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#41 Carolyn

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 01:05 PM

Dear Rick and all,

Rick, I will concentrate on all that is Beautiful, Good, and True today. No place for ugly on such a beautiful day on this piece of Urantia.

p. 2096 par. 6

"Art results from man's attempt to escape from the lack of beauty in his material environment; it is a gesture toward the morontia level."


I have question about Christian art over the centuries.

What would Michael or the Ultimate Father think about it? Or is it any part of the journey of personal experience? Is it a gesture towards the morontia level or not?

Love,

Carolyn
"Knowledge is possessed only by sharing; it is safeguarded by wisdom and socialized by love."

#42 Meredith Van Woert

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Posted 08 November 2007 - 08:50 PM

Hello Carolyn,

I don't know what they would think about Christian art over the centuries. Isn't the topic of art an area of your expertise, Carolyn? Some Christian art is very gruesome. Some works are beautiful to behold. Depictions on the frescoes of the Sistine Chapel, for example, stir one's soul, like the music of J.S. Bach. Art evolves over time, as civilizations evolve. A pint can't hold a quart, so we can go only so far toward the morontia level, only as far as we've achieved, and we Urantians are barely at the tadpole stage of morontia-hood in my opinion. Is art progressing toward the morontia level these times, these days?

Good question. I wonder what others think.

Meredith

I have question about Christian art over the centuries.

What would Michael or the Ultimate Father think about it? Or is it any part of the journey of personal experience? Is it a gesture towards the morontia level or not?

Love,

Carolyn



#43 Carolyn

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Posted 09 November 2007 - 12:38 PM

Dear Meredth,

Nice to read you again.

Yes, thank you for remembering. The study of art and the practice of it, is probably a piece of who I am. Expertise can easily lead some to think of one being an expert, which is definitely, in my lifetime, questionable.

But I still find my original question a really big question. What and how is the use of the celestial and the divine in painting, sculpture, or other art forms percieved?

You are correct as to the evolving of Art being connected to the evolving of mortals in their own time and space. Hence the one topic of art for centuries being religious only in the Western world because that was what was allowed by edict from the Christian Religions which ruled over political rulers of the time. Christian Eastern Orthodox and Christian Western Orthodox Art is still being produced today, as is a lot of religious art all across the globe. Some of this new art is very questionable.

For example, many mortals have paintings of Jesus of Nazareth by various artists hanging in their homes or on church walls.

Jesus wanted nothing of his earthly life to remain on earth. He destroyed it all. And yet there are artists who create a Jesus never seen. as well as, statues created of a Jesus never seen. Then, some, use this art work to promote their beliefs. Is that a moral thing to do?

What about Cultural art; is it the same as religious art? Or, what about the art about a certain philosophy?

Secular art is basically not part of my question, as its value still has to pertain to what is beautiful, good, and true. In my own opinion, secular art can not be disconnected from the artist's moral stand. Many liberal art historians would love to argue with me forever on that issue alone. There are great arguments to be won for both sides. But in the end TUB will be the answer that is correct.

Love,

Carolyn
"Knowledge is possessed only by sharing; it is safeguarded by wisdom and socialized by love."

#44 Meredith Van Woert

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Posted 10 November 2007 - 03:35 PM

Hi Carolyn, all,

I propose we take this conversation to a previous discussion thread called "Beauty: What are the boundaries of art?" I think it ties in with our former conversation on a similar topic. We had been talking about sacred and profane art, among other things.

What do you say?

Meredith

Dear Meredth,

Nice to read you again.

Yes, thank you for remembering. The study of art and the practice of it, is probably a piece of who I am. Expertise can easily lead some to think of one being an expert, which is definitely, in my lifetime, questionable.

But I still find my original question a really big question. What and how is the use of the celestial and the divine in painting, sculpture, or other art forms percieved?

You are correct as to the evolving of Art being connected to the evolving of mortals in their own time and space. Hence the one topic of art for centuries being religious only in the Western world because that was what was allowed by edict from the Christian Religions which ruled over political rulers of the time. Christian Eastern Orthodox and Christian Western Orthodox Art is still being produced today, as is a lot of religious art all across the globe. Some of this new art is very questionable.

For example, many mortals have paintings of Jesus of Nazareth by various artists hanging in their homes or on church walls.

Jesus wanted nothing of his earthly life to remain on earth. He destroyed it all. And yet there are artists who create a Jesus never seen. as well as, statues created of a Jesus never seen. Then, some, use this art work to promote their beliefs. Is that a moral thing to do?

What about Cultural art; is it the same as religious art? Or, what about the art about a certain philosophy?

