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#21 -Scott-

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 10:15 PM

-Scott- do you realize that admitting you don't think it's possible to perform personal loving service over the "interwebs" reflects you and whatever you share here?

You've just affirmed that you feel separated from us personally, and affirmed that whatever you share here (although something of a service) is not done to offer personal loving service, because you think doing so (offering personal loving service) here is impossible - for you.

Yes.
For you.

Regardless of why you might think that no one else can do it just because you cannot do it - just focusing on the fact of what you think is not possible with regard to performing personal loving right here and now - why you are here engaging all these conversations?


Very seriously:


Since you realize this for yourself -

Since you cannot fathom how it's possible to perform personal loving service here online - and

Since you know that we're all supposed to be striving to do that (performing personal loving service to the best of our abilities in whatever way(s) we can) -


- then why exactly are you not totally devoting your efforts in the realm (offline) where you feel that you actually can fulfill the mandate of offering personally loving service to others?


Yes it does reflect who I am as well. I am not devoting all my efforts offline to offering loving service to people because I am not a very loving person. Nor do I have self-mastery. I care about people but I don't really love anyone. I would love to be a second miler and I cannot wait until the day I am.

Edited by -Scott-, 21 March 2013 - 10:34 PM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#22 Absonite

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 11:41 PM

Ok, so now wait a minute here...


You're not a very loving person??
What??



How can you not be a loving person?!



Since you are a person, and

Since you care about people, and thus desire (in any way) to enact that care for the good of those people - and

Since the UB explicitly tells us that love is the desire to do good to others (56:10.21)


- then you are loving (you love) those people.



Therefore, you are a loving person.
Right?

Edited by Absonite, 21 March 2013 - 11:49 PM.


#23 -Scott-

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 01:00 AM

Ok, so now wait a minute here...


You're not a very loving person??
What??



How can you not be a loving person?!



Since you are a person, and

Since you care about people, and thus desire (in any way) to enact that care for the good of those people - and

Since the UB explicitly tells us that love is the desire to do good to others (56:10.21)


- then you are loving (you love) those people.



Therefore, you are a loving person.
Right?


I don't think what we commonly associate with love is even close to love at all, and yes the u.b calls it a desire but it must be a whole-hearted desire. There is a huuuge difference IMO. The adjuster resides in the heart of our being, which is essentially our the core of our mind. IMO this entire mindal core needs to be utilized in order to make any whole-hearted descisions. IMO when we become whole-hearted beings Sin becomes a real possibility and so does love.

At times I am almost pained to be compelled to portray the divine affection of the heavenly Father for his universe children by the employment of the human word symbol love. This term, even though it does connote man's highest concept of the mortal relations of respect and devotion, is so frequently designative of so much of human relationship that is wholly ignoble and utterly unfit to be known by any word which is also used to indicate the matchless affection of the living God for his universe creatures! How unfortunate that I cannot make use of some supernal and exclusive term which would convey to the mind of man the true nature and exquisitely beautiful significance of the divine affection of the Paradise Father. ~ The Urantia Book, (2:5.10)


IMO Jesus mission was and still is to lead mankind to love, and IMO the full experience of recongition,realization, appreaciation and love is whole-hearted.


(1675.4) 149:6.3 “The ‘fear of the Lord’ has had different meanings in the successive ages, coming up from fear, through anguish and dread, to awe and reverence. And now from reverence I would lead you up, through recognition, realization, and appreciation, to love. When man recognizes only the works of God, he is led to fear the Supreme; but when man begins to understand and experience the personality and character of the living God, he is led increasingly to love such a good and perfect, universal and eternal Father. And it is just this changing of the relation of man to God that constitutes the mission of the Son of Man on earth.

If I had to gauge how I treat human beings I would probably place myself on the level of the brotherly love. IMO the full experience of all levels is akin to whole-heartedness. IMO we are just partially devoted to man, if we don't go all the way to the top and IMO partial devotion is not love.

Let me now teach you concerning the differing levels of meaning attached to the interpretation of this rule of living, this admonition to ‘do to others that which you desire others to do to you’:





