57 replies to this topic

[nameless until fused]

Topical reminder about suicide (and why "truth is not a person") - the Jim Jones and Jonestown mass suicide story is being remembered in a documentary on CNN this week.

(I'm all for education, Phil).

Since "truth" is an aspect of Divinity - I am glad it was confirmed for me in the UB that it's safest for humans to have God as their sovereign of TRUTH - we all are so limited with our biological version of "mind" in this existence, that even SUPERMINDED thinking will only take you so far in the search for the ALL of TRUTH.

Carolyn, the suicide you are dealing with, not due to "religious" brainwashing, was it?

The head of bioethics at the NIH, Ezekiel Emanuel, has discussed assisted suicide a lot....research his articles...

Also, in the UB we have a "moment of passion", so to speak, suicide story about Serapatatia.

And for some gallows humour, don't worry, you'll get the chance to ask the person why they commited suicide on "earth" when you meet them again on the MORONtia Worlds. Catholics and ALL others seem to have it wrong in regards to God's idea of mercy and justice - go figure

[Carolyn]

Carolyn, the suicide you are dealing with, not due to "religious" brainwashing, was it?

No.
The "religion" thought he was a really nice guy? So much for Women's rights there, huh? The fraternal order to which he left his huge stack of materal wealth doesn't think too much of "we girls" either.

When I tried to get help over the years I found that only the courts could set you free.

Now I know that only death does. His.

LOL,

Carolyn

[Carolyn]

How immature and misguided where my statements of late.

Experiencing forgiveness after so many years to the point of finding a way to amazingly love unconditionally an enemy has done exactly what Jesus of Nazareth said it would do: It has brought me a profound peace.

Even the eulogy I practice in my head is positive and remembers the man.

Thank you, you grown up children of God, for letting me grow a bit here among friends.

Love,

Carolyn

Edited by Carolyn, 19 November 2008 - 01:47 AM.

[PHIL]

HI CAROLYN;

Funny the other night I was watching Passion of Christ [NUF'S favorite movie ]

and I thought of this thread; if anything that Movie did reveal the level of Forgiveness available

to us and expected from us[or at least a goal for us]


P.2018 - §1 The cross forever shows that the attitude of Jesus toward sinners was neither condemnation nor condonation, but rather eternal and loving salvation. Jesus is truly a savior in the sense that his life and death do win men over to goodness and righteous survival. Jesus loves men so much that his love awakens the response of love in the human heart. Love is truly contagious and eternally creative. Jesus' death on the cross exemplifies a love which is sufficiently strong and divine to forgive sin and swallow up all evil-doing. Jesus disclosed to this world a higher quality of righteousness than justice--mere technical right and wrong. Divine love does not merely forgive wrongs; it absorbs and actually destroys them. The forgiveness of love utterly transcends the forgiveness of mercy. Mercy sets the guilt of evil-doing to one side; but love destroys forever the sin and all weakness resulting therefrom. Jesus brought a new method of living to Urantia. He taught us not to resist evil but to find through him a goodness which effectually destroys evil. The forgiveness of Jesus is not condonation; it is salvation from condemnation. Salvation does not slight wrongs; it makes them right. True love does not compromise nor condone hate;

I find forgiveness[not condoning]'always' benefits the forgiver and is a bonus when it influences the one forgiven.

The UB[and some drunks and druggies] taught me that forgiving my fellows would allow me to ACCEPT

Divine forgiveness and in my experience I have found this to BE accurate BUT VERY DIFFICULT TO ALWAYS PERFORM.

But when I do; I get the same peace you are telling us about in this post.

PHIL

How immature and misguided where my statements of late.

Experiencing forgiveness after so many years to the point of finding a way to amazingly love unconditionally an enemy has done exactly what Jesus of Nazareth said it would do: It has brought me a profound peace.

Even the eulogy I practice in my head is positive and remembers the man.

Thank you, you grown up children of God, for letting me grow a bit here among friends.

Love,

Carolyn

Edited by PHIL, 19 November 2008 - 10:15 AM.

[nameless until fused]

Standing gallows humor joke at the funerals I have attended over the years is:

"it sure is easy to love them once they are dead"

[Carolyn]

There comes a time in every mortal's life when we learn "what doesn't kill us, we can survive."

There is no love in the last post. One can be funny, critical, even cynical, but about things, almost sacred ( even shared), these comments are unfeeling, hateful, rude, and grossly unacceptable in a civilized society, no matter what the motive...

