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The celestials used human sources. So what?


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#1 Howard509

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:46 PM

Skeptics like Martin Gardner have tried to use the work of Matthew Block to discredit the Urantia Book as a revelation. I find this a little silly considering that no one human author could likely synthesize so many sources from so many diverse subjects while providing better insights than the original sources themselves.

Almost every critical student of religion after reading The Urantia Book first tests the hypothesis that Dr. Sadler or a group of scholars wrote the book. Some twenty-five years ago we had a group of around a dozen theologically trained people who thoroughly examined this thesis. We came to the conclusion on empirical grounds that no one person could have written it. The background knowledge required is simply too comprehensive for one person to have mastered. The spiritual insights were at too high a level over too extensive a span to believe one person could have written it--there are no historical parallels that are this extensive. The coherence of this entire and complex book are amazing and surpass that of the best authors of past and present. Against such odds, if we still assume Dr. Sadler wrote the book, we would have to recognize him as one of the greatest geniuses who ever lived--which Dr. Rheaume not only does not do but seems to imply that the author needed only quite ordinary scholarly abilities to produce the book.
http://urantia-book....ers/doc590.html


Even if Sadler were the human author, and I am not saying that he is, he could have still been under divine inspiration in writing the papers. The Urantia Book itself talks about the Universal Mind, the Thought Adjuster, the Memory of Mercy and other spiritual entities that a human author could have utilized in compiling the text.

Probably the most serious objective weakness of Dr. Rheaume's analysis is his failure to realize that authorship technically has nothing to do with the quality of a literary or religious production. Truth is not determined by the fact of authorship. Whether or not a religious work is designated as revelation is not determined by authorship. The authorship of much of the Bible and material in other sacred books is not known. Literature which is classified as revelation is the result of the judgment of many people over many years of experience. I am confident this judgment will be made of The Urantia Book in the centuries to come.
An individual can make the judgment that The Urantia Book is revelatory now. But this evaluation is a personal decision and an act of faith--hopefully after thorough intellectual and experiential analysis has been made. For all practical purposes, it makes little difference whether a person classifies The Urantia Book as revelation or not. "A rose by any other name smells the same." I usually advise people when starting to read the book not to view it as revelation. Read it critically like any other book. Truth either speaks to us personally or it does not. Much later we can decide whether or not we think the spirit of God speaks through the book.
http://urantia-book....ers/doc590.html


Edited by Howard509, 09 March 2013 - 02:48 PM.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#2 Howard509

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 11:05 AM

Matthew Block has brought to my attention that the Urantia Book's information on Cynicism was originally taken from a source on Islam and Sikhism, not Cynicism. How do we explain this apparent discrepancy?

Red indicates where the UB writer drew passages from one religion’s sacred scriptures
and applied them to another religion, philosophy or personal faith statement. This occurs
in the Cynicism, Buddhism, Hinduism and “Our Religion” sections.
http://www.squarecir...kinprogress.pdf


We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#3 -Scott-

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 02:31 PM

Matthew Block has brought to my attention that the Urantia Book's information on Cynicism was originally taken from a source on Islam and Sikhism, not Cynicism. How do we explain this apparent discrepancy?


What if Cynics wrote those passages and the authors of the Koran merely borrowed Cynic concepts for their book? It wouldn't be the 1st time. The bible has in it a mix of many pagan religions that could hardly be called Catholic or Christian. The Bible is hardly a collection of just Catholic and Christian thoughts but a collection of many different religious thoughts and philosophical thoughts.

Edited by -Scott-, 12 March 2013 - 02:41 PM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#4 Howard509

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:27 PM

What if Cynics wrote those passages and the authors of the Koran merely borrowed Cynic concepts for their book? It wouldn't be the 1st time. The bible has in it a mix of many pagan religions that could hardly be called Catholic or Christian. The Bible is hardly a collection of just Catholic and Christian thoughts but a collection of many different religious thoughts and philosophical thoughts.


What evidence would there be that the Koran was influenced by the Cynics?

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#5 Howard509

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 04:35 PM

The most interesting parts of the Urantia Book are the vast amount of information that cannot be found in human sources.

