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Pentecost in the Urantia Book


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#1 Howard509

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 02:52 PM

In the Urantia Book, Pentecost appears to be on the same day as Jesus' ascension, even though it was ten days afterward according to Acts of the Apostles. The term "Pentecost" means "fifty days," which would include the forty days between Jesus' resurrection and the ascension and the ten days afterward before the Spirit of Truth arrived. How do we explain this apparent discrepancy?

http://beamsdoorway....ension_pent.htm

http://urantia-book....l6_4/page6.html

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#2 Bonita

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 03:37 PM

There's already a thread on that Howard. I'll try to find it.

That was easy. Took 30 seconds. It's the 18th one down after this one:

http://urantia.invis...entecost-error/

Edited by Bonita, 26 March 2013 - 03:39 PM.


#3 menno

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 04:30 PM

Howard;

Ultimately you may have to wait until you get the chance to speak with the midwayers who wrote Part Four of the UB to get an explanation as to this apparent discrepancy.

Many a learned Urantia Book scholar has failed to solve this mystery..

#4 Howard509

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 06:46 PM

Howard;

Ultimately you may have to wait until you get the chance to speak with the midwayers who wrote Part Four of the UB to get an explanation as to this apparent discrepancy.

Many a learned Urantia Book scholar has failed to solve this mystery..


It could be a reconcilable difficulty rather than a blatant contradiction.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#5 Bonita

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Posted 26 March 2013 - 08:28 PM

Howard, my apologies. I gave you the wrong thread. Here's the same question asked by menno back in 2009:

http://urantia.invis...ntecost__st__20

He wrote:



Posted 10 September 2009 - 02:39 PM
As this Topic deals with " Apparent Contradictions ; How Will Student/Teachers Deal With Questions ? "

I have another mystery for anyone interested in offerring up an answer.

Paper 172 gives the reader an idea of what the date of the Jewish Passover in AD 30 was i.e. Sat April 8th

Paper 193.5.1 - 193.5.5 states that it was May 18th when Jesus disappears from the "observation of the apostles" "....about seven forty five this morning"

Paper 194.1.1 confirms that it was 40 days since Jesus' trial and crucification and resurection. The Math is right; Apr 8th to May 18th is 40 days

Paper 194.1.1 second sentence says " This day happened to be the Jewish festival of Pentecost...."

From Paper 193.5.1 ( "almost half past seven o'clock this Thursday morning, May 18th....")
to Paper 194.1.2 ( "It was about two o'clock when Peter stood up....') May 18th has been literally dissected hour by hour.

Why did the midwayer commission place so much emphasis on the time of day and date ?

From Apr 8th to May 18th is 40 days


What is my point ? The Jewish Pentecost is 7 weeks from the day of Passover.
The word Pentecost comes form the Greek meaning 50.
Look on the current calenders and you'll find that the Christian day of Pentecost comes 50 days after Easter Sunday

In AD 30 the Jewish Pentecost would have occurred on May 27th

In my opinion, in the final analysis it means that the real truth is contained within the essence of the UB.. in the Spirit of information.....rather than that outlined in the finite details.


I answered as follows, and a few more posts I won't bother to reprint:

Hi Menno,

You bring up an excellent point. The Church teaches that Pentecost came ten days after the ascension, but TUB teaches that they occurred on the same day, which leaves one to wonder what happened to those 10 extra days.

I did some research but came up with nothing definitive. Apparently, during the second Temple period the date for the celebration of Shavuot was not a settled fact. The Sadducees and Pharisees differed in their interpretation of Leviticus 23:15-17 and it is unclear which method of was used in 30AD, but historians say that the Pharisees dominated thus allowing Shavuot to occur on any day of the week rather than on the Sabbath. May 18th was a Thursday, I believe. An interesting site to read on the topic is: http://www.abcog.org/shavuot.htm

A few other things of note. One source I read stated that Shavuot, in the first Century, was always celebrated in the middle of the third month, Sivan, Nisan being the first month and Pesach always being celebrated in the middle of the first month. Both festivals were apparently timed to the equinoxes. The Jewish months are not the same as the Gregorian months. The Jews in 30D followed several different calendars, solar, lunar and a combination. Our current Gregorian calendar was instituted in 1582 by Pope Gregory XIII in order to correct the Julian calendar which had resulted in a discrepancy of 10 days. The Pope decreed 10 days be dropped from the calendar changing Oct. 4, 1582 instantly to Oct. 15, 1582.