(1650.5) 147:4.4 “1. The level of the flesh. Such a purely selfish and lustful interpretation would be well exemplified by the supposition of your question.
(1650.6) 147:4.5 “2. The level of the feelings. This plane is one level higher than that of the flesh and implies that sympathy and pity would enhance one’s interpretation of this rule of living.
(1650.7) 147:4.6 “3. The level of mind. Now come into action the reason of mind and the intelligence of experience. Good judgment dictates that such a rule of living should be interpreted in consonance with the highest idealism embodied in the nobility of profound self-respect.
(1651.1) 147:4.7 “4. The level of brotherly love. Still higher is discovered the level of unselfish devotion to the welfare of one’s fellows. On this higher plane of wholehearted social service growing out of the consciousness of the fatherhood of God and the consequent recognition of the brotherhood of man, there is discovered a new and far more beautiful interpretation of this basic rule of life.
(1651.2) 147:4.8 “5. The moral level. And then when you attain true philosophic levels of interpretation, when you have real insight into the rightness and wrongness of things, when you perceive the eternal fitness of human relationships, you will begin to view such a problem of interpretation as you would imagine a high-minded, idealistic, wise, and impartial third person would so view and interpret such an injunction as applied to your personal problems of adjustment to your life situations.
(1651.3) 147:4.9 “6. The spiritual level. And then last, but greatest of all, we attain the level of spirit insight and spiritual interpretation which impels us to recognize in this rule of life the divine command to treat all men as we conceive God would treat them. That is the universe ideal of human relationships. And this is your attitude toward all such problems when your supreme desire is ever to do the Father’s will. I would, therefore, that you should do to all men that which you know I would do to them in like circumstances.”


117:6.10 All true love is from God, and man receives the divine affection as he himself bestows this love upon his fellows. Love is dynamic. It can never be captured; it is alive, free, thrilling, and always moving. Man can never take the love of the Father and imprison it within his heart. The Father’s love can become real to mortal man only by passing through that man’s personality as he in turn bestows this love upon his fellows. The great circuit of love is from the Father, through sons to brothers, and hence to the Supreme. The love of the Father appears in the mortal personality by the ministry of the indwelling Adjuster. Such a God-knowing son reveals this love to his universe brethren, and this fraternal affection is the essence of the love of the Supreme.

I don't personally believe that any human being can truly receive the Fathers Love with half-hearted devotion. IMO we have to get our self up to a certain point where gods ministry and love can directly flow through us. IMO love that comes from a full heart is the love flowing through the adjuster, and IMO very few people are actually experiencing love. Each one of those levels also appear to be directly related to each cosmic intuition. Obviously its easy to see that with the 2nd intuition being "moral discrimination" and the 3rd being "spirit insight".

Mortal man cannot possibly know the infinitude of the heavenly Father. Finite mind cannot think through such an absolute truth or fact. But this same finite human being can actually feel--literally experience--the full and undiminished impact of such an infinite Father's LOVE. Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return. ~ The Urantia Book, (3:4.6)

The authors state only a god-knowing man/women can love. This just re-iterates that all love gods from god. It does not come from mushy feelings, or warm fuzzies, even though those are included in the experience of love. I am not a god-knowing person.

Only a God-knowing individual can love another person as he loves himself. ~ The Urantia Book, (16:9.8)

And finally here the authors just flat out state that there are not many human beings going beyond convention and duty, and not really living and not really loving.


195:10.5.In winning souls for the Master, it is not the first mile of compulsion, duty, or convention that will transform man and his world, but rather the second mile of free service and liberty-loving devotion that betokens the Jesusonian reaching forth to grasp his brother in love and sweep him on under spiritual guidance toward the higher and divine goal of mortal existence. Christianity even now willingly goes the first mile, but mankind languishes and stumbles along in moral darkness because there are so few genuine second-milers—so few professed followers of Jesus who really live and love as he taught his disciples to live and love and serve.



1:6.5.
Some degree of moral affinity and spiritual harmony is essential to friendship between two persons; a loving personality can hardly reveal himself to a loveless person. Even to approach the knowing of a divine personality, all of man's personality endowments must be wholly consecrated to the effort; halfhearted, partial devotion will be unavailing.


- (154:4.6) This world has never seriously tried to carry out the teachings of Jesus on a large scale, notwithstanding that halfhearted attempts have often been made to follow the doctrines of so-called Christianity.


So yes I have a desire to do good to others, but it is a half-hearted desire.


Edited by -Scott-, 22 March 2013 - 01:50 AM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#24 Bonita

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:31 AM

p1097:03 You cannot truly love your fellows by a mere act of the will. Love is only born of thoroughgoing understanding of your neighbor's motives and sentiments. It is not so important to love all men today as it is that each day you learn to love one more human being. If each day or each week you achieve an understanding of one more of your fellows, and if this is the limit of your ability, then you are certainly socializing and truly spiritualizing your personality. Love is infectious, and when human devotion is intelligent and wise, love is more catching than hate. But only genuine and unselfish love is truly contagious. If each mortal could only become a focus of dynamic affection, this benign virus of love would soon pervade the sentimental emotion-stream of humanity to such an extent that all civilization would be encompassed by love, and that would be the realization of the brotherhood of man.

We progress one imperfection at a time. We learn to love one person at a time by overcoming selfish, thus isolating, attitudes toward others. We move forward by allowing spirit dominance over one deficiency at a time and by socializing our personality, learning to overcome frictions, feelings of animosity, anger, resentment and all the other spirit poisons which get in the way of spirit dominance of loving relationships, which is the province of the Spirit of Truth.

p1950 Love, unselfishness, must undergo a constant and living readaptative interpretation of relationships in accordance with the leading of the Spirit of Truth.

