Jump to content


Photo

Apparent Contradictions


  • Please log in to reply
75 replies to this topic

#21 menno

menno

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 201 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vancouver BC
  • Interests:Lifetime pursuit: Searching for truth. Found the Urantia Book to be an excellent source. I feel fortunate to have an original 1955 copy of "Big Blue" given to me by a friend in the book selling Business. Hobbies: traveling through the mountains in my Yukon XL

Posted 19 August 2009 - 04:55 PM

Hi All members and visitors;

Further to my comment/posting on July 31, 2009 regarding the dates noted at the end of Part I , II , and III and my question as to why there was no date at the end of Part IV.
After reading the last sentence on page 866 of the UB ; "...even as the storey of the life and teachings of Jesus has been given by the midwayers of Urantia to their cousins in the flesh."

It would appear that Part IV had been completed before Part III was completed... note that there were still 453 pages of information from page 866 to page 1319 being downloaded before Part IV was to "tag on" I say tag on because of the storey that the Celestial Beings were not all in agreement as to whether or not there should be a Part IV included.

Personally I am glad that it was included because Part IV along with Part III are my favorite parts of the UB. They fit together quite well.

#22 Bill Martin

Bill Martin

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 941 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rio Dulce, Izabal, Guatemala
  • Interests:destiny interception, kindred spirits, Sailing my ketch, cooking, reading ( a book a day, if possible), helping fellow sojurners on the path of righteousness.I am most interested in building strong relationships with fellow kingdom builders knowing that we will be serving together, off and on, through time and into eternity.

Posted 20 August 2009 - 12:14 AM

Dear Menno,

Your idea of the Urantia United Midwayers contribution to the Fifth Epochal Revelation possibly being finished before the contributions made by the Uversa Revelator Corps resonates with my own thinking. What appears to me to have happened was that the crew of extraplanetary Revelators were authorized to indict the first three sections as an assignment recieved from the Uversa Ancients of Days on the Superuniverse capitol before departure for Urantia.

Undoubtedly our Midwayers were eager to participate in telling their part of the "Greatest Story Ever Told."Indeed, they do eventually state the Truth (on 2090-4) that "One of the most important things in human living is to find out what Jesus believed, to discover his ideals, and to strive for the achievement of his exalted life purpose. Of all human knowledge, that which is of greatest value is to know the religious life of Jesus and how he lived it. After all, doesn't it seem that the most important ingredient in a revelation of Truth to this troubled planet would be the inclusion of the life of our Creator Son? something the Midwayers were intimately familiar with and had the opportunity to reflect upon and distill over the course of two millennia? And isn't it likely that the three Ancients of Days, whose collective wisdom reflects that of the Paradise Trinity (217-4), would foresee Michael's revelation of God to man and man to God would be the focus of the whole effort?

It is entirely possible, I would say probable, that as soon as ABC the First and 123 the First learned of the upcoming book revelation that they were already prepared with much, much more than a mere outline of what was to become Part IV. Nevertheless, it appears from a critical reading that the last few passages in Part III seem to resemble a summation.


What happened was familiar to students of Urantia history as set forth in other parts of the book.

PART IV - THE LIFE AND TEACHINGS OF JESUS - P.1321
This group of papers was sponsored by a commission of twelve Urantia midwayers acting under the supervision of a Melchizedek revelatory director. The basis of this narrative was supplied by a secondary midwayer who was onetime assigned to the superhuman watchcare of the Apostle Andrew.


The Melchizedeks "stepped up" just as they did when nurturing the dying "light of life" in preparation for the announced choice of Urantia as the site of the terminal bestowal of Michael in the likeness of the seven orders of his created universe children. A commission of twelve midwayers under the direction of Mantutia Melchizedek undertook the difficult task of translating Jesus' sayings and acts in the language of the twentieth century.

I have heard (by way of anecdote) that there was great discussion, back and forth, between the Angels of the Churches and the Angels of Progress as to how certain episodes of Jesus' life and some of the statements he made would or could be translated into modern phraseology. This may have been part of the source of some of the apparent contentions that are implied.

123 the First (I believe) states the Midwayer Commission's approach to solving this "tricky" situation to the satisfaction of the Superaphic wisdom of the Paradise Supernaphim of the Primary Order who head up these two aforementioned angelic groups.

