Jump to content


Photo

A Look Into Other Religious Material


  • Please log in to reply
135 replies to this topic

#1 Tim Williams

Tim Williams

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 23 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Utah, USA
  • Interests:Astronomy<br />Computer Programming<br />Space Exploration<br />Theoretical Sciences<br />Common Sense + Knowledge = Wisdom<br />Growing things

Posted 14 May 2009 - 02:37 PM

On page 885 of the Urantia book, it states:

"In Mexico, Central America, and in the mountains of South America the later and more enduring civilizations were founded by a race predominantly red but containing a considerable admixture of the yellow, orange, and blue."

In my opinion, this would lend credence to the LDS (Mormon) faith's belief in the Book of Mormon. Both the Jaredites, as mentioned in the Book of Ether, came from the old world during the time of the "great tower" (Ether 1:33). Also, the Nephites, who came to the Americas around 600 BC, about when the nation of Israel were taken captive by Babylon. Also, the Mulekites, who were members of the royal house of Israel, also came to the Americas about 600 BC. These people founded great civilizations according to the Book of Mormon, and if in fact the books is accurate, would serve to detail the brief mention made these "enduring civilizations" which were made up of a "considerable admixture of the yellow, orange, and blue" races.

Also, on the same page the Urantia book suggests the American Indians (Red Men) never came into contact with the Andite offspring of Adam and Eve, since they were isolated in North/South America long before Adam and Eve. Then it states that some "...traces of Andite blood reached Peru." Another example lending proof to the Book of Mormon.

As I've always stated, since the Urantia book contains words that are meant to covey knowledge and truth, the difficulty has come in understanding the truth from the words. I say this because in all religions and in the Urantia book itself, I see many interpretations from just one passage/paper. I believe the only way we can focus and tune our minds to correctly interpreting what is being conveyed in the Urantia book is to find how it fits into what we already know, what we already understand, and what we already accept as truth.

Having said this, I, in my years of research into the Book of Mormon and other religions, and into the Urantia book, have never discovered a contradiction in the truths they all hold. If anything, the truths each religion holds, and which the Urantia book holds, serve to direct the mind correctly into finding the symmetry and truth behind all the words.

Just some thoughts.

How do you find Truth and know it's Truth and not your own mind's belief in the moment? I'd like to hear your thoughts as well, both on this and on the post above. Oh, and please, let's be respectful of each others different ideas and thoughts. No one is wrong here, just all explorers seeking truth. Thank you. :unsure:
Tim Williams
Avid Urantia Book reader
Truth Seeker in all walks of life
Member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

#2 Meredith Van Woert

Meredith Van Woert

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 2,270 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:California

Posted 14 May 2009 - 05:55 PM

Hello Tim,

We just read this in study group last night: "While your religion is a matter of personal experience, it is most important that you should be exposed to the knowledge of a vast number of other religious experiences (the diverse interpretations of other and diverse mortals) to the end that you may prevent your religious life from becoming egocentric--circumscribed, selfish, and unsocial." (p. 1130)

And the next pargraph goes on the say, "Rationalism is wrong when it assumes that religion is at first a primitive belief in something which is then followed by the pursuit of values. Religion is primarily a pursuit of values, and then there formulates a system of interpretative beliefs. It is much easier for men to agree on religious values--goals--than on beliefs--interpretations. And this explains how religion can agree on values and goals while exhibiting the confusing phenomenon of maintaining a belief in hundreds of conflicting beliefs--creeds. This also explains why a given person can maintain his religious experience in the face of giving up or changing many of his religious beliefs. Religion persists in spite of revolutionary changes in religious beliefs. Theology does not produce religion; it is religion that produces theologic philosophy."

Religion is primarily a pursuit of values. Values come first, and after that, people formulate a system of interpretive beliefs. So the Urantia Book says. It also says we should be exposed to the knowledge of a vast number of other religious experiences, and so on. It seems to me you are working on this in your efforts to put two books (the UB and the Book of Mormon) together in some way that is comprehensible to you and in ways that are agreeable to you where you find some commonality with them. I think the only way to find this commonality is to discover the values and goals discussed in the books.

The next paragraph on the page says this, "That religionists have believed so much that was false does not invalidate religion because religion is founded on the recognition of values and is validated by the faith of personal religious experience. Religion, then, is based on experience and religious thought; theology, the philosophy of religion, is an honest attempt to interpret that experience. Such interpretative beliefs may be right or wrong, or a mixture of truth and error." Again, we have the recognition of values. To me each person has to figure these things out for himself/herself. But it sounds to me like you have a passion for putting the two books together, and this probably works for you. A look into other religious material does have value. I think it is a personal pursuit. Each of us ". . . should be exposed to the knowledge of a vast number of other religious experiences (the diverse interpretations of other and diverse mortals). . . ."

We do not look into other religious material on the forum, except as it pertains to a particular UB topic in progress of discussion. There are probably dozens of other religious materials, books, tracts, etc., besides the Book of Mormon, people might like to discuss and make comparisons between and among, but not here on the forum. I'm sure you already know this. And this is a friendly reminder that the forum is about the Urantia Book.