Secular art is basically not part of my question, as its value still has to pertain to what is beautiful, good, and true. In my own opinion, secular art can not be disconnected from the artist's moral stand. Many liberal art historians would love to argue with me forever on that issue alone. There are great arguments to be won for both sides. But in the end TUB will be the answer that is correct.

Love,

Carolyn



#45 Rick Warren

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 04:25 AM

~BeautifulThots~

...Though the apostles failed to comprehend much of his teaching, they did not fail to grasp the significance of the charmingly beautiful life he lived with them....
P.1579 - §2

Quotes of Beauty from The Urantia Book

He revealed a goodness equal to God. He exalted love--truth, beauty, and goodness...



#46 Rick Warren

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Posted 13 November 2007 - 07:06 AM

~BeautifulThots~

...Jesus wished to develop spiritual insight into eternal realities and to stimulate initiative in the originality of living; he concerned himself exclusively with the underlying and permanent spiritual needs of the human race. He revealed a goodness equal to God. He exalted love--truth, beauty, and goodness--as the divine ideal and the eternal reality....
P.1583 - §5

Quotes of Beauty from The Urantia Book

"Do not undertake to show men the beauties of the temple until you have first taken them into the temple."



#47 Rick Warren

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 04:37 AM

~BeautifulThots~

"...intelligent men may enjoy the treasures of art without confusing such material appreciation of beauty with the worship and service of the Father in Paradise, the God of all things and all beings...."
P.1600 - §4

Quotes of Beauty from The Urantia Book

Jesus revealed a God of love, and love is all-embracing of truth, beauty, and goodness.



#48 Carolyn

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Posted 15 November 2007 - 03:07 PM

Dear Meredith, Rick and all,

It would seem that Rick makes beautiful art with his words and how he presents them.

Why not go back to art; when is it sacred or profane? That is a good topic.

In the material world in which we now live; in this time and this space that we are instructed to live well and to reach higher for perfection as our Father was perfect, we must choose what is good, beautiful, and true.
In secular art that is not an easy journey.

In religious art I am not certain that the content of that art which depicts Jesus fits the definition of spiritual values. We are not to create a Jesus model. But in other times of history it was a teaching tool for the unread masses. So is this justified because it was done without malice of purpose or do we really know for certain why it was done?

"The Gates of Paradise" sculpted centuries ago (now there are three panels on display in the US) are technically beautiful. but the message sent by viewing them is not correct. The message is a distortion of the truth of what Jesus taught about the love of our Father and the new way of the kingdom of God. All of the religious art, save that done by UB inspiration, seems profane to me.

What I have found in the community of secular artists is a lifesyle of the majority beyond profane. That is why I turned my work over to the Will of the Father and no longer market in these vile environments.

One of the most amazing pieces of art is that of "The Grand Universe" by artist Gary Tonge 2003. It was used on an invitation to all UB readers to attend The Matthew Project Gathering in 2004. Now that is Beautiful!

I think I may have created more questions than answers. So Meredith, please feel free to jump in here.

Rick, I think we will just keep an orbit around your "Thots" as we discuss art.

With love,

Carolyn
"Knowledge is possessed only by sharing; it is safeguarded by wisdom and socialized by love."

#49 Rick Warren

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 05:18 AM

~BeautifulThots~

"...All things are sacred in the lives of those who are spirit led; that is, subordinated to truth, ennobled by love, dominated by mercy, and restrained by fairness--justice. The spirit which my Father and I shall send into the world is not only the Spirit of Truth but also the spirit of idealistic beauty...."
P.1732 - §4

Quotes of Beauty from The Urantia Book

Truth, beauty, and holiness are powerful and effective aids to true worship.



#50 Rick Warren

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 04:56 AM

~BeautifulThots~

"...Beauty is always triumphant over ugliness in the hearts of all who are illuminated by the love of truth. There is mighty power in the expulsive energy of a new and sincere spiritual affection. And again I say to you, be not overcome by evil but rather overcome evil with good...."
P.1739 - §0

Quotes of Beauty from The Urantia Book

Highest beauty consists in the panorama of the unification of the variations which have been born of pre-existent harmonious reality.



#51 Carolyn

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 12:09 PM

Dear meredith and rick,

UB, p.2096, par. 6 sentence 1

"Art results from man's attempt to escape from the lack of beauty in his material environment; it is a gesture toward the morontia level."

Could it be that art as percieved as personal experience is by definition, if following the above quotation "towards the morontia level", beautiful and not profane? So could we look past the artist, and their lives, and just see the work? A possiblity.

But if the art is in any way in conflict with what is true, good, (and following the gesture towards the morontia level), which would then make it beautiful, we might be required to look at the work as it measures to the definitions herein stated. Then the love of our Father, the brotherhood of man, and the Spirit of Truth must be the final part of the equation for final judgement of the art.


