesus’ group, of which Abner was one, and addressed his concerns.



(1627.4) 144:8.7 On this afternoon Jesus continued to teach, saying: “But to what shall I liken this generation? Many of you will receive neither John’s message nor my teaching. You are like the children playing in the market place who call to their fellows and say: ‘We piped for you and you did not dance; we wailed and you did not mourn.’ And so with some of you. John came neither eating nor drinking, and they said he had a devil. The Son of Man comes eating and drinking, and these same people say: ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!’ Truly, wisdom is justified by her children.

(1627.5) 144:8.8 “It would appear that the Father in heaven has hidden some of these truths from the wise and haughty, while he has revealed them to babes. But the Father does all things well; the Father reveals himself to the universe by the methods of his own choosing. Come, therefore, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and you shall find rest for your souls. Take upon you the divine yoke, and you will experience the peace of God, which passes all understanding.”

It would appear that Abner and his associates where paired with the apostles, in order that the different teaching might be used to temper the attitudes to lessen or blend the character and driving force of their differences.

(1642.5) 146:3.9 The apostles continued to preach and baptize believers, while they kept up the practice of visiting from house to house, comforting the downcast and ministering to the sick and afflicted. The apostolic organization was expanded in that each of Jesus’ apostles now had one of John’s as an associate; Abner was the associate of Andrew; and this plan prevailed until they went down to Jerusalem for the next Passover.

(1642.6) 146:3.10 The special instruction given by Jesus during their stay at Zebulun had chiefly to do with further discussions of the mutual obligations of the kingdom and embraced teaching designed to make clear the differences between personal religious experience and the amities of social religious obligations. This was one of the few times the Master ever discussed the social aspects of religion. Throughout his entire earth life Jesus gave his followers very little instruction regarding the socialization of religion.


? — Maybe Jesus just wanted them all to get along and agree to disagree, on methodology.

#29 Bonita

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:54 AM

The city of Philadelphia mentioned in Revelations is located in Turkey and is currently called Alaşehir.

Abner's Philadelphia is in Jordan and is now called Amman, it's capital.

#30 Guest_EEB aka AASB-AWSW_*

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 12:04 PM

I would then assume that much correction is due in the Historic Biblical records.
Very nice Bonita.
You can submit corrections on the interactive Map previously provided.
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Edited by EEB aka AASB-AWSW, 29 January 2013 - 12:06 PM.


#31 Bonita

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 01:14 PM

The ten cities of the Decapolis are not the same as the seven cities mentioned in Revelations.

Ten Decapolis Cities (all in Syria and Judea)
  • Canatha
  • Capitolias
  • Damascus
  • Gadara
  • Gerasa
  • Hippos
  • Pella
  • Philadelphia
  • Raphana
  • Scythopolis

Seven Revelation Cities (all in Turkey)
  • Ephesus
  • Laodicea
  • Pergamum
  • Philadelphia
  • Sardis
  • Smyrna
The city of Philadelphia mentioned in Revelations suffered a major earthquake in 17 AD. According to the public record, Alaşehir (Philadelphia in Turkey) suffered an earthquake in 17 AD. Ammon (Philadelphia in Jordan) did not have a major earthquake in 17 AD. The first century date for a major earthquake in Jordan is 31 AD.

Decapolis: The Decapolis was a league of free cities characterized by Greek culture. All but one, Scythopolis (Beth Shan), were situated east of the Sea of Galilee and the Jordan River. The league stretched from a point northeast of the Sea of Galilee southward to Philadelphia (modern Amman, Jordan). Archaeological Study Bible, NIV, 2005, pg.1564


Seven Churches of Asia Minor: The seven churches mentioned in Revelation 1-3 were all located within the Roman province of Asia (in western Turkey), opposite the island of Patmos where John received his relation. Although there were almost certainly other churches in the area at this time, it appears that John chose these seven because they formed a natural route for a circuit rider, starting in Ephesus and moving on in a counterclockwise direction through Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatria, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. Archaeological Study Bible, NIV, 2005, pg. 2051



And incidentally, I do not appreciate your unfriendly tone.

#32 Howard509

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 05:01 PM

No one knows for sure Howard. There are very few documents from the first century in the deserts of Arabia, which is where Abner's group mostly went. I'm open to the idea that Assyrian Christianity, Coptic Christianity, Nabataean (Petra) Christianity and Nestorian (Syriac) Christianity could be derived from Abner's group in one way or another. But it's purely speculation based mostly upon TUB's statement that Abner's theology was more Babylonian than Hellenistic and that it was absorbed by Islam and all but lost.


