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#21 joer

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 02:28 AM

Not sure what the POINT is that you guys are trying to make about loving "enemies" when they (idealogues) don't have a clue about loving "lovable" people (like your parents).


Hi NUF. I'm really glad that you are here. Disagreement seems to serve a purpose of highlighting the issues at hand. And in it's expression we are able see issues highlighted and contrasted. Perhaps making it easier for us to understand the issue at hand.

I'm not sure what "POINT" others were trying to make to you. But I can explain myself and my intention to you without expectation that you respond in one way or another. However you respond gives me a little more insight into YOU. The real YOU. The personality God gave you and how it has developed on this corrupted world that has been nurtured out of extreme sickness to a little better spiritual health by our God in the many manifestations celestial and otherwise in which Our God is expressed.

But that's not the POINT I was trying to make. That's just a personal expression of my Love and interest in your "BEING". A "being" that I know as my sister as a daughter of Our Father and Mother GOD.

The POINT I was trying to share with you is this. You seem to express that it is useless to love those who are incapable of loving others. Correct me if I'm wrong, because that is ONLY my perspective of this way you expressed yourself: not sure what the POINT is that you guys are trying to make about loving "enemies" when they (idealogues) don't have a clue about loving "lovable" people (like your parents)

It reminded me of HOW HARD IT WAS FOR ME "to get" that lesson Jesus gave us when he said "Love thine enemies". Of course he didn't sat it in English, but the way it has come done to us over the 2000 years since he said it, is like that. I imagine my conflict with the idea is something like you expressed. How could I love someone who....

Hold everything NUF. Scratch the love your enemy part of my last two posts. I think I just understood a part of what you were saying. You said: "Doesn't it make more sense to you and others to start out by "loving" someone "lovable"? Someone besides themselves, that is..."

So your weren't talking about loving your enemies at ALL! Right? You were talking about us who are the (idealogues), right? starting out by loving those who love us like our parents. Right?

That's what the "baby steps" was about. Ok Ok Ok :P Let me start over then. see the reaction and response comes from within me and in almost an instant I know my perspective has changed, but I don't know how to express it in words yet. So I have to take some seconds to reflect to try to express that instantaneous change when I saw with a new understanding what you were referring to. IMHO again.

You're right. It would be logical to practice loving those who love us FIRST. Then move on up to loving our enemies afterwards, maybe with people who just bothered us in between. BUT it seems to me that the dynamic of Loving and not -loving is something that is within that is applied to ALL. so we respond to our parents and friends and those we like or don't like and dreaded enemies with something that comes from within us on the LOVE- Don't Love continuum. Our dreaded enemies are all the way on the Don't Love or even HATE side of the continuum. While those we love and cherish be it parent, significant other, best friend whatever are resonant with something at the other end of the Love-Don't Love continuum within us. So we express that resonance with "I love You" or "I don't Love You" or "I Hate you".

Then after years of trying to understand Jesus' lesson "love your enemies" in a moment of clarity something clicks like it did just now for me about what you REALLY meant. And in a instant the WHOLE SCALE OF THE LOVE-DON"T LOVE continuum changes. So if the old scale use to be 0-10 where 0 was no love and 10 was all Love. In an instant the scale is 7 to 10. Where 7 is love and 10 is love more profoundly. The Hate or Don't Love part of the scale is COMPLETELY GONE. Now you SEE even your enemies are your brothers and sisters and along with you are daughters and sons of God.

OK NUF. I know I was a little long winded. But did I at least get the part right where you weren't even talking about loving your enemies your were talking about loving those who love you first. Once you've accomplished that, move up to the next "baby step". Right? Did I get it at least that little part of what your were saying?

I Love You NUF! :P Like you're my sister in God. :P
The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will.

#22 PHIL

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 09:34 AM

Hi Joer;

[disclaimer; AA is a separate entity and in no way is related to affiliated with the Urantia Book Movement]

Something my sponsor in AA advised me[sorry nuf] on.

He suggested that I treat my family with the same love,empathy,compassion,mercy and forgiveness

that I had been giving other Alcoholics wrestling with recovery.

He said sometimes we turn the other cheek so to speak and show more love for others.strangers,enemies et

than our own Family. Sometimes we hold higher expectations from the ones closest and when they are not met we withhold
our love.

Some may fear vulnerability when trying to give unconditional love to some one close but that is not the love we are talking about

the love born from faith is un assailable.

Fear has no place in love. Human love has expectations,Jealousy,conditions,fragility et.

As to reaching to unconditional,faith based even divine love

Like they say in AA one day at a time and spiritual progress not perfection in this life.

May the Spiritual concepts and belief and conviction in the FER 'BRAINWASH' ME INTO A LOYAL FAITHSON :P


PS;

My AFFILIATION WITH AA is what brought me to the discover the FER and just for that one reason I am eternally grateful.




Hi NUF. I'm really glad that you are here. Disagreement seems to serve a purpose of highlighting the issues at hand. And in it's expression we are able see issues highlighted and contrasted. Perhaps making it easier for us to understand the issue at hand.

I'm not sure what "POINT" others were trying to make to you. But I can explain myself and my intention to you without expectation that you respond in one way or another. However you respond gives me a little more insight into YOU. The real YOU. The personality God gave you and how it has developed on this corrupted world that has been nurtured out of extreme sickness to a little better spiritual health by our God in the many manifestations celestial and otherwise in which Our God is expressed.

But that's not the POINT I was trying to make. That's just a personal expression of my Love and interest in your "BEING". A "being" that I know as my sister as a daughter of Our Father and Mother GOD.

The POINT I was trying to share with you is this. You seem to express that it is useless to love those who are incapable of loving others. Correct me if I'm wrong, because that is ONLY my perspective of this way you expressed yourself: not sure what the POINT is that you guys are trying to make about loving "enemies" when they (idealogues) don't have a clue about loving "lovable" people (like your parents)

It reminded me of HOW HARD IT WAS FOR ME "to get" that lesson Jesus gave us when he said "Love thine enemies". Of course he didn't sat it in English, but the way it has come done to us over the 2000 years since he said it, is like that. I imagine my conflict with the idea is something like you expressed. How could I love someone who....

Hold everything NUF. Scratch the love your enemy part of my last two posts. I think I just understood a part of what you were saying. You said: "Doesn't it make more sense to you and others to start out by "loving" someone "lovable"? Someone besides themselves, that is..."

So your weren't talking about loving your enemies at ALL! Right? You were talking about us who are the (idealogues), right? starting out by loving those who love us like our parents. Right?

That's what the "baby steps" was about. Ok Ok Ok :P Let me start over then. see the reaction and response comes from within me and in almost an instant I know my perspective has changed, but I don't know how to express it in words yet. So I have to take some seconds to reflect to try to express that instantaneous change when I saw with a new understanding what you were referring to. IMHO again.

You're right. It would be logical to practice loving those who love us FIRST. Then move on up to loving our enemies afterwards, maybe with people who just bothered us in between. BUT it seems to me that the dynamic of Loving and not -loving is something that is within that is applied to ALL. so we respond to our parents and friends and those we like or don't like and dreaded enemies with something that comes from within us on the LOVE- Don't Love continuum. Our dreaded enemies are all the way on the Don't Love or even HATE side of the continuum. While those we love and cherish be it parent, significant other, best friend whatever are resonant with something at the other end of the Love-Don't Love continuum within us. So we express that resonance with "I love You" or "I don't Love You" or "I Hate you".