It's the desire that must be wholehearted. God will work with desire if you allow him, one opportunity at a time, one relationship at a time, one decision at a time.

100:2.1 Spiritual progress is predicated on intellectual recognition of spiritual poverty coupled with the self-consciousness of perfection-hunger, the desire to know God and be like him, the wholehearted purpose to do the will of the Father in heaven.

It's all about socialization of the personality; that is the purpose of the ascension career. There will never be a point when you are suddenly zapped with a permanent wholehearted love for all of mankind. You must earn that, one step at a time by eliminating your imperfections of love with a wholehearted dedication of desire and purpose. Feelings of wholehearted love may come in waves of rapture, but true goodness, which is part of love, is not a feeling; true goodness is unconscious. And if you're selflessly loving, you should not be conscious of yourself either.

100:2.1 Spiritual development is determined by capacity therefor and is directly proportional to the elimination of the selfish qualities of love.

We are told to take the self out of love, which makes love a service, a desire to give back, a purer purpose for living. God is continuously giving his love to us even though we may be unaware of it. But it's not possible to take so much without developing the desire to give back. If the desire is lacking, the soul is lacking; desire is the heart of the soul calling you forward.

5:5.14 A human mind discerning right and wrong and possessing the capacity to worship God, in union with a divine Adjuster, is all that is required in that mortal to initiate and foster the production of his immortal soul of survival qualities if such a spirit-endowed individual seeks God and sincerely desires to become like him, honestly elects to do the will of the Father in heaven.

God works with our desire for righteousness and coaxes us closer and closer to divinity of desire and perfection of purpose. If you sit around waiting for a blinding light of righteousness to come, then you'll be like the steward who buried the money and had it taken away; given instead, to the ones who desired and tried to give back to the best of their abilities.

26:4.13 When, through and by the ministry of all the helper hosts of the universal scheme of survival, you are finally deposited on the receiving world of Havona, you arrive with only one sort of perfection - perfection of purpose. Your purpose has been thoroughly proved; your faith has been tested. You are known to be disappointment proof. Not even the failure to discern the Universal Father can shake the faith or seriously disturb the trust of an ascendant mortal who has passed through the experience that all must traverse in order to attain the perfect spheres of Havona. By the time you reach Havona, your sincerity has become sublime. Perfection of purpose and divinity of desire, with steadfastness of faith, have secured your entrance to the settled abodes of eternity; your deliverance from the uncertainties of time is full and complete; and now must you come face to face with the problems of Havona and the immensities of Paradise, to meet which you have so long been in training in the experiential epochs of time on the world schools of space.

#25 Absonite

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:48 AM

Yes, -Scott- the Revelator bemoans the shortcomings of language about this. Meaning cannot be put in a box. And words are not boxes. Instead of being boxes, words simply are arrows that point at - that indicate, reference, etc... - meanings. The Revelator knows that, and longs to be able to do what cannot be done (otherwise the Revelator simply would have done it!) using language.

And we've been given a very clear explanation that simply points at the meaning for the word love: love is the desire to do good to others ((56:10.21) Notice that the phrase whole hearted is not part of that explicit explanation. When one desires to do good to others, one is loving. That's what love simply is. If you desire to do good to others, then you are loving. That's the basic bottom line. Period.

Since you know that you're on the level of brotherly love, then that means that you do indeed know that you are a loving person on that level. Loving as a brother means that you desire to do good to others as a brother.


I am not a god-knowing person.



That's a pile of horsepucky, -Scott-
You already know God - and you already know where God exactly and intimately is - with specific reference to your Fragment.

And I'm not making any sort of rarefied use of the word know here. Getting what I simply mean does not require gyrating through any sort of semantic gymnastics while hanging up on the rings of esoteric and arcane metaphysics. This is just simple basic affirmation of what you have learned from basically reading the UB, and what you are currently experiencing as a personality with a Fragment of God.


The quote from (195:10.5) clearly says that going the second mile is grasping your brother in love and sweeping him on under spiritual guidance toward the higher and divine goal of mortal existence. You have already affirmed that you are on the level of brotherly love. Therefore, you are already walking the "second mile".

Whether or not anyone else chooses to run with popular notions about love - whether or not anyone else goes beyond convention and duty - and whether or not you have only a half-hearted desire does not matter because of what you have affirmed yourself as already doing and what the Revelator has said such doing means (loving) by simple definition.


You are a person. You know God. You already are engaged in performing personally loving service - because you already desire (as caring) to do good to others as a brother. Therefore you already are a "second-miler".

And you can continue progressively working with your Fragment to deepen that desire to whole heartedness, thereby deepening the personally loving service.

Edited by Absonite, 22 March 2013 - 08:57 AM.