None of this seems to have much bearing on the situation at hand, however. 50 days is 50 days. It was only 40 days from the resurrection to the ascension and TUB says Pentecost came on the 40th day. I could understand this if TUB had said a day IN Pentecost, because the festival lasted more than one day. But TUB says it was day of Pentecost. However, later it says that "Pentecost was the great festival of baptism, the time for fellowshipping the proselytes of the gate," (p2060) which makes me think that these baptisms could have taken place prior to the actual day of Pentecost. The proselytes, by law, needed to be baptized and purified prior to being allowed to take part in the actual festival. Did this happen ten days before? I don't know; none of it makes much sense.

No matter how you look at it, the resurrection happened the day after Pesach. The day after the first Sabbath in Pesach is the Day of the First Fruits, which marks the beginning of the Counting of the Omar for 50 days. In 30 AD, Pesach fell on the Sabbath, so Sunday, April 9th was not only the day of the resurrection, but it was also the Day of the First Fruits. (Jesus was called "the Firstfruits of those that rise from the dead". I Corinthians 15:20) The 50 days, or 7 weeks, would have been counted from April 9th, putting it on May 28th.

Too bad we can't have "do-overs" with the revelators. I would definitely like an answer to your question menno.

P.S. Another interesting little factoid. The Jews believed that Pentecost was the day that Moses received the Torah and God visited the Israelites with thunder and wind making his covenant with them. The people were able to hear the voice of God on this day. Many believed that this covenant was renewed on Pentecost with God visiting and speaking to his chosen people on that feast day. Jesus' spirit came on Pentecost with great power making a new covenant with all people, filling them with his spirit according to their ability to receive. There were plenty of people who believed they heard the voice of God on that day.



#6 Howard509

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 12:09 PM

William S Sadler provided perhaps the most obvious explanation for this apparent contradiction:

Now as to the bestowal of the Spirit of Truth -- the possible discrepancy between the end of one Paper and the beginning of another we all noted it one time and discussed it further when the Book was going to press. You should remember that the midwayers prepared a narrative that was many times larger than was finally given us as Part IV of the Urantia Book. It may be that in deletion some difficulties were encountered. Our understanding is that the prayer meeting which Peter conducts at the close of one Paper is not the same as that at the opening of the next Paper. The one ended at the Day of ascension, the other opened up the Day of Pentecost.


This raises the interesting question of what happened to all this deleted material. It's similar to the Gospel of John's statement that if all the life and teachings of Jesus were put in print, the books would fill the whole world.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#7 menno

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 01:12 PM

Howard;

Dr. William Sadler's explanation doesn't really explain it.

See Paper 194:1.1 "The apostles had been in hiding for forty days. This day happened to be the Jewish festival of Pentecost......."

If there was a missing section between the end of paper 193 and the beginning of paper 194 , then this opening statement of the second paragraph of 194 rules out any missing piece, and in fact ties together 193 and 194.

Menno

Edited by menno, 28 March 2013 - 01:15 PM.


#8 menno

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 03:37 PM

Howard;

After you have finished wrestling with this Pentecost mystery; you may want to have a look at the "Last Supper" mystery.

In the original first printing Urantia Book 1955 version Paper 179:5.9 "When Jesus had thus established the supper of remembrance, he said to the twelve...."

In later printings of the Urantia Book. you can find that the word twelve was replaced with "apostles"

currently if you look at the "Online versions of the UB you will find:

UB Foundation Online says "eleven"

the Truthbook version says "apostles"

One of the UB Fellowship versions says "eleven"

And the other UB Fellowship version says "twelve"

Why did this come about ? all of these different attempts at changing this one word. ?