Then after years of trying to understand Jesus' lesson "love your enemies" in a moment of clarity something clicks like it did just now for me about what you REALLY meant. And in a instant the WHOLE SCALE OF THE LOVE-DON"T LOVE continuum changes. So if the old scale use to be 0-10 where 0 was no love and 10 was all Love. In an instant the scale is 7 to 10. Where 7 is love and 10 is love more profoundly. The Hate or Don't Love part of the scale is COMPLETELY GONE. Now you SEE even your enemies are your brothers and sisters and along with you are daughters and sons of God.

OK NUF. I know I was a little long winded. But did I at least get the part right where you weren't even talking about loving your enemies your were talking about loving those who love you first. Once you've accomplished that, move up to the next "baby step". Right? Did I get it at least that little part of what your were saying?

I Love You NUF! :P Like you're my sister in God. :P


Edited by Nigel Nunn, 09 January 2009 - 09:53 AM.


#23 nameless until fused

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 11:17 AM

The POINT I was trying to share with you is this. You seem to express that it is useless to love those who are incapable of loving others. [/b]

You're right. It would be logical to practice loving those who love us FIRST. Then move on up to loving our enemies afterwards, maybe with people who just bothered us in between.

Then after years of trying to understand Jesus' lesson "love your enemies" in a moment of clarity something clicks like it did just now for me about what you REALLY meant. And in a instant the WHOLE SCALE OF THE LOVE-DON"T LOVE continuum changes. So if the old scale use to be 0-10 where 0 was no love and 10 was all Love. In an instant the scale is 7 to 10. Where 7 is love and 10 is love more profoundly. The Hate or Don't Love part of the scale is COMPLETELY GONE. Now you SEE even your enemies are your brothers and sisters and along with you are daughters and sons of God.



That's the "theory" I'm experimenting with (I'm not completely a slothful agondonter - I can doubt :P )

the IDEA that you can you fill up so much on "love" (aka truth beauty and goodness) that the other alternative - error, evil, sin, iniquity - does not have a place to "live" in time and space....

While there REALLY are people who are incapable of "loving" others, it makes no sense to ADJUST ourselves to their existence here in limited time-space. (Although I will be visiting the spy shop store to get a counter-spy gadget - the "new" economy brings "new" needs).

Interesting conversation with the telephone provider last night when I called to alert to the "service" issues I have. It's true - "we" have no rights under The Patriot Act.....the customer service rep noted he wants The Patriot Act to be tossed into the bin marked "temporary insanity"....

However, I'll be TRUSTING in the 80% who have been silenced on mass media channels of propaganda and on the internet....it's ASTONISHING how we are all thinking along the same "channels"!

My experiences in real life have proven to me that someone loves them and that they love someone - so you mess with 80% of the "family", do it at your own risk :P

Did you know that they still chop off the head of the "politician" who commits iniquity (deliberate selfishness) in China? (Actually, not a bad method for making sure REAL "leaders" get into "politics", huh?) Contrast what Occidental "religionists" are pontificating about when THEY choose whose head to chop off...yup, lot to learn from each other....you want to be completely selfish - don't do it with the fruits of OTHER people's labour....

#24 PHIL

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Posted 09 January 2009 - 02:49 PM

Hi Nuf;

First is wasn't me doing any deleting :P

you wrote;

OFFICIALLY, in writing as an AA method, "counselors" aren't telling alcoholics that the voices in their head are God or a Thought Adjuster talking to them." Now THAT would be harmful.

reply;

You are correct they don't and even encourage not listening to any voices in the head especially in early recovery.

The UB also does not encourage us to believe the VOICES IN OUR HEAD are our TA or God hmm another similarity.

The physical part of recovery is detox and admitting a problem with alcohol and thus to stop drinking

The rest is a Spiritual cure.

So the first thing in Recovery I had to learn

Is to stop being a Jerk and the characteristics associated

Like Narcissism,high level of Affectation,self-centerdness,self pity et

All the jerk symptoms are not exclusive to Alcoholics and available to all on this planet

and the cure is the same Spiritual.

In fact my wife's boss came to a meeting and I asked why she was there because she did not drink or use drugs

she said it was to learn how to stop being a B word[her words not mine]

Basically as with the UB AA teaches friendship with God and once that is done God takes over and seems to be quite competent to bring the miracle to the 11th and 12th step and beyond.

AA doesn't cure or keep the disease in check God's Grace does

# Step 11 - Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood God, praying only for knowledge of God's will for us and the power to carry that out

# Step 12 - Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to other addicts, and to practice these principles in all our affairs

In other words realize FOG/BOM AS THE MESSAGE TO CARRY

TRANSFER SELFISHNESS TO SERVICE

KEEP CONSCIOUS CONTACT WITH GOD.

Now Nuf are you hearing ACTUAL voices in your head? :P

If a fellow AAer or UBer tells me this I ask[as my AA sponsor and the FER suggest]

what is it they[voices say and what is your plan on learning this information

once spoken out loud and receiving feedback from others eventually the voices and noise go away

and God can be 'heard' inside and outside.

I will make this my last virtues of Drunks AND Druggies post[for now] since you seem uncomfortable

with it all and stick with the FER references.

Hopefully you do understand you don't have the power to insult me [nor me you]

I have the power to let you and take it that way so far you have not insulted me or AA

AND THAT IS A LESSON IN THE FER.


phil
















Stop deleting my posts - whoever is doing it.


Edited by PHIL, 09 January 2009 - 03:39 PM.


#25 nameless until fused

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 02:52 PM

OFFICIALLY, in writing as an AA method, "counselors" aren't telling alcoholics that the voices in their head are God or a Thought Adjuster talking to them." Now THAT would be harmful.

reply;

You are correct they don't and even encourage not listening to any voices in the head especially in early recovery.

The UB also does not encourage us to believe the VOICES IN OUR HEAD are our TA or God hmm another similarity.



I only have one friend from high school daze :P who felt that she needed to join AA....her young 20 something daughter and I had a personal conversation about the daugther's concerns (daughter came to ME, I did NOT come thumping the UB at her) with some overly intrusive aspects of the AA program (what I called "brain washing") AND the kind of people the mother was exposing her weaknesses to at the meetings....

That high school friend of mine has a history with being the victim of iniquity and because of SELFISH concerns on the part of her family - she was twice "victimized". No one, and I mean no one, made a single decision that would be of benefit to the victim and to the victim alone. It's an awful story...deserves a classical "fiction" treatment like the novel "Anna Karenina" by Tostoy or "Quo Vadis" by Sienkiewicz because my friend is a combo of both - daughter of upper class, but brave beyond her artificial and coddled upbringing....and I know many more women like that....all "peeps" I love and would do anything for...."sharing" all the details of her story on this website would be to trivilize it, imo.

AA is NOT ever going to be able to address the TRUTH of just how bad what happened to her, and how ALL her adult caretakers failed her, WAS. "Was" is the key. 20-25 years of her life were RETARDED. She is an AMAZING soul, and the talents she was given to LIVE kept getting her through it all. But - whammo - the "economy" has knocked her down NOW just as the fruits of her labour were budding....FACTS....not very pretty. She still does not realize the injustice done to her, and I think its merciful that she does not. Those of us who know the hideous face of that evil are the ones who have a responsiblity to protect going forward....

