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#1 Nelson G

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 09:56 AM

Do you think that space, the exact same space can be occupied by more than one thing at exactly the same time?
Thing meaning: material object/person or supermaterial object/person. No restrictions on size.
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#2 JR Sherrod

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 11:42 AM

I am convinced that Spiritual persons and or constructions can indeed occupy the same space as material things; BUT I get the strangest feeling that spiritual persons do not usually occupy the same space as material persons. I cannot say why that seems strange to me , but it does. I'm going off now to look up some UB references that talk about material things seeming unreal and/or nebulous to spirit persons. TTFN

Edited by JR Sherrod, 04 April 2013 - 11:42 AM.

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#3 Bonita

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:24 PM

Do you think that space, the exact same space can be occupied by more than one thing at exactly the same time?


Well, we know that the same space can be occupied by more than one aspect of time. Isn't that how Jesus performed some of his miracles?

When the water was changed to wine, the celestials assembled the chemical ingredients for wine in the same space as the water and then Jesus abrogated time.

137:4.13 At Cana on this occasion the agents of the Creator made wine just as they do by the ordinary natural processes except that they did it independently of time and with the intervention of superhuman agencies in the matter of the space assembly of the necessary chemical ingredients.

#4 Louis aka loucol

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:27 PM

I seem to remember reading in TUB something about spirit beings not occupying space but existing in relation to space. I'll look for that reference.
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#5 Louis aka loucol

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 12:38 PM

Here it is:

118:3.7 All patterns of reality occupy space on the material levels, but spirit patterns only exist in relation to space; they do not occupy or displacespace, neither do they contain it. But to us the master riddle of space pertains to the pattern of an idea. When we enter the mind domain, we encounter many a puzzle. Does the pattern — the reality — of an idea occupy space? We really do not know, albeit we are sure that an idea pattern does not contain space. But it would hardly be safe to postulate that the immaterial is always nonspatial.
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#6 Alina

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 01:38 PM

Do you think that space, the exact same space can be occupied by more than one thing at exactly the same time?
Thing meaning: material object/person or supermaterial object/person. No restrictions on size.


Hi Nelson and all!

Addition the above answers, do you seems this quote?

(29.7) 1:6.1 Human personality is the time-space image-shadow cast by the divine Creator personality. And no actuality can ever be adequately comprehended by an examination of its shadow. Shadows should be interpreted in terms of the true substance.



I'm thinking about this: "Shadows should be interpreted in terms of the true substance"


So, How do you understand, true substance? :unsure:


Greetings to all!

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#7 Rick Warren

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:38 PM

Well, we know that the same space can be occupied by more than one aspect of time. Isn't that how Jesus performed some of his miracles?


Hmmm...I thought it meant they sped up chemical reaction times, and the 'super human agencies' supplied the chemicals.

#8 Nelson G

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:02 PM

Imagining:
Thinking about material things: I consider the fundamental particle (if there is such a thing). The supposed fundamental particle is thought to be indivisible - Democritus of Abdera visualized it centuries ago in a thought experiment where he had a magic knife that would cut a slice of cheese, possibly many thousands or hundred thousands of times until it could no longer be cut - arriving at the Atom - or what he concieved to be the fundamental indivisable particle.
We now know that within the atom there are at least 17 (possibly more) fundamental indivisible particles, and when viewed as 17 parts in relation to the atom as a whole, there is an overwhelming abundance of space - forget about the forces for now.
Could a fundamental particle occupy the same space and time as another? My imagination says no - that is if there really is a fundamental indivisible particle.
The interesting thing to me is that nature seems to not want us to locate that fundamental indivisible particle of matter so one could ask the question - does anything at all occupy space?
Louis ruled out Sprit patterns that exist in relation to space so what are we left with?
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#9 Alina

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 03:14 PM

Hi! :)

I do not know if I'm wrong, but to me the quote (below) makes me think that in effect, the same space can be occupied by more than one "thing" because do not forget that:

(472.12) 42:4.1 Light, heat, electricity, magnetism,chemism, energy, and matter are — in origin, nature, and destiny — one and the same thing, together with other material realities as yet undiscovered on Urantia.

So, if are together occupy a place in space.
right?