To me your last comments sum up the topic you've started, "How do you find Truth and know it's Truth and not your own mind's belief in the moment? I'd like to hear your thoughts as well, both on this and on the post above. Oh, and please, let's be respectful of each others different ideas and thoughts. No one is wrong here, just all explorers seeking truth. Thank you. :unsure:"

I think you topic might be better titled "How do you find the Truth?"

Thanks, Tim, with all due respect to you and to others reading along.

Meredith


On page 885 of the Urantia book, it states:

"In Mexico, Central America, and in the mountains of South America the later and more enduring civilizations were founded by a race predominantly red but containing a considerable admixture of the yellow, orange, and blue."

In my opinion, this would lend credence to the LDS (Mormon) faith's belief in the Book of Mormon. Both the Jaredites, as mentioned in the Book of Ether, came from the old world during the time of the "great tower" (Ether 1:33). Also, the Nephites, who came to the Americas around 600 BC, about when the nation of Israel were taken captive by Babylon. Also, the Mulekites, who were members of the royal house of Israel, also came to the Americas about 600 BC. These people founded great civilizations according to the Book of Mormon, and if in fact the books is accurate, would serve to detail the brief mention made these "enduring civilizations" which were made up of a "considerable admixture of the yellow, orange, and blue" races.

Also, on the same page the Urantia book suggests the American Indians (Red Men) never came into contact with the Andite offspring of Adam and Eve, since they were isolated in North/South America long before Adam and Eve. Then it states that some "...traces of Andite blood reached Peru." Another example lending proof to the Book of Mormon.

As I've always stated, since the Urantia book contains words that are meant to covey knowledge and truth, the difficulty has come in understanding the truth from the words. I say this because in all religions and in the Urantia book itself, I see many interpretations from just one passage/paper. I believe the only way we can focus and tune our minds to correctly interpreting what is being conveyed in the Urantia book is to find how it fits into what we already know, what we already understand, and what we already accept as truth.

Having said this, I, in my years of research into the Book of Mormon and other religions, and into the Urantia book, have never discovered a contradiction in the truths they all hold. If anything, the truths each religion holds, and which the Urantia book holds, serve to direct the mind correctly into finding the symmetry and truth behind all the words.

Just some thoughts.

How do you find Truth and know it's Truth and not your own mind's belief in the moment? I'd like to hear your thoughts as well, both on this and on the post above. Oh, and please, let's be respectful of each others different ideas and thoughts. No one is wrong here, just all explorers seeking truth. Thank you. :D



#3 jessemilio

jessemilio

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 22 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sun City, Calif.
  • Interests:A student of The Urantia Book. A retired heavy equip. mechanic.

Posted 14 May 2009 - 10:50 PM

Tim

Well to say that your Mormon beliefs might be justified by the UB. It is an attempt to do just that. But when it comes down to it, as you study the UB you will find revelations that will slowly take you away from your search, just as it has taken me and the rest of the UB believers from the Bible. I still read the Bible but it has become more of a reference book than a study book. My alligiance has moved from the Bible to the Urantia Book. I too looked for ways to combine the beliefs of the Bible when I first read the UB. When I found out Jesus wasn't the Father of everthing I actually choked and for a minute it was hard to actually swallow. Your studies into the History of man is good and great but the study I pursue is the spiritual studies There found in Part I, & IV. There the ones that will guide you to Paradise. Trying to justify your Mormon faith is futile.

One note, the founder of the Mormon Church claimed to of have seen God, you should know by now "No man Sees God and lives."

In brotherly love ...Jess

#4 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 15 May 2009 - 09:53 AM

As I've always stated, since the Urantia book contains words that are meant to covey knowledge and truth, the difficulty has come in understanding the truth from the words. I say this because in all religions and in the Urantia book itself, I see many interpretations from just one passage/paper. I believe the only way we can focus and tune our minds to correctly interpreting what is being conveyed in the Urantia book is to find how it fits into what we already know, what we already understand, and what we already accept as truth.


TUB agrees with you. Revelation expands and builds upon what we already know and understand.

p1007:1 92:4.1 Revelation is evolutionary but always progressive. Down through the ages of a world's history, the revelations of religion are ever-expanding and successively more enlightening. It is the mission of revelation to sort and censor the successive religions of evolution. But if revelation is to exalt and upstep the religions of evolution, then must such divine visitations portray teachings which are not too far removed from the thought and reactions of the age in which they are presented. Thus must and does revelation always keep in touch with evolution.Always must the religion of revelation be limited by man's capacity of receptivity.

#5 Midsoniter woman

Midsoniter woman

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 383 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Arizona
  • Interests:politics

Posted 15 May 2009 - 03:48 PM

Yes, Bonita is like a Frandalank or a Chonoldek. She found the quote we need. Our revelations will respond to our evolutionary religion. Jesus came up with his gospel of the kingdom as a response to the Jewish religion. Jesus would have preferred to scrap the kingdom idea and just talk about family and fatherhood. Jesus never stopped going to the synagogue and never stopped celebrating Jewish holidays, but he did try to correct as much error as he could safely. I am an LDS church member and I don't find it necessary to throw the whole church away just because there are errors here and there. I thank God I have the UB to teach me the truth about the atonement doctrine, etc. I thank God for the church that provides me with a healthy lifestyle and fellowship. I don't expect perfection from the other scriptures. But Jesus would have us take the cream of the crop from all religions just the way he and Ganid did when they made a compilation of all planetary religions.

