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Theology in the Eastern Christian Tradition


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#41 nameless until fused

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 02:02 PM

You didn't mention the SEVEN CARDINAL SINS.

Yes at one time I knew by memory the Venal and Mortal sins

I don't pay much attention anymore.

I do remember spending a longer time than most doing my
penance after Saturday confession ;)

So even after a long time at "penance", you still forgot the sin? An interesting evolution in "psychology" with regards to the universal thirst for justice that unites, spiritually, everyone across the globe - the whole "sacrament" of confession and penance. Not sure it's "religious" progress to believe you are ENTITLED to forgiveness... ;)


The last Catholic Priest I dealt with[actually last 2]

kinda 'winked' at the whole dogma/ritual thing and just
helped all they could with an open heart and spirit.

I was stunned at first but grateful for the surprise.

Those 2 Priest made a significant difference in my Spiritual progress
at the time.

I remember being all shook up at my "confirmation" ceremony because I ended up sitting smack dab in the middle of the church at the end of the pew - perfect position for the wandering bishop to pick upon to "test". I studiously avoided eye contact and while twirling my bouquet ribbon and praying to not be picked by the bishop - sure enough - he stops wandering right next to me and grabs eye contact with me and asks, "My child, who is God?". ;) I was so relieved that he asked me the only question to which I had the "correct" answer to! (I had lost interest in memorizing all the other 100+ questions and answers we should know in preparation for our "confirmation"). I confidently answered, "God is love." I guess the bishop was hoping I'd give that "correct" answer, also, because the rest of his prepared teaching was completely devoted to that aspect of God's personality. He never asked another question of any of us! Seems that's all we needed to know! Whew :P

I, too, remember the MERCY that the nuns and priests always had at the ready for a child who showed up looking for help with a "spiritual" crisis. I don't recall, ever, in all those 12 years of a Catholic education, an instance where the words in the bible were used against us - never. I thank God now that at least in my salad years (as the vernacular puts it) there were no bible-thumping authoritarians. There was mercy and the freedom to CHOOSE to be of SPIRITUAL service to each other. In the final analysis, even after taking into consideration everything in the UPapers about TAs and angels and midwayers and the pentecostal bestowed "spirit" - if a person finds no happiness or truth in the un-sought-for experience of self-forgetful service, then a loving God can't be found.

There is nothing in my background that is comfortable with authoritarian holy book-thumping cults, prophet-centric cults, CIA sponsored "voices in head" experiments, etc etc. However imperfect and partial the "living faith" OF Jesus that was passed along to me is, there seems to have been enough truth in it all to get me here. Might also help to explain why I BELIEVE so strongly in the self-forgetful service possible in sharing knowledge about The Urantia Book - there's bound to be thousands of people like me who won't be getting "stuck" on the "religion" aspects of the UB....especially won't we be getting stuck arguing about the "revelations" :P


PHIL


PS;

I still can't get the Immaculate conception and Virgin Birth right


Another long personal story - the day I stood up on my soapbox in "religion" class at Age 14, and gave the "Brother" a dressing-down, so to speak, about how stupid all those stories ARE about "virginity" and how they do NOTHING to help out the REAL lives of REAL women...when I look back on that episode (still comes up as one of those memorable 'NUF moments of "personality" that other people talk about - "....you never know what she's going to do...") I admire even more the "liberal" teachers at that Catholic prep school. The "Brother" took a moment and decided to explain my soap-box "virgin" speech by teaching us about Quakers and how they attend church together and sometimes leave without anyone having been "moved by the spirit" to speak. LOL The "Brother" and my favorite nun ended up running away together to get married and live happily ever after - cool people - one and all. I LOVED my school years up through high school graduation and remain friends with a lot of the people from those years - something to be said for a common culture that you all can SAFETLY participate in as an individual....



#42 nameless until fused

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 02:16 PM

How these views relate to the Uranita Book is also of interest. While the story of the fall of Adam, and the resulting fallen state of mankind exists in both Eastern and Western traditions, they view this mythological event differently, with different emphasis. And of course, the Urantia Book tells us there was no fall at all, but mankind had been evolving gradually from a more primitive state.