#26 Bonita

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 10:49 AM

Here's the rest of that quote about the Spirit of Truth:

180:5.10 Love, unselfishness, must undergo a constant and living readaptative interpretation of relationships in accordance with the leading of the Spirit of Truth. Love must thereby grasp the ever-changing and enlarging concepts of the highest cosmic good of the individual who is loved. And then love goes on to strike this same attitude concerning all other individuals who could possibly be influenced by the growing and living relationship of one spirit-led mortal's love for other citizens of the universe. And this entire living adaptation of love must be effected in the light of both the environment of present evil and the eternal goal of the perfection of divine destiny.

180:5.11 And so must we clearly recognize that neither the golden rule nor the teaching of nonresistance can ever be properly understood as dogmas or precepts. They can only be comprehended by living them, by realizing their meanings in the living interpretation of the Spirit of Truth, who directs the loving contact of one human being with another.


Love is a living reality, just like truth. Love cannot be defined or intellectually understood; it must be lived. If you're not living truth and love, then you're not living at all. And, it's not possible to have love without socializing the personality because only personalities can love. Isolation of the personality from relationships with other persons is death of the personality. TUB even tells us that the worst form of evil and the most destructive to personality is the betrayal of trust or disloyalty to one's friends.

p754:04 And of all forms of evil, none are more destructive of personality status than betrayal of trust and disloyalty to one's confiding friends.

It doesn't matter if you have only one friend or hundreds; it's all about how you socialize your personality with each person. TUB tells us that we first learn loyalty. Without loyalty we cannot proceed to love.

p435:4 39:4.11 What is loyalty? It is the fruit of an intelligent appreciation of universe brotherhood; one could not take so much and give nothing. As you ascend the personality scale, first you learn to be loyal, then to love, then to be filial, and then may you be free; but not until you are a finaliter, not until you have attained perfection of loyalty, can you self-realize finality of liberty.

#27 Bonita

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:41 PM

Which brings me back to what I originally wrote on this thread, the comment called "silly":

Which is precisely why I sometimes spend hours developing a post. After all, the revelators admit to using over one thousand outstanding human ideas as a basis for the Papers. Undoubtedly, higher minds than ours pay attention to our ideas, even those presented here, so best to always put forward the best you can muster.


This forum is a social forum frequented by personalities. Therefore, this forum is an arena for socialization of the personality, a holy occupation. What is silly about always attempting to put forward the best one can muster? What is silly about spending time and energy sharing the best you can muster with other personalities? There is no such thing as worthless, silly and unholy work when you are a faith son of God.

192.2.13 Never forget that, when you are a faith son of God, all upright work of the realm is sacred. Nothing which a son of God does can be common. Do your work, therefore, from this time on, as for God. And when you are through on this world, I have other and better worlds where you shall likewise work for me. And in all of this work, on this world and on other worlds, I will work with you, and my spirit shall dwell within you.

#28 Howard509

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 12:59 PM

I think that, as Urantians, we shouldn't take ourselves too seriously. We should be willing to accept criticism and even have a sense of humor about ourselves. If the average person judged the Urantia Book based on the Urantia movement, rather than on the book itself, what would their conclusions be? Would they be attracted to the book or repelled by it?

In the Forum days, from what I've read in various sources, Sadler attempted to have dictatorial control over what opinions could be shared or not. After Sadler's death, Christy and others claimed to have exclusive copyright status based on messages from angelic beings not included in the Urantia Book itself. These copyright claims are later struck down in court, not without undue suffering for all sides. Then there are some foggy-minded Urantians who predict the world is going to end. Then there springs up all over the world "transmit-receivers" who claim to receive ongoing revelation, polarizing the movement even further.

Though I love the Urantia Book as a revelation and read it rather often, I am sort of happy that my only involvement with the Urantia movement is through the internet. I am thankful for this forum for allowing me to ask questions and for the many insightful answers. At the same time, I'd be rather hesitant to attend a study group at a stranger's home since you never know how that will turn out.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#29 Howard509

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:25 PM

In this article, Bill Sadler Jr. wrote that Urantia is not a church or sect, and that one's relationship with the Universal Father is more important than one's belief or disbelief in the Urantia Book as a revelation: http://www.urantiaus...20Or%20Sect.pdf

"There is a real place in modern civilization for a group of religious people who are "... willing to completely divest themselves of all ecclesiastical authority end fully surrender all concept of spiritual sovereignty. God alone is spiritual sovereign." (p. 1487:01) The modern world hardly needs another church, another sect. At the present time, we suffer from a plethora of churches and a multiplication of sects."
http://www.urantiaus...20Or%20Sect.pdf


To the outside world, the Urantia movement is just another divisive sect when we seem to care more about debating every minutiae of detail about midwayers and fandors than living the actual principles that we claim to love.

