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Mapping Orvonton


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#21 Allen

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Posted 19 November 2009 - 02:16 PM

Hi John and those interested,

I did the sketch by looking at the candidates for SUís, and to map those in that crude sketch according to the description given on page 165. Then I looked at what astronomy presented in regard arrangement and orientation of the local group and other groups to see what that might indicate. I prefer the NGS map circa 1983 because it is far less cluttered than are the atlas of the universe maps. Of course my sketch is all just guess work.

I think we can say that local stars are controlled by the presence of dark matter and this plays an important roll in the way a galaxy appears and rotates, affecting all the stars in it.

My comments from page 655 on the great nebula Andronover: The UB mentions at the end of the tertiary stage 50 billion years ago, 876,926 sun systems had come into existence. Some of these stars began at about 500 billion years before so I think it is safe to assume that at 50 billion years ago most of them already were cool. Another 136,702 stars came into the picture during the quartan stage at about 6 to 8 billion years ago, making a total of 1,013,628. If we assume that most of the tertiary stage stars have used up their fuel, then the ratio of bright stars to cool stars is about 15 percent. That is amazingly close to what astronomy is finding on the issue of dark matter.

I think there should be no problem with the idea of local star streams. There should be slow streams of nearby stars when comparing those stars closest to the MW center and those opposite us in the other direction. I think it is the way physics works with rotating bodies but is much less noticeable with dark matter present. Is it possible this is why galaxies that are in rotation exhibit distinct arms?

Page 168

ďThe rotational center of your minor sector is situated far away in the enormous and dense star cloud of Sagittarius, around which your local universe and its associated creations all move, and from opposite sides of the vast Sagittarius subgalactic system you may observe two great streams of star clouds emerging in stupendous stellar coils.

The nucleus of the physical system to which your sun and its associated planets belong is the center of the onetime Andronover nebula. This former spiral nebula was slightly distorted by the gravity disruptions associated with the events which were attendant upon the birth of your solar system, and which were occasioned by the near approach of a large neighboring nebula. This near collision changed Andronover into a somewhat globular aggregation but did not wholly destroy the two-way procession of the suns and their associated physical groups. Your solar system now occupies a fairly central position in one of the arms of this distorted spiral, situated about halfway from the center out towards the edge of the star stream.Ē


It appears to me that Andronover has been a part of the MW all along. There has been published by astronomers recently the notion that the local system of stars of what could be described as a galaxy merged with the MW. I do not buy it.

Allen

PS: It seems interests have diverged somewhat, but that should only generate more interest on these issues.

#22 John Anngeister

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Posted 22 November 2009 - 11:20 AM

... And I do think Carmelloís suggestion (post #10) has some merit: that most of the visible Milky Way might be simply the bulk of our own major sector.
Iím just trying to get the ducks in a row here...

I was reviewing this whole interesting thread again this morning.

I finally broke through the introductory fluff in Joer's link to John Causland's slide show (past slide #30 or thereabouts) to find that he is suggesting that the entire Milky Way is only one of 1000 minor sectors of Orvonton! That Orvonton itself is comprised not only of our Local Group but of the galaxies of the great Virgo cluster as well!

This concept places the matter on a scale so vast that it staggers me a little, but I don't mind the discomfort. Since I was trying to gather all the "ducks" in a row, I don't want to leave out Causland's intriguing view.

#23 Nigel Nunn

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Posted 03 October 2011 - 10:33 AM

I finally broke through the introductory fluff in Joer's link to John Causland's slide show (past slide #30 or thereabouts) to find that he is suggesting that the entire Milky Way is only one of 1000 minor sectors of Orvonton! That Orvonton itself is comprised not only of our Local Group but of the galaxies of the great Virgo cluster as well!


John's slide show, and the related paper by Sergey Ch, both appear to skip past [(167.18) 15:3.2]:

"From the astronomical position of Urantia, as you look through the cross section of near-by systems to the great Milky Way, you observe that the spheres of Orvonton are traveling in a vast elongated plane, the breadth being far greater than the thickness and the length far greater than the breadth." (167.18) 15:3.2


This paragraph was raised recently by a UB-reading friend. Friend asks: "How do we see or measure its breadth? We see its length and thickness, but how do we see its breadth? We can’t see both breadth and thickness--or can we?

I understand (15:3.2) to say that we can see a thickness (about 1,000 light years) and a breadth (about 100,000 light years), and that (with "improved telescopic technique") we will eventually be able to estimate a "length" involving a distance of about 250,000 light years (along the long axis) to Uversa. A more interesting associated feature will be the vast rotating disk of superfluid ultimata out of which the visible (post-electronic) parts of Orvonton are forming. This should solve neatly those long-standing riddles about "too much mass". Ultimata serves as an ultimate dark (pre-electronic, i.e. pre-photonic) matter :P

Regarding astronomic evidence, recent articles on the Sagittarius Dwarf Elliptical Galaxy (see SagDEG ) remind us how much scope remains for astronomic surprises. Current astronomical techniques still struggle to discern SagDEG. This neighbouring "galaxy" was not even noticed until 1994, and only then because it lies 18 degrees off the plane of the Milky Way. If it were co-planar, we would even now be unable directly to detect it. Which raises the question: how many more such astronomical surprises lurk beyond the Sagittarius rotational center? But if neighboring co-planar spirals have a relative thickness of a DVD turned edge on, will it ever be possible to discern their photons? Hmm, perhaps only as an excess of x-rays along the galactic ridge... which is something we have already measured!