Agreed, no "fall" per se - just outright rebellion and defaults on responsibility which UB "reveals". And there is quite a bit of discussion and info in the UB on how "ages" go by where there was no gradual evolving at all (dark ages where the "light" was in danger of going out - or in today's vernacular "stuck on stupid") - so it is a reality that there is retrogressive movement as well as progressive - hence the written comments and opinions of people who lived in times where the retrogressive movement was in charge. In their short lives of limited access to libraries and other communication with "history", all they experienced was a "falling"....[/quote]

#43 Guest_Robert Reno_*

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Posted 06 September 2008 - 09:28 PM

Agreed, no "fall" per se - just outright rebellion and defaults on responsibility which UB "reveals". And there is quite a bit of discussion and info in the UB on how "ages" go by where there was no gradual evolving at all (dark ages where the "light" was in danger of going out - or in today's vernacular "stuck on stupid") - so it is a reality that there is retrogressive movement as well as progressive - hence the written comments and opinions of people who lived in times where the retrogressive movement was in charge. In their short lives of limited access to libraries and other communication with "history", all they experienced was a "falling"....


The idea of mankind falling from some more perfect state is almost universal in the folklore of the various cultures. While living and studying Korean and Korean Buddhism for five years in Korea I learned about the ancient legend of Hwan-in and his son Tangun, the mythical first king who was sent from the heavenly court of his divine Father with 3,000 helpers to the earth to teach human beings the art of civilization. This was a kind of "origins" myth that goes back almost 5,000 years in Korean culture.

During the Kamakura period in Japan their civilization descended into a state of feudalism, and war and famine was rampant. To explain this state of the world they invented the idea that they were passing through the age of mappo, which was interpreted to be the time of declining ability of human beings to practice spiritual truth (i.e., the dharma path of discipline), until they were in the last age of spiritual decadence, hence the age of mappo. The idea of the fall of Adam and Eve too has its origin at a specific point in the history of humankind.

These various origin myths bring the following statement to life ;-)

Partial, incomplete, and evolving intellects would be helpless in the master universe, would be unable to form the first rational thought pattern, were it not for the innate ability of all mind, high or low, to form a universe frame in which to think. If mind cannot fathom conclusions, if it cannot penetrate to true origins, then will such mind unfailingly postulate conclusions and invent origins that it may have a means of logical thought within the frame of these mind-created postulates. And while such universe frames for creature thought are indispensable to rational intellectual operations, they are, without exception, erroneous to a greater or lesser degree. (1260.2)


Now, when I view the various nuanced stories of the fall in historical context, and note the nuanced differences between the Eastern Orthodox and Western Christian interpretations of this narrative, I begin to more fully appreciate the meaning of the statement, "it has appeared to be wise from time to time to provide instruction in cosmology":

Because your world is generally ignorant of origins, even of physical origins, it has appeared to be wise from time to time to provide instruction in cosmology. And always has this made trouble for the future. The laws of revelation hamper us greatly by their proscription of the impartation of unearned or premature knowledge. Any cosmology presented as a part of revealed religion is destined to be outgrown in a very short time. Accordingly, future students of such a revelation are tempted to discard any element of genuine religious truth it may contain because they discover errors on the face of the associated cosmologies therein presented. (1109.2)


I think humankind is now passing through an age when it is struggling to invent a new story, a new universe frame from within which to think and dream:

When we compare the way in which man has in fact, so far as we know, appeared on this earthly scene, emerging out of apedom with only dim rudimentary notions of his Creator, with the epistemological conditions presupposed by man’s status as a free and responsible agent in relation to his Maker, we find a remarkable agreement between them. For human freedom vis-à-vis God presupposes an initial separateness and consequent degree of independence on man’s part. In creating finite persons to love and be loved by Him God must endow them with a certain relative autonomy over against Himself. But how can a finite creature, dependent upon the infinite Creator for its very existence and for every power and quality of its being, posses any significant autonomy in relation to that Creator? The only way we can conceive is that suggested by our actual situation. God must set man at a distance from Himself, from which he can then voluntarily come to know God. But how can anything be set at a distance from One who is infinite and omnipotent? Clearly spatial distance means nothing in this case. The kind of distance between God and man that would make room for a degree of human autonomy is epistemic distance. In other words, the reality and presence of God must not be borne in upon men in the coercive way in which their natural environment forces itself upon their attention. The world must be to man, to some extent at least, etsi deus non daretur, 'as if there were no God'. God must be a hidden deity, veiled by His creation. He must be knowable, but only by a mode of knowledge that involves a free personal response on man's part, this response consisting in an uncompelled interpretative activity whereby we experience the world mediating the divine presence. Such a need for a human faith-response will secure for man the only kind of freedom that is possible for him in relation to God, namely cognitive freedom, carrying with it the momentous possibility of being either aware or unaware of his Maker. (Hick 2007: 281)

A human environment in which these conditions are fulfilled may be expected by its apparently atheous character to require religious faith if man is ever to know God and yet also, by its fitness to mediate the divine presence and activity, to be such as to make faith possible. On the one hand, then, we should expect the reality of God to be other than automatically and undeniably evident to us; it will, on the contrary, be possible for our minds to rest in the world itself without passing beyond it to its Maker. But we should also expect the reality of God to become evident to men in so far as they are willing to live as creatures in the presence of an infinitely perfect Being whose very existence sets them under a sovereign claim of worship and obedience. We should expect the world to be such that, given this willingness (which is the volitional element in religious faith), we become able to recognize all around us the signs of a divine presence and activity. Men of faith will then see the heavens as declaring the glory of God and will discern His hand moving amidst the events of human history. Thus the world, as the environment of man's life, will be religiously ambiguous, both veiling God and revealing Him -- veiling Him to ensure man's freedom and revealing Him to men as they rightly exercise that freedom. (Hick 2007: 281-282)

As we thus deduce the basic character of a world in which man can exist as a free and responsible person in the presence of God, have we not found that the description fits the world in which we are living? For we are not set in the direct, unmistakable, divine presence, in which we should be unable to come to God freely, of our own creaturely choice, but instead we are set in a situation in which we may, by our own personal responses, either allow the knowledge of God to dawn upon us, or hold it at bay as a mere intellectual hypothesis.... That is to say, when God summoned man out of the dust of the evolutionary process He did not place him in the immediate consciousness of His own presence but in a situation from which man could, if he would, freely enter into the divine Kingdom and presence. (Hick 2007: 282-283) (Hick, John . Evil and the God of Love. Reissued ed. New York: PALGRAVE MACMILLAN; 2007; c1966 p. 281-283)


What an adventure to weave a wonderful story of the best of Eastern and Western Christianity enlarged and corrected and enlightened by the revelations in the Urantia Book?

Edited by Robert Reno, 07 September 2008 - 12:24 AM.


#44 Nigel Nunn

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 06:33 AM

Dear Rob and adelfo,

What gems you two are digging up! Rob, your reminder about "universe frames in which to think" touches the heart of the matter, the purpose of the fifth epochal revelation: with so many now thinking outside their former boxes, we need a bigger box, a larger universe frame in which to think.

What an adventure to weave a wonderful story of the best of Eastern and Western Christianity enlarged and corrected and enlightened by the revelations in the Urantia Book?

And what an adventure to enhance the impact of the above, by weaving in the echoes of truth found in the maps of other paths, and the discoveries of people on those paths. Consider Buddhists treading that well trod path, past the death of their attachments, then onwards to meet their souls and higher selves. Previously, when returning from such experience (which "lies too deep for words"), they could either say nothing and simply enjoy; or if they tried to share their taste of truth -- this personality assurance -- they had to saddle it's beauty and goodness with insufficient, "4th epochal" frames.

Imagine if they could phrase their [taste of truth] in 5th epochal terms, using a conceptual vocabulary tuned and serviceable for the entire planet, not just those who share the jargon of one culture. Recall how the Urantia papers were tuned by the revelators to be "small enough" to make them accessible to the contact commissioners, yet "big enough" to be useful as a fifth epochal frame.