P.1343 - §1 [Acknowledgment: In carrying out my commission to restate the teachings and retell the doings of Jesus of Nazareth, I have drawn freely upon all sources of record and planetary information. My ruling motive has been to prepare a record which will not only be enlightening to the generation of men now living, but which may also be helpful to all future generations. From the vast store of information made available to me, I have chosen that which is best suited to the accomplishment of this purpose. As far as possible I have derived my information from purely human sources. Only when such sources failed, have I resorted to those records which are superhuman. When ideas and concepts of Jesus' life and teachings have been acceptably expressed by a human mind, I invariably gave preference to such apparently human thought patterns. Although I have sought to adjust the verbal expression the better to conform to our concept of the real meaning and the true import of the Master's life and teachings, as far as possible, I have adhered to the actual human concept and thought pattern in all my narratives. I well know that those concepts which have had origin in the human mind will prove more acceptable and helpful to all other human minds. When unable to find the necessary concepts in the human records or in human expressions, I have next resorted to the memory resources of my own order of earth creatures, the midwayers. And when that secondary source of information proved inadequate, I have unhesitatingly resorted to the superplanetary sources of information.

P.1343 - §2 The memoranda which I have collected, and from which I have prepared this narrative of the life and teachings of Jesus--aside from the memory of the record of the Apostle Andrew--embrace thought gems and superior concepts of Jesus' teachings assembled from more than two thousand human beings who have lived on earth from the days of Jesus down to the time of the inditing of these revelations, more correctly restatements. The revelatory permission has been utilized only when the human record and human concepts failed to supply an adequate thought pattern. My revelatory commission forbade me to resort to extrahuman sources of either information or expression until such a time as I could testify that I had failed in my efforts to find the required conceptual expression in purely human sources.
P.1343 - §3 While I, with the collaboration of my eleven associate fellow midwayers and under the supervision of the Melchizedek of record, have portrayed this narrative in accordance with my concept of its effective arrangement and in response to my choice of immediate expression, nevertheless, the majority of the ideas and even some of the effective expressions which I have thus utilized had their origin in the minds of the men of many races who have lived on earth during the intervening generations, right on down to those who are still alive at the time of this undertaking. In many ways I have served more as a collector and editor than as an original narrator. I have unhesitatingly appropriated those ideas and concepts, preferably human, which would enable me to create the most effective portraiture of Jesus' life, and which would qualify me to restate his matchless teachings in the most strikingly helpful and universally uplifting phraseology. In behalf of the Brotherhood of the United Midwayers of Urantia, I most gratefully acknowledge our indebtedness to all sources of record and concept which have been hereinafter utilized in the further elaboration of our restatement of Jesus' life on earth.]
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#23 menno

menno

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 201 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vancouver BC
  • Interests:Lifetime pursuit: Searching for truth. Found the Urantia Book to be an excellent source. I feel fortunate to have an original 1955 copy of "Big Blue" given to me by a friend in the book selling Business. Hobbies: traveling through the mountains in my Yukon XL

Posted 20 August 2009 - 12:04 PM

Dear Bill;


Thank You. I really appreciate your remarks and quotes on this matter.

You mention that 123 the First as being involved with the Commission of Twelve Midwayers involved with Part IV narrative of the Life of Jesus

Question:. Do you believe that 123 the First was involved with this Commission , thereby being temporarily absent from his seat on the board of Four and Twenty Counselors ?

And regarding your comment before the the last three quotes; " 123 the First (I believe) states the Midwayer Commission's approach...."

I always took it that those three paragraphs were spoken by the secondary midwayer assigned to Andrew..as per the first line in the second paragraph.

I welcome your help if I have been misreading or misunderstanding this.

Before I end this post there is something else which I would like to ask...not a big thing but while we are here dsicussing the midwayers; Have you ever wondered why it was the Secondary Midwayer assigned to Andrew, who provided the "basis" for the narrative of the Life of Jesus; instead of one of the two midwayers assigned to Jesus ( a secondary midwayer and a primary midwayer)

Thanks
Menno

#24 Bill Martin

Bill Martin

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 941 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rio Dulce, Izabal, Guatemala
  • Interests:destiny interception, kindred spirits, Sailing my ketch, cooking, reading ( a book a day, if possible), helping fellow sojurners on the path of righteousness.I am most interested in building strong relationships with fellow kingdom builders knowing that we will be serving together, off and on, through time and into eternity.

Posted 20 August 2009 - 05:15 PM

Dear Menno,

Thank you for your attention to the details. I will answer your post by interlacing my answers into your post for ease of comprehension. (my answers in red)
(Urantia Book quotes in blue)




Dear Bill;


Thank You. I really appreciate your remarks and quotes on this matter.

You mention that 123 the First as being involved with the Commission of Twelve Midwayers involved with Part IV narrative of the Life of Jesus

After re-reading my post, i am unable to find any such attribution



Question:. Do you believe that 123 the First was involved with this Commission , thereby being temporarily absent from his seat on the board of Four and Twenty Counselors ?

