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A Look Into Other Religious Material


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#21 Bill Martin

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 12:44 AM

I need to do more of that "superthinking" we (you) were talking about-effortless attention. Sometimes such as now, when I am at this keyboard I feel this comforting love just like He has His arms around me, and i am certain, no matter what, no real harm can come to me. The asteroid may hit, the boat might founder and slip beneath the waves, my time here may come to an end. But I will pick up "up there" right where i left off down here- in the loving service of my fellows under the divine watchcare of Jesus.

Thanks for the quotes Bonita. Thanks for everything you do.
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#22 joer

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Posted 23 May 2009 - 03:05 AM

Hey Tim, I like your post. ;)

I find the indigenous people of Mexico, Central America, and in the mountains of South America, quite interesting. I just finished a native American arts and culture class yesterday that dealt with all those cultures.

I believe TUB says a little over 7000 of the red race cross over the Bering Strait land bridge about 80,000 years ago. The purer race settled in North America. The mixed races with them went South to Mexico Central America and Brazil and eastern South America I believe. And about 170 reached the area by Peru across the South Pacific, Island hoping in which there were many more islands at that time., perhaps 40,000 years ago. I donít remember exactly. Todayís science has proof of up to about 14,000 years ago. And speculate an arrival about 25,000 years ago.

The Inca in Peru and the Chavin, Nazca, and Meche cultures that predate the Inca had a lot of yellow influence in my estimation. The terraced farming in the hills reminded me of Asian terraced farming. They worked with Gold as metallurgists., The other Native Americans worked more with stone. There polymorphic figures and some of the Kings names as their culture diffused north to central America and the Maya with names like18 Rabbit. Reminded me of Asian Culture like Chinese new Year, the year of the rabbit or the Rat or dragon etc.

I have no problem with the Mormon religion. Their recognition of God the Mother along with the Methodists recently, correspond with TUBís revelation of the feminine aspects and expressions of God. And Jesus told us to respect the truths in all religion and progress forward from there rather them condemning that which we judge as wrong. I think that is a good idea.

Iíve shared with young Mormanís on their missions as they came to share spirituality with me. Iíve shared it with Jehovahís Witnesses. Last weekend I blew a couple of JWís away by embracing the truths they were sharing and expounding on them a little more. Weíre told to speak to the Spiritís of others. We did and it was very cool. Even the 3 left in the car were uplifted and praising God as our words entered into their hearts. No mention of TUB that time just sharing of itís truths as they live in me. It was sweet brother. It was sweet. ;)

Godís Peace be with you, Tim!
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will.

#23 Guest_U-rantian_*

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Posted 25 May 2009 - 03:16 PM

Hi there.

On page 885 of the Urantia book, it states:

"In Mexico, Central America, and in the mountains of South America the later and more enduring civilizations were founded by a race predominantly red but containing a considerable admixture of the yellow, orange, and blue."

In my opinion, this would lend credence to the LDS (Mormon) faith's belief in the Book of Mormon. Both the Jaredites, as mentioned in the Book of Ether, came from the old world during the time of the "great tower" (Ether 1:33). Also, the Nephites, who came to the Americas around 600 BC, about when the nation of Israel were taken captive by Babylon. Also, the Mulekites, who were members of the royal house of Israel, also came to the Americas about 600 BC. These people founded great civilizations according to the Book of Mormon, and if in fact the books is accurate, would serve to detail the brief mention made these "enduring civilizations" which were made up of a "considerable admixture of the yellow, orange, and blue" races.

Also, on the same page the Urantia book suggests the American Indians (Red Men) never came into contact with the Andite offspring of Adam and Eve, since they were isolated in North/South America long before Adam and Eve. Then it states that some "...traces of Andite blood reached Peru." Another example lending proof to the Book of Mormon.


This is very absurd in my personal opinion.

U-rantian

I agree, U-rantian. Pure drivel.

Bill Martin


#24 Meredith Van Woert

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 03:31 PM

There has to be "something" that attracts a person to one religion or another, that attracts a person to be drawn to various religious materials. Jesus discoursed on True Religion (p. 1728) and he starts out with this:

"While the religions of the world have a double origin--natural and revelatory--at any one time and among any one people there are to be found three distinct forms of religious devotion. And these three manifestations of the religious urge are:

"1. Primitive religion. The seminatural and instinctive urge to fear mysterious energies and worship superior forces, chiefly a religion of the physical nature, the religion of fear.

"2. The religion of civilization. The advancing religious concepts and practices of the civilizing races--the religion of the mind--the intellectual theology of the authority of established religious tradition.

"3. True religion--the religion of revelation. The revelation of supernatural values, a partial insight into eternal realities, a glimpse of the goodness and beauty of the infinite character of the Father in heaven--the religion of the spirit as demonstrated in human experience."


Jesus continues his teaching to the apostles for several pages beyond this beginning, and in part he concludes:

"Now, mistake not, my Father will ever respond to the faintest flicker of faith. He takes note of the physical and superstitious emotions of the primitive man. And with those honest but fearful souls whose faith is so weak that it amounts to little more than an intellectual conformity to a passive attitude of assent to religions of authority, the Father is ever alert to honor and foster even all such feeble attempts to reach out for him. But you who have been called out of darkness into the light are expected to believe with a whole heart; your faith shall dominate the combined attitudes of body, mind, and spirit." (1733)


Was not Jesus perturbed at the religious leaders who knew the truth, but withheld it from the people, enslaving the people to the traditions of old? I'll try to look this up.