Carolyn

Standing gallows humor joke at the funerals I have attended over the years is:

"it sure is easy to love them once they are dead"

[Carolyn]

Recently, while our daughter was visiting us, my dear 13 year old pet died. Adult daughter stated that it was ok and I should not cry, as I would see him again along with all our other departed pets. When I told her my UB understanding of why we don't "see" our pets after death, she was crushed.

Now, we have always held a simple funeral for our departed pets just so the younger children, grands, or great-grands will be able to get my the sadness and then we go get a replacement. That is exactly what we did recently.

p. 404 par. 3 "The life bestowed upon plants and animals by the Life Carriers does not return to the Life Carriers upon eath of a plant or animal. The departing life of such a living thing possesses neither identity nor personality; it does not inividually survive death. During its existence and the time of its sojourn in the body of matter, it has undergone a change; it has undergone energy evolution and survives only as a partof the cosmic forces of he universe; it does not survive as individual life. The survival of mortal creatures is wholly predicated on the evolution of an immortal soul within the mortal mind."

When I first read this I, too, was crushed.

I get this...but it is still not so "warm and fuzzy" for those that do not?

Your thots.

Love,

Carolyn

[Meredith Van Woert]

Hi Carolyn, all,

It is sad to lose a pet.  Won't ever see it again, as it ". . . survives only as a part of the cosmic forces of the universe. . . " as you point out.  I hold on to the posssibility I might meet up with my loved ones who have passed.  But those good (and sometimes bad) and faithful (and sometimes not so faithful) pets are gone forever when they pass.  When my last pet had to go, I cried like a baby. I gave myself a bouquet of flowers, as a remembrance. I happen to be one of a type of person who enjoys a pet and derives pleasure from one. I did not replace it, though.

Yes, we did pet funerals in past times. The kids buried Biff the cat at the base of an avocado tree. It was a favorite cat, a special cat. I think they put flowers in the grave. Biff was all wrapped up special. More flowers on top. And then a rock. And then the soil. They put a marker there to mark the spot. A few days later Biff was gone. A coyote dug it up and dragged it away. We found some parts. We put them in a really, really deep hole, and said goodbye to Biff once again.

Meredith

Recently, while our daughter was visiting us, my dear 13 year old pet died. Adult daughter stated that it was ok and I should not cry, as I would see him again along with all our other departed pets. When I told her my UB understanding of why we don't "see" our pets after death, she was crushed.Now, we have always held a simple funeral for our departed pets just so the younger children, grands, or great-grands will be able to get my the sadness and then we go get a replacement. That is exactly what we did recently.p. 404 par. 3 "The life bestowed upon plants and animals by the Life Carriers does not return to the Life Carriers upon eath of a plant or animal. The departing life of such a living thing possesses neither identity nor personality; it does not inividually survive death. During its existence and the time of its sojourn in the body of matter, it has undergone a change; it has undergone energy evolution and survives only as a partof the cosmic forces of he universe; it does not survive as individual life. The survival of mortal creatures is wholly predicated on the evolution of an immortal soul within the mortal mind."When I first read this I, too, was crushed. I get this...but  it is still not so "warm and fuzzy" for those that do not? :)Your thots.Love,Carolyn

[Carolyn]

Dear Meredith,

In the desert we too have had to dig a deep hole for our departed pets. When we moved recently to our new home one of the things we had to part with was the 40 year old pet cemetery. There is "Daisy" the shetland pony, several hamsters, two rats, many bunnies, many chickens, cats, and dogs. Of course with many children and some Grands, who all loved their animals, it is layered.

It has been our experience that all of us have learned to accept death, and grief in a good way because of the way we allowed each to grieve, have a sweet funeral, bury the shoe boxes and even the piano box for Daisy. The last two dogs to leave us are buried here in the new dog yard.

Even though we know we will never "see" them again, we have a lot of memories of the love and devotion that only a pet can give. Could that be a lesson from our Creator Mother; if we accept and love animals and care for them, we learn to be better at loving and accepting love?

LOL,

Carolyn

Hi Carolyn, all,

It is sad to lose a pet.  Won't ever see it again, as it ". . . survives only as a part of the cosmic forces of the universe. . . " as you point out.  I hold on to the posssibility I might meet up with my loved ones who have passed.  But those good (and sometimes bad) and faithful (and sometimes not so faithful) pets are gone forever when they pass.  When my last pet had to go, I cried like a baby. I gave myself a bouquet of flowers, as a remembrance. I happen to be one of a type of person who enjoys a pet and derives pleasure from one. I did not replace it, though.