I regard The Urantia Book revelatory for the same reason I so regard the Bible. It contains the highest quality of insight into spiritual truth and Reality of any book I know. It presents the most meaningful spiritual cosmology available on the planet. The best in Christian eschatology pales by comparison. It contains the most dynamic and spiritually uplifting picture of the life and teaching of Jesus available. It integrates science, philosophy, and religion more effectively than any other religious source. It is validated more completely by experience than any religious view with which I am acquainted. This is the important thing about The Urantia Book.
http://urantia-book....ers/doc590.html


Criticism: The Urantia Book contains no new and original concepts. There is really nothing new in its presentation of cosmology, philosophy and religion.
In reply to this criticism, I submit 64 concepts and doctrines which are new and original as presented in The Urantia Book, not to mention more than one hundred additional narratives which represent enlargement, amplification, and clarification of existing knowledge.
The Eternal Son of Paradise: For the first time in human records clearly designated and personally identified.
The unique Conjoint Actor: The concept of the Third Person of Deity is both unique and original in the Urantia Papers.
The Paradise Trinity: In The Urantia Book the Paradise Trinity finds its only present-day identification and recognition.
The Central Geographic Residence of Deity: For the first time the world knows exactly where God lives.
The absolute Isle of Paradise: The original concept of Paradise as the absolute of non-deity reality.
Multiple Creator Sons: Recognition of more than 700,000 Creator Paradise Sons.
Concept of the Absolutes: The concept of the Unqualified, Universal, and Deity Absolutes is original with the Urantia Book.
Doctrine of Evolutionary Deity: While I saw an intimation of finite Deity in one of Pratt's books about the time of the coming of the Urantia Papers, I am sure that the concepts of the Supreme Being and God the Ultimate are original.
Concept of the Triunities: The Triunities are an original Urantia concept.
Havona Universe and Natives: The billion world picture of Havona and its inhabitants is a wholly new and original concept.
The Concept of Space: Notwithstanding the theory of an "exploding cosmos," the space concept of The Urantia Book is new and original.
The Grand and Master Universes: The overall concept of the Master cosmos is not only original, but it far transcends all previous ideas.
The Seven Orders of Trinity-Created Days: While one of these seven orders, the "Ancients of Days," is mentioned in the Bible, the whole presentation is both new and original.
The Paradise Sons of God: The story of Magisterial and Trinity Teacher Sons in addition to Creator Sons is entirely original with The Urantia Book.
Trinitized Sons of God: The story and technique of the trinitization of divine Sons is unique and original in the Urantia Papers.
The Seven Master Spirits: While the Bible makes mention of seven Spirits of God, it is only in The Urantia Book that these Spirits are identified and their work fully described.
The Vast Family of the Conjoint Actor: The vast and far- flung family of the Infinite Spiritþsupernaphim, seconaphim, Solitary Messengers are but briefly foreshadowed by the Biblical narrative of seraphim and cherubim.
The Universal Circuits: The gravity, personality, spirit, and mind circuits are original teaching of The Urantia Book.
Universal Reflectivity - Majeston: The amazing story of universal reflectivity is a wholly new an original presentation of the Urantia revelation.
Power Directors- Force Organizers: The whole concept of intelligent and purposive control of cosmic energy is original with The Urantia Book.
Evolution of Energy - Matter: While some phases of the Urantia story of the evolution of energy may have been foreshadowed by scientific discovery, nevertheless, the concept as a whole is new as presented in the Urantia Papers.
The Ultimaton: At the time of the suggestion of the Ultimaton in the Urantia Papers, I had never heard of such a concept in scientific literature. During the past five or six years, I have noted several different intimations of the possible existence of some physical factor analogous to the ultimaton concept .
Origin of the Solar System: While the Urantia narrative of the origin of the solar system includes some features of the Moulton-Chamberlain theory, the whole story is so complete and unique as to make it practically an original presentation.
The Architectural Worlds: Worlds made to order of specifications is original with The Urantia Book.
Universe Administration: From the inhabited world to the management of the grand universe the administrative scheme of The Urantia Book is entirely new.
The Life Carriers: Nothing like the concept of the Life Carriers has ever been suggested to humankind in all past history.
Origin of the Human Race: While the Urantia story of the origin of the human race validates doctrine of evolution, nevertheless, it presents such a detailed and unique narrative as to constitute an all but original presentation of human origins.
Origin of the Colored Races: The Urantia story of the origin of the Sangik races is the only such narrative in existence.
Source and Nature of Personality: While The Urantia Book, like science, fails to define personality, it does designate its origin and gratifyingly portrays its magnificent destiny.
The Concept of Thought Adjusters: While the Bible talks about the "true light which lighteth every man coming into the world," the story of Thought Adjusters as revealed in the Urantia Papers is so replete and unique as to constitute a new and original story.
Evolution of the Soul: The concept of the origin, nature, and evolution of the soul is original with The Urantia Book.
Identification of the Holy Spirit: Pointing out the Holy Spirit as the presence of the Local Universe Mother Spirit is altogether new and original in the Urantia Papers.
The Seven Adjutant Spirits: While the Bible makes mention of seven spirits and in Isaiah partially identifies them, the Urantia narrative is so full and unique as to make it an original presentation.
Local Universe Sons of God: The whole story of Local Universe Sons is new and original.
The Ascension Plan þ Be You Perfect: While Jesus propounded the mandate "Be you perfect," etc., the unfoldment of the Paradise ascension plan in The Urantia Book is an all but new and original concept.
The Seven Mansion Worlds: While the Master alluded to the "mansion worlds," the replete story of their nature and province is both new and original.
The Morontia Concept: The whole morontia conceptþthe stage between the material and the spiritualþis new and original.
Celestial Artisans and Reversion Directors: Both of these concepts are new in The Urantia Book. The concept of celestial play and spiritual humor is all but new.
Concept of Permanent Citizenship: This is wholly original with The Urantia Book.
The Urantia Midwayers: While the Old Testament does refer to the "Nephilim" the citation is so indefinite as to constitute the Urantia story of the midwayers as a new and original narrative.
The Superhuman Planetary Government: The story of the planetary functions of the Most Highs, the Reserve Corps, and the planetary seraphim is original, notwithstanding the allusion to the work of the Most Highs in the Bible.
The Billions of Inhabited Worlds: At the time of the arrival of the Urantia Papers, there was no literature dealing with inhabited worlds other than our world. The idea was new. In recent years we frequently run across speculations regarding other inhabited planets.
Clarification of Sin and Rebellion: The unique clarification of sin and rebellion is original with The Urantia Book.
Identification of Adam and Eve: The factual narrative of the legendary story of Adam and Eve is original.
Clarification of Melchizedek: The Melchizedek story as clarified in the Urantia narrative is really a new and original concept.
Concept of the Ages of Light and Life: The fruition of mortal evolution as portrayed in the concept of the ages of light and life is altogether new and original.
A Unified History of Urantia: Nowhere else in all the world can you find a consistent and unified history of our world. For the first time we have a chronology of human affairs.
Diseases: The Book presents a new and original explanation of microbic diseases.
Antigravity: The whole concept of antigravity-is unique and original with the Urantia Papers. Only during the last year has any scientist promulgated a theory of antigravity.
Jesus' Birthday: For the first time during the Christian era, we know the real birthday of Jesus--August 21, 7BC.
Experimental Planet: The fact that Urantia was a decimal planetþthat the Life Carriers had permission to attempt new features of biologic evolution. This is information not heretofore known on the planet.
The Evolution of Religion: While you can read much about the evolution of religion on Urantia, nevertheless, the straightforward story told in the Urantia Papers is unique and original.
The Unique Reason for Jesus' Bestowal: The Urantia Book presents a new, unique, and original reason for Jesus' life and death on our world.
A Chronological Story of Jesus' Life: The Book presents the only complete story of Jesus' life on this world.
Identification of the Twelve Apostles: The Urantia story is the first time the confusion of the 12 Apostles has been straightened out.
The Unique Story of Mary: The story of Mary, the mother of Jesus, is unique and original.
The Water and the Wine: As far as I know, The Urantia Book presents an original explanation of this supposed miracle.
Explanation of Unintended Miracles: The Book presents a possible explanation of numerous unintended miracles.
Jesus' Attitude toward Art and Athletics: The Master's attitude toward art and athletics is nowhere else revealed.
The Sermon on the Mount: I am, of course, not familiar with all the literature on the Sermon on the Mount. But as far as I know, the interpretation of this address in The Urantia Book is new and original.
The Women' s Evangelistic Corps: This story is new, notwithstanding the brief mention of this matter in the New Testament.
Rodan of Alexandria: This whole story is original with The Urantia Book.
The Story of Abner: The unique story of the head of John the Baptist's apostles is original with the Urantia Papers.
David Zebedee' s Intelligence Corps: This entire story is exclusively Found in The Urantia Book
http://urantia-book..../sadcrit.htm#18