Well if you read the entire paper 179 "The Last Supper" you will find that part way through the supper Judas left the room after a few words from Jesus.
So, then we come to the last paragraph of this paper and we find in the original printing the reference made to "twelve" which was spotted by some eagle-eyed individuals, one of them being Rev. Benjamin Adams, who brought it to the attention of Dr. Sadler who changed the word twelve to apostles in the second printing.

Questions: Was the word "twelve" contained within the original manuscript delivered to the Contact Commission in 1935 ? If so, Why ?
By the mere fact that Dr. Sadler changed it in the second printing, gives one the impression that it was a clerical error along the way.

How come currently there are so many versions? All the way from the original "twelve", to the revised "apostles"...to the "eleven" ?

And how come the UB Fellowship has two versions eleven and twelve ?

#9 Howard509

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:20 PM

Howard;

After you have finished wrestling with this Pentecost mystery; you may want to have a look at the "Last Supper" mystery.

In the original first printing Urantia Book 1955 version Paper 179:5.9 "When Jesus had thus established the supper of remembrance, he said to the twelve...."

In later printings of the Urantia Book. you can find that the word twelve was replaced with "apostles"

currently if you look at the "Online versions of the UB you will find:

UB Foundation Online says "eleven"

the Truthbook version says "apostles"

One of the UB Fellowship versions says "eleven"

And the other UB Fellowship version says "twelve"

Why did this come about ? all of these different attempts at changing this one word. ?

Well if you read the entire paper 179 "The Last Supper" you will find that part way through the supper Judas left the room after a few words from Jesus.
So, then we come to the last paragraph of this paper and we find in the original printing the reference made to "twelve" which was spotted by some eagle-eyed individuals, one of them being Rev. Benjamin Adams, who brought it to the attention of Dr. Sadler who changed the word twelve to apostles in the second printing.

Questions: Was the word "twelve" contained within the original manuscript delivered to the Contact Commission in 1935 ? If so, Why ?
By the mere fact that Dr. Sadler changed it in the second printing, gives one the impression that it was a clerical error along the way.

How come currently there are so many versions? All the way from the original "twelve", to the revised "apostles"...to the "eleven" ?

And how come the UB Fellowship has two versions eleven and twelve ?


1 Corinthians 15, the oldest account of Jesus' resurrection, refers to the apostles as "the twelve," even after Judas had committed suicide. "The twelve" had always been a general term for the apostles, even in the absence of Judas.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#10 Howard509

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 04:23 PM

See Paper 194:1.1 "The apostles had been in hiding for forty days. This day happened to be the Jewish festival of Pentecost......."


Were the apostles in hiding between the ascension and the day of Pentecost?

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#11 menno

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 06:05 PM

Howard;

here is the answer to both of your most recent posts above:

Last line of Paper 193 (193:6.6)
"Just about noon the apostles returned to their brethren in the upper chamber and announced that Matthias has been chosen as the new apostle.And then Peter called all of the believers to engage in prayer, prayer that they might be prepared to receive the gift of the spirit which the Master had promised to send.

Note: here it is explained as to when the new replacement apostle arrived to bring the total back up to twelve. (this occurred 40 days after Judas left the twelve and before the writer of 1st Corinthians chapter 15 wrote his account.

First Line of Paper 194 (194:0.1)
"About one o'clock, as the one hundred and twenty believers were engaged in prayer, they all became aware of a strange presence in the room."

Do you notice how the end of Paper 193 flows beautifully together with the beginning of Paper 194. Seamless connection. It was about noon at the end of 193 and it was about one o'clock at the beginning of 194.

If you count up all of the days between Jesus' arrest and the time of his ascension , you will get forty days; so the apostles weren't in hiding between his ascension and the day of Pentecost.

#12 Howard509

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 07:06 PM

I strongly disagree with you. I believe Sadler would have been in a position to know.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#13 menno

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Posted 28 March 2013 - 09:48 PM

.. That quote that you provided from Dr. Sadler doesn't make any sense when you take a close look at Paper 193 and 194.

Edited by menno, 28 March 2013 - 09:55 PM.


#14 Howard509

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Posted 30 March 2013 - 10:30 AM

I find it interesting that the Urantia Book doesn't mention the tongues of fire that descended on the disciples at Pentecost, although it doesn't say anything contradicting it either.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin





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