Edited by Howard509, 22 March 2013 - 03:28 PM.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#30 Absonite

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 03:50 PM

I only know a meager handful of people offline who can handle conversations that delve into clarifying the cosmological, theological, and philosophical foundations of various religious and spiritual topics. Beyond such rare people, most of the conversations offline which I have about religion and spirituality focus answering questions, or providing suggestions for perspective refreshers, to people who are suffering personal crises. But let me be completely clear here: such conversations are in the severe minority of the conversations that I have in a given month. The overwhelming majority of conversations offline which I have with others, on a daily basis, topically have nothing to do with religion and or spirituality.


That's right.
The overwhelming majority - as in 95 to 98 percent of them.


And they revolve around the basic concerns of daily living: eating, sleeping, excreting, and sharing various accounts and recounts of the challenges, successes, and failures to accomplish the enjoyable fulfillment of those missions. Any explicitly religious or spiritual talk (beyond merely parroting popular platitudes) is dismissed as totally irrelevant for successful, hard core, no nonsense, pragmatic living. The only topics that are somewhat permissible to go into with a bit more detail are: fantasy football; fanatically blind team-sport support for national politics; concupiscent conquests; hunting paraphernalia; and, anything mechanical below the techno-level of computers. All else is summarily ignored in preference for reacting strictly based upon your body's sex, race, and age (in that order) - as well as your body's demeanor as expressed through tone of voice, facial expression, and mannerisms. What your body looks like, and how you say something, means so much more than anything you actually say that the situation is nearly astonishingly and astoundingly stupefying.


And I'm not exaggerating here one bit.


The personally loving service that I practice in daily life offline happens at an entirely different linguistic, socio-economic, and interactive level - or it truly cannot be accomplished. I have to be prepared and motivated enough to remain capable of engaging them all without losing my mind - according to how I am piloted from within - according to a demonstration of personal and social deeds, rather than with words, for all the aforementioned reasons above. And conversations like these here online are the only mental gym I regularly have to run on the treadmill, use the machines, and curl-, dead-, and bench- lift the heavy cosmotheosophical weights on a regular basis to stay in competitive shape.

Other than buying books, I'm also not involved at all with the "Urantia Movement" offline. I've known about the various conferences and meetings and study groups, etc... for decades now. But I just haven't received the message from within to join in with any of them.

So being online here, able to talk shop with other readers, is great for me.

Edited by Absonite, 22 March 2013 - 03:59 PM.


#31 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 05:10 PM

Howard, you are being very declarative again....and wrong, again. How can you speak for or diagnose the perspective of the "outside" world? Your subjectivity is glaringly unobjective. Perhaps you are right but then I imagine most of the "outside" world (whatever that means) does not know about nor have any opinion at all. But to your point, it is my belief that the need to work through and work out some material, ego, and mortal mind at mischief obstacles that are normal and predictable behavioral issues is the reason for the specific timing of the Revelation and its publication. I've been in the thick of the mess from Grimsley's fall into darkness of self importance to Hamm and the legalistic struggles between Foundation and Brotherhood/Fellowship and Marty's egomaniacal end of printing the UB to "protect" it to people being sued for indexes and digital books, etc., etc. But from those ashes arose a more mature and focused readership and many devoted foot soldiers tried and true, emerging wiser and stronger for the construction of the super-structure and foundation work accomplished these past 10 years or so. From your perspective it may appear horrific and ugly and embarrasing (and it was all of those things...I'm no apologist) but from my perspective, it is a marvelous example of Father taking lemons and making lemonade. The sincere efforts and intentions of righteous souls (and there have been many) over the past 50+ years was not wasted and delivered us unto this time and place. I'm glad you like the forums. I love them myself. So much access to so much experience and so many perspectives is truly the most exciting development in the movement.....except for its very survival. There have been many valiant and enlightened souls that gave much for a long time for us to enjoy this here and now. I share your enthusiasm.

I would say though that I have attended over 25 distinct study groups over the years (acted as study group coordinator for awhile so traveling visitations were just part of the job) and each was a gem of an experience. You may also consider starting one. I recommend the Study Group Guide available here or at the UAI for some great ways to organize and run one. And many groups do meet in places besides a home....including libraries, campuses, churches, etc. I believe you would make a wonderful host myself. Please consider it....for the sake of the Revelation and those seeking souls that will find you as they need you. I also highly recommend regional, national, or international conferences as these larger gathering bring together some amazing scholars and teachers and artists. I have always found them great fun with great people learning great things. I fear that the forums may exaggerate disagreement or dispute in your and other minds as it is quite unstructured and there is a full spectrum of preconception, misconception, prejudices, and truth experiences in-play....which I love but I'm pretty grounded in the text and in the spectrum of preconception both. I am learning much here about the Revelation but even more about myself and how to interact without stinking up the place....much of that struggle and learning curve I can thank you for. And I do. Sincerely, even reverantly. For I am here to learn how to teach too. I can't do that if I do not learn better how to engage and interact with grace and poise (yes, I know...still much for me to learn there). Thank you Brother. :rolleyes:


Absonite. I know what you mean. I get so bored by most conversation due to its shallowness if not in-family or with other religionists. We are blessed to have your mind and voice and experience and perspective here. You're a great teacher to me and others. If I were to give advice to you it would only be to try a conference and socialize some with fellow students and believers. All would benefit thereby. Other than that, just please continue to share your fruit at this table. You give quite a feast Brother. I love it here as you do.