I did not remember reading about Andite blood coming to America from Peru. Thankyou for pointing this out. I suppose that could have been the Nephites. But for some reason I always envisoned the Nephites landing in New Jersey. :unsure: But America is big, two continents actually.

I like the morontia Jesus appearnce to the Nephites. It sounds exactly like the morontia appearances in the Urantia Book. It is possible that Jesus made too many morontia appearances for the midwayers to tell us about. And if a certain group of people received a morontia Jesus appearance, it would have been recorded somewhere. In the Nephites' case, they had to bury the record in the ground because they were all killed by Lamanites in the end. It makes a lot of sense. The record stayed underground until they were found by a man named Joseph Smith in the 1800's. He probably wasn't a prophet in the UB definition of the word. He was probably just a dude that found a buried record of a morontia appearance here in America. Can't blame him for starting a new religion based on it.

Edited by Midsoniter woman, 15 May 2009 - 03:51 PM.

"If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man's rights, then sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men (Urantia Book, 938)."

#6 Nigel Nunn

Nigel Nunn

    Poster

  • Administrators
  • PipPip
  • 1,118 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 15 May 2009 - 11:26 PM

In this context, this paragraph always intrigues:

One hundred and thirty-two of this race, embarking in a fleet of small boats from Japan, eventually reached South America and by intermarriage with the natives of the Andes established the ancestry of the later rulers of the Incas. They crossed the Pacific by easy stages, tarrying on the many islands they found along the way. The islands of the Polynesian group were both more numerous and larger then than now, and these Andite sailors, together with some who followed them, biologically modified the native groups in transit. Many flourishing centers of civilization grew up on these now submerged lands as a result of Andite penetration. Easter Island was long a religious and administrative center of one of these lost groups. But of the Andites who navigated the Pacific of long ago none but the one hundred and thirty-two ever reached the mainland of the Americas. [p.873:3]

Nigel

#7 Bill Martin

Bill Martin

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 941 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rio Dulce, Izabal, Guatemala
  • Interests:destiny interception, kindred spirits, Sailing my ketch, cooking, reading ( a book a day, if possible), helping fellow sojurners on the path of righteousness.I am most interested in building strong relationships with fellow kingdom builders knowing that we will be serving together, off and on, through time and into eternity.

Posted 16 May 2009 - 09:46 PM

Michael had an omniscient God's-eye understanding of Urantia. He knew the collective receptivity capacity of the different groups as studied and presented to him by his Bright and Morning Star plus the Elder Brother's mission statement and advice. He knew all beforehand and chose to go with the "bare-bones" simple concept of the Gospel of the Kingdom. We are all children of ONE FATHER.

Yet even this simple-to-grasp concept was washed aside in the emotional flood-tide occasioned by his resurrection and left to lie dormant for thousands of years. Yet this very simple idea has the power to bring unity to all religions. We are told that this gospel will one day rule this world;

The Fifth Epochal Revelation makes few concessions to the synthetic human viewpoint, instead starting at the center and source of all reality and proceeding outward from the Paradise Area and the Central Shining to the myriad evolutionary universes of time and space.

We conjecture here about this or that fact, corellations from one religion or belief system to statements in the papers, and sometimes the simple truths elude our sight like will-o-the-wisps. Love IS the desire to do good to others and all women are my sisters and all men are my brothers. My treatment and relationship to them should begin with this love and build from that reality. This is the simplicity of the Master's message that can only be had by the living, this is the sustenance that feeds the soul growth and unifies the personality to be like God because God is LOVE.

A lifetime of diligent study of the Urantia Book should prepare you to treat with all sorts of strange philosophies and isms, all the while on the lookout for that grain of truth in an other's thoughts and words that can be amplified upon and expanded to crowd out the shadow, all the while filling up the space separating you with the light of love.

Ultimately we are transformed and uplifted by service to our fellows. Giving makes you greater.

The greatest gift I know of to give is the truth that God is a loving Father and as his children we can through simple faith become more and more like Him.


This is THE TRUTH that will bring some order to this confused corner of a magnificent and loving universe.
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#8 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 17 May 2009 - 11:04 AM

The greatest gift I know of to give is the truth that God is a loving Father and as his children we can through simple faith become more and more like Him.
This is THE TRUTH that will bring some order to this confused corner of a magnificent and loving universe.