(29.7) 1:6.1 Human personality is the time-space image-shadow cast by the divine Creator personality. And no actuality can ever be adequately comprehended by an examination of its shadow. Shadows should be interpreted in terms of the true substance.


Alina
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#10 Bonita

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 08:24 AM

Hmmm...I thought it meant they sped up chemical reaction times, and the 'super human agencies' supplied the chemicals.


Yeah, they did. But the chemicals (molecules) had to occupy the same space as the water molecules, yet we are not told that those additional molecules displaced any water molecules from the pots. What's the percentage of water in wine? It's about 75-90%. What happened to the rest of the water?

The interesting thing to me is that nature seems to not want us to locate that fundamental indivisible particle of matter so one could ask the question - does anything at all occupy space?


What about Louis' quote? All patterns of reality occupy space but only on material levels.


118:3.7 All patterns of reality occupy space on the material levels, but spirit patterns only exist in relation to space; they do not occupy or displace space, neither do they contain it. But to us the master riddle of space pertains to the pattern of an idea. When we enter the mind domain, we encounter many a puzzle. Does the pattern - the reality - of an idea occupy space? We really do not know, albeit we are sure that an idea pattern does not contain space. But it would hardly be safe to postulate that the immaterial is always nonspatial.

#11 Nelson G

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 12:00 PM

Is it safe enough to assume that our perception of patterns of reality is based on idea patterns of reality?
When we attempt to define a pattern of reality that occupies space what do we come up with? Ideas.
Patterns of reality that occupy space on material levels are more easy to live with if we do not try too hard to define them because when we do it all becomes very uncertain.
Uncertainty manifests itself when we try to observe those pesky building blocks. If we cannot even define the position of a particle, how can we say with certainty that it occupies space?
Life often gives us our greatest gifts brilliantly disguised as our worst nightmares.

#12 Rick Warren

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 01:36 PM

Yeah, they did. But the chemicals (molecules) had to occupy the same space as the water molecules...


They did? Why the same space? Couldn't the molecules have been replaced, and/or transformed into wine the way water is drawn from the ground into the grape and becomes wine by adding certain ingredients in certain quantities for gradual chemical metamorphosis into vino? Would sure like to have tasted that grape wine B)

#13 Bonita

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 01:46 PM

The water pots were filled with 20 gallons of water each. Somehow the water turned to wine by adding chemicals and speeding up time. I'm saying that adding wine chemicals, which are also molecules, to 20 gallons of water molecules would have to displace some of those water molecules unless they took up the same space or were added gradually as water was evaporated. If the water was removed, it should have shown up somewhere else which is not mentioned, therefore I think it must have evaporated. But at some point in time, all the ingredients were together in those pots which were already full before they even started. I'm not saying it's proof of anything, I'm just saying that it's possible that more than one molecule was taking up the same space.

#14 Rick Warren

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Posted 05 April 2013 - 05:01 PM

...therefore I think it must have evaporated...


Was wondering about that too...

#15 Louis aka loucol

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Posted 07 April 2013 - 02:40 PM

Here it is:

118:3.7 All patterns of reality occupy space on the material levels, but spirit patterns only exist in relation to space; they do not occupy or displacespace, neither do they contain it. But to us the master riddle of space pertains to the pattern of an idea. When we enter the mind domain, we encounter many a puzzle. Does the pattern — the reality — of an idea occupy space? We really do not know, albeit we are sure that an idea pattern does not contain space. But it would hardly be safe to postulate that the immaterial is always nonspatial.


Spirit patterns exist in relation to space. Now, mathematically, what relationship to space exists that is not space? The only one that comes to mind is the relationship of orthogonality. This is what mathematicians refer to imaginary axes, i,j and k. Could it be possible that the spiritual world exists in a domain 90 degrees out of phase with our material world? This is the domain that Einstein and Minkowski had placed time. This was an error, IMO, since TUB clearly states that time and space are inseparable and the two must remain in the same domain. Can we place the spirit domain in what we have invented (discovered) as the 'imaginary planes'?
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#16 -Scott-

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 02:49 PM

Spirit patterns exist in relation to space. Now, mathematically, what relationship to space exists that is not space? The only one that comes to mind is the relationship of orthogonality. This is what mathematicians refer to imaginary axes, i,j and k. Could it be possible that the spiritual world exists in a domain 90 degrees out of phase with our material world? This is the domain that Einstein and Minkowski had placed time. This was an error, IMO, since TUB clearly states that time and space are inseparable and the two must remain in the same domain. Can we place the spirit domain in what we have invented (discovered) as the 'imaginary planes'?