Finally, would like to take up Brother Boom/Scott's issue; are we relating here? Are there relationships here which have meaning and value in that regard? Are we not within a group dynamic of learning and teaching and growing and discovering that fits within the definitions of friendship, relationship, intersection, pattern, love, understanding, etc.? I have always thought so. I may be misunderstanding but Scott seems to be saying this is not "real" or personal since it is not in person and face to face. I think it interesting to consider the reality and unreality of "on-line" interactions since I certainly think that all the texting, tweeting, and FB posting dimminishes relationship. How can I be so contradictory in my own position? Anywho, thought I'd ask other's opinion of this issue.

See you on the new Forum!! :wub: :lol: :P ^_^ B) :ph34r:
Peace be upon you."

#32 Absonite

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 06:45 PM

Those offline conversations are not boring for me as much as they are just not topically about religion, spirituality, etc... So everything comes down to what is personally and socially demonstrated, regardless of words or conversational topic.

Eg. There's no talking about God, love, compassion, the after life adventures, etc... as a topic - instead, love, peace, joy, and all the other principles must be demonstrated directly through facial expressions, mannerisms, tone of voice, and behavior. It's almost totally about deeds, not words - because the guys truly don't care much about the words at all. Words are just fancy ways to use the mouth to shape tones, for them. What really matters, is meaningful, and is the truth to them is the message you convey through the pitch and tonal inflection behind the words, and all the other "body language" used. The rest is just "lip flapping" or BSing as far as they're concerned.

And as much as that can sound ideal to like minded individuals, it is as much of an extreme situation as conversation here - but in the inverse way.

When the guys get into trouble, it's deep trouble like a pit they truly have problems climbing out of, because there's no room for giving and receiving nuances of helpful meaning in a brute body language based communication culture. They tend to be motivated first and foremost by primal instincts. Etc...


And makimg it through all that is as exhausting for me as I have no doubt discussing the absolutes of infinity would be for them.


But I have learned a lot from the guys about what truly motivates me to relate with them according to personal demonstration. And it comes down to foundational topical discussions online in the inverse direction.

Edited by Absonite, 22 March 2013 - 06:57 PM.


#33 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 07:31 PM

You are right of course....bored was the wrong word. For I am always seeking a way to understand or find commonality and move deeper in such "boring" "conversations" about sports, politics, movies, yadayada. In my professional life, I must have deep, meaningful, and difficult discussions on very heavy and personal issues with people who need help and understanding. I use so much of my experience as religionist to make people comfortable, confidential, expressive, hopeful, pragmatic, and soothe fears and anxieties. It is powerful, rewarding, and....exhausting frankly. But the reward is great....appreciation, loyalty, reputation, resolution, life changing, and yes, even love. So I did not mean the world is boring or irrelevant off line to be sure. It is thrilling and surprising and delightful to the children of Father who seek always to discover the truth, beauty, and goodness in every relationship and encounter. Thanks again Absonite. B)
Peace be upon you."

#34 Howard509

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:23 PM

There is nothing wrong with discussing the Urantia Book on an internet forum. We should just be aware that doing so isn't a fulfillment of our commitment to be of loving service to others and that the dogmatism and sectarianism that often appear on internet forums isn't what the revelators had in mind.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#35 -Scott-

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Posted 22 March 2013 - 08:39 PM

IMO this paragraph is very very revealing and IMO it also relates to the different levels of the golden rule and also the 3 cosmic intuitions.

(1675.4) 149:6.3 “The ‘fear of the Lord’ has had different meanings in the successive ages, coming up from fear, through anguish and dread, to awe and reverence. And now from reverence I would lead you up, through recognition, realization, and appreciation, to love. When man recognizes only the works of God, he is led to fear the Supreme; but when man begins to understand and experience the personality and character of the living God, he is led increasingly to love such a good and perfect, universal and eternal Father. And it is just this changing of the relation of man to God that constitutes the mission of the Son of Man on earth.

Jesus appears to be stating that his mission is to lead men up from a starting point of reverence, up through recognition, realization, appreciation and to love. IMO we can overlay those last 3 high levels with the different different levels of living the golden rule and also the cosmic intuitions.

Here are the 3 highest levels.