Thank you. That's all I wanted to know. We shouldn't be surprised if there isn't a historical record of the early Abnerian kingdom followers, given the fact that they belonged to an oral culture and that, whatever writings were made, likely would have been destroyed by mainstream Pauline Christianity, just as they did to the writings of Gnostics, Ebionites, etc. It's interesting that Muhammad said that in his time, there were Christians who followed the original teachings of Jesus. Perhaps they were Abnerian.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#33 Guest_EEB aka AASB-AWSW_*

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:01 PM

. . . .
And incidentally, I do not appreciate your unfriendly tone.


I am not sure how you assumed an “unfriendly tone”, oh, yes; you assumed that “you can” was personal instead of using “one can”, sorry, second time I made that mistake.

However, my implication is to the UB’s use of “Philadelphia” and its association with “early Christian church” as the first “Christian church”, being that Jesus did not wish to start a church, more over was He mandated not too, would be enough to make the quote below unrelated to the immediate time frame of Abner’s UB text reference and implies an afterthought, insertion of probable variable to hind-sight. As written, the reader would take on the impression as you posted on your opening post, not that it is wrong, but absolute or finite. In addition this quote separates the groups by using “the Jerusalem brethren” based on “the teachings of Jesus”.

(1430.1) 130:2.3 While the eastern branch of the early Christian church, having its headquarters at Philadelphia, held more faithfully to the teachings of Jesus than did the Jerusalem brethren, it was regrettable that there was no one like Peter to go into China, or like Paul to enter India, where the spiritual soil was then so favorable for planting the seed of the new gospel of the kingdom. These very teachings of Jesus, as they were held by the Philadelphians, would have made just such an immediate and effective appeal to the minds of the spiritually hungry Asiatic peoples as did the preaching of Peter and Paul in the West.

Don’t forget the following UB quote:

(1832.1) 166:5.5 Thus was Abner compelled to live a life of isolation. He was head of a church which was without standing at Jerusalem. He had dared to defy James the Lord’s brother, who was subsequently supported by Peter. Such conduct effectively separated him from all his former associates. Then he dared to withstand Paul. Although he was wholly sympathetic with Paul in his mission to the gentiles, and though he supported him in his contentions with the church at Jerusalem, he bitterly opposed the version of Jesus’ teachings which Paul elected to preach. In his last years Abner denounced Paul as the “clever corrupter of the life teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, the Son of the living God.”

From your opening statement/quote:

Abner, the head of the Eastern Church in Philadelphia, was also the chief of the evangelistic corps of seventy (165:0.1). Present day Philadelphia is Amman, Jordan. One of the oldest, if not the oldest, church known on earth is St. George's in Amman. On the floor of the church is a mosaic inscription stating: "the 70 beloved by God and the divine" believed to be referring to those who founded the worship there. Last year archeologists discovered a cave beneath the church with evidence that it was used by Christians in the 1st Century. There is speculation that this was the place where the original seventy worshipped and possibly lived.

Read the article here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25061134/

I find this so intriguing because Abner's church held most strictly to the original teachings of Jesus until it was absorbed by the Islamic movement. I'm hoping that someday archeologists may find some scrolls from this dig which may give us better insight into the beliefs and controversies between Abner and the Western Church. With further discoveries, perhaps it is possible to get a better glimpse at how they understood the Master's teaching and reveal what portions of it, if any, might still persist in Islam today.
. . . .


I did read your posted link above and did some additional research, that lead me to the following link:
http://en.wikipedia....Jordan_finding
From the original link: http://en.wikipedia....enty_disciples

There seems to be much more speculation regarding this Archeological find, yet to be confirmed.

I’m not sure of your inference to “Abner’s church” being “absorbed by the Islamic movement” since the “Islamic movement” came hundreds of years later?

Redirecting back to the seven churches of Revelation 1:11; the UB has quoted some Revelation text, therefore, one might imply that there is some relevancy to its text, and I can see that the UB might not elaborate on the text, being that it was scribed after the death of Jesus but, it is interesting that these seven churches, all within the same geographic area of Biblical Asia, should have been noted by the Revelation of Jesus. Is there any correlation to them and the practices mentioned by various groups or churches in the UB? At the time of the visions foreseen which makes up the content of the Revelation of Jesus, it could be implied that the seven churches reference might have been for churches destined to have either moved from Jesus’ original stomping grounds, do to hostile attitudes which followed Jesus’ crucifixion? Could there be additional material that it is pointing at which may go beyond the revelation of the UB.

The UB indicates that Jesus learned much from the Old Testament text and prior to it, like Enoch. Using this analogy there is information in the UB, which one can use to continue to expand on Jesus’ teachings of the Kingdom. Therefore, there must also be information, which is relevant to Jesus’ teachings of the Kingdom, which spans outside of or after the publication date of the UB?