There are also a large midway between spirit and matter. I don't think we could place spirit in an imaginary plane in any sense because spirit is substance, its not ether but a real literal substance. A Melchizedeck is a spiritual being, with a spiritual body and spirit consciousness that is very real. The word "material" is kind of a mysterious word IMO because even paradise is "material" there is still matter, and spiritual beings can still walk on matter. Even Paradise beings with spiritual bodies walk on matter.

Edited by -Scott-, 08 April 2013 - 02:51 PM.

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#17 Louis aka loucol

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:20 PM

There are also a large midway between spirit and matter. I don't think we could place spirit in an imaginary plane in any sense because spirit is substance, its not ether but a real literal substance. A Melchizedeck is a spiritual being, with a spiritual body and spirit consciousness that is very real. The word "material" is kind of a mysterious word IMO because even paradise is "material" there is still matter, and spiritual beings can still walk on matter. Even Paradise beings with spiritual bodies walk on matter.


I think you misunderstand my post, Scott. The reference to 'imaginary' is a mathematical one that concerns complex number systems.
Of course spirit is REAL. But the idea is whether spirit can coexist with our reality by a phase shift relationship. I will officially rename the 'imaginary axes' the 'Super Ultra Real Axes' (aka the Super Ultra Real Plane).

Edited by Louis aka loucol, 08 April 2013 - 03:37 PM.

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#18 Alina

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 04:08 PM

I think you misunderstand my post, Scott. The reference to 'imaginary' is a mathematical one that concerns complex number systems.
Of course spirit is REAL. But the idea is whether spirit can coexist with our reality by a phase shift relationship. I will officially rename the 'imaginary axes' the 'Super Ultra Real Axes' (aka the Super Ultra Real Plane).



Hello Louis!

"But the idea is whether spirit can coexist with the reality by a phase shift relationship"

For me, in fact can coexist, and in fact I think exist under different conditions, by a phase shift relationship.

(1164.6) 106:2.3 Spirit, in the last analysis, comes from Paradise through Havona. Energy-matter seemingly evolves in the depths of space and is organized as power by the children of the Infinite Spirit in conjunction with the Creator Sons of God. And all of this is experiential; it is a transaction in time and space involving a wide range of living beings including even Creator divinities and evolutionary creatures. The power mastery of the Creator divinities in the grand universe slowly expands to encompass the evolutionary settling and stabilizing of the time-space creations, and this is the flowering of the experiential power of God the Sevenfold. It encompasses the whole gamut of divinity attainment in time and space from the Adjuster bestowals of the Universal Father to the life bestowals of the Paradise Sons. This is earned power, demonstrated power, experiential power; it stands in contrast to the eternity power, the unfathomable power, the existential power of the Paradise Deities.


Greetings!

Alina
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Edited by Alina, 19 April 2013 - 04:09 PM.


#19 Nelson G

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 01:57 PM

Well - certainly Jesus the man and Michael our Creator Son existed within and occupied the same space and time - wouldn't you say? Possibly shadow and substance combined?

Edited by Nelson G, 23 April 2013 - 05:13 PM.

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#20 Louis aka loucol

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:38 PM

Well - certainly Jesus the man and Michael our Creator Son existed within and occupied the same space and time - wouldn't you say? Possibly shadow and substance combined?


I agree that Jesus and Michael coexisted. But maybe not at the level of the physical. Perhaps at the level of the mind and spirit? We have a TA that coexists with us but at the level of mind. The source is the light projector, Paradise; the spirit reality is the film; the projected image is the physical.

Orthogonal relationships coexist but one is a projection of the other. Projective geometry illustrates this fact. They are not on the same coordinate axis (space) but they are in the same 'room'. This is what I mean about a phase shift.
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