But giving sacred scripture, books, and empty words copied from those sources is not necessarily a gift of the Gospel of living truth. These sources easily become fetishes which stifle the spiritual imagination ultimately segregating, isolating and imprisoning the fetishists.

p969:4 88:2.6 Words eventually became fetishes, more especially those which were regarded as God's words; in this way the sacred books of many religions have become fetishistic prisons incarcerating the spiritual imagination of man. Moses' very effort against fetishes became a supreme fetish; his commandment was later used to stultify art and to retard the enjoyment and adoration of the beautiful.

p969:5 88:2.7 In olden times the fetish word of authority was a fear-inspiring doctrine, the most terrible of all tyrants which enslave men. A doctrinal fetish will lead mortal man to betray himself into the clutches of bigotry, fanaticism, superstition, intolerance, and the most atrocious of barbarous cruelties. Modern respect for wisdom and truth is but the recent escape from the fetish-making tendency up to the higher levels of thinking and reasoning. Concerning the accumulated fetish writings which various religionists hold as sacred books, it is not only believed that what is in the book is true, but also that every truth is contained in the book. If one of these sacred books happens to speak of the earth as being flat, then, for long generations, otherwise sane men and women will refuse to accept positive evidence that the planet is round.

p969:6 88:2.8 The practice of opening one of these sacred books to let the eye chance upon a passage, the following of which may determine important life decisions or projects, is nothing more nor less than arrant fetishism. To take an oath on a "holy book" or to swear by some object of supreme veneration is a form of refined fetishism.

p969:7 88:2.9 But it does represent real evolutionary progress to advance from the fetish fear of a savage chief's fingernail trimmings to the adoration of a superb collection of letters, laws, legends, allegories, myths, poems, and chronicles which, after all, reflect the winnowed moral wisdom of many centuries, at least up to the time and event of their being assembled as a "sacred book."

p970:1 88:2.10 To become fetishes, words had to be considered inspired, and the invocation of supposed divinely inspired writings led directly to the establishment of the authority of the church, while the evolution of civil forms led to the fruition of the authority of the state.


To learn to appreciate words as an expression of a person's longing for God with the intent of discovering the truth each writer discovered for himself and then respecting those writings for that reason alone would be a huge leap forward in my opinion. And that would include TUB which was written by persons (albeit divine) for a group of men and women seeking to discover truth.

#9 Bill Martin

Bill Martin

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 941 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rio Dulce, Izabal, Guatemala
  • Interests:destiny interception, kindred spirits, Sailing my ketch, cooking, reading ( a book a day, if possible), helping fellow sojurners on the path of righteousness.I am most interested in building strong relationships with fellow kingdom builders knowing that we will be serving together, off and on, through time and into eternity.

Posted 17 May 2009 - 02:26 PM

With the work I have been doing lately, the Urantia Book just gets in the way. The transformations it has worked on my mid-mind and the truth and concept tools I have gleaned from its pages have, however, held me in good stead over the long-haul. Every and any one seeking truth and enlightenment will profit from its study. That said, it is not for everybody, Some are more comfortable with the religions of authority, more comfortable with truth dished out on a plate, as it were, rather than living on the becoming edge of "realityization" fired and fueled by simple faith.

The Fifth Epochal Revelation is exactly that. It comes from above/within/beyond. It will help Mormons be better Mormons and any religionist will find leaven to enliven and reveal the truths within their churches. Sunday School is a good place to take your newfound insights as is the street or grocery store or synagogue. Anywhere the Spirit moves you to share the wealth of your inner self, anytime you get a chance to do the "next right thing," you foster the growth of the Finite God-God the Supreme on this planet.

The celestials (and midwayer commission) who wrote the papers are all on their own personal search for living truth, as are we fortunates who have enjoyed the materiel of the Papers and the tutelage of our Spirits, both personal and pre-personal. We should all venerate and share truth as we find it, as the sharing is what gives it value.
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#10 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 18 May 2009 - 07:43 AM

With the work I have been doing lately, the Urantia Book just gets in the way. The transformations it has worked on my mid-mind and the truth and concept tools I have gleaned from its pages have, however, held me in good stead over the long-haul.


This reminds me so much of the following quote:

p1091:6  99:5.7 Just as certainly as men share their religious beliefs, they create a religious group of some sort which eventually creates common goals. Someday religionists will get together and actually effect co-operation on the basis of unity of ideals and purposes rather than attempting to do so on the basis of psychological opinions and theological beliefs. Goals rather than creeds should unify religionists. Since true religion is a matter of personal spiritual experience, it is inevitable that each individual religionist must have his own and personal interpretation of the realization of that spiritual experience. Let the term "faith" stand for the individual's relation to God rather than for the creedal formulation of what some group of mortals have been able to agree upon as a common religious attitude. "Have you faith? Then have it to yourself."

#11 Meredith Van Woert

Meredith Van Woert

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 2,270 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:California

Posted 18 May 2009 - 10:25 AM

Even so, there is an outward urge to share faith with our fellows. I speak of my own urge. There is a mutual satisfaction to be on the same page, so to speak. Groups emerge when an effective leader does something to draw his/her fellows into the vision of the leader's personal religious experience - and does this with such certainty and such conviction that others follow him/her. Creedal formulations develop, and so on. I'm sure it is much more complicated than that, but leadership is involved and the gathering together of like-minded people. Religious fellowshipping with like-minded people is deeply satisfying, nourishing, uplifting. I am revitalized for the days ahead when I meet regularly with others for the purpose of religious study, discussion and much humor sprinkled in.