Meredith

#25 Meredith Van Woert

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Posted 28 May 2009 - 11:00 PM

Was not Jesus perturbed at the religious leaders who knew the truth, but withheld it from the people, enslaving the people to the traditions of old? I'll try to look this up.

Meredith


I did find this, regarding an answer Jesus gave Nathaniel when Nathaniel asked him about the Scriptures, p. 1768 - 69:

"'Mark you well my words, Nathaniel, nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible. Through the mind of man divine truth may indeed shine forth, but always of relative purity and partial divinity. The creature may crave infallibility, but only the Creators possess it.

"'But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scriptures is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret. The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.

"'But the saddest feature of all is the fact that some of the teachers of the sanctity of this traditionalism know this very truth. They more or less fully understand these limitations of Scripture, but they are moral cowards, intellectually dishonest. They know the truth regarding the sacred writings, but they prefer to withhold such disturbing facts from the people. And thus do they pervert and distort the Scriptures, making them the guide to slavish details of the daily life and an authority in things nonspiritual instead of appealing to the sacred writings as the repository of the moral wisdom, religious inspiration, and the spiritual teaching of the God-knowing men of other generations.'"


The Scriptures to which Jesus was referring were the scrolls of the texts of the Hebrew religion. To date that was the best they had.

Meredith

#26 joer

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 03:08 AM

Hi there.


This is very absurd in my personal opinion.

U-rantian

I agree, U-rantian. Pure drivel.

Bill Martin

The Stuff I like about it Tim, is the fact of the spiritual excitement, moral living, direction and spiritual attitude to God that the Mormon religion offers it's 52 million adherents. I thank God for the Blessing of Joseph Smith of bringing those 52 million people to God. I only wish I could do 1 millionth of the job that Joseph Smith did. And just as many may find the idea of Mideastern peoples migrating to the Americas 6000 years ago or so, absurd. Even more find the claims of The Urantia Book of migration of 7000+ people from Asia 80,000 years ago absurd. And the arrival of 172 people via the South Pacific Islands just as absurd.

But weather people find those ideas absurd or not. The groups of believers who maintain those beliefs are ALL tied spiritually together by their belief in God. And what could be more important than that. I couldn't find that part in TUB that says it would be good for us ALL to recognize the truth in ALL religions. But TUB is clear about embracing the faith of our brethren where they are at and spiritually encouraging their advancement from there.

P.1127 - ß5 The highest evidence of the reality and efficacy of religion consists in the fact of human experience; namely, that man, naturally fearful and suspicious, innately endowed with a strong instinct of self-preservation and craving survival after death, is willing fully to trust the deepest interests of his present and future to the keeping and direction of that power and person designated by his faith as God. That is the one central truth of all religion. As to what that power or person requires of man in return for this watchcare and final salvation, no two religions agree; in fact, they all more or less disagree.

P.1539 - ß4 This first missionary tour of the six was eminently successful. They all discovered the great value of direct and personal contact with men. They returned to Jesus more fully realizing that, after all, religion is purely and wholly a matter of personal experience.

P.1100 - ß3 Evolutionary religions and revelatory religions may differ markedly in method, but in motive there is great similarity. Religion is not a specific function of life; rather is it a mode of living. True religion is a wholehearted devotion to some reality which the religionist deems to be of supreme value to himself and for all mankind. And the outstanding characteristics of all religions are: unquestioning loyalty and wholehearted devotion to supreme values. This religious devotion to supreme values is shown in the relation of the supposedly irreligious mother to her child and in the fervent loyalty of nonreligionists to an espoused cause.

P.67 - ß5 The Zoroastrians had a religion of morals; the Hindus a religion of metaphysics; the Confucianists a religion of ethics. Jesus lived a religion of service. All these religions are of value in that they are valid approaches to the religion of Jesus. Religion is destined to become the reality of the spiritual unification of all that is good, beautiful, and true in human experience.

This goes for the Mormon Religion as much as any other.


P.1115 - ß3 Ö. Do not make the mistake of judging another's religion by your own standards of knowledge and truth.

P.1092 - ß2 There is a real purpose in the socialization of religion. It is the purpose of group religious activities to dramatize the loyalties of religion; to magnify the lures of truth, beauty, and goodness; to foster the attractions of supreme values; to enhance the service of unselfish fellowship; to glorify the potentials of family life; to promote religious education; to provide wise counsel and spiritual guidance; and to encourage group worship. And all live religions encourage human friendship, conserve morality, promote neighborhood welfare, and facilitate the spread of the essential gospel of their respective messages of eternal salvation.

The Mormon Religion does that as well as any other. If not better than most. IMHO.

So I thank you again Tim for your great post. :-) God Bless You Tim and ALL my brothers and sisters on this site.

Edited by joer, 29 May 2009 - 03:09 AM.

The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will.

#27 Bill Martin

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Posted 29 May 2009 - 11:28 PM

Dear Joer,

I was just at the Mormon Temple a few months ago. Mormons undoubtedly produce fine upstanding young men and women and some intolerable bigots as do all evolutionary religions. My exception to your praise for the dogma of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and their version of Western Hemisphere racial evolution and prehistoric migrations is that it was created "from whole cloth." There isn't one scintilla of archeological substantiation to back up the pronouncements you have made (on faith alone.)