"It is high time that man had a religious experience so personal and so sublime that it could be realized and expressed only by "feelings that lie too deep for words." [p.1091:8]

People on all paths are having such experience. Lying "too deep for words", we now understand that such experience occurs in the domain of the 1st Source and Center (Personality), mediated by agents of the 2nd Source and Center (Spirit). So our challenge -- that we might share our [taste of truth] -- is to sculpt a response within the domain of the 3rd Source and Center (Mind). Let us, like Shakespeare, try to find the words ;)

Thus the world, as the environment of man's life, will be religiously ambiguous, both veiling God and revealing Him -- veiling Him to ensure man's freedom and revealing Him to men as they rightly exercise that freedom. (Hick 2007: 281-282)

Agondonters require a blank page. This is our moment of opportunity.

thanks again,
Nigel

Edited by Nigel Nunn, 07 September 2008 - 06:36 AM.


#45 Jose Alberto Wonsover

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 11:06 AM

Agondonters require a blank page. This is our moment of opportunity.


Yes It is!! I was reading the post and I remembered this extraordinary quote:

All Urantia is waiting for the proclamation of the ennobling message of Michael, unencumbered by the accumulated doctrines and dogmas of nineteen centuries of contact with the religions of evolutionary origin. The hour is striking for presenting to Buddhism, to Christianity, to Hinduism, even to the peoples of all faiths, not the gospel about Jesus, but the living, spiritual reality of the gospel of Jesus.page 1041

Is our time, is our moment... This opportunity to share an extraordinary and marvellous message of service and Love. All Urantia is waiting.

Jose Alberto Wonsover

Edited by Jose Alberto Wonsover, 07 September 2008 - 11:18 AM.


#46 nameless until fused

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 01:20 PM

Imagine if they could phrase their [taste of truth] in 5th epochal terms, using a conceptual vocabulary tuned and serviceable for the entire planet, not just those who share the jargon of one culture. Recall how the Urantia papers were tuned by the revelators to be "small enough" to make them accessible to the contact commissioners, yet "big enough" to be useful as a fifth epochal frame.



I realize you are specifically not addressing me in this post, but thanks to the recent Olympic Games held in China, there was widely disseminated information about their culture's use of symbols to communicate. It seems to me that they could create a symbol to denote "an experience that is too deep for words". For that matter, so could we.

And maybe even universal math symbols could work...?

#47 nameless until fused

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 01:59 PM

Yes It is!! I was reading the post and I remembered this extraordinary quote:

All Urantia is waiting for the proclamation of the ennobling message of Michael, unencumbered by the accumulated doctrines and dogmas of nineteen centuries of contact with the religions of evolutionary origin. The hour is striking for presenting to Buddhism, to Christianity, to Hinduism, even to the peoples of all faiths, not the gospel about Jesus, but the living, spiritual reality of the gospel of Jesus.page 1041

Is our time, is our moment... This opportunity to share an extraordinary and marvellous message of service and Love. All Urantia is waiting.

Jose Alberto Wonsover


Hi Jose,

You might be able to appreciate this train of thought as an artist....

I believe all we (UB readers) were asked to do was to disseminate the book. Since it is a given that an imperfect, finite universe is dependent on room for constant improvement and adjustment, I am happy to witness that "revelators" are consistent in the way they approach making improvements. They aren't burdening any individual this time around with being the PERFECT vehicle for disseminating the 5th epocal revelation - instead we have a carefully considered collaboration of sincere beings compiled into a book that will spring seeds of cosmic citizenship without follow-up intervention required on our part. It's a NORMAL approach to mind, language, etc. - one person reading information. I "see" myself playing the bespeckled librarian going "Shhhhh!" to the person making fidgeting noises that disturb the silence of concentration ;)

Now all that being said, instead of waiting for the artist to die before the real value of their art work is assigned, we could accept the cosmic value of each reader TODAY.

Meaning, that anytime we are distracted into considering that the quotes from centuries-past philosophers and religionists have more "art" value than the works of the living artist of TODAY, we are not providing a culture of "opportunity" for anyone to rediscover the religion OF Jesus with the aid of this book - TUB.