Meredith


This reminds me so much of the following quote:

p1091:6  99:5.7 Just as certainly as men share their religious beliefs, they create a religious group of some sort which eventually creates common goals. Someday religionists will get together and actually effect co-operation on the basis of unity of ideals and purposes rather than attempting to do so on the basis of psychological opinions and theological beliefs. Goals rather than creeds should unify religionists. Since true religion is a matter of personal spiritual experience, it is inevitable that each individual religionist must have his own and personal interpretation of the realization of that spiritual experience. Let the term "faith" stand for the individual's relation to God rather than for the creedal formulation of what some group of mortals have been able to agree upon as a common religious attitude. "Have you faith? Then have it to yourself."



#12 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 18 May 2009 - 11:31 AM

Even so, there is an outward urge to share faith with our fellows. I speak of my own urge. There is a mutual satisfaction to be on the same page, so to speak. Groups emerge when an effective leader does something to draw his/her fellows into the vision of the leader's personal religious experience - and does this with such certainty and such conviction that others follow him/her. Creedal formulations develop, and so on. I'm sure it is much more complicated than that, but leadership is involved and the gathering together of like-minded people. Religious fellowshipping with like-minded people is deeply satisfying, nourishing, uplifting. I am revitalized for the days ahead when I meet regularly with others for the purpose of religious study, discussion and much humor sprinkled in.


They do say that sharing is divine. God shares himself with us and we are learning to share ourselves with him. I'm just wondering what kind of sharing goes on in some religious groups. Do people actually share themselves or just their ideas? Why groups so often turn to the business of sharing ideas of how others should be and think is what gets stuck in my craw. I think that is what TUB means by "have it to yourself". Meaning, don't try to tell anyone else how to live a religious life, just live your own to the best of your ability. I also think it is why TUB says that the study of someone else's religion is called psychology. We try to figure out what makes others tick internally. And, that is why being with religiously like-minded people is so comforting. There's no need to analyze the other person's motives because they are expected to be in alignment with your own.

I agree that leadership must have a lot to do with it. It is easy to get behind a leader and adopt his/her ideas rather than come up with your own as a result of personal religious experience with God himself, the real leader. It's true that someone else's personal experience often seems so much more exciting to someone who hasn't had a personal religious experience in the first place, especially if that leader is charismatic and convincing. Look at all the prophets who have had religions started in their name and wonder to yourself why do people buy into it. I think we're all still looking for our Planetary Prince and especially our Material Son and Daughter as visible spiritual leaders. That's why the Jesus message turned into a religion about him. Material men and women feel much more secure with a material being to follow. Thought Adjusters and the Spirit of Truth are just not enough for some folks. I think it's going to take a really, really long time for us to put TUB's teachings about unity into practice if the life of the Spirit continues to be so scary for so many people. Fear and intolerance go hand in hand, like the blind leading the blind.

#13 Meredith Van Woert

Meredith Van Woert

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 2,270 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:California

Posted 18 May 2009 - 05:02 PM

They do say that sharing is divine. God shares himself with us and we are learning to share ourselves with him. I'm just wondering what kind of sharing goes on in some religious groups. Do people actually share themselves or just their ideas? Why groups so often turn to the business of sharing ideas of how others should be and think is what gets stuck in my craw. I think that is what TUB means by "have it to yourself". Meaning, don't try to tell anyone else how to live a religious life, just live your own to the best of your ability. I also think it is why TUB says that the study of someone else's religion is called psychology. We try to figure out what makes others tick internally. And, that is why being with religiously like-minded people is so comforting. There's no need to analyze the other person's motives because they are expected to be in alignment with your own.


The quest for truth is a process, and there is always more to discover, more to learn, more to share. I imagine there is no end to this process, once a person has been born of the Spirit and has consecrated his/her will to be ever more in alignment with God's will. "Thy will be done on earth, as it is in heaven." Would Urantia Book readers like to change this to say, "God's will be done on Urantia, as it is in Havona"? Probably not. Other words might be substituted or rearranged to get the same meaning, "Not my will, but Yours." "It is my will that Your will be done." Whatever words are preferred, the expression is individual and personal.

I thought this was interesting, as it pertains to God's relation to the individual:

"The experience of God-consciousness remains the same from generation to generation, but with each advancing epoch in human knowledge the philosophic concept and the theologic definitions of God must change. God-knowingness, religious consciousness, is a universe reality, but no matter how valid (real) religious experience is, it must be willing to subject itself to intelligent criticism and reasonable philosophic interpretation; it must not seek to be a thing apart in the totality of human experience." (69)


God's relation to the group is another matter. The Social Architects may be at work in groups:

3. Social Architects. From the individual planets up through the morontia training worlds, these seraphim labor to enhance all sincere social contacts and to further the social evolution of universe creatures. These are the angels who seek to divest the associations of intelligent beings of all artificiality while endeavoring to facilitate the interassociation of will creatures on a basis of real self-understanding and genuine mutual appreciation. (432)


And further:

""Social architects do everything within their province and power to bring together suitable individuals that they may constitute efficient and agreeable working groups on earth; and sometimes such groups have found themselves reassociated on the mansion worlds for continued fruitful service. But not always do these seraphim attain their ends; not always are they able to bring together those who would form the most ideal group to achieve a given purpose or to accomplish a certain task; under these conditions they must utilize the best of the material available."


