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Mother Mary and the Urantia Book


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#21 Howard509

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 01:36 PM

Intercessory prayers are not "normal" nor effective for any. Sorry. Praying for others is a fine practice and is hardly the same thing as praying TO someone TO pray or petition for you. Witchdoctor primitivisms. Unworthy. Period. You're the one going in circles by trying to equate praying for another and praying to another. Get your own religious practice straight as these are not the same thing. Do what you will but quit trying to claim the Revelation supports such nonsense. Have you read the paper I recommended yet. Please do. And let's discuss practices with efficacy shall we?


Your willful ignorance of the original definition of the term "pray," which is to offer an earnest petition, is bothersome. If you would prefer to use a different word, that is fine. The point is that if we can ask a human person on this earth to pray for us, why not ask Mary? Instead of proving a clear difference between the two, you've displayed a willful ignorance bordering on intolerance.

In all honesty and fairness, I think we are talking in circles because you honestly don't have the vocabulary and frame of reference to understand what I am talking about. It's like "casting pearls before swine" and therefore it might be best if we respectfully agree to disagree.

(If you aren't familiar with the "pearls before swine" reference either, here it is:
http://en.wikipedia....ls_before_swine)

Edited by Howard509, 13 March 2013 - 01:39 PM.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#22 Howard509

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 01:55 PM

I believe that, if we are honest and secure about our belief in the Urantia Book as a revelation, we shouldn't be afraid to discuss scholarly issues surrounding the text or to discuss topics that aren't specifically endorsed by the book itself. Oftentimes, religious forums exist just so a group of "true believers" can go online to pat each other's backs and reassure each other about their common beliefs, instead of actually using intelligence to assess what those beliefs are and why they should be held in the first place. In such a cult-like forum, if someone raises an honest question that's outside the norm, they are accused of being a "false believer," no matter how legitimate that question might be.

If we are to believe William S. Sadler's account, he studied the sleeping subject for years before coming to the conclusion that the revelations were authentic, and even then didn't believe until after reading the Jesus papers. And even as a believer in the Urantia papers, he made sure to let others know that he didn't consider them inerrant or infallible, but that they should only be treated as a tool to help our relationship with God and others. It's a little sad when "true believers" of the Urantia Book aren't able to use the same sort of scholarly investigation and openness to questioning that the Urantia Book's greatest promoter himself used.

Edited by Howard509, 13 March 2013 - 01:58 PM.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#23 Nigel Nunn

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 02:10 PM

The point is that if we can ask a human person on this earth to pray for us, why not ask Mary?


I'm still wondering about this business of "asking someone to pray for us".

Nigel

#24 -Scott-

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 06:07 PM

I believe that, if we are honest and secure about our belief in the Urantia Book as a revelation, we shouldn't be afraid to discuss scholarly issues surrounding the text or to discuss topics that aren't specifically endorsed by the book itself.

@Yoder have you ever visited the skeptics corner on the other u.b site? We talk about scholarly issues all the time, no one is afraid of those issues. Also Sadler never went around telling people that the book had errors in it. He believed that it was innerant. Which it is, and hasn't been proved otherwise.

Edited by -Scott-, 13 March 2013 - 06:08 PM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#25 Absonite

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 06:29 AM

The point is that if we can ask a human person on this earth to pray for us, why not ask Mary?



The answer to that question is:


No one on Urantia can ask the dead - people who once were every day Urantians, who lived a regular life on Urantia, then moved on to beginning their ascension to Paradise - for anything. The dead do not (because the dead can not) receive any prayers, such that they (the dead) can then act on them (those prayers).

This is not about Michaels, Avonals, Melchizedeks, etc... who bestow themselves upon Urantia. Those beings are not what I mean by "the dead". This is about regular, everyday Urantians who have lived a life here not being able to be asked (through prayer, or any other means) to do anything for us after they have moved on past Urantia.

