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Apparent Contradictions


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#41 Midsoniter woman

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 04:01 PM

We discussed this at my Tuesday night study group and I came up with a possible solution as being a two week preparation for the actual day of Pentecost. So there could have been Pentecost festivitities and prep going on for a couple weeks, not just one solitary day.
"If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man's rights, then sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men (Urantia Book, 938)."

#42 Bonita

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 09:26 PM

Hi MW,

I've been thinking along those lines myself. It all depends on how you read this quote:

194:1.1The apostles had been in hiding for forty days. This day happened to be the Jewish festival of Pentecost, and thousands of visitors from all parts of the world were in Jerusalem. Many arrived for this feast, but a majority had tarried in the city since the Passover. Now these frightened apostles emerged from their weeks of seclusion to appear boldly in the temple, where they began to preach the new message of a risen Messiah. And all the disciples were likewise conscious of having received some new spiritual endowment of insight and power.


The day happened to be the Jewish festival of Pentecost . . . does that mean the Day of Pentecost, which is usually Sivan 6? Or, does it mean a day in the Jewish festival of Pentecost? The Counting of the Omar went on for 7 weeks with various feast days along the way, like the Seven Sabbaths. So . . . it could be.

#43 menno

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 10:49 AM

Hi MW,

I've been thinking along those lines myself. It all depends on how you read this quote:



The day happened to be the Jewish festival of Pentecost . . . does that mean the Day of Pentecost, which is usually Sivan 6? Or, does it mean a day in the Jewish festival of Pentecost? The Counting of the Omar went on for 7 weeks with various feast days along the way, like the Seven Sabbaths. So . . . it could be.


Hi MW and Bonita;

On page 2062
3. "What Happened At Pentecost" The first sentence reads " Many queer and strange teachings became associated with the early narratives of the day of Pentecost."

And in the KJV Bible Acts Chapter 2 verse 1 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place."
Verse 2 " And suddenly there came a sound from heavenas of a rushing mighty wind and it filled all the house where they were sitting. "

Would you agree that these two passages, one from UB and the other from the Bible; confirm that the Spirit of Truth arrived on the day of Pentecost ?

#44 Bonita

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 11:14 AM

Would you agree that these two passages, one from UB and the other from the Bible; confirm that the Spirit of Truth arrived on the day of Pentecost ?


No. Both quotes are referring to the Christian day of Pentecost, not necessarily the Jewish Feast of Pentecost.

#45 menno

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Posted 12 September 2009 - 03:40 PM

No. Both quotes are referring to the Christian day of Pentecost, not necessarily the Jewish Feast of Pentecost.


Just suppossing that you were right; and it was in refernce to the Christian day of Pentecost; you are still left with the issue of the 50 days versus the 40 days mentioned in the UB. Because the Christian day of Pentecost occurs 50 days after Easter Sunday (the day of ascension)

All of the websites, that I have checked with, all state that the day; that the (Holy Spirit) The Spirit of Truth came down on the apostles and the others, was on the Jewish Day of Pentecost.

It was after that event that the early Christians began to incorporate that name as one of their holiest days; The Birth of The Christian Church.

Edited by menno, 12 September 2009 - 04:00 PM.


#46 Bonita

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 12:33 AM

Menno,

I understand what you are saying, and you may be right. However, I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. TUB is somewhat nebulous on the topic. They are saying that the Spirit of Truth came 40 days after the resurrection. Jesus resurrected on the first day of the Jewish Feast of Pentecost, the Feast of the First Fruits. The Jewish Feast of Pentecost lasted 50 days with 8 different feast days within that 50 day period and people who made the pilgrimage to Jerusalem for Passover often stayed the whole 7 weeks to celebrate because it was considered to be one long feast. Events celebrating the wheat crop occurred throughout the entire time because it was also the time when guests and non-jews were welcomed into the fold, the proselytes of the gate. The last day of the festival is called Shavuot when wheat offerings were made at the Temple. Actually, the word Pentecost was used only by the Greek Jews.

Jesus sent his Spirit of Truth during this Pentecost festival. TUB does not state with clarity whether or not this occurred on the last day of the feast or not; but, one has to surmise that if it occurred 40 days after the Feast of the First Fruits, it was not on the final day of the festival.