It is very telling that the Fifth Epochal Revelation says very little about Mohameddism, and even less about Mormonism-zero.

You obfuscate my disbelief of L.D.S. dogma by implying I am denouncing the sincere religionists of the Church of Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ, which I did not and will not. They are children of God as are we and deserve all the benefits of this revelation to leaven and uplift their church's message with the gospel of Jesus.

And besides, and more importantly, this is a forum for the study of the Urantia Book and will not become your soapbox to the world to promote L.D.S. It is entirely reasonable if you are able to illustrate concepts and beliefs from the Book of Mormon by referencing them with salient selections from the Urantia Book. If not Urantia Book related,another venue would be more appropriate.

Respectfully,


Bill Martin
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#28 joer

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 12:52 AM

HI Bill, Thanks for the response. It really doesnít seem to me that I obfuscated one iota of your disbelief of L.D.S. dogma. Nor would I try. My effort and intent is simple. There is a concept that the Urantia Book is a Spiritual revelation for ALL Religions and religionists. If thatís true and as Iíve learned from TUB, the object of the revelation isnít to destroy or put down any religion BUT to uplift all religionists. I hardly see that putting that TUB concept into practice on this forum by embracing my Mormon brothers and sisters is violating anything related to TUB.

I donít know Mormonism enough to proselytize it. But I know TUB enough to know when it is right and just to embrace my Mormon brothers and sisters in the name of My Father and my brother Jesus. Respecting anotherís religious beliefs even If they differ from mine is not praise of their dogma. It is respecting the fact they are my brothers and sisters in God.

You say, ďThere isn't one scintilla of archeological substantiation to back up the pronouncements you have made (on faith alone.)Ē Youíre exactly right Bill. TUB is not an article of "archeological substantiation". Itís a source of Truth and Spirituality. And any alleged pronouncements I may have made, are made in accordance to the guidance I have garnered from that wonderful revelation to our lives, and the ďbeingsĒ of our God given personalities.

And since when has living what the Book has taught been a violation of any Urantia Study Group or forum?

May I suggest Bill that perhaps your disbelief of L.D.S. dogma has colored your perception of my actions to see them as something they are not. I didnít praise Brigham Young or his dogma as you state I did. That statement is False. You exposed and shared more of the Mormon religion in your effort to disparage it than I did in my effort to embrace itís believers as my brothers and sisters. If this is a forum to discuss TUB why arenít you doing that? It appears you are expending more energy to put down Mormonism than to embrace and share the truths of TUB

I have an idea! :smile: let's work on ourselves trying to be more tolerant. slow to anger, quick to forgive, that kind of stuff.

Heck we have one of the Best teachers around in TUB. We just have to try to walk the walk as we talk the talk. Let's be the example we want our kids to follow. Or be the LOVE we want to show and share with our brothers and sisters on the WEB peeking in.

Seems like that might work better because it will be a more real representation of what we are learning and how we are developing Spiritually.

By their fruits they will be known. :smile:

Anyway just a suggestion. We can try to be more tolerant of each other. Maybe we can practice doing this:

P.1765 - ß4 Always respect the personality of man. Never should a righteous cause be promoted by force; spiritual victories can be won only by spiritual power. This injunction against the employment of material influences refers to psychic force as well as to physical force. Overpowering arguments and mental superiority are not to be employed to coerce men and women into the kingdom. Man's mind is not to be crushed by the mere weight of logic or overawed by shrewd eloquence. While emotion as a factor in human decisions cannot be wholly eliminated, it should not be directly appealed to in the teachings of those who would advance the cause of the kingdom. Make your appeals directly to the divine spirit that dwells within the minds of men.[and women] Do not appeal to fear, pity, or mere sentiment. In appealing to men, be fair; exercise self-control and exhibit due restraint; show proper respect for the personalities of your pupils. Remember that I have said: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock, and if any man will open, I will come in."

P.1765 - ß5 In bringing men into the kingdom, do not lessen or destroy their self-respect. While overmuch self-respect may destroy proper humility and end in pride, conceit, and arrogance, the loss of self-respect often ends in paralysis of the will. It is the purpose of this gospel to restore self-respect to those who have lost it and to restrain it in those who have it. Make not the mistake of only condemning the wrongs in the lives of your pupils; remember also to accord generous recognition for the most praiseworthy things in their lives. Forget not that I will stop at nothing to restore self-respect to those who have lost it, and who really desire to regain it.

P.1765 - ß6 Take care that you do not wound the self-respect of timid and fearful souls. Do not indulge in sarcasm at the expense of my simple-minded brethren. Be not cynical with my fear-ridden children. Idleness is destructive of self-respect; therefore, admonish your brethren ever to keep busy at their chosen tasks, and put forth every effort to secure work for those who find themselves without employment....

P.1766 - ß3 Forewarn all believers regarding the fringe of conflict which must be traversed by all who pass from the life as it is lived in the flesh to the higher life as it is lived in the spirit. To those who live quite wholly within either realm, there is little conflict or confusion, but all are doomed to experience more or less uncertainty during the times of transition between the two levels of living. In entering the kingdom, you cannot escape its responsibilities or avoid its obligations, but remember: The gospel yoke is easy and the burden of truth is light.

P.1766 - ß4 The world is filled with hungry souls who famish in the very presence of the bread of life; men [and women] die searching for the very God who lives within them.