We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#6 -Scott-

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Posted 12 March 2013 - 05:14 PM

What evidence would there be that the Koran was influenced by the Cynics?


No human author is without his complexities. The writers of the bible were all influenced by pagan religion, by superstition, philosophy etc. Paul introduced stoic concepts in the bible, his stoic concepts are not "Catholic concepts". Its the same with any theologic literature written, they borrow from other people all the time. You honestly believe that the Koran is filled with just "muslim concepts"? There is no evidence that suggests all concepts in the Koran originated from soley muslim religionists and there is no evidence that these muslim religionists only relied on their muslim way of thinking. Everyone borrows even if they are not aware of doing it, it happens.

Edited by -Scott-, 12 March 2013 - 05:17 PM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#7 Howard509

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 02:30 AM

No human author is without his complexities. The writers of the bible were all influenced by pagan religion, by superstition, philosophy etc. Paul introduced stoic concepts in the bible, his stoic concepts are not "Catholic concepts". Its the same with any theologic literature written, they borrow from other people all the time. You honestly believe that the Koran is filled with just "muslim concepts"? There is no evidence that suggests all concepts in the Koran originated from soley muslim religionists and there is no evidence that these muslim religionists only relied on their muslim way of thinking. Everyone borrows even if they are not aware of doing it, it happens.