Obviously, the fact that it's a BOOK and not a person this time around is NEW and what is considered to be an improvement, a NEW method, in the dissemination of an epochal revelation. ;)

We might as well get used to being in "school" for a couple of million years ;) Shhhh!

Kind regards,
'nuf

Edited by nameless until fused, 07 September 2008 - 02:01 PM.


#48 Carolyn

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 03:05 PM

Been reading this thread since adlefo started it.

Now all that being said, instead of waiting for the artist to die before the real value of their art work is assigned, we could accept the cosmic value of each reader TODAY.

Meaning, that anytime we are distracted into considering that the quotes from centuries-past philosophers and religionists have more "art" value than the works of the living artist of TODAY, we are not providing a culture of "opportunity" for anyone to rediscover the religion OF Jesus with the aid of this book - TUB.

Obviously, the fact that it's a BOOK and not a person this time around is NEW and what is considered to be an improvement, a NEW method, in the dissemination of an epochal revelation. ;)


This makes more sense to me than all other six pages. IMO There is no substitute for the experience of rediscovery of the religion OF Jesus by any other method than opening TUB and getting "down to it." It is a nice intellectual exercise of comparing and contrasting all the philosophies and religions (East or West) but, after all, simply an intellectual exercise. To access the "spiritual" meat of TODAY by sifting through the dust of antiquity seems senseless when one has already a meal set before them that is beautiful, good, and true ready to eat (and read).

I am grateful that FER is a book that CAN be disseminated. How else, in today's climate of religious thinking, could it be done? Individual experience being the only way that each of us can find "The Way." We will find a bit here and a bite there in the dusty books written by men but in UB there is light that iluminates the whole and makes clear without words written by a man or woman. ;)

Complicating "the simple" is not always more valuable than "the simple" itself. IMO:)

Happy days,

Carolyn
"Knowledge is possessed only by sharing; it is safeguarded by wisdom and socialized by love."

#49 nameless until fused

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 03:14 PM

Been reading this thread since adlefo started it.



This makes more sense to me than all other six pages. IMO There is no substitute for the experience of rediscovery of the religion OF Jesus by any other method than opening TUB and getting "down to it." It is a nice intellectual exercise of comparing and contrasting all the philosophies and religions (East or West) but, after all, simply an intellectual exercise. To access the "spiritual" meat of TODAY by sifting through the dust of antiquity seems senseless when one has already a meal set before them that is beautiful, good, and true ready to eat (and read).

I am grateful that FER is a book that CAN be disseminated. How else, in today's climate of religious thinking, could it be done? Individual experience being the only way that each of us can find "The Way." We will find a bit here and a bite there in the dusty books written by men but in UB there is light that iluminates the whole and makes clear without words written by a man or woman. ;)

Complicating "the simple" is not always more valuable than "the simple" itself. IMO:)

Happy days,

Carolyn



It wasn't easy to get to what makes sense about why it's a book - a lot of shushing - Shhhh! - seems to have gotten involved in getting here to where some of us can agree on something "simple"!!!

Thanks for the "atta boy" addition to this thread, Carolyn.

And while we're in agreement about the value of the book itself to a personal journey in faith and God-seeking, I think this is as good of a place as any to mention that the information about Father Fragments, Mystery Monitors, Thought Adjusters, etc etc - all those names referring to the same FACT of being indwelt by a piece of God himself because that is how God stays in direct contact with every personality in a mind-boggling 7 superuniverse scale of number of personalities - is a revelation. We're not going to find that info in anything written in the past....it's NEW info to us all.

Therefore, being as how percentage-wise so few people have had the opportunity to read TUB by themselves, I doubt we should be off and running with presumptions about how someone else can make contact with THEIR OWN adjuster. No one can claim being an "expert" at it except for Jesus.

Edited by nameless until fused, 07 September 2008 - 03:47 PM.