Edited by EEB aka AASB-AWSW, 29 January 2013 - 07:06 PM.


#34 Bonita

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Posted 29 January 2013 - 07:38 PM

I’m not sure of your inference to “Abner’s church” being “absorbed by the Islamic movement” since the “Islamic movement” came hundreds of years later?


Not sure where you got the impression that I think Abner had a church. He had a group of 70 disciples. And I did not infer anything about Islam, I stated fact according to TUB which states unequivocally that Abner's Eastern version of Jesus' gospel was lost IN the Islamic movement.

195:1.11 The Eastern version of the message of Jesus, notwithstanding that it remained more true to his teachings, continued to follow the uncompromising attitude of Abner. It never progressed as did the Hellenized version and was eventually lost in the Islamic movement.

#35 Bonita

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 11:57 AM

Thank you. That's all I wanted to know. We shouldn't be surprised if there isn't a historical record of the early Abnerian kingdom followers, given the fact that they belonged to an oral culture and that, whatever writings were made, likely would have been destroyed by mainstream Pauline Christianity, just as they did to the writings of Gnostics, Ebionites, etc. It's interesting that Muhammad said that in his time, there were Christians who followed the original teachings of Jesus. Perhaps they were Abnerian.


There are tons of interesting ideas opened up by learning about the existence of Abner. I have so many questions I would love to ask the TUB authors if I only had the chance. I spent a good year researching Abner and every time I felt that I discovered something it turned out to be a dead end. There simply is nothing in the scholarly works and I'm sure there is much confusion about all of it. What we need is more archeology in the desert areas of the region. Sooner or later, something will pop up that sheds light on this fascinating person and his group of disciples.

One angle I tried to research was the Nazarite connection. Abner was a Nazarite. Engedi was a Nazarite colony. All of the research I found states that Engedi was an Essene colony in the first century, which is incorrect. The Essenes and Nazarites were different. Jesus was called a Nazarene and there is a lot of controversy over what that means. I'm wondering if it has something to do with the Nazarites rather than Nazareth. There is a 4th century Christian sect called the Nazarenes described by Epiphanius. Could they be Abner's followers? I don't know, but it is an intriguing angle.

I also attempted to find the burial place for John the Baptist, also a Nazarite, since TUB tells us that he was buried at Sebaste, the home of Abner. The only Sebaste I've found is in Turkey and I doubt that they would have hauled his headless body that far, but I could be wrong. Sebaste is also the equivalent of the latin, Augusta, but I gave up on that too. Maybe I'll take it up again now that winter keeps me more housebound than usual.

#36 Guest_EEB aka AASB-AWSW_*

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 12:18 PM

. . . .
I also attempted to find the burial place for John the Baptist, also a Nazarite, since TUB tells us that he was buried at Sebaste, the home of Abner. The only Sebaste I've found is in Turkey and I doubt that they would have hauled his headless body that far, but I could be wrong. Sebaste is also the equivalent of the latin, Augusta, but I gave up on that too. Maybe I'll take it up again now that winter keeps me more housebound than usual.


You may wish to start at the following URL http://en.wikipedia....ea_(Holy_Land)

“The Christian Armenians who were deported from Armenia and forcibly settled in the New Julfa/Isfahan region of Iran named a major village Perea in honor of the important significance of Perea,Israel as the resting place of John the Baptist.”

Posted Image

However, there is some contravese regarding the location of John's head?

#37 Bonita

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 02:01 PM

Actually, after writing my last post I decided to stay in today and go back to the research I started a few years ago. With very little effort I discovered where Sebaste is. The internet site that I found didn't exist the last time I searched which is why I should never give up in this new age of technology.

Sebaste is also known as Sebastiya and is located in Samaria. http://www.seethehol....net/sebastiya/

#38 Guest_EEB aka AASB-AWSW_*

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Posted 30 January 2013 - 06:50 PM

I also found the word, Nazarite, interesting and in the Biblical Dictionary definition below, based on the Vow which is taken in becoming a Nazarite, might very well explain Abner’s attitude as depicted in the UB.


http://dictionary.re...src=2894&l=dir

Nazarite — noun

1. (among the ancient Hebrews) a person who had taken certain strict religious vows, usually for a limited period.
2. Rare. a Nazarene.
3. Rare. Christ.
4. Obsolete . a Christian.

Also, Nazirite.