Love to all,

Carolyn
"Knowledge is possessed only by sharing; it is safeguarded by wisdom and socialized by love."

#52 Meredith Van Woert

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 03:52 PM

Hi Carolyn, all,

I would like to talk more about this, but I don't have time right now. What do you think about moving this thread over to "Beauty - What are the boundaries of art?"

You decide, since you are one asking the questions.

Thanks,
Meredith

Dear meredith and rick,

UB, p.2096, par. 6 sentence 1

"Art results from man's attempt to escape from the lack of beauty in his material environment; it is a gesture toward the morontia level."

Could it be that art as percieved as personal experience is by definition, if following the above quotation "towards the morontia level", beautiful and not profane? So could we look past the artist, and their lives, and just see the work? A possiblity.

But if the art is in any way in conflict with what is true, good, (and following the gesture towards the morontia level), which would then make it beautiful, we might be required to look at the work as it measures to the definitions herein stated. Then the love of our Father, the brotherhood of man, and the Spirit of Truth must be the final part of the equation for final judgement of the art.


Love to all,

Carolyn



#53 Meredith Van Woert

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Posted 20 November 2007 - 04:04 PM

This is the answer I previously failed to see, Carolyn.

Dear Meredith, Rick and all,

>snipped<

Rick, I think we will just keep an orbit around your "Thots" as we discuss art.

With love,

Carolyn


Oh, well. Lack of attention to every detail, every jot and every tittle, is just the way I am.

Meredith

#54 Meredith Van Woert

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Posted 21 November 2007 - 11:11 PM

Hi Carolyn, all,

You picked a quote from the second to last page of the book, page 2096. The name of the chapter: "The Faith of Jesus"; the section in that chapter titled "The Supremacy of Religion." I started reading that section. What marvelous reading! Good stuff. I feel nourished and uplifted by it, after a hard day's work.

I don't know that I have any answers to your questions. From the quotation, it says that art is a gesture. I looked up the word gesture in my big dictionary. It says: n. 1. movement or position of the hand, arm, body, head or face that is expressive of an idea, opinion, emotion, etc.; 2. the use of such movements to express thought, emotion, etc.. And it goes on to say more which is similar. Art is a movement toward the morontia level, they say, and we engage in it, as an attempt to escape the lack of beauty in our material environs. It does not say anything about the artist or the life of the artist or the artist's motives.

How can we know if art is in conflict in any way with what is true and good? What would be a standard of measurement by which humans could evaluate art? Would mankind benefit by coming up with such a standard? I do have an opinion, though.

When reading literature, visiting a museum, listening to music and so on, I ask myself: Does it lift me up? Does it nourish me? Did I learn something? Was it wonderful or fascinating? Or did it pound me down? Did it leave me cold?

Maybe art, as an escape, applies, in that it offers to fill a need to something that is lacking. Maybe art that is shocking livens up people's lives - the rush of the shock. I mention this possibility to contrast shocking art with beautiful art.

I'll look up some other quotes on art another time.

All the best,
Meredith


Dear meredith and rick,

UB, p.2096, par. 6 sentence 1

"Art results from man's attempt to escape from the lack of beauty in his material environment; it is a gesture toward the morontia level."

Could it be that art as percieved as personal experience is by definition, if following the above quotation "towards the morontia level", beautiful and not profane? So could we look past the artist, and their lives, and just see the work? A possiblity.

But if the art is in any way in conflict with what is true, good, (and following the gesture towards the morontia level), which would then make it beautiful, we might be required to look at the work as it measures to the definitions herein stated. Then the love of our Father, the brotherhood of man, and the Spirit of Truth must be the final part of the equation for final judgement of the art.


Love to all,

Carolyn



#55 Rick Warren

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 05:50 AM

~BeautifulThots~

"...Let me emphatically state this eternal truth: If you, by truth co-ordination, learn to exemplify in your lives this beautiful wholeness of righteousness, your fellow men will then seek after you that they may gain what you have so acquired. The measure wherewith truth seekers are drawn to you represents the measure of your truth endowment, your righteousness. The extent to which you have to go with your message to the people is, in a way, the measure of your failure to live the whole or righteous life, the truth-co-ordinated life...."
P.1726 - §2

Quotes of Beauty from The Urantia Book

Man rejoices in the goodness of God, Havoners exult in the divine beauty, while you both enjoy the ministry of the liberty of living truth.



#56 Carolyn

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Posted 22 November 2007 - 09:17 AM

Dear Meredith,

Good research. Thank you for making me think.