May God's peace and Love guide us all to be better and better people as we go through " the fringe of conflict which must be traversed by all who pass from the life as it is lived in the flesh to the higher life as it is lived in the spirit.":smile: God Bless us ALL.

Anyway Bill thatís the way I see it. But Iím just the new guy. Iím sure I can benefit from the wisdom of many here. And Iím open to that. God's Love be with you Bill and all here.
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#29 Meredith Van Woert

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 09:49 AM

While Bill and joer are conversing (and I just read joer's response to Bill), I thought of another angle - an angle which might also be seen as a viewpoint - on the topic of looking at other religious material.

Isn't it awesome and amazing and utterly mysterious how much Jesus moves in the world today in the hearts and minds of religionists of every stripe? And religionists of no stripe? He moves. He lives. And ever has and will continue to live, since Pentacost and the bestowal of the Spirit of Truth. Think of it! In spite of the distortions, confusions, additions, subtractions and interpretations over the centuries, and inspite of other religious material and so-called prophets and their writings and their adherents, he lives and moves in the very atmosphere we breathe.

There is life in my neighborhood mosque and synagogue and the multiplicity of churches bearing the word Christ, the anointed one. Think of how far we have come over the centuries with him. In spite of the horrors of the past. Jesus is no respector of persons. Or do you think he is picks the church, synagogue or mosque he favors and forgets the rest? No one of us has an edge on the Jesus market.

Jesus is in every market and neighborhood. Where two or three are gathered together. I am amazed at what and Who we we have to help us. And because of this inspiration, Jesus, it is not surprising to me that people want to write their own stories or inspirational versions of their visions.

What a world!

Meredith

#30 Bonita

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 10:20 AM

Bill,

I have to agree with Joer here. TUB teaches us that there is something to be learned from all religions. I don't think it matters a hoot if the particular religion is mentioned in TUB or not. Although I understand the need to be vigilant against proselytizers, there must be a way to discuss other religions without making the hair on everyone's back stand up in fear and defiance. How about a World Religions sub-forum? There has to be a calm way to discuss these things or there is no hope in the future of one world religion, or the brotherhood of man, or any other idealistic goal moving us further along toward light and life.

In the Mormon Articles of Faith we can find several truths supported in TUB:

Article 1: We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
Article 9: We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
Article 11: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
Article 12: We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
Article 13: We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul--We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

What is there in the above to argue over or be fearful of? Just because some members of this religion are evangelists and proselytizers bent on converting the world, should we throw out the entire religion? Can't we say the same of Islam and Christianity? In fact, aren't there TUB'ists out there today evangelizing, proselytizing and trying to convert people, seeding the planet, banging on doors and planting books everywhere? Please!

Just because Joseph Smith claimed to have a supernatural conversation with a Spirit do we throw out the entire religion? Isn't TUB from a supernatural source? Isn't Christianity from a supernatural source? Isn't Buddhism the result of one man's supernatural experience? How about Islam and one man's supernatural conversation with Deity? Judaism is based on Abraham's relationship with the supernatural Melchizedek and Moses' supernatural experiences. What's the difference? Everything we know of Deity and of religion has gone through a human filter in touch with some element of the supernatural, supermaterial or superhuman. Even our own Creator Son, Michael, became human and today his Spirit of Truth puts us in touch with the supernatural every moment, if we choose.

Jesus said: "My Father disdains pride, loathes hypocrisy, and abhors iniquity." 149:6.11

You know, the early Christian Church had this same problem. There were those who insisted that new converts must obey all Jewish laws. They wanted everyone to be Jewish. It's the same with every religion. If you're "outside" the group, then your "not inside" the group. It's black or white. Jesus transcended all that, so should we. Or, are we afraid of being diluted by allowing the gates of truth to remain open? Let me tell you a secret: the truth grows; it is alive; the more you add to it, the stronger it gets. Water your soul, keep the flood gates open, and "look for the living Spirit of Truth in every wise saying".

I realize this post may anger some people and cause some kind of uproar among the moderators. If you choose to delete it, I will understand. But I feel the need to speak. Thanks

Edited by Bonita, 30 May 2009 - 11:15 AM.


#31 Bill Martin

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 12:44 PM

Dear Everybody,

I don't care to be the one who is correct or "right." If I mis-stepped or made a mistake, please forgive me. A close reading of my post will reveal what I said, and any attempt to put a different spin on what I said is someone else's responsibility. One of my responsibilities is to improve this Forum by making sure the rules are applied evenly and fairly.

To me it seems a waste of this forum to review, restate and publicize the tenets of Mormonism without relating those observation and declarations to the Urantia Book and/or what the Urantia Book says. There are many so-called "Urantia Book" forums out there, you know them Bonita, that let anything go, and don't maintain a focus on the teachings, and the result (bedlam) ends up having little to do with Michael's gift to this sorry and wayward planet.

Joer, you and Tim have your "work cut out for you" uplifting the millions of Mormons who know not the revelatory reality of the Gospel of Jesus. Why would Tim want to relate all the Mormon mythologies here to persons who are here to find out more about the Fifth Epochal Revelation? Why would you agree so enthusiastically? with a post with such an obvious purpose? That is why I used the word obfuscation. Let's bring what we are all belaboring over back to the stated purpose of this forum (as is stated in "FORUM RULES" on the first line at the top of this page)
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"The Urantia Book Forum was created for study, discussion and dissemination of the teachings of The Urantia Book"- further-

DISALLOWED MATERIAL:

5. Material not in The Urantia Book. Material not found in The Urantia Book, but relevant to the topic under consideration, may be quoted. Human authorship is assumed and referencing should include the published source where the quote may be found in context.