P.866 - §4 1-2-3 the first, the eldest of the primary order, was released from immediate planetary duties shortly after Pentecost

My attribution was in error here and i stand corrected. Thank You![/color]



And regarding your comment before the the last three quotes; " 123 the First (I believe) states the Midwayer Commission's approach...."

I always took it that those three paragraphs were spoken by the secondary midwayer assigned to Andrew..as per the first line in the second paragraph.

If you read the text of the author who gave this acknowledgemet (on 1343-1) closely, you will perceive that this author refers to the same secondary midwayer (assisgned to the watchcare of the Apostle Andrew):

P.1343 - §2 The memoranda which I have collected, and from which I have prepared this narrative of the life and teachings of Jesus--aside from the memory of the record of the Apostle Andrew--


I welcome your help if I have been misreading or misunderstanding this.



Menno, I have included a quote from a recent post you made on this thread at the bottom of this page. I am truly thankful you corrected my error so quickly for we don't want to let anything less than the whole, "unvarnished" truth to pass here. My aim was to answer your questions about how the Fourth Part is obviously an addition and though certainly a triumphant finale to the symphonic composition of the previous three "movements," there is evidence of a difference. I was trying to examine the possible factors affecting the origin and genesis of Part IV.

The contention between the angelic corps and the skillfull manner in which the author of the "Acknowledgement" soothed the contention seems to be a more fertile ground for discussion than my making a factual error. Nevertheless,please ALWAYS correct me when i stray from the truth (or fact).


Before I end this post there is something else which I would like to ask...not a big thing but while we are here dsicussing the midwayers; Have you ever wondered why it was the Secondary Midwayer assigned to Andrew, who provided the "basis" for the narrative of the Life of Jesus; instead of one of the two midwayers assigned to Jesus ( a secondary midwayer and a primary midwayer)

No, I really haven't, maybe he/she had a better memory or clearer vision. There is differential attainment among all evolutionary will creatures.

Bill

Thanks
Menno


































You'll notice that I don't use the quotations feature. The reason being that I believe that getting too wrapped up in the details can take away ones focus from the essence of Truth, Beauty and Goodness. It is like studying Law and Rule of Law..like our present system is doing and yet completely missing the point of finding Justice . So it is with delving really deep into the exact wording of the UB material. Sometimes it is wise to step back and have an overview as to just what the core essence is that is being conveyed to us humans.

Anyways back to the subject of apparent contradictions; yes, the UB has it's full share of them. The skeptics have found their share of them. Does that destroy the validityof the essence of the UB material ? No. It just shows that one should not get 100% wrapped up with the details.


Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#25 menno

menno

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 201 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vancouver BC
  • Interests:Lifetime pursuit: Searching for truth. Found the Urantia Book to be an excellent source. I feel fortunate to have an original 1955 copy of "Big Blue" given to me by a friend in the book selling Business. Hobbies: traveling through the mountains in my Yukon XL

Posted 20 August 2009 - 10:39 PM

Dear Menno,

Thank you for your attention to the details. I will answer your post by interlacing my answers into your post for ease of comprehension. (my answers in red)
(Urantia Book quotes in blue)




Dear Bill;


Thank You. I really appreciate your remarks and quotes on this matter.

You mention that 123 the First as being involved with the Commission of Twelve Midwayers involved with Part IV narrative of the Life of Jesus

After re-reading my post, i am unable to find any such attribution



Question:. Do you believe that 123 the First was involved with this Commission , thereby being temporarily absent from his seat on the board of Four and Twenty Counselors ?

P.866 - §4 1-2-3 the first, the eldest of the primary order, was released from immediate planetary duties shortly after Pentecost

My attribution was in error here and i stand corrected. Thank You![/color]



And regarding your comment before the the last three quotes; " 123 the First (I believe) states the Midwayer Commission's approach...."

I always took it that those three paragraphs were spoken by the secondary midwayer assigned to Andrew..as per the first line in the second paragraph.

If you read the text of the author who gave this acknowledgemet (on 1343-1) closely, you will perceive that this author refers to the same secondary midwayer (assisgned to the watchcare of the Apostle Andrew):

P.1343 - §2 The memoranda which I have collected, and from which I have prepared this narrative of the life and teachings of Jesus--aside from the memory of the record of the Apostle Andrew--


I welcome your help if I have been misreading or misunderstanding this.



Menno, I have included a quote from a recent post you made on this thread at the bottom of this page. I am truly thankful you corrected my error so quickly for we don't want to let anything less than the whole, "unvarnished" truth to pass here. My aim was to answer your questions about how the Fourth Part is obviously an addition and though certainly a triumphant finale to the symphonic composition of the previous three "movements," there is evidence of a difference. I was trying to examine the possible factors affecting the origin and genesis of Part IV.