#50 Nigel Nunn

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Posted 07 September 2008 - 04:28 PM

Imagine if they could phrase their [taste of truth] in 5th epochal terms, using a conceptual vocabulary tuned and serviceable for the entire planet, not just those who share the jargon of one culture. Recall how the Urantia papers were tuned by the revelators to be "small enough" to make them accessible to the contact commissioners, yet "big enough" to be useful as a fifth epochal frame.


thanks to the recent Olympic Games held in China, there was widely disseminated information about their culture's use of symbols to communicate. It seems to me that they could create a symbol to denote "an experience that is too deep for words". For that matter, so could we.

Sorry for not speaking plainly enough. I meant to say that the Urantia papers are beautifully tuned to serve in this way;
they already provide the words, and the necessary conceptual frame, for the job. The hard work has been done for us!

Nigel

#51 Bill Martin

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 10:31 AM

Dear Sisters and Brothers,

It is incumbent upon our desire to provide service to the sincere religionists, lovers of truth and morally progressive souls searching to find the Father, to become not only familiar, but proficient in the language and truths of their religions that we might then know which truths to choose to illuminate to best impart advanced revelation. Many faithers still live in the Third Epoch and Fourth Epoch and will not (and can not) accept many of the enlightened truths we employ daily to sort and censor the meaning and values of daily life. The Urantia Book says:

It is the mission of revelation to sort and censor the successive religions of evolution. But if revelation is to exalt and upstep the religions of evolution, then must such divine visitations portray teachings which are not too far removed from the thought and reactions of the age in which they are presented. Thus must and does revelation always keep in touch with evolution. Always must the religion of revelation be limited by man's capacity of receptivity. 1007-1

It is wise to always teach to the level of understanding, offer something Good, Beautiful and True, but something a person can make a part of their life and use.

In my travels to the lands of Buddha i speak (and think) as a Buddhist and after determining a religioists faith I endeavor to use the conceptual language they are most comfortable with and often let them teach me and impart my little truths through the questions I ask.

This is why i feel it is important to know the foundations of religious experience.



Bill M.


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#52 nameless until fused

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 06:28 PM

This is why i feel it is important to know the foundations of religious experience.



Bill M.


Bill m.


Hiya Bill,

And the author know as "Melchizedek" agrees with you! He authored Papers 99 - 103 on the very topic.

We could discuss those Papers....if not in this thread which has a different focus, then start another? Or has this been discussed already in another thread on this site that you could point me to - the foundation of religious experience?

#53 Jose Alberto Wonsover

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Posted 12 September 2008 - 01:26 PM

Hi NUF,

I appreciate this like human being. And, thought, the better dissemination is our own life. To reflect the fruits of spirit... And that's it!.

Perhaps, I think we could have another definition to “art”…
I like so much this quote:

Philosophy you somewhat grasp, and divinity you comprehend in worship, social service, and personal spiritual experience, but the pursuit of beauty — cosmology — you all too often limit to the study of man's crude artistic endeavors. Beauty, art, is largely a matter of the unification of contrasts. Variety is essential to the concept of beauty. The supreme beauty, the height of finite art, is the drama of the unification of the vastness of the cosmic extremes of Creator and creature. Man finding God and God finding man — the creature becoming perfect as is the Creator — that is the supernal achievement of the supremely beautiful, the attainment of the apex of cosmic art. 646:4

For me this is the real art to get this unification of contrasts. If you are an artist in that you are an artist in everything that you do. Even in the simple things of life. In our life…. Yes, we have this and others opportunities to express the message of The Urantia Book... Not all of course, because there are cosmology, and science and history and many interesting spiritual things for our personal growth, but we can express the fruits of spirit. We can express that. We can do it. I visualize that expression not in a library only rather in my whole life, with my friends, with my family, anywhere and anytime. Sometimes is difficult… There are so many obstacles in the way…. But we can try, and we have the beautiful presence of Spirit of Truth, bring us everyday the necessary company... Then life become an exciting and wonderful experience!... with meaniful... with joy. I love this quote:

You may preach a religion about Jesus, but, perforce, you must live the religion of Jesus. 2091:10

For me, it could attract a some people and they ask about how to obtain that?. And one day I can share and said where I obtain that.