Meredith

Edited by Meredith Van Woert, 18 May 2009 - 07:26 PM.


#14 Bill Martin

Bill Martin

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 941 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rio Dulce, Izabal, Guatemala
  • Interests:destiny interception, kindred spirits, Sailing my ketch, cooking, reading ( a book a day, if possible), helping fellow sojurners on the path of righteousness.I am most interested in building strong relationships with fellow kingdom builders knowing that we will be serving together, off and on, through time and into eternity.

Posted 18 May 2009 - 10:42 PM

The Social Architects want you to get on with what you should be doing now, what you could have already begun, what you will address in remediation if you succumb to procrastination down here. This has been in the back of my mind lately (for ten or twenty years) that people I have experienced difficulties with in the "movement"(yes, the bill martin-self, unconstrained by the benificience of morontia mota CAN be difficult), will be those I am required to work effectively ( as a lesson in growth) on the first mansonia worlds and that i might as well reach an approachment, an understanding and a working relationship with them while still on the nativity sphere.

What has seemed to work was Jesus' advice to go to them personally and discuss things, having prayed and done my best to forgive beforehand. This has helped relationship-wise and does not always lead immediately to the ability to effectivly work in a cooperative manner, but has indeed removed many of those self-induced barriers of artifice and affectation that so stubbornly stymie the growth of unity.


These angels know the extremely Supreme value of us "getting it" down here and getting on with the program, while still agondonters-"inventing ourselves" as it were, without being told.It also seems to be the pattern (experimentally speaking) when you look back and recall , for instance, the replies to the Melchizedek Recievers from Headquarters upon their request for direction on how to deal with the very real danger of the "light of life" dying out on this world. Confidence was expressed in their ability to deal effectively with their problem. And they did with inventive, creative persistence.

This is the quality the gardeners in charge of this nursery are trying to develop in the higher cultivars of human spirituality- the willingness and ability to persist in doing the right thing even when no one is watching and when all alone, and especially when all hope is lost and things look really bleak.

I think this is what they are referring to when the rhetorical question is posed, " what does it matter to the kingdom believer if the whole world crashes."
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#15 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 18 May 2009 - 10:57 PM

Bill, what you wrote reminds me of this quote:

You cannot truly love your fellows by a mere act of the will. Love is only born of thoroughgoing understanding of your neighbor's motives and sentiments. It is not so important to love all men today as it is that each day you learn to love one more human being. If each day or each week you achieve an understanding of one more of your fellows, and if this is the limit of your ability, then you are certainly socializing and truly spiritualizing your personality. Love is infectious, and when human devotion is intelligent and wise, love is more catching than hate. But only genuine and unselfish love is truly contagious. If each mortal could only become a focus of dynamic affection, this benign virus of love would soon pervade the sentimental emotion-stream of humanity to such an extent that all civilization would be encompassed by love, and that would be the realization of the brotherhood of man.1097:03

#16 Bill Martin

Bill Martin

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 941 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rio Dulce, Izabal, Guatemala
  • Interests:destiny interception, kindred spirits, Sailing my ketch, cooking, reading ( a book a day, if possible), helping fellow sojurners on the path of righteousness.I am most interested in building strong relationships with fellow kingdom builders knowing that we will be serving together, off and on, through time and into eternity.

Posted 18 May 2009 - 11:04 PM

Yes Bonnie,

And those real hard-to-love ones...you can start off by loving the good parts, or loving what they will become one day, or in extremis, directing your love deep within them to the real seed...
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#17 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 19 May 2009 - 07:32 AM

Bill,

I agree that it is so hard to do that. It is easy to love someone's soul, but Jesus asked us to love the person, not just the soul. I often wondered what he meant by that. If the personality comes from God as well as the soul, then I'm sure I should work hard at loving as much of a person I can. If I can't do it with my will alone, then I can pray for it to happen by praying for the person and engaging in a relationship with him or her. But what do you do if the relationship is abusive? Turn the other cheek?

By "turn the other cheek" Jesus meant to offer something positive to the abusing person. In ancient times it was considered the worst condescension to slap someone on the face with the back of your hand. Slaves were often reprimanded that way. By turning the other cheek, the abuser was forced to strike again with the palm of the hand, thus demanding respect from him. It was a symbolic statement meant to say that we must always attempt to return positive for negative, good for evil. Is forgiving the abuser good enough, or do we have to do more than that? Is forgiveness only the first mile?

When Jesus said we have to love the whole person I wonder if he was saying that only forgiving a person does not engage all aspects of one's self in the relationship with the other person. A whole hearted forgiveness would require all aspects of one's personality engaged with all aspects of another's personality to qualify as being "whole". Right?