The contention between the angelic corps and the skillfull manner in which the author of the "Acknowledgement" soothed the contention seems to be a more fertile ground for discussion than my making a factual error. Nevertheless,please ALWAYS correct me when i stray from the truth (or fact).


Before I end this post there is something else which I would like to ask...not a big thing but while we are here dsicussing the midwayers; Have you ever wondered why it was the Secondary Midwayer assigned to Andrew, who provided the "basis" for the narrative of the Life of Jesus; instead of one of the two midwayers assigned to Jesus ( a secondary midwayer and a primary midwayer)

No, I really haven't, maybe he/she had a better memory or clearer vision. There is differential attainment among all evolutionary will creatures.

Bill

Thanks
Menno



Dear Bill;

Thank you for all of your help.
Sorry for bothering you once more but before I leave this thread concerning "Apparent Contradictions" I was wondering if you could give me your take on the following mystery;

On page 1257 5th para (About the reserve Corps of Destiny) It states " This combined corps now consists of 962 persons."
and then on page 1258 (still on the subject of Reserve Corps of Destiny) 5th para in brackets it states ( This cosmic reserve corps of universe - conscious citizens on Urantia now numbers over one thousand mortals...........)

The Paper containg the above information was presented by the Chief of Seraphim stationed on Urantia.

What is your take regarding these two different numbers given for the same group....within a span of 5 paragraphs ?

Was the information on page 1257 valid in 1935 and did the bracketed information arrive just before the papers were type set in 1941 ? Or what is your take on this.

Thanks
Menno

#26 Bill Martin

Bill Martin

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 941 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rio Dulce, Izabal, Guatemala
  • Interests:destiny interception, kindred spirits, Sailing my ketch, cooking, reading ( a book a day, if possible), helping fellow sojurners on the path of righteousness.I am most interested in building strong relationships with fellow kingdom builders knowing that we will be serving together, off and on, through time and into eternity.

Posted 20 August 2009 - 10:56 PM

Dear Menno,


I would presume the author is referring to two separate corps.


Bill


P.S. I am in Michigan at the farm and left my book in Chicago. i think i might have an answer/cross-reference for you after Michael's birthday celebration.
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#27 Nigel Nunn

Nigel Nunn

    Poster

  • Administrators
  • PipPip
  • 1,118 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 21 August 2009 - 12:07 AM

What is your take regarding these two different numbers given for the same group...
within a span of 5 paragraphs ?

Was the information on page 1257 valid in 1935 and did the bracketed information
arrive just before the papers were type set in 1941? Or what is your take on this.

Well spotted, menno! I never noticed those parentheses around the second figure.
My guess would be that in between preparing and presenting Paper 114 section 7,
the various seraphic corps were busy recruiting sufficient natives.

We all know how hard it can be to get good help <_<
Nigel

#28 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 22 August 2009 - 10:46 AM

That is an interesting observation.

For the sake of completeness, and for those who don't have a photographic memory, here are the two paragraphs being referred to:

114:7.5 The twelve groups of Urantia destiny reservists are composed of mortal inhabitants of the sphere who have been rehearsed for numerous crucial positions on earth and are held in readiness to act in possible planetary emergencies. This combined corps now consists of 962 persons. The smallest corps numbers 41 and the largest 172. With the exception of less than a score of contact personalities, the members of this unique group are wholly unconscious of their preparation for possible function in certain planetary crises. These mortal reservists are chosen by the corps to which they are respectively attached and are likewise trained and rehearsed in the deep mind by the combined technique of Thought Adjuster and seraphic guardian ministry. Many times numerous other celestial personalities participate in this unconscious training, and in all this special preparation the midwayers perform valuable and indispensable services.

114:7.10 (The cosmic reserve corps of universe-conscious citizens on Urantia now numbers over one thousand mortals whose insight of cosmic citizenship far transcends the sphere of their terrestrial abode, but I am forbidden to reveal the real nature of the function of this unique group of living human beings.)


One thing stood out to me is that the first is referring to destiny reservists and the second to cosmic reservists. Are they the same? The latter is universe-conscious, the former unconscious.

It may be that I'm fabricating the significance of the subtle difference in wording, or maybe not.

#29 John Anngeister

John Anngeister

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 109 posts

Posted 22 August 2009 - 10:33 PM

Bonita, I think there is substance to your distinction (and Bill's) between the two corps. And thanks, because I didn't notice that until you suggested it as a possibility.

I might add that, if a living apprehension of these Papers might constitute "insight of cosmic citizenship" far transcending the sphere of terrestrial abode, there might be room in the corps for several readers - and that would explain why the author is forbidden to reveal the real nature and function of this unique group. It would be classic over-revelation and might invite a lot of swagger or premature "function" by wannabees.