Since Mary was a regular, everyday Urantian in that sense, who lived a life here and then moved on, she is classified as one of the dead. She cannot be contacted by prayer or any other means. Therefore she cannot be asked to do anything for us since she has moved on past Urantia. Now yes, once someone catches up to wherever she is along the path to Paradise, she could indeed be asked to do something. But such asking would not be praying to her there - just as when any of us ask anything of each other here on Urantia we don't do so by praying to someone else here.



That's the answer to that question, Howard.



If you continue thinking that the UB supports us contacting the dead, and/or supports praying to any of the dead (and again, by "dead" I am not talking about the Michaels, etc... here) - then I would like you to produce the quote(s) that specifically state we can do that (contact-ask the dead for anything using prayer).

Edited by Absonite, 14 March 2013 - 06:38 AM.


#26 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 14 March 2013 - 03:52 PM

"What a mistake to dream of God far off in the skies when the spirit of the Universal Father lives within your own mind!"


The Urantia Book, (64.6) 5:2.3


No intercessor required. Absonite - glad I'm not the only one since I was accused of "willful ignorance" (prejudice? stubborness?) and, apparently "don't have the vocabulary and frame of reference to understand what I am talking about. It's like "casting pearls before swine" ..." In good humor I must oink to that I suppose. Sorry to be so unworthy there Friend Howard. But I think I understand the word pray....and its history. To petition is the lowest form of prayer. I hate watching athletes today so petition. They always thank god for victory....but not defeat? The more self is removed from prayer, the more effective for outcome and he/she who prays. Prayer is a ladder to worship. A simple warm up lap for communion. There is zero distance between the righteous mind and Father's mind/love. There should not be room for any intercessor to fit therein.



Howard, no one here judges your form of praying. I know it's comforting and cultural. As you say, I'm an old hillbilly protestant raised to shun all such intercession in any regard to our relationship with Father. But it is not my protestentism I present but the 5th Epochal Revelation. This is the keystone in the Revelation in my mind - who are we and where are we in relation to Father? The uniform and universal template of circuitry and connectivity between the Creator and the created is the end of all priests, pettitioners, intercessors, intermediaries, oracles, mediums, etc., etc. As I said in my first reply....any form of sincere prayer is both desireable and effective compared to NOT praying, so I do not criticise any their particular form. But as we are here to share the Revelation's teachings, including by comparison and contrast with others, I would again offer to take this thread to a study of superior forms of prayer whenever you wish. Have you read the paper on prayer yet?

;)

Edited by Bradly aka/fanofVan, 14 March 2013 - 03:54 PM.

Peace be upon you."

#27 Coop

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 07:18 AM

The Secret

196:0.10 Jesus brought to God, as a man of the realm, the greatest of all offerings: the consecration and dedication of his own will to the majestic service of doing the divine will. Jesus always and consistently interpreted religion wholly in terms of the Father’s will. When you study the career of the Master, as concerns prayer or any other feature of thereligious life, look not so much for what he taught as for what he did. Jesus never prayed as a religious duty. To him prayer was a sincere expression of spiritual attitude, a declaration of soul loyalty, a recital of personal devotion, an expression of thanksgiving, an avoidance of emotional tension, a prevention of conflict, an exaltation of intellection, an ennoblement of desire, a vindication of moral decision, an enrichment of thought, an invigoration of higher inclinations, a consecration of impulse, a clarification of viewpoint, a declaration of faith, a transcendental surrender of will, a sublime assertion of confidence, a revelation of courage, the proclamation of discovery, a confession of supreme devotion, the validation of consecration, a technique for the adjustment of difficulties, and the mighty mobilization ofthe combined soul powers to withstand all human tendencies toward selfishness, evil, and sin. He lived just such a life of prayerful consecration to the doing of his Father’s will and ended his life triumphantly with just such a prayer.

The secret of his unparalleled religious life was this consciousness of the presence of God; and he attained it by intelligent prayer and sincere worship — unbroken communion with God — and not by leadings, voices, visions, or extraordinary religious practices.

Edited by Coop, 15 March 2013 - 07:19 AM.