Origin:
1550–60; < Late Latin Nāzar ( aeus ) (< Greek Nāzēraîos, equivalent to nāzēr (< Hebrew nāzīr consecrated person) + -aios suffix) + -ite1

Easton Biblical Dictionary

Nazarite definition


(Heb. form Nazirite), the name of such Israelites as took on them the vow prescribed in Num. 6:2-21. The word denotes generally one who is separated from others and consecrated to God. Although there is no mention of any Nazarite before Samson, yet it is evident that they existed before the time of Moses. The vow of a Nazarite involved these three things, (1) abstinence from wine and strong drink, (2) refraining from cutting the hair off the head during the whole period of the continuance of the vow, and (3) the avoidance of contact with the dead. When the period of the continuance of the vow came to an end, the Nazarite had to present himself at the door of the sanctuary with (1) a he lamb of the first year for a burnt-offering, (2) a ewe lamb of the first year for a sin-offering, and (3) a ram for a peace-offering. After these sacrifices were offered by the priest, the Nazarite cut off his hair at the door and threw it into the fire under the peace-offering. For some reason, probably in the midst of his work at Corinth, Paul took on himself the Nazarite vow. This could only be terminated by his going up to Jerusalem to offer up the hair which till then was to be left uncut. But it seems to have been allowable for persons at a distance to cut the hair, which was to be brought up to Jerusalem, where the ceremony was completed. This Paul did at Cenchrea just before setting out on his voyage into Syria (Acts 18:18). On another occasion (Acts 21:23-26), at the feast of Pentecost, Paul took on himself again the Nazarite vow. "The ceremonies involved took a longer time than Paul had at his disposal, but the law permitted a man to share the vow if he could find companions who had gone through the prescribed ceremonies, and who permitted him to join their company. This permission was commonly granted if the new comer paid all the fees required from the whole company (fee to the Levite for cutting the hair and fees for sacrifices), and finished the vow along with the others. Four Jewish Christians were performing the vow, and would admit Paul to their company, provided he paid their expenses. Paul consented, paid the charges, and when the last seven days of the vow began he went with them to live in the temple, giving the usual notice to the priests that he had joined in regular fashion, was a sharer with the four men, and that his vow would end with theirs. Nazarites retired to the temple during the last period of seven days, because they could be secure there against any accidental defilement" (Lindsay's Acts). As to the duration of a Nazarite's vow, every one was left at liberty to fix his own time. There is mention made in Scripture of only three who were Nazarites for life, Samson, Samuel, and John the Baptist (Judg. 13:4, 5; 1 Sam. 1:11; Luke 1:15). In its ordinary form, however, the Nazarite's vow lasted only thirty, and at most one hundred, days. (See RECHABITES.) This institution was a symbol of a life devoted to God and separated from all sin, a holy life.

RECHABITES
http://dictionary.re...wse/RECHABITES

Bible Dictionary — Rechabites definition

the descendants of Rechab through Jonadab or Jehonadab. They belonged to the Kenites, who accompanied the children of Israel into Palestine, and dwelt among them. Moses married a Kenite wife (Judg. 1:16), and Jael was the wife of "Heber the Kenite" (4:17). Saul also showed kindness to the Kenites (1 Sam. 15:6). The main body of the Kenites dwelt in cities, and adopted settled habits of life (30:29); but Jehonadab forbade his descendants to drink wine or to live in cities. They were commanded to lead always a nomad life. They adhered to the law laid down by Jonadab, and were noted for their fidelity to the old-established custom of their family in the days of Jeremiah (35); and this feature of their character is referred to by the prophet for the purpose of giving point to his own exhortation. They are referred to in Neh. 3:14 and 1 Chr. 2:55. Dr. Wolff (1839) found in Arabia, near Mecca, a tribe claiming to be descendants of Jehonadab; and recently a Bedouin tribe has been found near the Dead Sea who also profess to be descendants of the same Kenite chief.

#39 Howard509

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 01:23 AM

If you would like information on the historical Jesus that is very consistent with the Urantia Book, I recommend Meeting Jesus Again for the First Time by Marcus Borg.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#40 Bonita

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 01:39 PM

I do find it very interesting that Paul, a man who riled against long hair for men (1 Cor 11:14), would grow his hair for the Nazarite vow. In Galatians 1:15, Paul admits that he was a Nazarite, (set apart from birth), and that he went to Arabia, which could have been the Nazarite colony in Engedi . . . not sure. After which, he went to Jerusalem to meet with James and Peter and stayed 15 days before leaving for Antioch, Syria. In Acts 24:5 Paul is called the ringleader of the Nazarene sect. At the time there were political activists who were both Nazarites and Essenes (sicarii). One has to wonder if Nazarite and Nazarene did get confused in translation.




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