(1651.1) 147:4.7 “4. The level of brotherly love. Still higher is discovered the level of unselfish devotion to the welfare of one’s fellows. On this higher plane of wholehearted social service growing out of the consciousness of the fatherhood of God and the consequent recognition of the brotherhood of man, there is discovered a new and far more beautiful interpretation of this basic rule of life.
(1651.2) 147:4.8 “5. The moral level. And then when you attain true philosophic levels of interpretation, when you have real insight into the rightness and wrongness of things, when you perceive the eternal fitness of human relationships, you will begin to view such a problem of interpretation as you would imagine a high-minded, idealistic, wise, and impartial third person would so view and interpret such an injunction as applied to your personal problems of adjustment to your life situations.
(1651.3) 147:4.9 “6. The spiritual level. And then last, but greatest of all, we attain the level of spirit insight and spiritual interpretation which impels us to recognize in this rule of life the divine command to treat all men as we conceive God would treat them. That is the universe ideal of human relationships. And this is your attitude toward all such problems when your supreme desire is ever to do the Father’s will. I would, therefore, that you should do to all men that which you know I would do to them in like circumstances.”


IMO we may first experience the fact of god (level of brotherly love), and from that fact of god we logically (1st cosmic intuition) deduce that all other people must be our spiritual brother if we are also a child god and we are than led by a sense of ethics to do good to other human beings because it is a fact that they are gods children. Essentially If we come to the realization we are gods children so must everyone else be. Than from that initial level or logical level IMO many people begin to develop an appreciation for people and feel a sense of duty towards them IMO this is related to the 2nd cosmic intuition (duty/moral discrimination), and than finally IMO through the ministry of the SOT we finally arrive as second milers who actually love one another, and at this level IMO we are truly personal beings in every sense of the word and we have finally advanced passed evolutionary religion to true religion, a religion based on love. That 3rd cosmic intuition (spirit insight) finally connects us directly to gods love and ministry and we are officially god-knowing in the eyes of the universe.

IMO most human beings in their development of finding love and god go from first experiencing a strong factual intuitive sense that the father of mankind exists and acts upon that fact they are lead to a sense of morality or duty and than finally I believe we experience love. IMO once we experience the love from god, and have that coursing through us all those lower levels of living will become exponentially enhanced. IMO that spiritual love will flow through all our intuitions and our entire being giving everything in our perception of reality new meaning.

195:10.5.In winning souls for the Master, it is not the first mile of compulsion, duty, or convention that will transform man and his world, but rather the second mile of free service and liberty-loving devotion that betokens the Jesusonian reaching forth to grasp his brother in love and sweep him on under spiritual guidance toward the higher and divine goal of mortal existence. Christianity even now willingly goes the first mile, but mankind languishes and stumbles along in moral darkness because there are so few genuine second-milers—so few professed followers of Jesus who really live and love as he taught his disciples to live and love and serve.


According to this paragraph most believers are only living on a level that involves compulsion, duty or convention for their fellow man. At the end of this paragraph the authors explain that few believers really live and love. That group would include everyone IMO, myself included. Interestingly enough duty is also that second cosmic intuition. IMO most believers get to the point where they are just about to care for other humans with a whole heart but stop right up at the gates of duty,compulsion or convention. IMO most people don't bust open that door to love.


Edited by -Scott-, 22 March 2013 - 09:50 PM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#36 Nigel Nunn

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 12:57 AM

IMO most people don't bust open that door to love.


Why the concern about "most people"?

Social evolution works by someone making a start...
Wanna be a trend-setter?
Feel free! :D

Nigel

#37 Bonita

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 07:21 AM

There is nothing wrong with discussing the Urantia Book on an internet forum. We should just be aware that doing so isn't a fulfillment of our commitment to be of loving service to others and that the dogmatism and sectarianism that often appear on internet forums isn't what the revelators had in mind.


The work I do finding quotes for people and trying to answer their questions is a loving service. You may not think so, but you cannot know the intention of my heart. All the work Rick and Nigel do is also loving service. We are all friends here. Said Rodan: One of the crowning glories of human friendship is this power and possibility of the mutual stimulation of the imagination. (p1776) If you're not feeling loved here, if you feel the place is unfriendly, then perhaps this quote might help.

130:7.2 When Ganid inquired what one could do to make friends, having noticed that the majority of persons whom they chanced to meet were attracted to Jesus, his teacher said: “Become interested in your fellows; learn how to love them and watch for the opportunity to do something for them which you are sure they want done,” and then he quoted the olden Jewish proverb — “A man who would have friends must show himself friendly.”

Howard, I've never seen you attempt to do something for someone here on this forum. Your posts are always about you, what you like, what you think and how you feel. Have you ever really tried to help someone here? If so, I must have missed it.

Then there is also the quote from Sadler, a quote that has always intrigued me because it is said to be the Midwayers definition of friendship, given to Sadler verbatim from the Midwayers along with the permission to print it.