The other people (mostly men - FACT) who had their "material age" periods of sloth :P all just got up and stopped wha'ever WITHOUT joining any help groups....rugged individualism is not all a bad thing....some of them were actually easier to handle when they were drunk - the un-smooth aspects of their personality are more assertive when sober and actually MORE of a problem - go figure :P

So the point IS that people are in DOUBLE JEAPORDY if they place all their TRUST in some "THING" like AA....and groups like TeaM target the "spirtual" aspect of that same AA group...Think about it - who could POSSIBLY be more vulnerable than recovering alcoholics (a lot of them did, and will, periodically have those episodes of "hearing voices" in their head as part of their "disease") to ANOTHER cult like TeaM? AA participants can be the MOST vulnerable to getting themselves tangled up with the worst quasi-religious CULTS and "practices"....

We've (her daughter and other NON-AA friends) got the back of my high school friend's SOUL covered, so to speak - and if that makes me a "b" - so be it....

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Posted 10 January 2009 - 05:07 PM

AA is NOT ever going to be able to address the TRUTH of just how bad what happened to her, and how ALL her adult caretakers failed her.

Your point about your friend’s past family experience and AA is a good one nuf. I am not here to defend AA or make it the topic of this forum, but I do have a number of years having seen the way the meetings work first hand. If someone ends up attending AA, usually it is because they have a physical addiction to alcohol. AA was never meant to be the end-all and be-all self-help group. Its sole purpose was to help alcoholics start down the road to recovery, which means to stop drinking.

The youth who came into the group home where I lived and worked, often came from family backgrounds where they were physically, sexually, and emotionally abused. Some horribly so and from very young ages. Often, they would turn to drugs and alcohol to numb their pain and medicate their feelings. Eventually, the addiction would become the primary problem and the past abusive experiences became the excuses for drinking. To deal with the drug and alcohol addiction part of the problem, one of the first things they needed to learn was past experiences are not the reason they drink; they drink because they are physically addicted to alcohol; the past family experiences are just an excuse to keep drinking. If they did not have one excuse, they would just find another. AA was never meant to replace other forms of therapy for psychological problems; its only role was to address the alcohol addiction. So, you are correct, AA is not going to be able to address the past family abuse issues, because it was never meant to do so. Sponsors are not trained psychologists and therapists and were never meant to be. They are only a friend to call up when one is about to take that first drink; someone to help in the road to recovery. And meetings are a place where one can begin to learn about the disease and take those first steps to recovery—learning to live without alcohol and self-medication.

No group is immune from anecdotal cases of "overly intrusive aspects." Not every sponsor is wise and unselfish. Sponsors can err too. But anecdotal cases do not define AA, its core teachings and mission statement do.

One of the requirements of being in the group home if the individual was dealing with an alcohol or narcotics addiction was that they enter a treatment and recovery program. AA was one of many options that were available. I witnessed it working in some cases, but not all. What I did witness though, was that for those lonely and isolated individuals that had absolutely no healthy family or social support group, it gave them a place to form new friendships with individuals who shared a similar problem and commitment to overcoming that problem--addiction to alcohol. And this sometimes helped them do that which is most difficult--cut off old so-called friendships with their drinking buddies and form new friendships built around activities other than drinking. And for many it was a matter of life or death.

I remember a young girl who was about 14 when she entered the group home. For discussion sake I will call her Jessie. Jessie had been drinking since about the age of 8 or 9. She was sexually abused by her father and then abandoned by her mother, both of whom were heroin addicts. She was in such an advanced stage of alcoholism that when she didn't drink, delirium tremens (DT's) would set in. She was one of the most challenging and difficult kids that ever entered the program. I don't think when she came to us she had one healthy human relationship that was not based upon either an exchange of sex for protection or drugs or alcohol with some male, or a relationship based upon drinking/drugging buddies.

The first year with Jessie was literally one battle after another. She was self-liberty run riot, and rules and policies had but one purpose--to be broken. Her favorite greeting, "f... you," was always on my ears ;-) My pat response was "I love you too." I remember one day I searched her room to confiscate her contraband, and found some very big doobies (ok, that gives my age away, I don't know what they call them nowdays). I flushed them down the toilet. The next week, while all of the kids were sitting at the dinner table, I hear from one of the other kids that the plumbing must not have been too good, because it came back up and Jessie retrieved it, dried it out, and smoked it. Without so much as looking up, my comment was, "That must have been some good shit." Jessie practically choked, and laughed so hard she spit her food at the kid sitting on the other side of the table. We had a hell of a laugh that night. In the end, it was persistence, humor, and consistent "tough love" that brought Jessie around.

She did not trust anyone. Yet, what she needed most was to know someone loved her and cared. The final straw came one night, after a year of ongoing work with her, when she was suffering from DTs. You see, she would try to stop drinking, but it was not easy when your body would go into withdrawals. She went to the local 7-11 and stole some beer, which she then hid in her room. Of course, I knew something was up, and when I confronted her in her room, I looked her in the face, and told her in no uncertain words I was not going to allow her to stay in the home if she was intent on drinking herself to death in front of the other kids and myself, and that I wanted her to go get the beer and give it to me. She did, and informed me that she had stolen it from 7-11. That night, together, we worked out a plan for her to make her wrong right. She would return the beer and apologize to the store owner, and if he agreed, she would do a car wash to reimburse him for all the six packs she had stolen and on the store owners insistence, the money would go to charity. I worked the car wash with her and we both had a fun time doing it. She learned that people can make mistakes and if they honestly fess up, can make amends.

Jessie, as part of her program, went to AA. She met an older lady who had been many years sober, and sought her out to become her sponsor. The women turned out to be a wise soul, and was a good sponsor, and became a good friend and in some way a surrogate mother to Jessie. In time, one could actually see the physical change that Jessie was going through. She was healthier in every way. She discovered she was capable of many things when her mind was clear, like getting good grades in school. Jessie went on to graduate from both school and the group home when she turned 18. I wasn't always able to keep in touch, but on more than one occasion, years later, after I had left the social work field and moved on to another career, a few of the kids made great effort to find me. Jessie was one of them. Years later I received a letter that reached me after perhaps a half dozen failed attempts, but finally, found its mark. In this letter she shared with me that she herself was now a mother, and for the first time, knew what it was like to love as a parent. She told me that she realized that this was the love that I had loved her with--like a parent. She said that in part, she learned how to love like a parent because of the way I loved her, and that she just wanted to tell me this. She said she realized love was not always nice, but sometimes included wise discipline, and recounted a few of our more memorable experiences. She found it humorous that she was now in the same role with her own growing children. She told me that her sponsor was still her life-long good friend, and was now like a grandmother to her children.

Not all the stories of the kids who passed through the group home turned out like Jessie. Some kept drinking; some would not learn to discipline themselves, and eventually had to leave the group home, especially if they were leading others astray and otherwise undermining the wellbeing of the group. But quite a few benefited from their experience, whether it be long or short, with AA and its program. But they also had other programs; friends, family, each other, to help them overcome their problems. AA was not the end-all be-all, but it was one part of the solution for some.

Only two points I really want to make: First, not everyone's experience in AA is going to be positive; nor is everyone's experience going to be negative, but over fives years of witnessing people in recovery, on balance, I have to say it works. And second, real parental love is not always "nice." It may always be fair, but sometimes, it may not feel "nice" when the parent confronts sometimes self-destructive behavior of the child. Real parents, who really love their children, don't stand by and say nothing when their children start taking drugs; that is what strangers do. Instead, they confront them, and tell them their behavior is very stupid and self-destructive. And if needs be, they discpline them, even severaly if that is what is called for.