As always we are in an orbit around the "Beautiful thots" of rick. What would we do without his artistic words?
Be lost. Much love to rick.

Personal answer to Meredith:

Shocking art can take on two possibilties. #1 I am certain you have seen the most profane of this cause and affect art which has no eternal value; thus not worth our thoughts or viewing. It is so debased that it is the ultimate of ugly. #2 A use of color, shape, line, value, texture, or chirachuro that can so shock the senses with beauty that we are stunned. That kind of shock comes from our recognition of something very close to divine.

We once discussed the topic of what kind of art should grace the walls of our homes. This is the most important of issues concerning art as beautiful. true, and good. It isn't about what we see in the galleries or museums, but about that art to which we feel so strongly connected that it impossible to not take it home and keep it for a lifetime to view over and over.

Therein lies the test of a great piece of art as the personal experience that it affords to those of us who believe in this journey towards the Father. Though we have not yet moved to the morontia stage of higher education, we are maybe capturing the essence of it and maybe the UB definition from p. 2096.

Love,

Carolyn
"Knowledge is possessed only by sharing; it is safeguarded by wisdom and socialized by love."

#57 Carolyn

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Posted 23 November 2007 - 04:37 PM

Dear Meredith,

I went to research on the topic of art and its place as TUB would have us see it. Here are the results:

#1, p. 339 paper 30, Personalities of the Grand Universe, Sec 3. The Courtesy Colonies

“2. The Celestial Artisans serve throughout the seven superuniverses. Ascending mortals have their initial contact with these groups in the moronic career of the local universe in connection with which these artisans will be more fully discussed.”

#2, p. 748.. The History of Urantia, Paper 66, Planetary Prince of Urantia, sec. Organization of the One Hundred,

Par. 1,2--“8. The planetary council on art and science. This corps did much to improve the industrial technique of early man and to elevate his concepts of beauty. Their leader was Mek.
Art and science were at a low ebb throughout the world but the rudiments of physics and chemistry were taught the Dalamatians. Pottery was advanced, decorative arts were all improved, and the ideals of human beauty were greatly enhanced. But music made little progress until after the arrival of the violet race.”
Par. 4,5--“Mek did a great deal to advance the culture of the Andonites and to improve the art of the blue man. A blend of the blue man with the Andon stock produced an artistically, gifted type and many of them became master sculptors. They did not work stone or marble, but their works of clay, hardened by baking, adorned the gardens of Dalamatia.
Great progress was made in the home arts, most of which were lost in the long and dark ages of rebellion, never to be rediscovered until modern times.”

p.757---In the Lucifer rebellion Mek and “the council of art and science remained loyal in its entirety“…”Thus were forty out of the one hundred saved. Later to transferred to Jerusem, where they resumed their Paradise journey.”
p. 760 ,The Planetary Rebellion, Par. 2---“Within one thousand years after the rebellion he (Van) had more than three hundred and fifty advanced groups scattered abroad to the world. These outposts of civilization consisted largely of the descendants of the loyal Andonites slightly admixed with the Sangik races, particularly the blue men, and the with the Nodites ( a racial term not cultural- p. 822).
(I assume this meant that “artistically gifted…“master sculptors in clay” carried on by “the hero, Amadon”. ___Carolyn’s opinion)

p. 824, sec 5, par.2, The Garden of Eden: “And though the structures of the Garden were simple, they were very artistic.”...”the landscaping was exquisite.”

p.825, par. 4 “Although the work of embellishment was hardly finished at the time of Adam’s arrival, the place was a gem of botanic beauty; and during the early days of his sojourn in Eden the whole Garden took on new form assumed new proportions of beauty and grandeur. Never before this time nor after has Urantia harbored such a beautiful and replete exhibition of horticulture and agriculture.”

(So art is beauty in many forms, AND in the final analysis the yardstick for which art is beautiful remains the definition from UB, p. 2096 …”it is gesture towards the morontia level.” __Carolyn’s opinion)

With love,

Carolyn
"Knowledge is possessed only by sharing; it is safeguarded by wisdom and socialized by love."

#58 Rick Warren

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Posted 25 November 2007 - 05:09 AM

~BeautifulThots~

...The presence of a friend enhances all beauty and exalts every goodness. By intelligent symbols man is able to quicken and enlarge the appreciative capacities of his friends. One of the crowning glories of human friendship is this power and possibility of the mutual stimulation of the imagination. Great spiritual power is inherent in the consciousness of wholehearted devotion to a common cause, mutual loyalty to a cosmic Deity....
P.1776 - §2

Quotes of Beauty from The Urantia Book

Beauty is always triumphant over ugliness in the hearts of all who are illuminated by the love of truth.






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