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Apparent Contradictions


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#61 Rick Warren

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 12:55 PM

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WAIT! I get it now. The UB author was just being polite when he used the word diverse. That was just a diplomatic way of saying that the seraphim are not perfect. The Mother Spirit is capable of producing perfect angels, but instead they are "diverse." So when I make another fashion mistake you can just say, "Oh My...Jessica, you're looking very diverse this evening I must say."


Ha! Good one, have to remember it, Jessica! :)

Here's the reply to the puzzled reader that I thought fit the question:

Hi xxxxx,

They don't contradict if you read them closely. In the intro to Paper 38, the Melchizedek states they aren't that diverse. In the intro to Paper 39, the Melchizedek is stating that THESE particular seraphim are diverse, he's saying they are an exception. He goes on to posit that: "...This diversity may be a result of the unknown interposition of evolving experiential Deity...."


38:0.3 The seraphim are all fairly uniform in design. From universe to universe,
throughout all seven of the superuniverses, they show a minimum of variation;
they are the most nearly standard of all spirit types of personal beings.

39:0.1
AS FAR as we are cognizant, the Infinite Spirit, as personalized on the local
universe headquarters, intends to produce uniformly perfect seraphim, but for
some unknown reason these seraphic offspring are very diverse.


No? Rick



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#62 Bonita

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 01:24 PM

As far as I can tell, that's what I said.

#63 Teobeck

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 08:52 PM

So It seems that "these" diverse Seraphim are only in our local Universe, even though the intention was for uniformity?

#64 Midsoniter woman

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 10:57 AM

"The advanced stages of a world settled in light and life represent the acme of evolutionary material development. On these cultured worlds, gone are the idleness and friction of the earlier primitive ages. Poverty and social inequality have all but vanished, degeneracy has disappeared, and delinquency is rarely observed. Insanity has practically ceased to exist, and feeble-mindedness is a rarity (629)."

"Reproduction is regulated in accordance with planetary requirement and innate hereditary endowments: The mortals on a planet during this age are divided into from five to ten groups, and the lower groups are permitted to produce only one half as many children as the higher (630)."


I found an apparent contradiction as I was gathering quotes for my post on the other thread. Social inequality has been vanquished? And yet the lower classes are not allowed to produce more offspring than the higher classes? What kind of social equality do you call that?
"If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man's rights, then sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men (Urantia Book, 938)."

#65 Old Soul

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 01:25 PM

"The advanced stages of a world settled in light and life represent the acme of evolutionary material development. On these cultured worlds, gone are the idleness and friction of the earlier primitive ages. Poverty and social inequality have all but vanished, degeneracy has disappeared, and delinquency is rarely observed. Insanity has practically ceased to exist, and feeble-mindedness is a rarity (629)."

"Reproduction is regulated in accordance with planetary requirement and innate hereditary endowments: The mortals on a planet during this age are divided into from five to ten groups, and the lower groups are permitted to produce only one half as many children as the higher (630)."

And these quotes are found in what Paper?
5:1.8 The Father desires all his creatures to be in personal communion with him.

#66 Old Soul

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Posted 28 July 2010 - 01:38 PM

(1)"The advanced stages of a world settled in light and life represent the acme of evolutionary material development. On these cultured worlds, gone are the idleness and friction of the earlier primitive ages. Poverty and social inequality have all but vanished, degeneracy has disappeared, and delinquency is rarely observed. Insanity has practically ceased to exist, and feeble-mindedness is a rarity (629)."

(2)"Reproduction is regulated in accordance with planetary requirement and innate hereditary endowments: The mortals on a planet during this age are divided into from five to ten groups, and the lower groups are permitted to produce only one half as many children as the higher (630)."


I found an apparent contradiction as I was gathering quotes for my post on the other thread. Social inequality has been vanquished? And yet the lower classes are not allowed to produce more offspring than the higher classes? What kind of social equality do you call that?


If you will notice, the one is refering to (1) social inequality and the other is refering to (2) biological inequality. Very simple. No contradiction. And it does not say social inequality has been "vanquished"; it says all but vanished (which means it still exists but in a far lesser degree).

The word "vanquished" means subdued completely or overcome. The word "vanished" means to pass completely from existence. There is a difference in the words used. The revelators were saying that social inequality still exists "all but vanished".

Anyway, no contradiction as I see it.
5:1.8 The Father desires all his creatures to be in personal communion with him.

#67 Midsoniter woman

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Posted 29 July 2010 - 09:46 AM

Sorry, Ol' Soul, I was trying to remember to include the paper # for you and your book version, but I forgot. It's paper 55 chapter 5. Anyway, you could be right about your interpretation. But it doesn't make sense to me.
"If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man's rights, then sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men (Urantia Book, 938)."

#68 Guest_rich.sachs_*

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Posted 02 May 2011 - 12:26 PM

i don't have anything at the moment to say about contradictions in tub, i'm more interesting in understanding why it says what it says.

2:5.8 The experience of loving is very much a direct response to the experience of being loved.