BTW, in my book I would give your comments above an "a+" and you, an "AA++" nuf.

Edited by Fellow Reader, 11 January 2009 - 01:02 AM.


#27 nameless until fused

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 03:21 PM

If someone ends up attending AA, usually it is because they have a physical addiction to alcohol.

Agreed - which makes it a medical problem - first and foremost. A medical problem means that the medical provider's CONSCIENCE should not be getting in the way of treating the PHYSICAL problem at hand. Especially when their CONSCIENCE might be motivated by monetary concerns to ship off the "medical problem" to a cheaper "therapy". There really should be a "sin" tax on alcohol sales that goes to MEDICAL expenses - but that isn't going to happen because now people have a new "law" on the books - if your "conscience" tells you to "save" the tax money for something other than medical treatment for an alcoholic - like political lobbying for an ideaology about the SOURCE of alcoholism, then that's okeedokee....the art of medicine first and foremost demands OBJECTIVITY or it completely and rapidly devolves into political shamanism without ANY science. I think that the number of people who have a drinking problem and accept it as "imperfection" and "love" themselves anyway is a far greater number in the "Material Age" than the people who seek "help" - which gets me back to the point - the people who end up seeking help for their alcoholism are really seeking help for something else in their lives. As for the tee-totalers, well, the "voices" in their head....? Not a medical condition of psychoses, oh no, it's GOD talking to them (as "primitive" as "religion" gets, no?)....gosh, I hope there is no beer czar lurking, I believe I've made enough enemies already :P ....

Sponsors are not trained psychologists and therapists and were never meant to be.

Yup, "cheap" therapy...

She was self-liberty run riot, and rules and policies had but one purpose--to be broken.

The same judgement was hurled at the "feminists" at the turn of the 20th century who started their movement for the right to vote because of the rampant drunkeness is USA society back in their time and the way alcohol was destroying their families - we all know that the collective wisdom of the men prevailed and alcohol flows freely through the "economy"...

But they also had other programs; friends, family, each other, to help them overcome their problems. AA was not the end-all be-all, but it was one part of the solution for some.

AA is an artificial construct (meaning taking an aspect of life maintenance in society that can only be maintained by labor being able to enjoy the fruits of their labor and turning it into an offshoot channel of "charity" or "volunteerism"), and as such it does nothing to address the problems of CULTURAL decadence.

So objectively, medical therapy needs to be, FIRST, part of the solution to a far greater degree than it is now....as we follow the bouncing ball, "Jessie" never got the right health care to begin with....I come from a CULTURE where "grandma" had the WISDOM to KNOW what makes for a sane society and which "error" thread needs to be pulled first to straighten out the whole ball of wax - "...get the dealors"....I keep telling Grandma the "dealors" are the "power" over her and want more "power" over her - Grandma don't go for that....yup, she's being "self-assertive"....

I'd like to hear anyone's thoughts on how the Spirit of Wisdom could be "perceived" as some kind of "wrong" self-assertion...Page 402 in UB for definition of Spirit of Wisdom



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Posted 11 January 2009 - 04:59 PM

Your cynicism distorts reality Anna and leads you give expression to falsehoods. Your suspicion leads to usupportable leaps of logic. Indeed, we may have a health care crisis in this country, but that does not mean the leap of logic to malicious doctors shipping patients suffering from alcoholism to "cheap therapy" has any basis in reality. That is simply the expressions of a mind confused by anger and cynicism.

The best medical treatment available today utilizes all the means available; medication, professional counseling and therapy, and support groups, including 12 step programs such as AA. It is a indisputable fact that the vast majority of treatment programs, medical or otherwise, incorporate the 12-Steps as an integral part of their treatment. The professional medical literature makes clear that "Specialized alcohol counseling also works well, and all approaches (12-step, cognitive and motivational) are about equally effective." And further states, "Twelve-step programs can be an essential source of ongoing assistance for people working to maintain long-term recovery." Clearly, the medical profession does not consider AA or other 12 step programs "cheap therapy," but rather "an essential source of ongoing assistance for people working to maintain long-term recovery." ( http://www.hbo.com/a....html?current=2 )

It seems Anna in your unwise desire to win your fallacious and cynical argument that AA is “cheap therapy” at any cost, you are wiling to use self-debasing sarcasm, innuendo, and the careless spreading of falsehoods by implying that available medical treatments were withheld from the kids that passed through the program. Apparently, you have become so cynical that truth has little value for you. The real truth is that every medical and professional treatment available at the time was provided for the kids in the program. It is also a fact that at that time there was a very limited number of medical treatments available. The newer treatments that are available today, such as medications that make it next to impossible to drink without getting sick, or that alleviate the graving, became available much later. And even then, many of these medications were never meant to be taken for long periods of time, but rather were meant to assist in getting the addiction under control so that long-term recovery programs, such as AA, could allow the individual to learn new and better habits of living and thinking. It is a sad reflection on your state of mind Anna that you are more than willing to use careless and insensitive sarcasm to speak falsely of things you have no knowledge of or facts to speak about.

Yet, despite the lack at that time of some of today's medical treatments, which do not even today do away with the need for recovery programs like AA, many were able to avail themselves of recovery programs such as AA and to stop drinking, and that fact in itself reveals the utter rubbish of Anna's rant against AA and imaginary doctors that ship alcoholic patients off to "cheap therepy."

I have no interest in parsing or responding to the rest of your paranoid rant, but only feel it important to correct your ongoing spreading of false rumors and innuendo about that which you know nothing and appear to really care less about, other than to use the topic as a rhetorical scapegoat for your angry diatribe against the "system" and all its real or fictitious wrongs, or to hurl derogatory and demeaning mischaracterizations at a recovery program that the medical professionals themselves see as an "essential source of ongoing assistance for people working to maintain long-term recovery."

So, the question I have, is why the malicious agenda against AA that borders on a fanaticism willing to resort to spreading falsehoods, rumor, innuendo, self-debasing sarcasm? Don't you have something better to do with your time Anna?

As you view the world, remember that the black patches of evil which you see are shown against a white background of ultimate good. You do not view merely white patches of good which show up miserably against a black background of evil. (2076.3)

When there is so much good truth to publish and proclaim, why should men dwell so much upon the evil in the world just because it appears to be a fact? The beauties of the spiritual values of truth are more pleasurable and uplifting than is the phenomenon of evil. (2076.4)


[Is it really advisable to have someone with a clear personal agenda that is hostile and willing to spread falsehood and rumors about AA using the UAI forum as her personal rant board? Is that the intended purpose of this forum? I am finding it increasing difficult to see how Anna's false characterizations of AA relate to the purpose of the UAI or this forum or the teachings of the Urantia Book. Only observing from here on out, for it is "Better to meet a bear robbed of her cubs than a fool in her folly (Prov.17.12)," and "A fool finds no pleasure in understanding but delights in airing her own opinions (Prov.18.2)."]

Edited by Fellow Reader, 11 January 2009 - 09:28 PM.


#29 Midsoniter woman

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 06:46 PM

It’s the gender-integrated classroom that seems to hurt women, not any fault of AA. Nameless’ woman friend wouldn’t have been victimized if there had simply been more women-only meetings. Surely, Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob had a separate classroom for the women where they were safe from players and bums back in the day.