The Christian Day of Pentecost was established long afterwards and there was much controversy over when it should be held. For four centuries, the pre-Constantine Christians celebrated the ascension during the Jewish Festival of Pentecost. According to Tertullian, the entire time between Passover and the final day of Pentecost was one long 50 day celebration of the resurrection, ascension and coming of the Spirit of Truth.

The controversy over when to celebrate Easter and Pentecost occurred because the Jewish holiday is not fixed, it floats. The Church wanted Jesus' resurrection to always be on a Sunday. Plus, the Jewish Christians were conflicted because they were still celebrating the Passover and the death and resurrection of Jesus at the same time. So, the Church established Easter then counted 50 days after that and called it Pentecost. Easter is celebrated the first Sunday following the full moon that occurs on or following the spring equinox (March 21). The Eastern Church and the Western Church calculate their calendars differently so Easter falls on different days in the East and in the West. The ascension is celebrated 40 days after Easter. The Church believes that the Spirit of Truth came 10 days after the ascension, whereas TUB says it came on the same day. And that's where you get the 50 days in the Christian calendar.

#47 John Anngeister

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 02:17 PM

Bonita, thanks for making this more clear for me - a really good response to a very interesting question from Menno.

I still have issues with Paper 194, as a result of the author's constant reference to "the day of Pentecost," but I think it suffices to say that the name "Pentecost," probably through the influence of Greek believers, became early joined in the Christian mind with the day of bestowal of Christ's Spirit, notwithstanding the curious loss of connection with the day of his ascension. That is, it became virtually a "Christian Day of Pentecost," irregardless of the Jewish Festival, until perhaps a later hand rejoined the two days in an effort of compromise. No telling.

After all, the only record of the event, composed 40 years later by Luke, in his Acts of the Apostles, does not unequivocally confirm the Midwayer's report that the choosing of a new apostle took place on the day of ascension (Luke uses only the expression, "in those days"). So the Midwayers are having to clear up a couple things as best they could.

#48 Bonita

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 02:28 PM

Thanks John. There is more written by historians on the subject. I just felt that this forum was not the place to relate all of that information.

Here's a great book that covers the topic rather well: In the Shadow of the Temple, by Oskar Skarsaune.

In the Shadow of the Temple

#49 Rick Warren

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 03:48 PM

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Forum Friends,

If you think this is too easy or just plain silly, I'll delete this post.


Let's say a new reader walks up and asks: "What do you think about this apparent contradiction? I read in the introduction of Paper 38:

...The seraphim are all fairly uniform in design. From universe to universe,
throughout all seven of the superuniverses, they show a minimum of variation;
they are the most nearly standard of all spirit types of personal beings. P.418


and then in the intro of Paper 39, there this:

...As far as we are cognizant, the Infinite Spirit, as personalized on the local
universe headquarters, intends to produce uniformly perfect seraphim, but for
some unknown reason these seraphic offspring are very diverse. P.426


Isn't this a contradiction?"




Reply by private email if you like, Rick




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#50 Midsoniter woman

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Posted 27 April 2010 - 07:12 PM

That's an interesting observation, Rick. I can only guess what it means. I always read it to mean that there is uniformity in design only. Everything other than their design is diverse. That's true of human beings too. Our design is also uniform. We're all bipeds, two arms, two eyes, etc. Yet our personalities are diverse. But don't ask me. I still want to know if Nalda was immoral or so-called immoral.

Edited by Midsoniter woman, 27 April 2010 - 07:13 PM.

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#51 Bonita

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Posted 28 April 2010 - 06:33 AM

I'll go with Jessica's take on this. Seraphim are all of uniform design with a variety of functions. But it sounds as though variety of functions was not part of our Creative Spirit's plan, at least according to the quote. That kinda surprises me, because it sounds like a good plan.

I'm wondering what the "unknown interposition of evolving experiential Deity" is. Do you think they mean the Supreme? Does it also mean that other local universes don't have Supreme, Superior, Supervisor, Administrator Seraphim, or Planetary Helpers, Transition Ministers or Seraphim of the Future? Maybe our local universe just happens to have special need for these entities for some reason . . . never really thought about it before . . . it's kinda like the rainbow effect from a prism. We got the seven colors of the seraphim rainbow, like celestial light after an evolutionary storm.