Yes, we did pet funerals in past times. The kids buried Biff the cat at the base of an avocado tree. It was a favorite cat, a special cat. I think they put flowers in the grave. Biff was all wrapped up special. More flowers on top. And then a rock. And then the soil. They put a marker there to mark the spot. A few days later Biff was gone. A coyote dug it up and dragged it away. We found some parts. We put them in a really, really deep hole, and said goodbye to Biff once again.

Meredith

[Bill Martin]

I wish to remark on the way we revert to our evolutionary roots in that time of sorrow when a loved member of the family dies. It gives true comfort to lovingly prepare our departed pet friends for burial, as if they were human also. A brush up to arrange the hair, wrap them up in a burial shroud (usually an expensive and favorite throw or blanket), a nice deep hole with a headstone or sign with the pertinent information, and a servicable blanket of stones to preserve the body from the depredations of the carrion-eaters.

In life, as in death, pets get first-class treatment from animal lovers. It is good to remember dogs have no soul to repersonalize (say it ain't so!) lest we get "carried away" and lose touch with the reality quotient of any pet crisis. Your love for them is real and their adoration of you is total. The sequential appearance and functioning of the first five adjutants of spiritual ministry bestowed by our loving Mother Spirit is told on page P.709 - §4 At first only the spirit of intuition could function in the instinctive and reflex behavior of the primordial animal life. With the differentiation of higher types, the spirit of understanding was able to endow such creatures with the gift of spontaneous association of ideas. Later on we observed the spirit of courage in operation; evolving animals really developed a crude form of protective self-consciousness. Subsequent to the appearance of the mammalian groups, we beheld the spirit of knowledge manifesting itself in increased measure. And the evolution of the higher mammals brought the function of the spirit of counsel, with the resulting growth of the herd instinct and the beginnings of primitive social development.

It is my belief ( an I have been wrong many times before) that my dog responds to the first five of these ministrations of our Universe Spirit Mother so completely that it almost equivilates in totallity of function(like the spornagia) to a unified sixth- and should he have an opposable thumb (or prehensile tail)- and live on the celestial worlds, he too could experience this reincarnation .


The ONLY Reincarnation
.528 - §1 Spornagia are not Adjuster indwelt. They do not possess survival souls, but they do enjoy long lives, sometimes to the extent of forty to fifty thousand standard years. Their number is legion, and they afford physical ministry to all orders of universe personalities requiring material service.
P.528 - §2 Although spornagia neither possess nor evolve survival souls, though they do not have personality, nevertheless, they do evolve an individuality which can experience reincarnation. When, with the passing of time, the physical bodies of these unique creatures deteriorate from usage and age, their creators, in collaboration with the Life Carriers, fabricate new bodies in which the old spornagia re-establish their residences.
P.528 - §3 Spornagia are the only creatures in all the universe of Nebadon who experience this or any other sort of reincarnation. They are only reactive to the first five of the adjutant mind-spirits; they are not responsive to the spirits of worship and wisdom. But the five-adjutant mind equivalates to a totality or sixth reality level, and it is this factor which persists as an experiential identity.
P.528 - §6 There are those who believe that, in a future universe age, these faithful spornagia will escape from their animal level of existence and attain a worthy evolutional destiny of progressive intellectual growth and even spiritual achievement.

Around this farm, we make a point to always remember to treat neighbors and strangers with the same care we lavish on our pets. It's only fair to the neighbors and strangers.


Love your neighbor (and your pet) as God would love them.




Bill Martin

[PHIL]

"Recently, while our daughter was visiting us, my dear 13 year old pet died. Adult daughter stated that it was ok and I should not cry, as I would see him again along with all our other departed pets. When I told her my UB understanding of why we don't "see" our pets after death, """""she was crushed."""""

REPLY;

It might be best to let one find out on there own there is no "Santa Claus"[so to speak] OR MAYBE NOT?

Your daughter seemed to have your best interest in her intent.

I believe the given and received 'LOVE' with our pets is eternal; and there may be a chance

we will be able to relive moments with our pets on a 'Cosmic DVD' so to speak ON THE MANSION WORLDS.


Phil

There comes a time in every mortal's life when we learn "what doesn't kill us, we can survive."