A woman acquaintance of mine who works at my veterans’ office was crying over her troubles so she decided to go to AA. Then I noticed that she started copping an attitude. She started cussing like a sailor. She became angry and violent. She started acting arrogant. She must have learned this bad behavior from AA men because she wasn’t like that before. I think she was better back when she was just crying a lot. At least before she didn’t have a ‘tude. She did manage to quit drinking in spite of it all, but now she has atrocious manners from the men in the AA meetings.

I also have some women acquaintances that just go to the women’s meetings only and they are very happy. My teacher was fired for drinking and she told me that she goes to a women-only AA meeting that is awesome and all the ladies there bring their knitting too.

Fellow Reader, this is my second attempt to thank you for your gallantry. My first one was deleted by admin. But I’m always glad when my posts are deleted because my mind changes from week to week. And I always wake up a week after posting something to wonder what the heck I was thinking a week ago. I’M POSSESSED! :P

Edited by Jessica, 11 January 2009 - 06:47 PM.

"If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man's rights, then sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men (Urantia Book, 938)."

#30 nameless until fused

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Posted 11 January 2009 - 09:11 PM

Your cynicism and suspicion leads to usupportable leaps of logic. Indeed, we may have a health care crisis in this country, but that does not mean the leap of logic to malicious doctors shipping patients suffering from alcoholism to "cheap therapy" has any basis in reality.


Doctors HAVE to do what insurance companies tell them to do - right? Isn't it all about cutting costs...? I am AMAZED that after the 1.8 BILLION dollar package the CEO of United Health Care gave himself in 2005, ANYONE could argue that EVERYONE in the health care "industries" were doing the right things by the patient - cost be damned. AMAZED....absolutely amazed....

As usual, you completely miss the SPIRITUAL view.

This is how you JUDGED "jessie"

"She was self-liberty run riot, and rules and policies had but one purpose--to be broken."

You also note:

"No group is immune from anecdotal cases of "overly intrusive aspects." Not every sponsor is wise and unselfish. Sponsors can err too. But anecdotal cases do not define AA, its core teachings and mission statement do."

My "jessie" is NOT an "anecdotal case". No human being on this planet, even in the most scientific and objective presentation of "data" can ever be referred to as an ANECDOTE.

The "core teachings and mission statements" of AA organizations cannot be compared to what MEDICAL practioners DO. PRIMARY CAREGIVING of health care is NOT an ideology - it's SCIENCE, and when done WITHOUT the intrusion of for-profit health insurance providers or people and their "conscience" - it might even work better FOR THE INDIVIDUAL with the health problem. And why should it be automatic that AA is the sub-contractor for ongoing labor, so to speak, that doctors recommend?

Alcoholics are depleted of B-vitamins and normal flora and fauna in their digestive system. Grandmas in previous generations DID manage to "cure" alcoholics with herbal medicines, like valerian and chamomille, and with healthy food (now how did grandma know about how much yogurt is needed for healing the digestive system of alcoholics?)

Thank you for the Tolstoy-like OBJECTIVE judgement of both my observation that alcoholism has a long history in USA and women and men are on different planets when it comes to cause and effect and for the humdinger judgement about YOUR "jessie" - "self liberty run riot"

Oh yeah, THAT's what abused children are suffering from - "self-liberty run riot"....yes, sarcasm, but I don't have as much time as you.

And not everyone will think that either your "jessie" story (boy, you sure love snowing everyone under with DETAILS) and my "jessie" story ended happily ever after with them both becoming a mother....

You better think twice, secret Moderator, before you delete this one...seriously.

Notice the deafening silence from the rest of the world about what works in their countries....?

Edited by nameless until fused, 11 January 2009 - 10:03 PM.


#31 Guest_U-rantian_*

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 03:33 AM

Dear Fellow Reader, Nameless until fused and Jessica and all.

1.- Previous frictional interactions between you two, Fellow Reader and Nuf and some involved like yoursef Jessica were edited and deleted by the administrator himself, no moderator acted in those actions. The administrator can confirm this. The Administrator has the authority to edit and delete posts in this Forum. However, behind scenes in the X-Zone some moderators gave some input regarding this situation.

2.- There are several approachs to fix this situation, editing and deleting was one. Another option is to publicly warn to those involved (without editing and deleting) that suspension will be in place based on those posts that are causing the tension.

3.- Fellow Reader and Nameless until Fused if you two cannot help yourselves having a conversation without friction the direct recommendation is that you two stop interacting, otherwise the tension will be allowed to go on and based on your replies and counterreplies suspensions will be issued.

4.- There will not be editing or deleting and it is left to you two the option of greatness. Your decision. P.317 - §1 When the spiritual tests of greatness are applied, the moral elements are not disregarded, but the quality of unselfishness revealed in disinterested labor for the welfare of one's earthly fellows, particularly worthy beings in need and in distress, that is the real measure of planetary greatness. And the manifestation of greatness on a world like Urantia is the exhibition of self-control. The great man is not he who "takes a city" or "overthrows a nation," but rather "he who subdues his own tongue."

5.- If you two come back to the original purpose of this thread instead of battling your personal opinions perhaps the UAI Forum moderators and Administrator will forget the whole thing.

U-rantian
Moderator

#32 PHIL

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 10:01 AM

Hi All;

P.557 - §14 28. The argumentative defense of any proposition is inversely proportional to the truth contained.
P.1692 - §8 To reject the truth contained in parabolical analogy requires conscious intellectual action which is directly in contempt of one's honest judgment and fair decision.

To one who has experienced and understands the 12 step program is witness to AND AWARE OF the truth of THE ANALOGY

of parallel spiritual concepts,principles and purpose of the program and the UB.

As to the 12 step program and the UB helping with spiritual; assent it is up to the individual

if you half ass anything the results are variable.

as to other available means of recovery including psychiatry;


"The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous" itself contains a famous introduction called "The Doctor's Opinion" by William D. Silkworth, a psychiatrist. The official AA position has consistently been one of humility and cooperation rather than grandiosity and exclusivity in regard to various ways of helping the alcoholic.

There is nothing in the official AA literature that prohibits the alcoholic from taking appropriately prescribed and required psychiatric medications.

Attitudes toward psychiatry and psychiatric medications, while always an individual matter, tend to vary somewhat in relation to specific groups. Up to 50% of alcoholics suffer from an associated "co-morbid" or "dual diagnosis" condition such as depression or severe anxiety. Newcomers in treatment for such conditions will generally feel more at home in meetings whose members respect the stated limitations of AA in regard to their diagnosis and treatment.


Sponsors in AA are NOT COUNSELORS the only thing similar is they do LISTEN to their fellow AA members

and as I said before their recommended treatment is[Spiritual] a RELATIONSHIP with God and a desire to do his will.

[This was also the recommended treatment suggested by a Famous Psychiatrist.]

In my experience a Alcoholic who rejected the Spiritual cure and opted for Secular Psychiatry

where most treatment involved some kind of drug theraphy eventually returned or on their own

sought the Spiritual.

As to 'cheap therapy' since Doing Gods will and turning your life over to him is the suggested treatment

it is cheap in the dollar sense BUT VERY HARD TO ACHIEVE AND VERY EXPENSIVE TO THE EGO.

The sponsors are Gods Volunteers[so to speak] and Psychiatrist and recovery homes do it for a Living

and do charge a steep fee if you find spiritual faith and courage through these means it is still money well spent.