This is very, very difficult to do without actually meeting a person and getting involved person to person. This goes for individuals, groups, nations and "churches". We are beginning to see some of this in recent times which is why I think some fundamentalist sects cling so rigidly to their beliefs out of fear that they may lose them by amalgamation through the discovery that they can love people with different beliefs. I agree that it is a process, but one that requires devoted, vigilant attentiveness of one's entire personality to God's will, the service of living love.

The universe fact of God's becoming man has forever changed all meanings and altered all values of human personality. In the true meaning of the word, love connotes mutual regard of whole personalities, whether human or divine or human and divine. Parts of the self may function in numerous ways--thinking, feeling, wishing--but only the co-ordinated attributes of the whole personality are focused in intelligent action; and all of these powers are associated with the spiritual endowment of the mortal mind when a human being sincerely and unselfishly loves another being, human or divine. 1228:02

As I have revealed the Father, so shall you reveal the divine love, not merely with words, but in your daily living. I send you forth, not to love the souls of men, but rather to love men. . . . Your mission to the world is founded on the fact that I lived a God-revealing life among you; on the truth that you and all other men are the sons of God; and it shall consist in the life which you will live among men—the actual and living experience of loving men and serving them, even as I have loved and served you. Let faith reveal your light to the world; let the revelation of truth open the eyes blinded by tradition; let your loving service effectually destroy the prejudice engendered by ignorance. By so drawing close to your fellow men in understanding sympathy and with unselfish devotion, you will lead them into a saving knowledge of the Father's love. The Jews have extolled goodness; the Greeks have exalted beauty; the Hindus preach devotion; the faraway ascetics teach reverence; the Romans demand loyalty; but I require of my disciples life, even a life of loving service for your brothers in the flesh." p2043:1 191:5.3



#18 Meredith Van Woert

Meredith Van Woert

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 2,270 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:California

Posted 20 May 2009 - 11:53 AM

Hello,

We haven't yet received a reply from Tim on our comments on his topic, "A Look Into Other Religious Material." The topic provides an opportunity to reflect on the influences religous traditions and religious books have had and continue to have on many of us in this day and age.

While looking in the UB for something else, I found an interesting series of paragraphs from the words of Jesus to Nathaniel when Nathaniel asked him, among other things, "What is the truth about the Scriptures?" (1769) Here is part of Jesus' reply to him:

"'The authority of truth is the very spirit that indwells its living manifestations, and not the dead words of the less illuminated and supposedly inspired men of another generation. And even if these holy men of old lived inspired and spirit-filled lives, that does not mean that their words were similarly spiritually inspired. Today we make no record of the teachings of this gospel of the kingdom lest, when I have gone, you speedily become divided up into sundry groups of truth contenders as a result of the diversity of your interpretation of my teachings. For this generation it is best that we live these truths while we shun the making of records.

"'Mark you well my words, Nathaniel, nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible. Through the mind of man divine truth may indeed shine forth, but always of relative purity and partial divinity. The creature may crave infallibility, but only the Creators possess it.

"'But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scriptures is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret. The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.

"'But the saddest feature of all is the fact that some of the teachers of the sanctity of this traditionalism know this very truth. They more or less fully understand these limitations of Scripture, but they are moral cowards, intellectually dishonest. They know the truth regarding the sacred writings, but they prefer to withhold such disturbing facts from the people. And thus do they pervert and distort the Scriptures, making them the guide to slavish details of the daily life and an authority in things nonspiritual instead of appealing to the sacred writings as the repository of the moral wisdom, religious inspiration, and the spiritual teaching of the God-knowing men of other generations.'"


Meredith

#19 Bill Martin

Bill Martin

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 941 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rio Dulce, Izabal, Guatemala
  • Interests:destiny interception, kindred spirits, Sailing my ketch, cooking, reading ( a book a day, if possible), helping fellow sojurners on the path of righteousness.I am most interested in building strong relationships with fellow kingdom builders knowing that we will be serving together, off and on, through time and into eternity.

Posted 21 May 2009 - 07:50 PM

Carrying the pack a second mile was what you did if you couldn't think of something more positive to do. Turning the other cheek is a vast improvement over violent retaliation but still must be followed up by some sort of action, not just doe-eyed silence. There is a soul and a spirit in that person abusing you and loving them is a good start but their mind needs to be engaged so that at least they are aware their behavior involves choices they are making.

Loving in return for ill-treatment ias not the same as masochism. You are not enjoying the abuse. Giving love to the sinner, repudiating the sin with a few heartfelt words, and possibly enduring more abuse, takes an inner strength that most "manly men" do not possess or even understand. Women generally have a better grasp.

Loving the "whole person" I think involves not judging their actions, looking past their actions and your own forgiveness. If this does not reach their soul, perhaps it will reach their conscience and affect their moral stature somehow, now or later.

b

P.S. If they have no soul, none of the above applies, and "all bets are off."
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#20 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 22 May 2009 - 04:30 PM

Carrying the pack a second mile was what you did if you couldn't think of something more positive to do. Turning the other cheek is a vast improvement over violent retaliation but still must be followed up by some sort of action, not just doe-eyed silence.