There is no love in the last post. One can be funny, critical, even cynical, but about things, almost sacred ( even shared), these comments are unfeeling, hateful, rude, and grossly unacceptable in a civilized society, no matter what the motive...

Carolyn

[Carolyn]

Dear PHIL,

I really like that "warm and fuzzy" thought. Sometimes that is the perfect answer.

Our daughter is 36. I think it was ok to pop the bubble and yet her Dad told her she could believe anything she wanted when it came to her pets. We are such animal lovers.

Love,

Carolyn

"I believe the given and received 'LOVE' with our pets is eternal; and there may be a chance
we will be able to relive moments with our pets on a 'Cosmic DVD' so to speak ON THE MANSION WORLDS.


Phil

[nameless until fused]

Been traveling, Carolyn, and just read this.

Guess you had to be there when the one-liner is/was injected into the POST-sacred, so to speak, "rememberance" at the meal/party where the "remember me" really happens.

Maybe it's a guy thing, that one-liner, but as an observer at the party, I did NOT perceive that, in context, it was "unfeeling, hateful, rude, and grossly unacceptable in a civilized society". Everybody present loved the deceased person. Warts and all...

But your lecture (below) to the group doing the "remembrance" would have been something to see - IF you had decided to do it face to face and in the moment. I doubt you would have, though. For you might have also discerned that behind that comment was the sorrow of not always loving someone as well as we could while all here together in the flesh. Funerals are a good time to reflect on that, and a part of the grieving process. If loving each other was so easy, wouldn't we all be better at it?

I don't live in a perfect world, with perfect scripted conversations....and waiting for me this Friday is attending the "remembrance" of a dear friend and neighbor I lost just last week, day before Thanksgiving. So I'm off to print up the most recent photo I have of her and add it to the board, as requested by her husband.

My one-liner to an unscripted "remembrance" conversation is the line from an Enigma song - "Dying is teaching us how to live".

It makes more and more sense why Jesus chose the family meal/party as the place where "remembrance" of our dearly loved departed ones really takes place.

Kind regards.

There comes a time in every mortal's life when we learn "what doesn't kill us, we can survive."

There is no love in the last post. One can be funny, critical, even cynical, but about things, almost sacred ( even shared), these comments are unfeeling, hateful, rude, and grossly unacceptable in a civilized society, no matter what the motive...

Carolyn

[Carolyn]

Dear 'nuf,

May this latest loss fair well. There are times when it seems that the losses are increasing. Old age?

As time goes by all seems to settle to acceptance of the relationship as it was in reality and not the potential. Regrets are certainly a useless activity unless one actually still has the "time" to "fix" the regrets.

I found this quote from UB about love: "The experience of loving is very much a direct response to the experience of being loved." With the ex-husband that was the gist of the relationship; never loved, but trying to love anyway. I have no regrets for that, just that I could never "fix" it.

I do always regret a post I make without thinking about the outcome. So... sorryyyy about the words.

LOL,

Carolyn

[nameless until fused]

Sometimes it seems like there is entirely too much micro-managing going on of absolutely everything in life. Jesus was not a micro-manager of men, the Pharisees were. It is also noted by another UB author that that is not the way to have relationships with people - micro-managing them.

It has become too pervasive in this "modern" life - this pouncing on the behaviour of others. I do not consider it "progress" to have a computer chip in a car tell me that my driving is not achieving optimal gas mileage. "Progress" is designing a combustion engine that has been mechanically perfected to achieve good mileage no matter who is driving it.

If there is one place where a lot of leeway needs to be generously lavished - it's at funerals.

You're right, there is the emotion of "regret" on top of all the other emotions and it takes lots of time to work through ALL of it - usually the rest of your life your mind will wander back to a memory of a departed one.....as a "middle-aged" person, I have attended the funerals of children lost to cancer, teenagers lost to accidents, peers lost to the cumulation of chronic stress and, of course, the NATURAL passing on of the elderly. My octagenarian neighbor passed away without suffering, peacefully, which is how she mentioned she would like death to take her. The funerals of the elderly seem to be the easiest, emotionally, to handle. There is a wealth of their personal history that lends that color of bittersweet joy to the attendees celebrating a long, good life. May we all be so blessed.

Since I do believe we can all meet again one day, learning from "regret" that I could have been a better friend, daughter, sister, cousin, mate, mother, etc is something I want to remember so that I can "fix" it somewhere down the road of my ascender's adventure AND remember to take advantage of all the opportunities to not create more regrets while still here in the flesh.