Posting of any content which implies direct or explicit communication with celestials or former mortals; or, which presumes to contain exact knowledge about the survival potential or the post-mortal status of specific individuals; or, which presents specific factual information concerning extra-terrestrial or spiritual realms which cannot be referenced in The Urantia Book, is not allowed.

Presenting examples of such activities and materials is permitted exclusively for the purposes of example pursuant to discussion of the effect that such materials, expressions and/or associated individuals, groups and organizations may have on matters related to the Fifth Epochal Revelation.
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Bonita, nobody is infallible and It is unfortunate that some may percieve my response in the wrong way. Just as we will keep material that promotes of Teaching Mission where it belongs, somewhere else,so should the proselytization of L.D.S. material be prohibited here.

U-rantian and my response to Tim Williams post preaching L.D.S. Mythologies was rather restrained in light of what was being said. My comments on Joer's support of Tim's post is what I am addressing here/now. This is all I will have to say on this matter. All that needs to be said is this Forum is for the Urantia Book, only the Urantia Book and all related material. Keep your focus on the Revelation please.

Here is the objectionable material and U-rantian and my comment.
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QUOTE (Tim Williams @ May 14 2009, 02:37 PM)
On page 885 of the Urantia book, it states:

"In Mexico, Central America, and in the mountains of South America the later and more enduring civilizations were founded by a race predominantly red but containing a considerable admixture of the yellow, orange, and blue."

In my opinion, this would lend credence to the LDS (Mormon) faith's belief in the Book of Mormon. Both the Jaredites, as mentioned in the Book of Ether, came from the old world during the time of the "great tower" (Ether 1:33). Also, the Nephites, who came to the Americas around 600 BC, about when the nation of Israel were taken captive by Babylon. Also, the Mulekites, who were members of the royal house of Israel, also came to the Americas about 600 BC. These people founded great civilizations according to the Book of Mormon, and if in fact the books is accurate, would serve to detail the brief mention made these "enduring civilizations" which were made up of a "considerable admixture of the yellow, orange, and blue" races.

Also, on the same page the Urantia book suggests the American Indians (Red Men) never came into contact with the Andite offspring of Adam and Eve, since they were isolated in North/South America long before Adam and Eve. Then it states that some "...traces of Andite blood reached Peru." Another example lending proof to the Book of Mormon.


Tim Williams
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This is very absurd in my personal opinion.

U-rantian


I agree, U-rantian. Pure drivel.

Bill Martin


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joer Posted May 23 2009, 03:05 AM
Hey Tim, I like your post.

I find the indigenous people of Mexico, Central America, and in the mountains of South America, quite interesting. I just finished a native American arts and culture class yesterday that dealt with all those cultures.

I believe TUB says a little over 7000 of the red race cross over the Bering Strait land bridge about 80,000 years ago. The purer race settled in North America. The mixed races with them went South to Mexico Central America and Brazil and eastern South America I believe. And about 170 reached the area by Peru across the South Pacific, Island hoping in which there were many more islands at that time., perhaps 40,000 years ago. I donít remember exactly. Todayís science has proof of up to about 14,000 years ago. And speculate an arrival about 25,000 years ago.

The Inca in Peru and the Chavin, Nazca, and Meche cultures that predate the Inca had a lot of yellow influence in my estimation. The terraced farming in the hills reminded me of Asian terraced farming. They worked with Gold as metallurgists., The other Native Americans worked more with stone. There polymorphic figures and some of the Kings names as their culture diffused north to central America and the Maya with names like18 Rabbit. Reminded me of Asian Culture like Chinese new Year, the year of the rabbit or the Rat or dragon etc.

I have no problem with the Mormon religion. Their recognition of God the Mother along with the Methodists recently, correspond with TUBís revelation of the feminine aspects and expressions of God. And Jesus told us to respect the truths in all religion and progress forward from there rather them condemning that which we judge as wrong. I think that is a good idea.

Iíve shared with young Mormanís on their missions as they came to share spirituality with me. Iíve shared it with Jehovahís Witnesses. Last weekend I blew a couple of JWís away by embracing the truths they were sharing and expounding on them a little more. Weíre told to speak to the Spiritís of others. We did and it was very cool. Even the 3 left in the car were uplifted and praising God as our words entered into their hearts. No mention of TUB that time just sharing of itís truths as they live in me. It was sweet brother. It was sweet.

Godís Peace be with you, Tim!
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#32 Rick Warren

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 12:45 PM

It's a good discussion Ladies and Gents,

But I can feel a little heat. If we could chill a bit with this one, and try again:

...you are skillfully to put the leaven of new truth in the midst of the old beliefs. Let the Spirit of Truth do his own work....

Isn't it awesome and amazing and utterly mysterious how much Jesus moves in the world today in the hearts and minds of religionists of every stripe? And religionists of no stripe?


Thanks Meredith

#33 Bonita

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 03:28 PM

Bill and all,

From what I can see, the offending sentence from Tim was: " Another example lending proof to the Book of Mormon."

Personally, I am taking this statement in a different way. It tells me that Tim puts TUB above the Book of Mormon since he is looking to it as a means of validation. I don't see anything wrong with that. If instead, he were trying to say that The Book of Mormon is validating TUB, then I could understand the uproar. To look for similarities between various scripture writings and TUB does not trespass the rules of this forum, in my opinion.
If we go through the entire Book of Mormon comparing it to TUB just as Duane Faw did with the Bible in his Paramony, would that be acceptable on this forum? I can't really see a significant difference.