I am a little uncomfortable with the use of brackets, however. Why not do without? How many other places in the UB do we find parenthetical statements? Anybody know?

#30 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 22 August 2009 - 11:59 PM

Hi John,

There are scads and scads of single words and short phrases in parenthesis, but very few whole sentences.

Here are a few examples:

163.4.8 7. Teach that man’s whole duty is summed up in this one commandment: Love the Lord your God with all your mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. (This they were to teach as man’s whole duty in place of the 613 rules of living expounded by the Pharisees.)

135.6.7 John was a heroic but tactless preacher. One day when he was preaching and baptizing on the west bank of the Jordan, a group of Pharisees and a number of Sadducees came forward and presented themselves for baptism. Before leading them down into the water, John, addressing them as a group said: “Who warned you to flee, as vipers before the fire, from the wrath to come? I will baptize you, but I warn you to bring forth fruit worthy of sincere repentance if you would receive the remission of your sins. Tell me not that Abraham is your father. I declare that God is able of these twelve stones here before you to raise up worthy children for Abraham. And even now is the ax laid to the very roots of the trees. Every tree that brings not forth good fruit is destined to be cut down and cast into the fire.” (The twelve stones to which he referred were the reputed memorial stones set up by Joshua to commemorate the crossing of the “twelve tribes” at this very point when they first entered the promised land.)



On the question of the cosmic reserve corp of universe-conscious citizens, I'm wondering if this has something to do with circle attainment. There are many people who have completed their circles and are awaiting further attunement before fusion. These folks would definitely be universe-conscious.

110.6.16 A seventh or sixth circler can be almost as truly God-knowing — sonship conscious — as a second or first circler, but such lower circle beings are far less conscious of experiential relation to the Supreme Being, universe citizenship. The attainment of these cosmic circles will become a part of the ascenders’ experience on the mansion worlds if they fail of such achievement before natural death.

110:7.1 The achievement of the seven cosmic circles does not equal Adjuster fusion. There are many mortals living on Urantia who have attained their circles; but fusion depends on yet other greater and more sublime spiritual achievements, upon the attainment of a final and complete attunement of the mortal will with the will of God as it is resident in the Thought Adjuster.



#31 Nigel Nunn

Nigel Nunn

    Poster

  • Administrators
  • PipPip
  • 1,118 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 23 August 2009 - 12:19 AM

There are scads and scads of single words and short phrases in parenthesis, but very few whole sentences.

My old version of Folio Views reports 438 comments in parentheses, 37 of which could be classified as "sentences".
Nigel

#32 John Anngeister

John Anngeister

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 109 posts

Posted 23 August 2009 - 01:32 PM

Thanks again, Bonita, and NIgel.

Bonita, I like your characterization of the cosmic reserve corps by actual circle attainment much better than I like my allusion to them as mere readers with a "living apprehension" of the Urantia Papers.

110.6.16 A seventh or sixth circler can be almost as truly God-knowing — sonship conscious — as a second or first circler, but such lower circle beings are far less conscious of experiential relation to the Supreme Being, universe citizenship.


Very succinct, in my opinion.

#33 menno

menno

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 201 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vancouver BC
  • Interests:Lifetime pursuit: Searching for truth. Found the Urantia Book to be an excellent source. I feel fortunate to have an original 1955 copy of "Big Blue" given to me by a friend in the book selling Business. Hobbies: traveling through the mountains in my Yukon XL

Posted 23 August 2009 - 03:08 PM

Hi Bonita, John, Nigel and Bill;

Considering what Bonita used as two examples of where a sentence in parenthesis had been used.. i.e. Paper 163.4.8.7 and paper 135.6.7 ; in both of these two example the sentence in parenthesis makes reference to or explains a little better, that which was just presented ahead of it.

Therefore I believe that the paragraph in parenhthesis on page 1258 is referring to the subject at hand...namely The Reserve Corps of Destiny.

If this is so, it still leaves one to wonder who is conveying the information, throughout the UB where ever and when ever these parenthesis show up.
Was it the author of the paper, where it is used; or is it a superior Celestial Being overseeing that Part or overseeing the whole project.

Menno

#34 Bill Martin

Bill Martin

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 941 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rio Dulce, Izabal, Guatemala
  • Interests:destiny interception, kindred spirits, Sailing my ketch, cooking, reading ( a book a day, if possible), helping fellow sojurners on the path of righteousness.I am most interested in building strong relationships with fellow kingdom builders knowing that we will be serving together, off and on, through time and into eternity.