Nuf AA knows your out there and are respect your rights to your opinions and views and even here give you a few links

to others who fell like you do.

Brainwashing, Mind Control and Cultism

AA has been accused of all of these, both by disgruntled former participants and also by those who have never set foot in an AA meeting. The newcomer will have to make up his own mind, based upon his own observations and experiences, about such charges, at least some of which seem to stem from negative experiences with the Dogmatists described above. If one simply recalls that all opinions expressed by AA members are just that, opinions; and if he remembers that no one in AA possesses any official rank or authority to dictate to anyone else what to think or how to behave in regard to anything at all, much of the air in such hostile balloons is immediately deflated.

The newcomer who hangs around long enough will usually have the pleasure of getting acquainted with as remarkably diverse, independent, defiant and colorful a collection of personalities as it has ever been his privilege to know. For far from it being the truth that all recovering alcoholics are alike in some stereotyped "programmed" fashion, it is the recovery from alcoholism that releases the actual individuality of each alcoholic. It is in fact the drinking alcoholic or the defiant newly "dry" alcoholic who is much more apt to resemble in thinking and behavior everyone else in the same category as himself. Genuine, as opposed to merely superficial, theatrical or pretend individuality actually only begins with recovery from alcoholism. For there is much more to being an individual than merely claiming to be one.

But not everyone is charmed by AA. Here are some sites with a decidedly different view. Caveat lector! ("Let the reader beware!")

*

AA Deprogramming
*

Why it is good to speak out against AA
*

How AA Steals Your Soul
*

AA's Role in Society: More Negative Than Positive?










Dear Fellow Reader, Nameless until fused and Jessica and all.

1.- Previous frictional interactions between you two, Fellow Reader and Nuf and some involved like yoursef Jessica were edited and deleted by the administrator himself, no moderator acted in those actions. The administrator can confirm this. The Administrator has the authority to edit and delete posts in this Forum. However, behind scenes in the X-Zone some moderators gave some input regarding this situation.

2.- There are several approachs to fix this situation, editing and deleting was one. Another option is to publicly warn to those involved (without editing and deleting) that suspension will be in place based on those posts that are causing the tension.

3.- Fellow Reader and Nameless until Fused if you two cannot help yourselves having a conversation without friction the direct recommendation is that you two stop interacting, otherwise the tension will be allowed to go on and based on your replies and counterreplies suspensions will be issued.

4.- There will not be editing or deleting and it is left to you two the option of greatness. Your decision. P.317 - §1 When the spiritual tests of greatness are applied, the moral elements are not disregarded, but the quality of unselfishness revealed in disinterested labor for the welfare of one's earthly fellows, particularly worthy beings in need and in distress, that is the real measure of planetary greatness. And the manifestation of greatness on a world like Urantia is the exhibition of self-control. The great man is not he who "takes a city" or "overthrows a nation," but rather "he who subdues his own tongue."

5.- If you two come back to the original purpose of this thread instead of battling your personal opinions perhaps the UAI Forum moderators and Administrator will forget the whole thing.

U-rantian
Moderator



#33 Guest_Fellow Reader_*

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 10:24 AM

Up to 50% of alcoholics suffer from an associated "co-morbid" or "dual diagnosis" condition such as depression or severe anxiety. Newcomers in treatment for such conditions will generally feel more at home in meetings whose members respect the stated limitations of AA in regard to their diagnosis and treatment.

Sponsors in AA are NOT COUNSELORS the only thing similar is they do LISTEN to their fellow AA members....

As to 'cheap therapy' since Doing Gods will and turning your life over to him is the suggested treatment it is cheap in the dollar sense BUT VERY HARD TO ACHIEVE AND VERY EXPENSIVE TO THE EGO....

If one simply recalls that all opinions expressed by AA members are just that, opinions; and if he remembers that no one in AA possesses any official rank or authority to dictate to anyone else what to think or how to behave in regard to anything at all, much of the air in such hostile balloons is immediately deflated.

The newcomer who hangs around long enough will usually have the pleasure of getting acquainted with as remarkably diverse, independent, defiant and colorful a collection of personalities as it has ever been his privilege to know. For far from it being the truth that all recovering alcoholics are alike in some stereotyped "programmed" fashion, it is the recovery from alcoholism that releases the actual individuality of each alcoholic. It is in fact the drinking alcoholic or the defiant newly "dry" alcoholic who is much more apt to resemble in thinking and behavior everyone else in the same category as himself. Genuine, as opposed to merely superficial, theatrical or pretend individuality actually only begins with recovery from alcoholism. For there is much more to being an individual than merely claiming to be one.


Thanks Phil ;-)

Edited by Fellow Reader, 12 January 2009 - 12:36 PM.


#34 Guest_Fellow Reader_*

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 03:09 PM

Thred Moved to Members Forum

Edited by Fellow Reader, 12 January 2009 - 04:35 PM.


#35 nameless until fused

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 03:55 PM

Well, I would hope that current readers and others who are looking for a book recommendation would be interested in being reminded that - at least I was - trying to have a conversation about self-assertion and liberty in CONTEXT of the age Urantia is experiencing:

Page 577 - The material-comfort era. "After food problems have been partially solved and some degree of security has been attained, the additional leisure is utilized to promote personal comfort. Luxury vies with necessity in occupying the center of the stage of human activities. Such an age is all too often characterized by tyranny, intolerance, gluttony, and drunkenness. The weaker elements of the races incline towards excesses and brutality. Gradually these pleasure-seeking weaklings are subjugated by the more strong and truth-loving elements of the advancing civilization."

And, of course, Page 786 - "Olden wars strengthened nations, but modern struggles disrupt civilized culture. Ancient warfare resulted in the decimination of inferior peoples; the net result of modern conflict is the selective destruction of the best human stocks."

I'm not worried about Phil and Fellow Reader - in "time" - and neither should anyone else be intimidated away from the UB by the antics of professional political spinmeisters with an agenda that basically is about NOT exercising "conscience" before the first button on their clothes gets unbuttoned. Pastor Rick Warren is on record from a TV show talking about the existential qualities of his sperm - as a woman, I could never think so long and deep about sperm as to imagine that it has "existential" divinity qualities - yikes.

Considering how self-assertive, aggressive and predatory the internet gangs of TeaM have been with UB readers, it would be foolish of anyone to think that their behaviour is any different with other people and "organizations". They take on many different names, but their methods are the same. Study Fellow readers LONG posts intent on creating "enemies" to pick up on the "classic" computer generated sentences...yes, computer generated....interesting, no? Amazing what is going on in "secret" worlds of computer, politics and power....girls in Vegas last week had no idea who they were pole dancing in front of at the computer geek fest....masters of the universe, ladies...they got YOU girls all figured out...

It helps to remember that TeaM are nothing more than "pleasure seeking weaklings" - imo - hence the need to belong to a "gang".

I absolutely draw the line at a psycho logic armed "gang" coming within a mile of recovering abused children and so should anyone else with a NORMAL brain and CONSCIENCE.

Definitely over and out on this topic....if Madoff can stay in his condo because he is not a threat to anyone, I can certainly say my piece about what IS and IS not in the UB on this website. "Sticks and stones can break your bones, but words will never hurt you..." - learned that in Catholic grammar school.....nuns arming us for "reality"....

There's enough to do with the UNREALITY of the "atonement doctrine" and keeping REAL religion away from "state" and politics to get bogged down in cultisms.