I'm just wondering how many non-Mormons on this forum have read any of the Book of Mormon. There's a lot of folks who condemn TUB without ever having read it too. We pray for them, right? It kinda reminds me of my ex-husband who told me he hated cottage cheese. When I asked him if he ever tasted it, he said no.

I just think that some comments made were short on tact and long on knee-jerk protectionism and a little embarrassing. But I'll shut up now and let this topic move on to perhaps a look into other religious material, maybe something that is not Mormon. But lest you so soon forget the outrage from the heresy police on the topic comparing Eastern Orthodox religion to TUB, perhaps all conversation about religions other than TUBism should be banned while we pat ourselves on the back for our Jesusonian tolerance, meekness and temperance.

And Rick says, let the Spirit of Truth do his own work . . . how do we know if the Spirit of Truth did not motivate Tim to post this topic in the first place . . . how do we know if the Spirit of Truth is not actively seeking open hearts and minds. . . how do we know if the Spirit of Truth is not this moment knocking at the doors to unity of spirit attempting to break down the barriers of prejudice and preconceived opinions which so greatly retard his ministry? We may never know.

I apologize if by speaking my peace I have offended anyone or have broken the rules of the forum. I do think that there is a huge opportunity with this topic for growth, but perhaps this is not the time or the place.

#34 Meredith Van Woert

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Posted 30 May 2009 - 03:28 PM

Back to the Urantia Book for study.

On the Decapolis tour Jesus admonishes John on the subject of the strange preacher:

Jesus went over to Gamala to visit John and those who worked with him at that place. That evening, after the session of questions and answers, John said to Jesus: "Master, yesterday I went over to Ashtaroth to see a man who was teaching in your name and even claiming to be able to cast out devils. Now this fellow had never been with us, neither does he follow after us; therefore I forbade him to do such things." Then said Jesus: "Forbid him not. Do you not perceive that this gospel of the kingdom shall presently be proclaimed in all the world? How can you expect that all who will believe the gospel shall be subject to your direction? Rejoice that already our teaching has begun to manifest itself beyond the bounds of our personal influence. Do you not see, John, that those who profess to do great works in my name must eventually support our cause? They certainly will not be quick to speak evil of me. My son, in matters of this sort it would be better for you to reckon that he who is not against us is for us. In the generations to come many who are not wholly worthy will do many strange things in my name, but I will not forbid them. I tell you that, even when a cup of cold water is given to a thirsty soul, the Father's messengers shall ever make record of such a service of love.

This instruction greatly perplexed John. Had he not heard the Master say, "He who is not with me is against me"? And he did not perceive that in this case Jesus was referring to man's personal relation to the spiritual teachings of the kingdom, while in the other case reference was made to the outward and far-flung social relations of believers regarding the questions of administrative control and the jurisdiction of one group of believers over the work of other groups which would eventually compose the forthcoming world-wide brotherhood.
(1765)



There is a distinction between an individual's relation to the spiritual teachings of the kingdom and "the outward and far-flung social relations of believers regarding the questions of administrative control and the jurisdiction of one group of believers over the work of other groups which would eventually compose the forthcoming world-wide brotherhood."

We are part of the far-flung social group of believers in the spiritual teachings of the kingdom, as derived from the UB. And there is plenty to talk about. One thing we do not talk about is work of the various groups of believers who have organized under the articles of their particular administrative precepts, resolutions, mandates and so on. Naturally, the UAI forum in a certain sense favors UAI. After all, UAI made this website possible. And the focus here IS on the UB, and not other religious material.

In my opinion the study of other religious material is a personal pursuit, not one for the forum, except as it pertains to a topic under discussion on the forum.

Meredith

Edited by Meredith Van Woert, 30 May 2009 - 09:33 PM.


#35 joer

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 12:17 AM

While Bill and joer are conversing (and I just read joer's response to Bill), I thought of another angle - an angle which might also be seen as a viewpoint - on the topic of looking at other religious material.

Isn't it awesome and amazing and utterly mysterious how much Jesus moves in the world today in the hearts and minds of religionists of every stripe? And religionists of no stripe? He moves. He lives. And ever has and will continue to live, since Pentacost and the bestowal of the Spirit of Truth. Think of it! In spite of the distortions, confusions, additions, subtractions and interpretations over the centuries, and inspite of other religious material and so-called prophets and their writings and their adherents, he lives and moves in the very atmosphere we breathe.

There is life in my neighborhood mosque and synagogue and the multiplicity of churches bearing the word Christ, the anointed one. Think of how far we have come over the centuries with him. In spite of the horrors of the past. Jesus is no respector of persons. Or do you think he is picks the church, synagogue or mosque he favors and forgets the rest? No one of us has an edge on the Jesus market.

Jesus is in every market and neighborhood. Where two or three are gathered together. I am amazed at what and Who we we have to help us. And because of this inspiration, Jesus, it is not surprising to me that people want to write their own stories or inspirational versions of their visions.

What a world!

Meredith


I like your perspective Meredith. It seems to be full of the Love and intention that Jesus had and brought for ALL. For those who recognize Him as well as those who don't. God's love moves us all. ;)

Thank you and all here for your insight. ;)
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will.