Posted 03 September 2009 - 11:59 AM

I submitted this question to my study group, the regular weekly study meeting on the second floor of the Urantia Foundation building, where the original Forum met, and the members all felt that the two references refer to two separate corps.
"The cosmic reserve corps of universe-conscious citizens on Urantia now numbers over one thousand mortals whose insight of cosmic citizenship far transcends the sphere of their terrestrial abode"

I believe that this corps membership is vastly larger now than when the Chief of Urantia Seraphim wrote these words. The Revelators " endeavors to expand cosmic consciousness and enhance spiritual perception" (1-2) has surely placed this estimation beyond my powers of evaluation. I rest assured though that "The progression of religious growth leads from stagnation through conflict to co-ordination, from insecurity to undoubting faith, from confusion of cosmic
consciousness to unification of personality, from the temporal objective to the eternal, from the bondage of fear to the liberty of divine sonship."P.1098 - §5


More and more enlightened Urantians are lightening their burdens of soul by speedily acquiring a long-distance view of their destiny, a universe expansion of their career. Our job is clear.The only technique for accelerating the natural trend of social evolution is that of applying spiritual pressure from above, thus augmenting moral insight while enhancing the soul capacity of every mortal to understand and love every other mortal. Mutual understanding and fraternal love are transcendent civilizers and mighty factors in the world-wide realization of the brotherhood of man. (598-2)


If these statements reflect your efforts, then you are probably in this corps.
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#35 menno

menno

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 201 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vancouver BC
  • Interests:Lifetime pursuit: Searching for truth. Found the Urantia Book to be an excellent source. I feel fortunate to have an original 1955 copy of "Big Blue" given to me by a friend in the book selling Business. Hobbies: traveling through the mountains in my Yukon XL

Posted 03 September 2009 - 11:18 PM

I submitted this question to my study group, the regular weekly study meeting on the second floor of the Urantia Foundation building, where the original Forum met, and the members all felt that the two references refer to two separate corps.
"The cosmic reserve corps of universe-conscious citizens on Urantia now numbers over one thousand mortals whose insight of cosmic citizenship far transcends the sphere of their terrestrial abode"

I believe that this corps membership is vastly larger now than when the Chief of Urantia Seraphim wrote these words. The Revelators " endeavors to expand cosmic consciousness and enhance spiritual perception" (1-2) has surely placed this estimation beyond my powers of evaluation. I rest assured though that "The progression of religious growth leads from stagnation through conflict to co-ordination, from insecurity to undoubting faith, from confusion of cosmic
consciousness to unification of personality, from the temporal objective to the eternal, from the bondage of fear to the liberty of divine sonship."P.1098 - §5


More and more enlightened Urantians are lightening their burdens of soul by speedily acquiring a long-distance view of their destiny, a universe expansion of their career. Our job is clear.The only technique for accelerating the natural trend of social evolution is that of applying spiritual pressure from above, thus augmenting moral insight while enhancing the soul capacity of every mortal to understand and love every other mortal. Mutual understanding and fraternal love are transcendent civilizers and mighty factors in the world-wide realization of the brotherhood of man. (598-2)


If these statements reflect your efforts, then you are probably in this corps.



Thanks Bill; I appreciate your well researched response to the question.
When all is said and done we may all have to wait until we can one day meet the celestial author of that paper to know what was really meant by those remarks in brackets.

I have another question for You , your fellow study group members at 533, or anyone else viewing these posts:

Page 1257 Reserve Corps of Destiny first two sentences say : "The reserve corps of destiny consists of living men and women who have been admitted to the special service of the superhuman administration of world affairs. This corps is made up of the men and women of each generation who are chosen by the spirit directors of the realm to assist in the conduct of the ministry of mercy and wisdom to the children of time on the evolutionary worlds."
Note: the words "...to the children of time on the evolutionary worlds."

Then in Para 4 last line it says " On Urantia there are twelve reserve corps of destiny, one for each of the planetary groups of seraphic supervision"

Question: In your opinion, in what way or fashion can mortal will creatures help with the 12th planetary group of seraphic supervision...as noted on page 1256 ? as this group refers to " .....seraphim who are assigned to the ministry of all other superhuman life on the planet.."

#36 Bill Martin

Bill Martin

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 941 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Rio Dulce, Izabal, Guatemala
  • Interests:destiny interception, kindred spirits, Sailing my ketch, cooking, reading ( a book a day, if possible), helping fellow sojurners on the path of righteousness.I am most interested in building strong relationships with fellow kingdom builders knowing that we will be serving together, off and on, through time and into eternity.

Posted 04 September 2009 - 09:12 AM

Dear Menno,

You certainly do not lack high ambition! Jesus said," I declare that there is more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety and nine righteous persons who need no repentance. Surely we give joy by our wholehearted "second-miler" performance without desire for personal recognition. The words ,to the children of time on the evolutionary worlds probably are the limiting definition in the parameters of your question.