Anyone think Fellow Reader will fill some future needed antibiotic prescription for exposure to anthrax or will he ASSERT that his "conscience" will not allow him to give ME (am I Daligastia herself, huh? :P ) my "health care"...? Where does it begin and end...?

Be fair, Admin....you deleted my post the last time I tried to put this AA discussion in context of the Material Age referred to on Page 577...

Edited by nameless until fused, 12 January 2009 - 04:02 PM.


#36 PHIL

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 04:52 PM

Hi Nuf;

you wrote;

at least I was - trying to have a conversation about self-assertion

reply;

Well we may not have had a conversation but we all
demonstrated it by definition. :P


self-assertion
Noun
the act of putting forward one's own opinions or demanding one's rights, esp. in an aggressive or confident manner


AS TO THE TOPIC;

And it is a mystery how the Supreme fosters, protects, and perfects the creature without compelling him. He guides and directs, but without self-assertion

COMMENT;

It sure is a mystery

I recognize in my self my tendencies past and present to be somewhat unsuccessful

in balancing this;[especially with Family]

P.614 - §1 True liberty is the associate of genuine self-respect; false liberty is the consort of self-admiration. True liberty is the fruit of self-control; false liberty, the assumption of self-assertion. Self-control leads to altruistic service; self-admiration tends towards the exploitation of others for the selfish aggrandizement of such a mistaken individual as is willing to sacrifice righteous attainment for the sake of possessing unjust power over his fellow beings.

AND I ALSO REGISTER SOME FRUSTRATION IN MY INABILITY TO BE 'SECURE IN FAITH'

WHEN CONFRONTED[UB quote below] WITH THE TRUTH OF MY INEFFECTIVENESS IN THIS QUEST.

P.1119 - §7 One of the characteristic peculiarities of genuine religious assurance is that, notwithstanding the absoluteness of its affirmations and the stanchness of its attitude, the spirit of its expression is so poised and tempered that it never conveys the slightest impression of self-assertion or egoistic exaltation.


PHIL









Well, I would hope that current readers and others who are looking for a book recommendation would be interested in being reminded that - at least I was - trying to have a conversation about self-assertion and liberty in CONTEXT of the age Urantia is experiencing:

Page 577 - The material-comfort era. "After food problems have been partially solved and some degree of security has been attained, the additional leisure is utilized to promote personal comfort. Luxury vies with necessity in occupying the center of the stage of human activities. Such an age is all too often characterized by tyranny, intolerance, gluttony, and drunkenness. The weaker elements of the races incline towards excesses and brutality. Gradually these pleasure-seeking weaklings are subjugated by the more strong and truth-loving elements of the advancing civilization."

And, of course, Page 786 - "Olden wars strengthened nations, but modern struggles disrupt civilized culture. Ancient warfare resulted in the decimination of inferior peoples; the net result of modern conflict is the selective destruction of the best human stocks."

I'm not worried about Phil and Fellow Reader - in "time" - and neither should anyone else be intimidated away from the UB by the antics of professional political spinmeisters with an agenda that basically is about NOT exercising "conscience" before the first button on their clothes gets unbuttoned. Pastor Rick Warren is on record from a TV show talking about the existential qualities of his sperm - as a woman, I could never think so long and deep about sperm as to imagine that it has "existential" divinity qualities - yikes.

Considering how self-assertive, aggressive and predatory the internet gangs of TeaM have been with UB readers, it would be foolish of anyone to think that their behaviour is any different with other people and "organizations". They take on many different names, but their methods are the same. Study Fellow readers LONG posts intent on creating "enemies" to pick up on the "classic" computer generated sentences...yes, computer generated....interesting, no? Amazing what is going on in "secret" worlds of computer, politics and power....girls in Vegas last week had no idea who they were pole dancing in front of at the computer geek fest....masters of the universe, ladies...they got YOU girls all figured out...

It helps to remember that TeaM are nothing more than "pleasure seeking weaklings" - imo - hence the need to belong to a "gang".

I absolutely draw the line at a psycho logic armed "gang" coming within a mile of recovering abused children and so should anyone else with a NORMAL brain and CONSCIENCE.

Definitely over and out on this topic....if Madoff can stay in his condo because he is not a threat to anyone, I can certainly say my piece about what IS and IS not in the UB on this website. "Sticks and stones can break your bones, but words will never hurt you..." - learned that in Catholic grammar school.....nuns arming us for "reality"....

There's enough to do with the UNREALITY of the "atonement doctrine" and keeping REAL religion away from "state" and politics to get bogged down in cultisms.

Anyone think Fellow Reader will fill some future needed antibiotic prescription for exposure to anthrax or will he ASSERT that his "conscience" will not allow him to give ME (am I Daligastia herself, huh? :P ) my "health care"...? Where does it begin and end...?

Be fair, Admin....you deleted my post the last time I tried to put this AA discussion in context of the Material Age referred to on Page 577...



#37 Guest_U-rantian_*

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Posted 12 January 2009 - 05:02 PM

Dear Fellow Reader

Let us discuss this issue publicly. The problem was born here then the best place to deal with it is here.

U-rantian

Dear Fellow Reader, Nameless until fused and Jessica and all.

1.- Previous frictional interactions between you two, Fellow Reader and Nuf and some involved like yoursef Jessica were edited and deleted by the administrator himself, no moderator acted in those actions. The administrator can confirm this. The Administrator has the authority to edit and delete posts in this Forum. However, behind scenes in the X-Zone some moderators gave some input regarding this situation.

2.- There are several approachs to fix this situation, editing and deleting was one. Another option is to publicly warn to those involved (without editing and deleting) that suspension will be in place based on those posts that are causing the tension.

3.- Fellow Reader and Nameless until Fused if you two cannot help yourselves having a conversation without friction the direct recommendation is that you two stop interacting, otherwise the tension will be allowed to go on and based on your replies and counterreplies suspensions will be issued.

4.- There will not be editing or deleting and it is left to you two the option of greatness. Your decision. P.317 - §1 When the spiritual tests of greatness are applied, the moral elements are not disregarded, but the quality of unselfishness revealed in disinterested labor for the welfare of one's earthly fellows, particularly worthy beings in need and in distress, that is the real measure of planetary greatness. And the manifestation of greatness on a world like Urantia is the exhibition of self-control. The great man is not he who "takes a city" or "overthrows a nation," but rather "he who subdues his own tongue."

5.- If you two come back to the original purpose of this thread instead of battling your personal opinions perhaps the UAI Forum moderators and Administrator will forget the whole thing.

U-rantian
Moderator

Ask youself this question U-rantian:

Do you think the UAI Forum is a place for posting unsubstantiated rumors and innuendo and attacks upon groups and persons?

Is the characterization of AA as an organization that "brainwashes" its members and "cheap therepy" (even though it is today recommended by health care professionals as a important part of a recovery program) appropriate for the UAI's world-wide public forum?

That is basically a form of libel (group attack) against the organization of AA which is refuted by the medical profession. And it was not the only one. Nuf may not know what she does; but those who administer this forum should. And they should be able to recognize the following as a similar kind of inappropriate communication for the public world-wide face of the UAI, to wit:

Mormons are copying their current tricks from ALL "evil" that came before them.

Pharisee Warren believes that his sperm carries existential qualities of divinity.

Also, W.H.O. has estimated that 80% of the current world's population is due to rape.

Brainwashing - n,: Intensive indoctrination, usually political, aimed at changing a person's basic convictions and attitudes and replacing them with a fixed and unquestioned set of beliefs.