Much love, Rick



#69 menno

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 10:59 PM

Hi Rick;

Do you see any apparent contradiction with the following:

74:5.2 The farewell of the receivers occupied the whole of a day, and during the evening the individual Melchizedeks gave Adam and Satania left the planet with fourteen beings for Jerusem, the translation of Van and Amadon occurring simultaneously with the departure of the twelve Melchizedeks.

with this statement::
(Note: Paper 45 deals with the list of those who on on the board of "Four and Twenty Counselors" and Enoch is one of those listed.)

45:4.13 Enoch, the first of the mortals of Urantia to fuse with the Thought Adjuster during the mortal life in the flesh.


Question: Just which human was the first to be translated? Amadon or Enoch ?

Edited by menno, 02 March 2012 - 11:00 PM.


#70 Nigel Nunn

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 11:51 PM

Question: Just which human was the first to be translated? Amadon or Enoch ?


Not sure exactly where the fusion of Amadon and his thought adjuster occurred. Nevertheless, does an incarnate experiential span of 200,000 years count as a "mortal life in the flesh", i.e. when compared with "three score years and ten"?

Nigel

#71 menno

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 01:08 AM

Well 200,000 years or "three score years and ten"
the author of Paper 67:8 ( a Melchizedek of Nebadon) referred to Amadon as " The Human Hero of the Rebellion" so based on this statement from this level of authority, I took it to mean that Amadon was a mortal human being.

As for the timing of Amadon's fusion with his thought adjuster; I thought that the following quote nailed down the time for that event.

74:5.1 For almost seven years after Melchizedek receivers remained on duty, but the time finally came when they turned the administration of world affairs over to Adam and returned to Jerusem.
74:5.2 The farewell of the receivers occupied the whole of a day, and during the evening the individual Melchizedeks gave Adam and Satania left the planet with fourteen beings for Jerusem, the translation of Van and Amadon occurring simultaneously with the departure of the twelve Melchizedeks.

#72 Rick Warren

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 05:06 AM

Interesting observation menno,

Nigel appears to be on the right track imo. Amadon had been living off the tree of life and Melchizedek's "specialized life ministry" for 150,000 years, hardly a "mortal life". He could have gone on indefinitely had the situation called for it. Van was a "superhuman" of course.

Note also, that Van and Amadon translated, no Adjuster involved. Enoch fused with his Adjuster. Quite a difference, eh?

#73 Bonita

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 08:54 AM

Van had no Adjuster and therefore did not fuse. He was reunited with his Adjuster after translation, but we are not told when or if he fused.



66:4.8-9 2. The one hundred were material but superhuman beings, having been reconstituted on Urantia as unique men and women of a high and special order.


This group, while enjoying provisional citizenship on Jerusem, were as yet unfused with their Thought Adjusters; and when they volunteered and were accepted for planetary service in liaison with the descending orders of sonship, their Adjusters were detached. But these Jerusemites were superhuman beings—they possessed souls of ascendant growth. During the mortal life in the flesh the soul is of embryonic estate; it is born (resurrected) in the morontia life and experiences growth through the successive morontia worlds. And the souls of the Caligastia one hundred had thus expanded through the progressive experiences of the seven mansion worlds to citizenship status on Jerusem.


67:4.5 When the staff of one hundred came to Urantia, they were temporarily detached from their Thought Adjusters. Immediately upon the arrival of the Melchizedek receivers the loyal personalities (except Van) were returned to Jerusem and were reunited with their waiting Adjusters. We know not the fate of the sixty staff rebels; their Adjusters still tarry on Jerusem. Matters will undoubtedly rest as they now are until the entire Lucifer rebellion is finally adjudicated and the fate of all participants decreed.


67:6.8 Van and Amadon remained on earth until shortly after the arrival of Adam and Eve. Some years thereafter they were translated to Jerusem, where Van was reunited with his waiting Adjuster. Van now serves in behalf of Urantia while awaiting the order to go forward on the long, long trail to Paradise perfection and the unrevealed destiny of the assembling Corps of Mortal Finality.



Others translated before Amadon and Van.



67:6.3 These Amadonites were derived from the group of 144 loyal Andonites to which Amadon belonged, and who have become known by his name. This group comprised thirty-nine men and one hundred and five women. Fifty-six of this number were of immortality status, and all (except Amadon) were translated along with the loyal members of the staff. The remainder of this noble band continued on earth to the end of their mortal days under the leadership of Van and Amadon. They were the biologic leaven which multiplied and continued to furnish leadership for the world down through the long dark ages of the postrebellion era.



We are not told if Amadon had an Adjuster; at least I can't find it if the information is there. But the term translation is not synonymous with the word fusion. One can be translated without being fused; however, one cannot be fused without being translated.



#74 menno

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:03 PM

Bonita

I stand corrected.

I must be misinterpreting Paper 55.2

Edited by menno, 03 March 2012 - 12:22 PM.


#75 Bonita

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 12:33 PM

Translation is synonymous with resurrection, but not fusion even though translation takes place when one fuses during the life in the flesh. From the many quotes throughout TUB, you can see that translation takes place whenever there is progressive movement in the ascension scheme. Translation means moving from life to life, not just fusion to the next life. Both fused and unfused mortals translate. Personalities go through a series of translations before and after fusion. The word is not limited to those who fuse. In other words, you don't have to fuse in order to be resurrected or translated.