PS: in an interesting twist, the "Milky Way" has been recently measured to have the gravitational heft of "upwards of two trillion solar masses". Given that classical and quantum standard models (speed of light, no Higgs) are looking shaky, maybe we will soon watch (UB and main-stream) assumptions -- about the (tiny, central) kernel of the (absonite?) master universe -- evaporate?

interesting times!
Nigel

#24 UBtheNEWS

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:59 AM

Of course, when it comes to making determinations about the intended meaning of authors, reading responsibly requires respecting the sequential manner in which authors present information. So naturally, this comprehensive analysis will proceed sequentially.

The authors use “Milky Way” for the first three times in Paper 15: The Seven Superuniverses, Section 3: The Superuniverse of Orvonton, which begins:

"Practically all of the starry realms visible to the naked eye on Urantia belong to the seventh section of the grand universe, the superuniverse of Orvonton. The vast Milky Way starry system represents the central nucleus of Orvonton, being largely beyond the borders of your local universe. This great aggregation of suns, dark islands of space, double stars, globular clusters, star clouds, spiral and other nebulae, together with myriads of individual planets, forms a watchlike, elongated-circular grouping of about one seventh of the inhabited evolutionary universes.

"From the astronomical position of Urantia, as you look through the cross section of near-by systems to the great Milky Way, you observe that the spheres of Orvonton are traveling in a vast elongated plane, the breadth being far greater than the thickness and the length far greater than the breadth.

"Observation of the so-called Milky Way discloses the comparative increase in Orvonton stellar density when the heavens are viewed in one direction, while on either side the density diminishes; the number of stars and other spheres decreases away from the chief plane of our material superuniverse. When the angle of observation is propitious, gazing through the main body of this realm of maximum density, you are looking toward the residential universe and the center of all things."

The first paragraph starts by referencing what can be seen with “the naked eye.” Next, the authors use the word “represents” to indicate that “Milky Way” and their coined term “Orvonton” are roughly synonymous. The last sentence of the first paragraph, beginning with "This great aggregation" unambiguously refers to the superuniverse of Orvonton. Everything about the first paragraph indicates that we are supposed to compare, not contrast, Milky Way to Orvonton. Similarly, in the one sentence of the second paragraph, “as you look” and “observe” suggests that we are to compare, not contrast, the two.

Note that “Milky Way” is used without a qualifier the first two times, but by its third use, the authors add “so-called,” indicating that they may intend to demote the status of the term beyond identifying it as a term in “common usage.” “So-called” can also mean that a word is being used falsely or incorrectly. The term “Milky Way” reflects an observable phenomenon—the more centralized section of an astronomical region where the population of suns in noticeably more dense. In contrast, the term “Orvonton” is defined with more precision than a “naked eye” inspection. This distinction supports the argument that “so-called” is used to indicate that Milky Way falsely or incorrectly focuses on what is observable to the naked eye, when often much of what is actually being referred to with the term “Milky Way” is not visible. This issue is further highlighted by the manner in which the authors include the word “galaxy” after “Milky Way” in the next two instances. These occurrences show up in the very next section.

The nature of the transition from third to the fourth section reveals the broader context. Section 3: The Superuniverse of Orvonton develops a more macro level understanding of the coined term “Orvonton,” as one would expect given the name of that section. But in the first paragraph, the authors foreshadow what will be covered in the upcoming sections by listing some of the major components of a superuniverse. “This great aggregation of suns, dark islands of space, double stars, globular clusters, star clouds, spiral and other nebulae, together with myriads of individual planets, forms a watchlike, elongated-circular grouping of about one seventh of the inhabited evolutionary universes.”

Section 4: Nebulae—The Ancestors of Universes, not surprisingly, identifies one of these components from the list—nebulae—as being of special interest. But interestingly, the “nebulae” does not appear for the first time until the fourth paragraph of this section, which identifies the order of beings that actually initiate the creation of nebulae. In the fifth paragraph we learn that these universe forming nebulae “vary greatly in size” and that the larger ones are in the outer space regions (beyond the seven superuniverses). The sixth paragraph informs us that these nebulae “are not directly related to any of the administrative units, such as minor sectors or local universes, although some local universes have been organized from the products of a single nebula.”

This next quote with the fourth and fifth occurrences of “Milky Way” concludes this section:

"There are not many sun-forming nebulae active in Orvonton at the present time, though Andromeda, which is outside the inhabited superuniverse, is very active. This far-distant nebula is visible to the naked eye, and when you view it, pause to consider that the light you behold left those distant suns almost one million years ago.