I'll agree that there are some people on whom we might have lavished love and kindness that turned out to be more of a pearl to swine thingy. However, it was not my "sin" that I "loved" the unlovable until I learned the lesson.

"Eternal" judgement of a soul is best left to those truly qualified to know all the potentials of "loving" that free-willed creatures are capable of....and who truly chose not to love one another while on Urantia.

Watch them judgemental "words", Carolyn, when dealing with "death"

Dear 'nuf,

May this latest loss fair well. There are times when it seems that the losses are increasing. Old age?

As time goes by all seems to settle to acceptance of the relationship as it was in reality and not the potential. Regrets are certainly a useless activity unless one actually still has the "time" to "fix" the regrets.

I found this quote from UB about love: "The experience of loving is very much a direct response to the experience of being loved." With the ex-husband that was the gist of the relationship; never loved, but trying to love anyway. I have no regrets for that, just that I could never "fix" it.

I do always regret a post I make without thinking about the outcome. So... sorryyyy about the words.

LOL,

Carolyn

[Carolyn]

Sometimes it seems like there is entirely too much micro-managing going on of absolutely everything in life.

If there is one place where a lot of leeway needs to be generously lavished - it's at funerals.

Watch them judgemental "words", Carolyn, when dealing with "death"

'nuf,

Watching the "judgemental words" when writing is much more difficult than when having a nice face to face conversation. I will always be better at the spoken word than the written.

Absolutely; tons of leeway. If nothing else comes from this thread, we have begun to "get it"; there are as many ways to "celebrate" a death as there are personalities. Now there is a mind bender. "Funerals are like snowflakes."

In our local newspaper there was written a letter to the editor relating the events of a unique celebration-of-life for a much loved car-parts sculture/artist. I had fun just reading about it and can bet the folks who put on this tribute to "the great artist" (as they professed he was) had a wild time. I've never seen the man's work but apparently he had friends around the globe and many flew to this remote area to say farewell.

But, in contrast, the person in my past that died, still lies in the morgue. Can't seem to find the folks responsible for the remains. Noone flying in for a farewell either.

Living life and dealing with death certainly does clearly give us experience during this first chance at attempting "perfection.

LOL,

Carolyn

[nameless until fused]

But, in contrast, the person in my past that died, still lies in the morgue. Can't seem to find the folks responsible for the remains. Noone flying in for a farewell either.


Carolyn

See, now that is what I would call "spooky".....it's confirmation of the existence of the "walking dead" among us....what it's like to be as if you never were....

Not your "sin", Carolyn....and being as how the universe knows a little more about "justice" that we do on this cosmically insane planet, you won't be judged for HIS sins...

The funeral for my neighbor yesterday was lovely - all the veterans in the audience from the military stood up to salute her while "Taps" was played...when her husband received the folded flag, he pretty much broke down for about a half-hour....they loved each other very much and were wonderful old-age companions to each other....

At the repast, it was noted that no one had a "colorful" story to tell ABOUT my lovely neighbor, herself, she was just so consistently "good" - but there were quite a few colorful characters that entered her life through the families of the three men she had as husbands - the first two husbands, she buried.

She joked with me and said she wanted to go first this time....I'll miss her a lot and hope to be neighbors with her again one day....

Kind regards...

[Carolyn]

See, now that is what I would call "spooky".....it's confirmation of the existence of the "walking dead" among us....what it's like to be as if you never were....
Kind regards...

Dear 'nuf,

It has now become my experience that a mortal may die but...they still "live"on and on...

Many calls from investigators of former relative whose remains, still, as of today, lie in the morgue are endless. There are more right hands not knowing what the left is doing than one could ever imagine. I keep learning another fact of the demise that actually I would not like to "imagine." Now I have the "picture" in
my mind of over two months the remains were left undiscovered. Where were the neighbors?

The executors of the "Will finally found" are saying that there is no such authority named in the Will, but they are certainly determined that the $ belongs to them.

So....here is the lesson; there is a government official who is paid well with tax money to work full time settling the estates of strange deaths. The positions is Public Administrator. The very wealthy Masons are going to this guy to get a free settlement of the estate and the remains.

The next of kin, my children, would have been happy to clean up the rental (which is still not cleaned), have the remains cremated, and even have done it for free.

Oh well, good intentions seem to be of less value these days. Free rides are available to even the rich?

Love (unconditional),

Carolyn