#28 Bonita

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 09:38 AM

Jesus never asked for prayers.

141:7.12 He seldom paused to correct misunderstandings or to resent misrepresentation. He never asked any man for advice; he never made requests for prayers.

#29 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 04:13 PM

Howard says: "If you believe that the Urantia Book was written to supplement and complement the historic Christian faith, not to supersede it, then I see no reason why we need to abandon the ancient practice of intercessory prayer."


There's the rub Howard. I don't believe that at all. Not only does the UB supersede the historic christian faith models, but it supplants it IN TOTAL with the original and expanded Gospel OF Jesus. I would now direct you to Paper 195:

(2070.14) 195:0.18 Many of the great truths taught by Jesus were almost lost in these early compromises, but they yet slumber in this religion of paganized Christianity, which was in turn the Pauline version of the life and teachings of the Son of Man. And Christianity, even before it was paganized, was first thoroughly Hellenized. ........

(2082.7) 195:9.2 But paganized and socialized Christianity stands in need of new contact with the uncompromised teachings of Jesus; it languishes for lack of a new vision of the Master’s life on earth. ......

(2083.4) 195:9.8 The world needs more firsthand religion. Even Christianity — the best of the religions of the twentieth century — is not only a religion about Jesus, but it is so largely one which men experience secondhand. They take their religion wholly as handed down by their accepted religious teachers. What an awakening the world would experience if it could only see Jesus as he really lived on earth and know, firsthand, his life-giving teachings!......

(2083.7) 195:9.11 So-called Christianity has become a social and cultural movement as well as a religious belief and practice. The stream of modern Christianity drains many an ancient pagan swamp and many a barbarian morass; many olden cultural watersheds drain into this present-day cultural stream as well as the high Galilean tablelands which are supposed to be its exclusive source......


Why drain another's paganistic swamp or barbarian morass?? Those who know better but cling to the old, tired, and ineffective ways are beyond error. I believe the 5th Epochal Revelation was delivered to help us escape these barbarous chains that hold us back from a personal and intimate relationship directly with Father. Would you approach him? If so, Mary and the saints stand in your way.....but only because you insist upon it. But pray on Brother. Pray on. No doubt your sincerety travels the distance you require of it. I guess we're not going to get to that discussion on prayer. Maybe another time. B)
Peace be upon you."

#30 Bonita

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 04:38 PM

TUB does inform us that it is wrong for us to think that we must rely on the intercession of God's subordinate sons, and presumably daughters. In a way it is an insult to God who is perfectly capable of loving us as much and more than any other Deity.

2:5.2 It is wrong to think of God as being coaxed into loving his children because of the sacrifices of his Sons or the intercession of his subordinate creatures, “for the Father himself loves you.” It is in response to this paternal affection that God sends the marvelous Adjusters to indwell the minds of men.

In fact, it is the Adjuster who intercedes for us. It is a remarkably intimate and personal process.

8:6.4 “The Spirit himself makes intercession for you.”

#31 Absonite

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 06:43 PM

2:5.2 It is wrong to think of God as being coaxed into loving his children because of the sacrifices of his Sons or the intercession of his subordinate creatures, “for the Father himself loves you.” It is in response to this paternal affection that God sends the marvelous Adjusters to indwell the minds of men.


There's the quote I knew was in there, but couldn't find!

Thank you, Bonita

#32 Bonita

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 03:47 AM

You're welcome. Here's another disturbing quote:

195:4.2 During these dark and despairing centuries, religion became virtually secondhanded again. The individual was almost lost before the overshadowing authority, tradition, and dictation of the church. A new spiritual menace arose in the creation of a galaxy of "saints” who were assumed to have special influence at the divine courts, and who, therefore, if effectively appealed to, would be able to intercede in man’s behalf before the Gods.

#33 Carolyn

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 12:35 PM

Dear Bonita,

Thank you for your clear thinking and knowledge of TUB.

Affectionately,

Carolyn
"Knowledge is possessed only by sharing; it is safeguarded by wisdom and socialized by love."




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