I agree that Jesus asks us to do something, to actually live the Gospel. I thought I would supply the appropriate quotes.

p1769:10 159:5.8 Jesus' religion consisted not merely in believing, but in actually doing, those things which the gospel required.

p1770:1 159:5.9 Said he: "When an enemy smites you on one cheek, do not stand there dumb and passive but in positive attitude turn the other; that is, do the best thing possible actively to lead your brother in error away from the evil paths into the better ways of righteous living." Jesus required his followers to react positively and aggressively to every life situation. The turning of the other cheek, or whatever act that may typify, demands initiative, necessitates vigorous, active, and courageous expression of the believer's personality.

p1770:2 159:5.10 Jesus did not advocate the practice of negative submission to the indignities of those who might purposely seek to impose upon the practitioners of nonresistance to evil, but rather that his followers should be wise and alert in the quick and positive reaction of good to evil to the end that they might effectively overcome evil with good. Forget not, the truly good is invariably more powerful than the most malignant evil. The Master taught a positive standard of righteousness: "Whosoever wishes to be my disciple, let him disregard himself and take up the full measure of his responsibilities daily to follow me." And he so lived himself in that "he went about doing good." And this aspect of the gospel was well illustrated by many parables which he later spoke to his followers. He never exhorted his followers patiently to bear their obligations but rather with energy and enthusiasm to live up to the full measure of their human responsibilities and divine privileges in the kingdom of God.

p1770:3 159:5.11 When Jesus instructed his apostles that they should, when one unjustly took away the coat, offer the other garment, he referred not so much to a literal second coat as to the idea of doing something positive to save the wrongdoer in the place of the olden advice to retaliate—"an eye for an eye" and so on. Jesus abhorred the idea either of retaliation or of becoming just a passive sufferer or victim of injustice. On this occasion he taught them the three ways of contending with, and resisting, evil:

p1770:4 1. To return evil for evil—the positive but unrighteous method.
p1770:5 2. To suffer evil without complaint and without resistance—the purely negative method.
p1770:6 3. To return good for evil, to assert the will so as to become master of the situation, to overcome evil with good—the positive and righteous method.

There is a soul and a spirit in that person abusing you and loving them is a good start but their mind needs to be engaged so that at least they are aware their behavior involves choices they are making.


p1705:3 152:6.3 The second night of their sojourn at Gennesaret the Master again told the apostles the parable of the sower and added these words: "You see, my children, the appeal to human feelings is transitory and utterly disappointing; the exclusive appeal to the intellect of man is likewise empty and barren; it is only by making your appeal to the spirit which lives within the human mind that you can hope to achieve lasting success and accomplish those marvelous transformations of human character that are presently shown in the abundant yielding of the genuine fruits of the spirit in the daily lives of all who are thus delivered from the darkness of doubt by the birth of the spirit into the light of faith—the kingdom of heaven."

p1705:4 152:6.4 Jesus taught the appeal to the emotions as the technique of arresting and focusing the intellectual attention. He designated the mind thus aroused and quickened as the gateway to the soul, where there resides that spiritual nature of man which must recognize truth and respond to the spiritual appeal of the gospel in order to afford the permanent results of true character transformations.

Loving in return for ill-treatment ias not the same as masochism. You are not enjoying the abuse. Giving love to the sinner, repudiating the sin with a few heartfelt words, and possibly enduring more abuse, takes an inner strength that most "manly men" do not possess or even understand. Women generally have a better grasp.


p2084:5  195:10.5 In winning souls for the Master, it is not the first mile of compulsion, duty, or convention that will transform man and his world, but rather the second mile of free service and liberty-loving devotion that betokens the Jesusonian reaching forth to grasp his brother in love and sweep him on under spiritual guidance toward the higher and divine goal of mortal existence. Christianity even now willingly goes the first mile, but mankind languishes and stumbles along in moral darkness because there are so few genuine second-milers—so few professed followers of Jesus who really live and love as he taught his disciples to live and love and serve.

Loving the "whole person" I think involves not judging their actions, looking past their actions and your own forgiveness. If this does not reach their soul, perhaps it will reach their conscience and affect their moral stature somehow, now or later.


p2018:1 188:5.2 Divine love does not merely forgive wrongs; it absorbs and actually destroys them. The forgiveness of love utterly transcends the forgiveness of mercy. Mercy sets the guilt of evil-doing to one side; but love destroys forever the sin and all weakness resulting therefrom. Jesus brought a new method of living to Urantia. He taught us not to resist evil but to find through him a goodness which effectually destroys evil. The forgiveness of Jesus is not condonation; it is salvation from condemnation. Salvation does not slight wrongs; it makes them right. True love does not compromise nor condone hate; it destroys it. The love of Jesus is never satisfied with mere forgiveness. The Master's love implies rehabilitation, eternal survival. It is altogether proper to speak of salvation as redemption if you mean this eternal rehabilitation.

So what of the person without a soul? What is our responsibility toward him/her? TUB tells us that soul death is irrevocable despite the fact that the person may go on living. But the angels still administer to that personality despite there being no soul. So, do we have to also or can we run like hell?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users