32:3.8 Excepting perfect beings of Deity origin, all will creatures in the superuniverses are of evolutionary nature, beginning in lowly estate and climbing ever upward, in reality inward. Even highly spiritual personalities continue to ascend the scale of life by progressive translations from life to life and from sphere to sphere. And in the case of those who entertain the Mystery Monitors, there is indeed no limit to the possible heights of their spiritual ascent and universe attainment.

44:0.18 Each new translation or resurrection will add one more group of spirit beings to your vision range without in the least depriving you of the ability to recognize your friends and fellows of former estates.

47:3.7 Between the time of planetary death or translation and resurrection on the mansion world, mortal man gains absolutely nothing aside from experiencing the fact of survival.

Fusion is actually a modified form of translation.

49:6.21 With the establishment of the planetary era of light and life, many go to the universe morontia worlds by the primary modified order of translation. Further along in the advanced stages of settled existence, when the majority of the mortals leaving a realm are embraced in this class, the planet is regarded as belonging to this series. Natural death becomes decreasingly frequent on these spheres long settled in light and life.

#76 Howard509

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:51 PM

Forum Friends,

Sooner or later every enduring student/teacher must address APPARENT inconsistencies in the text because new students will always come to seasoned readers with their questions. What will you say to these new and sincere readers, as well as debunkers and detractors, when they ask about these seeming contradictions?

Over the years, I have seen several brought out by readers. Only yesterday did Jessica mention one about Nalda's morality. Below are two more cases that appear to contradict, one on worshipping goodness, and one on Jesus declaring God as king.

...One believes truth, admires beauty, and reverences goodness, but does not worship them; such an attitude of saving faith is centered on God alone, who is all of these personified and infinitely more.... P.1114 - §5

...Mortal man must, through the recognition of truth, the appreciation of beauty, and the worship of goodness, evolve the recognition of a God of love and then progress through ascending deity levels to the comprehension of the Supreme.... p641

...We find God through the leadings of spiritual insight, but we approach this insight of the soul through the love of the beautiful, the pursuit of truth, loyalty to duty, and the worship of divine goodness.... P.2076 - §5


***

"...I declare that the kingdom of heaven is the realization and acknowledgment of God's rule within the hearts of men. True, there is a King in this kingdom, and that King is my Father and your Father. We are indeed his loyal subjects, but far transcending that fact is the transforming truth that we are his sons..." p1588

...For these and other reasons, the Master thought best to designate the spiritual brotherhood of man as the kingdom of heaven and the spirit head of this brotherhood as the Father in heaven. Never did Jesus refer to his Father as a king. In his intimate talks with the apostles he always referred to himself as the Son of Man and as their elder brother. He depicted all his followers as servants of mankind and messengers of the gospel of the kingdom.... p1855

...Jesus never called the Father a king, and he very much regretted that the Jewish hope for a restored kingdom and John's proclamation of a coming kingdom made it necessary for him to denominate his proposed spiritual brotherhood the kingdom of heaven. With the one exception—the declaration that " God is spirit "—Jesus never referred to Deity in any manner other than in terms descriptive of his own personal relationship with the First Source and Center of Paradise....
p1856

***

In my opinion it is crucial for reader/believers not to gloss over anything resembling a contradiction or inconsistency. And it is also monumentally important that the revelation not be presented as absolute truth. Not because I say so, but that the authors declare it so:

Truth cannot be defined with words, only by living....P.1459 - §2

Divine truth is a spirit-discerned and living reality. Truth exists only on high spiritual levels of the realization of divinity and the consciousness of communion with God. You can know the truth, and you can live the truth; you can experience the growth of truth in the soul and enjoy the liberty of its enlightenment in the mind, but you cannot imprison truth in formulas, codes, creeds, or intellectual patterns of human conduct. When you undertake the human formulation of divine truth, it speedily dies. The post-mortem salvage of imprisoned truth, even at best, can eventuate only in the realization of a peculiar form of intellectualized glorified wisdom. Static truth is dead truth, and only dead truth can be held as a theory. Living truth is dynamic and can enjoy only an experiential existence in the human mind.P.1949 - §4


It is a mistake to call the Urantia Book a 'truth book'. It is instead a book of celestially indited revealed facts frozen in ink for all time in 1955. Yet it is truly the greatest book ever written and will eventually lead humanity to God, if humanity will be led (and I believe it will). Much depends on how wisely this revelation is handled and propagated by reader/believers like us. Declaring the revelation absolute and perfect truth will not serve it well, and the authors said so on more than one occasion.

If the angels inherently know the number of the hairs on your head, I believe the authors were completely aware of every bit of the content and implication of every word in the book. And they left in apparent inconsistencies and contradictions to confound literalists and book-thumpers who would make a fetish out of a time/space revelation that must needs be imperfect due to conceptual poverty, revelatory constraints and language limitations.

Your comments, questions and contradictions/explanations are most welcome.

Much love, Rick


These are the exact same things that I've been saying about the Urantia Book but it usually doesn't seem to get a positive or constructive response.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin





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