I listened long time ago a beautiful and simple story:

A son and his father were walking on the mountains. Suddenly,
his son falls, hurts himself and screams: "AAAhhhhhhhhhhh!!!"
To his surprise, he hears the voice repeating,
somewhere in the mountain: "AAAhhhhhhhhhhh!!!"
Curious, he yells: "Who are you?"
He receives the answer: "Who are you?"
Angered at the response, he screams: "Coward!"
He receives the answer: "Coward!"
He looks to his father and asks: "What's going on?"
The father smiles and says: "My son, pay attention."
And then he screams to the mountain: "I admire you!"
The voice answers: "I admire you!"
Again the man screams: "You are a champion!"
The voice answers: "You are a champion!"
Finally the father screams: "I love you!"
The voice answers: "I love you!"
The boy is surprised, but does not understand.
Then the father explains: "People call this ECHO, but really this is
LIFE. It gives you back everything you say or do. Our life is simply a
reflection of our actions.

Thus is life! ;) … It's not only to be in a place... is to act. Our acts will be determinate our destiny for a better human beings, for a better family, a better comunity, even a better world.


Hi Jose,

You might be able to appreciate this train of thought as an artist....

I believe all we (UB readers) were asked to do was to disseminate the book. Since it is a given that an imperfect, finite universe is dependent on room for constant improvement and adjustment, I am happy to witness that "revelators" are consistent in the way they approach making improvements. They aren't burdening any individual this time around with being the PERFECT vehicle for disseminating the 5th epocal revelation - instead we have a carefully considered collaboration of sincere beings compiled into a book that will spring seeds of cosmic citizenship without follow-up intervention required on our part. It's a NORMAL approach to mind, language, etc. - one person reading information. I "see" myself playing the bespeckled librarian going "Shhhhh!" to the person making fidgeting noises that disturb the silence of concentration ;)

Now all that being said, instead of waiting for the artist to die before the real value of their art work is assigned, we could accept the cosmic value of each reader TODAY.

Meaning, that anytime we are distracted into considering that the quotes from centuries-past philosophers and religionists have more "art" value than the works of the living artist of TODAY, we are not providing a culture of "opportunity" for anyone to rediscover the religion OF Jesus with the aid of this book - TUB.

Obviously, the fact that it's a BOOK and not a person this time around is NEW and what is considered to be an improvement, a NEW method, in the dissemination of an epochal revelation. :P

We might as well get used to being in "school" for a couple of million years ;) Shhhh!

Kind regards,
'nuf


Edited by Jose Alberto Wonsover, 14 September 2008 - 11:14 AM.


#54 Howard509

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 10:03 AM

This article is on the very topic of this thread:

http://urantia-book....ity_urantia.htm

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#55 Bonita

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 11:19 AM

My mother's side of the family is Russian Orthodox. I grew up with it.

Have you read the Philokalia? It has some interesting insight . . . and some nonsense too, but a good read. Here's a good quote from Nikitas Stithatos, On the Inner Nature of Things, no.33:

God looks not at the outward form of what we say or do, but at the disposition of our soul and the purpose for which we perform a visible action or express a thought. In the same way those of greater understanding than others look rather to the inward meaning of word and the intention of actions, and unfalteringly assess them according. Man looks at the outward form, but God looks on the heart.



#56 Absonite

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 03:35 PM

Theosis.

Now that, to me, is a very beautiful alternate word for Fusion.

#57 Howard509

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:38 PM

My father's side of the family is Greek Orthodox and I attended an Orthodox church for a number of years. I might come back to it again, but this time I will have the insights of the Urantia Book, so I won't get caught up into all the debates about which doctrine is "right" or not or which church is the "true church." You see, the word "Orthodox" has two meanings, "right belief" and "right worship." I would rather focus on the second meaning because, last time around, I was so focused on judging others' doctrinal purity that I lost sight of what attracted me to Orthodoxy in the first place.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#58 Howard509

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 12:32 PM

Interestingly, the Urantia Book says that Eastern Christianity more closely preserved the teachings of Jesus than Western Christianity. This is reflected in several key doctrines. The Urantia Book's claim that the original teachings of Jesus in the East were overtaken by the rise of Islam could be a reference to the fall of Constantinople at the hands of the Ottoman Turks.