Friendship is the first and basic human conviction. It is more than an emotion, it is greater than an impulse, it transcends a sentiment. There is something profound about friendship at its best. It is undoubtedly based on the sentiment of love, and has in association with it many other emotions, including, no doubt, both sympathy and respect. Friendship is the equivalent of love plus loyalty and more or less of the sex-element. It is so influential in human experience that there appear to be no lengths to which it will not go to assert itself and to justify its existence.


If we are to believe that this is true, which I do because it can be acted out (p42), then friendship is the equivalent of love plus loyalty. Love here is described as a sentiment, so I do not think the Midwayers are speaking of divine love, but human love, yet they legitimize it by making it a stepping stone to loyalty. We have been told that we first must learn to be loyal and then to truly love. Friendship, to me, would seem to be the place where a person might learn how to be loyal and then to love.

TUB says: "As you ascend the personality scale, first you learn to be loyal, then to love, then to be filial . . ."(p435:4 39:4.11) Once we learn to be loyal to our friends we come to love them. And only when we've come to the point of loyalty and love can we be filial. Filial means the devotion of a son or daughter, it connotes family, a true brotherhood with God as Father. So, it is that we learn loyalty and love one person at a time by learning how to be friendly and helpful to one another, by becoming interested in one another, by being loyal to one another. It's a process but it feeds itself, and as the Midwayer's say, a process that will assert and justify itself. The entire universe is friendly, God is friendly; it is our destiny and the road to the true brotherhood of God.

#38 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 08:55 AM

(1228.3) 112:2.8 All mortal concepts of reality are based on the assumption of the actuality of human personality; all concepts of superhuman realities are based on the experience of the human personality with and in the cosmic realities of certain associated spiritual entities and divine personalities. Everything nonspiritual in human experience, excepting personality, is a means to an end. Every true relationship of mortal man with other persons — human or divine — is an end in itself. And such fellowship with the personality of Deity is the eternal goal of universe ascension.
Peace be upon you."

#39 brooklyn_born

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:27 AM

I have since digressed from posting to the board if you have not noticed yet, but I do read the posts from time to time. I have had some changes in my life that consume much of my free time. It is all good though, after all, the internet is not the real world, anyhow!

I feel compelled to chime in on this topic. I do not believe that posting to boards is the fulfillment of cosmic love as portrayed in Ubook, unless it is used to communicate some project plan literally that contributes to the advancement of society in real time (e.g., getting together to feed the homeless, work at a shelter, protest unnecessary war, fight crime, etc.). However, what I have observed is participants, including myself, using the board to espouse a particular interpretation, or ideology for that matter, of Ubook; sometimes it is embraced and welcomed, and sometimes met with fierce resistance. That, to me, comes across more dogmatic than anything else. Still I don't think there is anything wrong with that kind of usage, but call it what it is. This board is no different, to me, than other religious boards of which I was a member. Again, that is not to say it is a bad thing, but call it what it is.

Until I get some free time on my hand to participate like I used to, I bid you all farewell in love and peace!

BB

#40 Bonita

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 09:59 AM

Sharing is worthwhile. Sharing is Godlike.

p1221:2 111:5.1 The doing of the will of God is nothing more or less than an exhibition of creature willingness to share the inner life with God—with the very God who has made such a creature life of inner meaning-value possible. Sharing is Godlike—divine. God shares all with the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit, while they, in turn, share all things with the divine Sons and spirit Daughters of the universes.

Some people share ideas, others share ideals. Ideas originate in the outer world; ideals originate in the inner world. Here is where we hash things out and try to assimilate both meaning and value which we can then apply to the demands of everyday life.

111:4.10 Ideas may take origin in the stimuli of the outer world, but ideals are born only in the creative realms of the inner world.
111:6.7 The expansion of material knowledge permits a greater intellectual appreciation of the meanings of ideas and the values of ideals. A human being can find truth in his inner experience, but he needs a clear knowledge of facts to apply his personal discovery of truth to the ruthlessly practical demands of everyday life.

It is a form of teamwork. But of course, teams don't work well when there is constant rivalry over who is going to be the leader of the team. Here we have no appointed or elected leaders, so that aspect of human nature which demands that someone be on top crops up from time to time. It's vestigial though, and sooner or later we'll give up our fascination with it. In the meantime, there's nothing wrong with competition of ideas. The best ideas don't always win in the hearts of men, otherwise we'd be well on our way to light and life by now, but they will eventually creep into the psyche and take root. That is the way the universe works. The better and higher level always triumphs over the lower level . . . eventually . . . sometimes a very long time.

2.3.5 In any universe contest between actual levels of reality, the personality of the higher level will ultimately triumph over the personality of the lower level. This inevitable outcome of universe controversy is inherent in the fact that divinity of quality equals the degree of reality or actuality of any will creature.




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