#36 joer

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 01:34 AM

Dear Everybody,

I don't care to be the one who is correct or "right." If I mis-stepped or made a mistake, please forgive me. A close reading of my post will reveal what I said, and any attempt to put a different spin on what I said is someone else's responsibility. One of my responsibilities is to improve this Forum by making sure the rules are applied evenly and fairly.

To me it seems a waste of this forum to review, restate and publicize the tenets of Mormonism without relating those observation and declarations to the Urantia Book and/or what the Urantia Book says. There are many so-called "Urantia Book" forums out there, you know them Bonita, that let anything go, and don't maintain a focus on the teachings, and the result (bedlam) ends up having little to do with Michael's gift to this sorry and wayward planet.

Joer, you and Tim have your "work cut out for you" uplifting the millions of Mormons who know not the revelatory reality of the Gospel of Jesus. Why would Tim want to relate all the Mormon mythologies here to persons who are here to find out more about the Fifth Epochal Revelation? Why would you agree so enthusiastically? with a post with such an obvious purpose? That is why I used the word obfuscation. Let's bring what we are all belaboring over back to the stated purpose of this forum (as is stated in "FORUM RULES" on the first line at the top of this page)


Bill I always respect the monitors and admins rules and judgements on any forum I'm on because I respect the service they offer us in the maintaining a place to share that which is dear to us.

I thank you Bill and respect any decision or judgement you make. That's another thing I learned from our Lord and Master who even when unjustly accused, (which I'm not claiming at all) accepted the judgement of those in power to judge him. In his actions he teaches us. We all answer to a higher authority and it is THAT AUTHORITY that I would hate to offend, even though I know I do, because I Love that Ultimate Authority so much. May Our God and Our Father guide us and the example of Our Brother Jesus and the guidance of Our Holy Spirit ALWAYS be our guides.

Thank You Bill and I apologize for any offence I may have caused you or this forum.

I'm am thankful for the contribution of ALL in the discussion of these perspectives. Please feel free Bill to erase anything I have said that is not in accordance to forums rules according to your judgement my brother. There is nothing I've said that is worth more than the unity of Spirit of the members and administrators of this forum.

God bless you and us all.
;)

P.1899 - ß2 ... "Master, we know you are a righteous teacher, and we know that you proclaim the ways of truth, and that you serve only God, for you fear no man, and that you are no respecter of persons. We are only students, and we would know the truth about a matter which troubles us; our difficulty is this: Is it lawful for us to give tribute to Caesar? Shall we give or shall we not give?" Jesus, perceiving their hypocrisy and craftiness, said to them: "Why do you thus come to tempt me? Show me the tribute money, and I will answer you." And when they handed him a denarius, he looked at it and said, "Whose image and superscription does this coin bear?" And when they answered him, "Caesar's," Jesus said, "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's and render to God the things that are God's."

P.1579 - ß6 Jesus had great difficulty in getting them to understand his personal practice of nonresistance. He absolutely refused to defend himself, and it appeared to the apostles that he would be pleased if they would pursue the same policy. He taught them not to resist evil, not to combat injustice or injury, but he did not teach passive tolerance of wrongdoing. And he made it plain on this afternoon that he approved of the social punishment of evildoers and criminals, and that the civil government must sometimes employ force for the maintenance of social order and in the execution of justice.

P.1764 - ß1 Thus did Jesus teach the dangers and illustrate the unfairness of sitting in personal judgment upon one's fellows. Discipline must be maintained, justice must be administered, but in all these matters the wisdom of the brotherhood should prevail. Jesus invested legislative and judicial authority in the group, not in the individual. Even this investment of authority in the group must not be exercised as personal authority. There is always danger that the verdict of an individual may be warped by prejudice or distorted by passion. Group judgment is more likely to remove the dangers and eliminate the unfairness of personal bias. Jesus sought always to minimize the elements of unfairness, retaliation, and vengeance.
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will.

#37 Bill Martin

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 11:31 AM

Dear Joer, I can not recall that i ever erased anything that was posted here. I agreed with that action when others posted vile, personal attacks or when malicious prevarication made its way onto these pages.

In my life I have always seemed to learn more from an honest examination of my mis-steps, from a sincere examination of my mistakes. It would seem best to leave these "bumps in the road" to perfection for: humor, when we look back from a more exalted state of spiritual growth, and historicity, to leave no doubt whatsoever for the future that we were just like they are-that we had "feet of clay."
(After all everything we do and think is recorded.)

Every human right is associated with a social duty; group privilege is an insurance mechanism which unfailingly demands the full payment of the exacting premiums of group service. And group rights, as well as those of the individual, must be protected...(906-4)

P.316 - ß5 The universal economy is based on intake and output; throughout the eternal career you will never encounter monotony of inaction or stagnation of personality. Progress is made possible by inherent motion, advancement grows out of the divine capacity for action, and achievement is the child of imaginative adventure. But inherent in this capacity for achievement is the responsibility of ethics, the necessity for recognizing that the world and the universe are filled with a multitude of differing types of beings. All of this magnificent creation, including yourself, was not made just for you. This is not an egocentric universe. The Gods have decreed, "It is more blessed to give than to receive," and said your Master Son, "He who would be greatest among you let him be server of all."




Thank You JOER for your essential kindness and for being who you are.