Realistically, I don't think we have any way of knowing the answer to such a question. it might be that humans are assigned as members to this corps honorifically or technically, as in:From time to time, in accordance with the corps organization, titular (mortal) heads of the whole reserve corps have been commissioned by these permanent councils for specific function. The tenure of such reservist chiefs is usually a matter of a few hours' duration, being limited to the accomplishment of some specific task at hand. (1258-3)

And then there is the question of whether or not you would even know you were in a reserve corp.Such Adjusters participate in numerous activities of the realm, but more frequently they function as undetected indwellers of the earthly tabernacles of their own choosing.(1196-10)

AND

P.1213 - §5 During the making and breaking of a contact between the mortal mind of a destiny reservist and the planetary supervisors, sometimes the indwelling Adjuster is so situated that it becomes possible to transmit a message to the mortal partner. Not long since, on Urantia, such a message was transmitted by a self-acting Adjuster to the human associate, a member of the reserve corps of destiny. This message was introduced by these words: "And now, without injury or jeopardy to the subject of my solicitous devotion and without intent to overchastise or discourage, for me, make record of this my plea to him." Then followed a beautifully touching and appealing admonition. Among other things, the Adjuster pleaded "that he more faithfully give me his sincere co-operation, more cheerfully endure the tasks of my emplacement, more faithfully carry out the program of my arrangement, more patiently go through the trials of my selection, more persistently and cheerfully tread the path of my choosing, more humbly receive credit that may accrue as a result of my ceaseless endeavors--thus transmit my admonition to the man of my indwelling.
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#37 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 04 September 2009 - 09:21 AM

Question: In your opinion, in what way or fashion can mortal will creatures help with the 12th planetary group of seraphic supervision...as noted on page 1256 ? as this group refers to " .....seraphim who are assigned to the ministry of all other superhuman life on the planet.."


Entertainment

#38 menno

menno

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 201 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vancouver BC
  • Interests:Lifetime pursuit: Searching for truth. Found the Urantia Book to be an excellent source. I feel fortunate to have an original 1955 copy of "Big Blue" given to me by a friend in the book selling Business. Hobbies: traveling through the mountains in my Yukon XL

Posted 10 September 2009 - 01:39 PM

As this Topic deals with " Apparent Contradictions ; How Will Student/Teachers Deal With Questions ? "

I have another mystery for anyone interested in offerring up an answer.

Paper 172 gives the reader an idea of what the date of the Jewish Passover in AD 30 was i.e. Sat April 8th

Paper 193.5.1 - 193.5.5 states that it was May 18th when Jesus disappears from the "observation of the apostles" "....about seven forty five this morning"

Paper 194.1.1 confirms that it was 40 days since Jesus' trial and crucification and resurection. The Math is right; Apr 8th to May 18th is 40 days

Paper 194.1.1 second sentence says " This day happened to be the Jewish festival of Pentecost...."

From Paper 193.5.1 ( "almost half past seven o'clock this Thursday morning, May 18th....")
to Paper 194.1.2 ( "It was about two o'clock when Peter stood up....') May 18th has been literally dissected hour by hour.

Why did the midwayer commission place so much emphasis on the time of day and date ?

From Apr 8th to May 18th is 40 days


What is my point ? The Jewish Pentecost is 7 weeks from the day of Passover.
The word Pentecost comes form the Greek meaning 50.
Look on the current calenders and you'll find that the Christian day of Pentecost comes 50 days after Easter Sunday

In AD 30 the Jewish Pentecost would have occurred on May 27th

In my opinion, in the final analysis it means that the real truth is contained within the essence of the UB.. in the Spirit of information.....rather than that outlined in the finite details.

#39 Meredith Van Woert

Meredith Van Woert

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 2,270 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:California

Posted 10 September 2009 - 03:49 PM

What is my point ? The Jewish Pentecost is 7 weeks from the day of Passover.
The word Pentecost comes form the Greek meaning 50.
Look on the current calenders and you'll find that the Christian day of Pentecost comes 50 days after Easter Sunday

In AD 30 the Jewish Pentecost would have occurred on May 27th

In my opinion, in the final analysis it means that the real truth is contained within the essence of the UB.. in the Spirit of information.....rather than that outlined in the finite details.


Hi menno,

It would be helpful if one were conversant in the details of the history and traditions of the Jewish people, regarding the calendar and/or the lunar cycles to account for the passage of time from one Jewish holiday to the next in those Roman times, as compared to modern times and the use of the calendar in the 20th Century. I am helpless to offer any information on your question.

As to your other point, to whit ". . . in the final analysis it means that the real truth is contained within the essence of the UB. . . ," the real truth is in the eyes of the beholder, don't you think? Jesus used to say something to the effect - let those who have ears hear . . . - when he was teaching with the use of parables. I do think the when the revelators specify dates and times of day they do this for a reason. My guess is they use dates and times translatable to 20th Century usage.