Aren't there OTHER methods for "washing" the brain free of an alcohol addiction in countries around the world?

There is nothing in the UB about AA as a health care organization.

The first is an attack upon another group via collective stereotyping, the second is simply a rude and caustic personal attack, and the third, is a false rumor. And of course added to all of this is the last attack upon the group (AA) based upon rumor and innuendo. For the record, the majority of such attacks upon AA come from what is termed in the academic arena “anti-cult” movements, many of which are made up of fundamentalist and conservative Christian evangelical counter-cult groups who see boogey men in anything other than traditional Christianity. And of course, their charge is that AA is “brainwashing” because there is a so-called spiritual element to the teachings and this is what they see as opposed to Christianity. Is the UAI really an appropriate forum for perpetrating such biased propaganda?

What passes as civil dialogue on this forum reflects on the UAI as a world-wide organization. It has nothing to do with a personal issue, but has everything to do with how the world will view the UAI when the visitors come to this forum and find communications like the following above.

RULES

1. Civility. Dialogue is expected to be civil and respectful. Profanity is not permitted. Since we are communicating with diverse people of different cultural backgrounds, civility can be subjective and a common standard for civility may be difficult to define. However, if each forum member acts as a son or daughter of God, he/she will not present a problem to the forum moderators.

2. Personal attacks. Attacks upon the character, personality, heritage, beliefs, motives, or actions of any persons are unacceptable.

3. Group attacks. Attacks upon the purposes, policies, plans or procedures of any group or organization are unacceptable.

And for the record. When such statements are posted on the forum, and someone pushes the report button, and a moderator and/or administrator edits the post, and then nuf comes onto the forum personally attacking anyone who edits (only moderators or administers can do that) or reports her violation, that too is an abuse of this forum and its members.

Why is it U-rantian that missing from your list above is a very simple solution; the moderators actually enforce the rules of this forum for both the short-term and long-term wellbeing of the forum and the larger world-wide mission and wellbeing of the UAI. When personal and group attacks are allowed to be posted on the world-wide forum of the UAI it reflects upon the organization as whole, because it is within the power of those who administer this board to enforce the rules and maintain a certain standard of civil communication.

If you insist U-rantian on mischaracterizing as a personal issue the reporting of such violations of the rules and standards of this forum as is evidenced in the group attacks above, than you will leave me no other choice but to take this issue to the larger UAI membership to consider if this form of group attack and false characterization is appropriate for the world-wide public face of the UAI. This is not a personal issue; it is an issue of what the standards of the UAI as an organization, with a public forum viewable by the entire global community will be when it comes to these kinds of communications.

The administrator and moderators have an ethical duty to give careful consideration to the content that is posted on the UAI Forum. Not all content is appropriate and it is not a personal issue when inappropriate content is pointed out, reported, edited, or deleted from posts. Any member who joins who is unable or refuses to accept such moderation (self or otherwise) should not be allowed to use the UAI Forum for their personal agendas or to spread false rumors and/or engage in attacks upon persons and groups. It is only natural that it is expected that those who take on the role and responsibility of moderating and/or administering this forum familiarize themselves with the basic definitions of ad hominem attacks upon groups or persons, and otherwise remain sensitive to how material posted on the UAI's public forums will be potentially viewed by those unfamiliar with the teachings of the Urantia Book so not to mislead, confused, or otherwise given a distorted view of its teachings by allowing the publication of forms of communication that would be considered uncivil.

The rules are clear, but they are clearly not being enforced.

#38 Midsoniter woman

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 06:43 AM

U-rantian, I'm not mad at admin. I'm mad at myself for not knowing how to word things better. I'm happy with admin. I need serious supervision. :P

Also, someone mentioned womens' right to vote being labeled by me as self-assertion. There are vast amounts of rights under the umbrella of the women's movement. I examine EACH ONE in the Urantia Book to determine which ones are true liberty and which ones are self-liberty. Each person has to make up their own minds. Unless you're Ann Coulter, I think we all agree that the right to vote would qualify as true liberty.
"If woman aspires literally to enjoy all of man's rights, then sooner or later, pitiless and emotionless competition will certainly replace that chivalry and special consideration which many women now enjoy, and which they have so recently won from men (Urantia Book, 938)."

#39 nameless until fused

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:48 PM

If the "rules" of this forum were to be enforced on ALL of everything that every human experiences, then Melchizedek of Nebadon would have been censored from writing:

Page 752 - "It should be noted that both Lucifer and Caligastia had been patiently instructed and lovingly warned respecting their critical tendencies and the subtle development of their pride of self and its associated exaggeration of the feeling of self-importance."

Definitely "libelous" stuff...

#40 Guest_Fellow Reader_*

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 04:20 PM

If the "rules" of this forum were to be enforced on ALL of everything that every human experiences, then Melchizedek of Nebadon would have been censored from writing:

Page 752 - "It should be noted that both Lucifer and Caligastia had been patiently instructed and lovingly warned respecting their critical tendencies and the subtle development of their pride of self and its associated exaggeration of the feeling of self-importance."

Definitely "libelous" stuff...

Melchizedek's comments have nothing to do with your sometimes angry sarcasm, and everything to do with Jesus teachings. It is not a matter of "censorship" but rather, a matter of transforming an unruly member:

All believers in this gospel should pray sincerely for the extension of the kingdom of heaven. Of all the prayers of the Hebrew scriptures he commented most approvingly on the petition of the Psalmist: "Create in me a clean heart, O God, and renew a right spirit within me. Purge me from secret sins and keep back your servant from presumptuous transgression." Jesus commented at great length on the relation of prayer to careless and offending speech, quoting: "Set a watch, O Lord, before my mouth; keep the door of my lips." "The human tongue," said Jesus, "is a member which few men can tame, but the spirit within can transform this unruly member into a kindly voice of tolerance and an inspiring minister of mercy." (1640.2)


Take care that you do not wound the self-respect of timid and fearful souls. Do not indulge in sarcasm at the expense of my simple-minded brethren. Be not cynical with my fear-ridden children. (1765.6)


Anger is a material manifestation which represents, in a general way, the measure of the failure of the spiritual nature to gain control of the combined intellectual and physical natures. Anger indicates your lack of tolerant brotherly love plus your lack of self-respect and self-control. Anger depletes the health, debases the mind, and handicaps the spirit teacher of man's soul. Have you not read in the Scriptures that `wrath kills the foolish man,' and that man `tears himself in his anger'? That `he who is slow of wrath is of great understanding,' while `he who is hasty of temper exalts folly'? You all know that `a soft answer turns away wrath,' and how `grievous words stir up anger.' `Discretion defers anger,' while `he who has no control over his own self is like a defenseless city without walls.' `Wrath is cruel and anger is outrageous.' `Angry men stir up strife, while the furious multiply their transgressions.' `Be not hasty in spirit, for anger rests in the bosom of fools.'" Before Jesus ceased speaking, he said further: "Let your hearts be so dominated by love that your spirit guide will have little trouble in delivering you from the tendency to give vent to those outbursts of animal anger which are inconsistent with the status of divine sonship. (1673.2)

You have wonderful things to say, and I have seen you express them with both tact and wit--respectfully. I enjoyed your expressions greatly and hope to continue with the pleasure. It is up to you; only you can make the choice.

Edited by Fellow Reader, 13 January 2009 - 04:29 PM.





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