The Urantia Book's teaching on the path of salvation as progressively striving to live the will of God is more in line with the Eastern Orthodox doctrine of theosis than with the Augustinian view of passively receiving the Father's grace. Like the Urantia Book, Eastern Orthodoxy has never taught the doctrine of original sin, that sin is somehow passed down by sexual reproduction. Like the Urantia Book, Eastern Orthodoxy doesn't view sin as a stain on the soul but rather as missing the mark of God's perfection. Instead of focusing on the guilt of breaking a rule, the emphasis is on the goal of becoming more than what we are. Instead of confessing one's sin for the priest with the priest having the authority to forgive sin, Orthodoxy understands confession as the priest witnessing the individual's confession to Christ for the purpose of the priest to provide counseling for one's spiritual life.

The Urantia Book's teaching about the immanence of God in nature and there being a fragment of the divine in every individual is more in line with the Orthodox teaching than the West's insistence on the radical transcendence of God. The Urantia Book's teaching of the Mother Spirit as the feminine aspect of God is similar to the Eastern Orthodox concept of Sophia. Like Eastern Orthodoxy, the Urantia Book teaches that the Father is the ultimate source of all divinity and that the Father is known to imperfect humans through the Creator Son.

Jesus' practice of stillness meditation in the Urantia Book is similar to the Eastern Orthodox practice of hesychasm. The Urantia Book's emphasis on religious faith as an outgrowth of personal experience rather than mentally accepting a list of doctrines is similar to the Orthodox understanding of contemplation as a surer source of spiritual knowledge than logical speculation.

Instead of engaging in the West's attempt to logically define the Eucharist through Aristotelian concepts like transubstantiation, Eastern Orthodox Christians, like the Urantia Book, have simply accepted the presence of Christ in the Eucharist and left it at that.

Like the Urantia Book, Eastern Orthodoxy has never accepted the Anselmian doctrine of penal substitution, that Jesus died to appease the wrath of an angry God. Like the Urantia Book, Eastern Christianity rejects the Western understanding of hell, instead teaching that that both the elect and the lost enter the presence of God after death, that the elect experience this presence as light and rest, while the lost experience it as darkness and torment.

These and other similarities between the Urantia Book and Eastern Christianity are very remarkable for a book that was allegedly channeled by an Adventist splinter group. That Protestant fundamentalists condemn the Urantia Book as "gnostic" and "new age" is interesting considering that they either make the same claims against traditional Orthodox theology or they are too ignorant to know the differences between Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.

Edited by Howard509, 19 February 2013 - 02:26 PM.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#59 Bonita

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:43 PM

Interestingly, the Urantia Book says that Eastern Christianity more closely preserved the teachings of Jesus than Western Christianity.


Actually, TUB says no such thing. People have made the inference, but there is no such statement in TUB.

195:1.11 The Eastern version of the message of Jesus, notwithstanding that it remained more true to his teachings, continued to follow the uncompromising attitude of Abner. It never progressed as did the Hellenized version and was eventually lost in the Islamic movement.

What this quote is saying is that the Eastern version of the gospel at the time of Abner was more true to Jesus' teachings. The reason for this was because Paul and Peter were teaching about Jesus and Abner disagreed with that approach. He preferred to teach the gospel as he understood it. We are also told that Abner's philosophy was more Babylonian (eastern) than what was being taught at Jerusalem and Antioch, and this is probably why it was lost in Islam.

Nevertheless, I agree that there are many features of Eastern Orthodox religion which are less tainted by the mystery religions and paganism. Interestingly though, hell and original sin are eastern ideas originating in Persia with Zoroastrianism.

#60 Howard509

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Posted 19 February 2013 - 04:46 PM

Nevertheless, I agree that there are many features of Eastern Orthodox religion which are less tainted by the mystery religions and paganism. Interestingly though, hell and original sin are eastern ideas originating in Persia with Zoroastrianism.


The Western Christian concepts of hell and original sin have more to do with Dante and Augustine than anything else.

Edited by Howard509, 19 February 2013 - 04:51 PM.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin





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