I'm sure other forumites will give you a better answer than mine.

Cheers,
Meredith

#40 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 11 September 2009 - 07:28 AM

As this Topic deals with " Apparent Contradictions ; How Will Student/Teachers Deal With Questions ? "

I have another mystery for anyone interested in offerring up an answer.

Paper 172 gives the reader an idea of what the date of the Jewish Passover in AD 30 was i.e. Sat April 8th

Paper 193.5.1 - 193.5.5 states that it was May 18th when Jesus disappears from the "observation of the apostles" "....about seven forty five this morning"

Paper 194.1.1 confirms that it was 40 days since Jesus' trial and crucification and resurection. The Math is right; Apr 8th to May 18th is 40 days

Paper 194.1.1 second sentence says " This day happened to be the Jewish festival of Pentecost...."

From Paper 193.5.1 ( "almost half past seven o'clock this Thursday morning, May 18th....")
to Paper 194.1.2 ( "It was about two o'clock when Peter stood up....') May 18th has been literally dissected hour by hour.

Why did the midwayer commission place so much emphasis on the time of day and date ?

From Apr 8th to May 18th is 40 days


What is my point ? The Jewish Pentecost is 7 weeks from the day of Passover.
The word Pentecost comes form the Greek meaning 50.
Look on the current calenders and you'll find that the Christian day of Pentecost comes 50 days after Easter Sunday

In AD 30 the Jewish Pentecost would have occurred on May 27th

In my opinion, in the final analysis it means that the real truth is contained within the essence of the UB.. in the Spirit of information.....rather than that outlined in the finite details.

Hi Menno,

You bring up an excellent point. The Church teaches that Pentecost came ten days after the ascension, but TUB teaches that they occurred on the same day, which leaves one to wonder what happened to those 10 extra days.

I did some research but came up with nothing definitive. Apparently, during the second Temple period the date for the celebration of Shavuot was not a settled fact. The Sadducees and Pharisees differed in their interpretation of Leviticus 23:15-17 and it is unclear which method of was used in 30AD, but historians say that the Pharisees dominated thus allowing Shavuot to occur on any day of the week rather than on the Sabbath. May 18th was a Thursday, I believe. An interesting site to read on the topic is: http://www.abcog.org/shavuot.htm

A few other things of note. One source I read stated that Shavuot, in the first Century, was always celebrated in the middle of the third month, Sivan, Nisan being the first month and Pesach always being celebrated in the middle of the first month. Both festivals were apparently timed to the equinoxes. The Jewish months are not the same as the Gregorian months. The Jews in 30D followed several different calendars, solar, lunar and a combination. Our current Gregorian calendar was instituted in 1582 by Pope Gregory XIII in order to correct the Julian calendar which had resulted in a discrepancy of 10 days. The Pope decreed 10 days be dropped from the calendar changing Oct. 4, 1582 instantly to Oct. 15, 1582.

None of this seems to have much bearing on the situation at hand, however. 50 days is 50 days. It was only 40 days from the resurrection to the ascension and TUB says Pentecost came on the 40th day. I could understand this if TUB had said a day IN Pentecost, because the festival lasted more than one day. But TUB says it was day of Pentecost. However, later it says that "Pentecost was the great festival of baptism, the time for fellowshipping the proselytes of the gate," (p2060) which makes me think that these baptisms could have taken place prior to the actual day of Pentecost. The proselytes, by law, needed to be baptized and purified prior to being allowed to take part in the actual festival. Did this happen ten days before? I don't know; none of it makes much sense.

No matter how you look at it, the resurrection happened the day after Pesach. The day after the first Sabbath in Pesach is the Day of the First Fruits, which marks the beginning of the Counting of the Omar for 50 days. In 30 AD, Pesach fell on the Sabbath, so Sunday, April 9th was not only the day of the resurrection, but it was also the Day of the First Fruits. (Jesus was called "the Firstfruits of those that rise from the dead". I Corinthians 15:20) The 50 days, or 7 weeks, would have been counted from April 9th, putting it on May 28th.

Too bad we can't have "do-overs" with the revelators. I would definitely like an answer to your question menno.

P.S. Another interesting little factoid. The Jews believed that Pentecost was the day that Moses received the Torah and God visited the Israelites with thunder and wind making his covenant with them. The people were able to hear the voice of God on this day. Many believed that this covenant was renewed on Pentecost with God visiting and speaking to his chosen people on that feast day. Jesus' spirit came on Pentecost with great power making a new covenant with all people, filling them with his spirit according to their ability to receive. There were plenty of people who believed they heard the voice of God on that day.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users