"The Milky Way galaxy is composed of vast numbers of former spiral and other nebulae, and many still retain their original configuration. But as the result of internal catastrophes and external attraction, many have suffered such distortion and rearrangement as to cause these enormous aggregations to appear as gigantic luminous masses of blazing suns, like the Magellanic Cloud. The globular type of star clusters predominates near the outer margins of Orvonton.

"The vast star clouds of Orvonton should be regarded as individual aggregations of matter comparable to the separate nebulae observable in the space regions external to the Milky Way galaxy. Many of the so-called star clouds of space, however, consist of gaseous material only. The energy potential of these stellar gas clouds is unbelievably enormous, and some of it is taken up by near-by suns and redispatched in space as solar emanations."

The addition of “galaxy” indicates that the authors are no longer only referring to what is visible with the naked eye. The fact that “Milky Way” can be used with the word “galaxy” to help distinguish the visible phenomenon from the actual astronomical region demonstrates one of the inherent problems with this term.

The sixth occurrence of “Milky Way” appears seventeen Papers later in Paper 32: Evolution of the Local Universes.

"The Satania system of inhabited worlds [1000 planets] is far removed from Uversa [the capital of Orvonton] and that great sun cluster which functions as the physical or astronomic center of the seventh superuniverse. From Jerusem, the headquarters of Satania, it is over two hundred thousand light-years to the physical center of the superuniverse of Orvonton, far, far away in the dense diameter of the Milky Way. Satania is on the periphery of the local universe, and Nebadon is now well out towards the edge of Orvonton. From the outermost system of inhabited worlds to the center of the superuniverse is a trifle less than two hundred and fifty thousand light-years."

Coming in as part of a supporting clause, this use of “Milky Way” necessarily and unambiguously refers to the preceding noun—“the superuniverse of Orvonton.”

The last use of “Milky Way” comes in Paper 42: Energy—Mind and Matter, Section 5: Wave-Energy Manifestations. The first sentence of this section begins by referencing Orvonton in relationship to the topic being addressed. “In the superuniverse of Orvonton there are one hundred octaves of wave energy.” The opening paragraphs lead the reader into the description of a classification scheme. “Wavelike energy manifestations — from the standpoint of twentieth-century Urantia scientific enlightenment — may be classified into the following ten groups: . . .” The third classification contains the final “Milky Way” reference:

"3. The short space rays. These are the shortest of all purely electronic vibrations and represent the preatomic stage of this form of matter. These rays require extraordinarily high or low temperatures for their production. There are two sorts of these space rays: one attendant upon the birth of atoms and the other indicative of atomic disruption. They emanate in the largest quantities from the densest plane of the superuniverse, the Milky Way, which is also the densest plane of the outer universes."

Here again “Milky Way” appears unambiguously in a descriptive clause that refers to Orvonton, the seventh superuniverse.

Regarding the use of the word "galaxy" and "galactic":


The word galaxy is used ten times in The Urantia Book.

The first time it is used comes in the paragraph after the three paragraphs introducing the term Milky Way. It's used in connection with describing Orvonton's ten major sectors: "major sectors of the seventh galaxy." The next two instances are when it is used immediately after "Milky Way." The last seven instances all are in the context of personalities, gods, and saints. Obviously, these references have nothing to do with astronomy.

Similarly, "galatic"--used only four times--appears once in reference to Orvonton: "galactic system of Orvonton." And then it is used three more times in the context of personalities.

This leaves the impression that aside from using it to establish that the Milky Way (galaxy) is in relationship to Orvonton, the authors do not care for the use of the word "galaxy" or it's derivatives at all within the context of astronomy.

Hopefully, this comprehensive analysis of how “Milky Way,” and "galaxy" are used within the four corners of the text will be the beginning of the end of the confusion that has persisted around this topic for over three decades.

Edited by UBtheNEWS, 22 November 2012 - 11:57 AM.


#25 Nigel Nunn

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 08:51 AM

Hi UBtheNEWS,

Hopefully, this comprehensive analysis of how "Milky Way", and "galaxy" are used within the four corners of the text will be the beginning of the end of the confusion that has persisted around this topic for over three decades.


Thanks for this timely clarification. Regarding the mapping of Orvonton, some news is the APOGEE survey currently underway. This is our first systematic attempt to apply "improved telescopic technique" [(459.4) 41:3.10] to at least some parts of the Milky Way.

In anticipation of interesting discoveries, I'm including a fresh view of what the revelators actually reveal about the Milky Way in part 4 of my set of UB intro videos. Some snippets got early release last month at our annual conference in Australia. Here's part of the script from that presentation:

Attached File  MW_2012.pdf   678.97KB   22 downloads

Nigel

#26 UBtheNEWS

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 11:02 AM

Nigel,

Thanks for making those excellent images representing Orvonton and being such a careful reader of the text! You explain a lot of important points that are misrepresented by the "artistic" representations. Much appreciated!

Halbert




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