Love,


Bill Martin
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#38 jessemilio

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 11:31 AM

Brothers and Sisters

On May 14 about 11 Am I put up a red flag concerning this subject, believe it or not my TA informed me that this was not a good subject to be posting because Tim was trying to justify his Mormon beliefs by using the UB and its history. As I pointed then that as you accept the teachings of the UB you put asside the teachings of the Bible, the same would apply to the book of Mormon. As it has turned out, I can say I told you so.

Brother Jess

#39 Midsoniter woman

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 11:58 AM

Happy Sabbath! ;)

I don't think anything in the UB prooves the Book of Mormon. But there is a lot of material that adds authenticity to my own experience in the church. Before I lived in the middle east, I had never experienced a sandstorm. I had only read about sandstorms in the UB when Jesus was crucified. The sky went dark and the people fled. The women hid behind a rock. When I started getting into terrible sandstorms I was filled with the memory of the UB description of the sandstorm. I felt assured that the UB was real and true. I told some UB readers that this is proof that the Urantia Book was real. Because it described a sandstorm perfectly. Well, the UB readers shot me down in cold blood. (They didn't shoot me with a rifle, only with their facial expressions.) Cold blooded seems to be a fitting description of UB readers sometimes. They said that describing a sandstorm is not proof because anyone who has lived in the middle east could have been in a sandstorm. And they are right. I was wrong. Describing a middle eastern sandstorm perfectly is not proof. But it did add authenticity to my experience with the Urantia. I hope this makes sense to you cold blooded UB readers out there.

Edited by Midsoniter woman, 31 May 2009 - 12:01 PM.

"If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man's rights, then sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men (Urantia Book, 938)."

#40 Bonita

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Posted 31 May 2009 - 12:48 PM

Jess and All,

On May 14 about 11 Am I put up a red flag concerning this subject, believe it or not my TA informed me that this was not a good subject to be posting because Tim was trying to justify his Mormon beliefs by using the UB and its history. As I pointed then that as you accept the teachings of the UB you put asside the teachings of the Bible, the same would apply to the book of Mormon. As it has turned out, I can say I told you so.


I'm not one to argue with TA's, but Jesus did not put aside the Bible, as it was known in his day. In fact, he quoted from it up until his dying breath.

p2010:3 187:5.2 Shortly after one o'clock, amidst the increasing darkness of the fierce sandstorm, Jesus began to fail in human consciousness. His last words of mercy, forgiveness, and admonition had been spoken. His last wishóconcerning the care of his motheróhad been expressed. During this hour of approaching death the human mind of Jesus resorted to the repetition of many passages in the Hebrew scriptures, particularly the Psalms. The last conscious thought of the human Jesus was concerned with the repetition in his mind of a portion of the Book of Psalms now known as the twentieth, twenty-first, and twenty-second Psalms. While his lips would often move, he was too weak to utter the words as these passages, which he so well knew by heart, would pass through his mind. Only a few times did those standing by catch some utterance, such as, "I know the Lord will save his anointed," "Your hand shall find out all my enemies," and "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Jesus did not for one moment entertain the slightest doubt that he had lived in accordance with the Father's will; and he never doubted that he was now laying down his life in the flesh in accordance with his Father's will. He did not feel that the Father had forsaken him; he was merely reciting in his vanishing consciousness many Scriptures, among them this twenty-second Psalm, which begins with "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" And this happened to be one of the three passages which were spoken with sufficient clearness to be heard by those standing by.


And even after death:

p2036:1 190:5.6 And then they said, the one to the other, "No wonder our hearts burned within us as he spoke to us while we walked along the road! and while he opened up to our understanding the teachings of the Scriptures!"


Jesus never put aside the scriptures. He attempted to elevate people's understanding of the scriptures. In fact, he included the best of the Hebrew scriptures in the teachings in his Gospel. He taught his apostles to read scripture looking for what is true and beautiful.

p1769:3 159:5.1 At Philadelphia, where James was working, Jesus taught the disciples about the positive nature of the gospel of the kingdom. When, in the course of his remarks, he intimated that some parts of the Scripture were more truth-containing than others and admonished his hearers to feed their souls upon the best of the spiritual food, James interrupted the Master, asking: "Would you be good enough, Master, to suggest to us how we may choose the better passages from the Scriptures for our personal edification?" And Jesus replied: "Yes, James, when you read the Scriptures look for those eternally true and divinely beautiful teachings, such as:

p1769:4 159:5.2 "Create in me a clean heart, O Lord.
p1769:5 159:5.3 "The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
p1769:6 159:5.4 "You should love your neighbor as yourself.
p1769:7 159:5.5 "For I, the Lord your God, will hold your right hand, saying, fear not; I will help you.
p1769:8 159:5.6 "Neither shall the nations learn war any more."


p1769:9 159:5.7 And this is illustrative of the way Jesus, day by day, appropriated the cream of the Hebrew scriptures for the instruction of his followers and for inclusion in the teachings of the new gospel of the kingdom.

p1839:2 167:5.5 Although Jesus did not offer new mandates governing marriage and divorce, he did urge the Jews to live up to their own laws and higher teachings. He constantly appealed to the written Scriptures in his effort to improve their practices along these social lines. While thus upholding the high and ideal concepts of marriage, Jesus skillfully avoided clashing with his questioners about the social practices represented by either their written laws or their much-cherished divorce privileges.



Folks, there are eternally true and divinely beautiful teachings in Mormon scripture, as in any other scripture, if you would only look for them without prejudice. All you need is the courage to trust.




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