39.0.1 THE SERAPHIC HOSTS AS FAR as we are cognizant, the Infinite Spirit, as personalized on the local universe headquarters, intends to produce uniformly perfect seraphim, but for some unknown reason these seraphic offspring are very diverse. This diversity may be a result of the unknown interposition of evolving experiential Deity; if so, we cannot prove it. But we do observe that, when seraphim have been subjected to educational tests and training discipline, they unfailingly and distinctly classify into the following seven groups: 1. Supreme Seraphim. 2. Superior Seraphim. 3. Supervisor Seraphim. 4. Administrator Seraphim. 5. Planetary Helpers. 6. Transition Ministers. 7. Seraphim of the Future.



#52 Rick Warren

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 03:45 AM

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Hint: In this case, context is everything.



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#53 Brother Dave

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Posted 29 April 2010 - 06:22 PM



Hi Rick and all,

there is no contradiction. Read Paper 39 Intro page 426 D paragraph: "Human beings ... seraphic services."

All seraphim are initially designed with an uniform "divine and inherent endowment"; and then out in space-time they acquire supreme and differential experiences over time and in different places. After serving in all seven levels, they are again more similar in experience out here, are they not ?

(one of my favorites) Page 1137C (we must try to grasp) "...the elliptic symmetry of reality and with the essential curvature of all relation concepts."

Peace and progress in Spirit and in Father-Son Truth !

Brother Dave,

a Jesusonian Christian


Peace and progress in Spirit and in Father-Son Truth !

Brother Dave

#54 Rick Warren

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 06:10 AM

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You are right about one thing Dave,

There is no contradiction.

Here's one more hint, read the intros to Paper 38 and 39 side by side. If no one solves it by tomorrow, the solution will be posted.

Thanks for your replies, don't give up. :) Rick

PS. This apparent contradiction came from a newer reader on another UB chatlist, who asked it in all sincerity.


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#55 Bonita

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 08:15 AM

Not sure what kind of game you're playing here Rick. The angels are all perfectly uniform but not uniformly perfect. They are service oriented and have different classes of function because they are evolutionary creatures who require experience. I don't see any contradiction or even a reason to question that in the first place. So what's the deal? Am I going to smack my head and say "duh"?

#56 Rick Warren

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 11:02 AM

Not sure what kind of game you're playing here Rick. The angels are all perfectly uniform but not uniformly perfect. They are service oriented and have different classes of function because they are evolutionary creatures who require experience. I don't see any contradiction or even a reason to question that in the first place. So what's the deal? Am I going to smack my head and say "duh"?



Maybe Bonita,

But it was a serious question from a serious reader. You're sticking with your answer--ok. Tomorrow, my answer. Anyone else have an opinion?

Much love, Rick


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#57 Bonita

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 12:14 PM

Why do you want to wait until tomorrow? What's so special about tomorrow other than being May Day?

Maybe it's a cop out, but I don't think it's possible to answer this question unless you're capable of seeing a contradiction in the first place. For the life of me, I don't see one. The first quote says uniform with minimum variations and the personalized local Infinite Spirit produced some with minimum variations. What's the big deal?

#58 Rick Warren

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Posted 30 April 2010 - 05:22 PM

Why do you want to wait until tomorrow? What's so special about tomorrow other than being May Day?

Maybe it's a cop out, but I don't think it's possible to answer this question unless you're capable of seeing a contradiction in the first place. For the life of me, I don't see one. The first quote says uniform with minimum variations and the personalized local Infinite Spirit produced some with minimum variations. What's the big deal?



The problem is that this reader saw a contradiction and asked his fellows why it wasn't. The same question was posed to the Forum. So no, not a big deal. Tune in tomorrow, or not... :) :D



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#59 Bonita

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 06:54 AM

Come on, let's go . . . I was up all night in anticipation. It's May Day now! So what's the answer?

#60 Midsoniter woman

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Posted 01 May 2010 - 12:41 PM

WAIT! I get it now. The UB author was just being polite when he used the word diverse. That was just a diplomatic way of saying that the seraphim are not perfect. The Mother Spirit is capable of producing perfect angels, but instead they are "diverse." So when I make another fashion mistake you can just say, "Oh My...Jessica, you're looking very diverse this evening I must say."
"If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man's rights, then sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men (Urantia Book, 938)."




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