I think you may have a good point.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#8 Howard509

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 10:22 AM

No human author is without his complexities. The writers of the bible were all influenced by pagan religion, by superstition, philosophy etc. Paul introduced stoic concepts in the bible, his stoic concepts are not "Catholic concepts". Its the same with any theologic literature written, they borrow from other people all the time. You honestly believe that the Koran is filled with just "muslim concepts"? There is no evidence that suggests all concepts in the Koran originated from soley muslim religionists and there is no evidence that these muslim religionists only relied on their muslim way of thinking. Everyone borrows even if they are not aware of doing it, it happens.


The only problem with this line of reasoning is that when we look at sources on the Cynics outside the Urantia Book, what evidence is there that they taught what the Urantia Book says they did?

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#9 Howard509

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 10:40 AM

What ultimately matters is whether the Urantia Book helps you to have a relationship with Jesus. Even Martin Gardner, an outspoken skeptic of the Urantia Book, said the Urantia Book was either written by celestial beings in a position to know or by someone who knew the New Testament by heart and the culture in which Jesus lived. I don't believe that source studies should be threatening to an honest person's faith.

I started reading the Urantia Book, not to be converted into a new religion, but because it already agreed with my views on the person and teachings of Jesus, the afterlife, the era of light and life as the endpoint of human evolution, on science, life on other planets, etc. I think it's good for us to see how human sources influenced the papers, but this need not prevent us from seeing how the Spirit of Truth may have influenced them as well.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#10 -Scott-

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 10:59 AM

It matters if you view the urantia book as a revelation. If you think it's the work of a human you won't take the message to heart as strongly as someone who views it as a revelation. The person who views it as a revelation will gain far more insight as a result. It's the parts of the book that don't match up with your views which are most important. The book is trying to change the way you think about everything, its not meant as an affirmation to your preconceived opinions and beliefs.

What evidence is there that these Cynics didn't say this? There is simply no way to prove they didn't unless we get a time machine.

Edited by -Scott-, 13 March 2013 - 11:50 AM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#11 Howard509

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 01:22 PM

It matters if you view the urantia book as a revelation. If you think it's the work of a human you won't take the message to heart as strongly as someone who views it as a revelation.


If the celestials used human sources, we shouldn't be afraid to find out what those sources were and how they were used.

The person who views it as a revelation will gain far more insight as a result. It's the parts of the book that don't match up with your views which are most important. The book is trying to change the way you think about everything, its not meant as an affirmation to your preconceived opinions and beliefs.


Reading the Urantia Book over the past three years has certainly challenged some of my views and opinions. There are very few parts that I am not in agreement on, and even in those cases, I am open to the possibility of those parts being correct. There's no reason why we can't, like Meredith Sprunger, read the Urantia Book as a revelation but with a scholarly eye.

What evidence is there that these Cynics didn't say this? There is simply no way to prove they didn't unless we get a time machine.


Robert Ernest Hume compiled an anthology of excerpts from the world's great religious texts entitled Treasure-House of the Living Religions (1931). Excerpts from Sikhism and Islam were lifted from Hume's book, in almost the order in which they appear in the Hume book, and put into the UB's section on Cynicism. While I admit the possibility that some otherwise unknown Cynic philosopher influenced the Koran, that would still raise the question of why the passages on Sikhism and Islam from Hume's book appear in almost the same order in the Urantia Book's description of Cynicism:
http://www.squarecir...kinprogress.pdf

Edited by Howard509, 13 March 2013 - 01:23 PM.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#12 -Scott-

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Posted 13 March 2013 - 06:10 PM

While I admit the possibility that some otherwise unknown Cynic philosopher influenced the Koran, that would still raise the question of why the passages on Sikhism and Islam from Hume's book appear in almost the same order in the Urantia Book's description of Cynicism:


Whats the issue with that?? I don't see whats wrong with that at all. They admit to taking human concepts.
If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#13 Absonite

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Posted 16 March 2013 - 07:06 PM

None of this issue about source material for the UB means diddly squat to me at all.

I honestly and truly could NOT care any less about any of it.


I also don't need to be a True Believer in the UB as 100% truth and fact before I can get and benefit from the relevant essence of the reality at which it points. I accept that some people must take it all, or leave it all. But I am not any of those people - and those people are undeniably not me.


Regardless of what the source material was, I remain focused on the stuff that matches my experience, and motivates my progress toward fusion with my Fragment.


Everything else, I put aside.

Edited by Absonite, 16 March 2013 - 07:23 PM.


#14 Howard509

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Posted 17 March 2013 - 10:47 AM

None of this issue about source material for the UB means diddly squat to me at all.

I honestly and truly could NOT care any less about any of it.


I also don't need to be a True Believer in the UB as 100% truth and fact before I can get and benefit from the relevant essence of the reality at which it points. I accept that some people must take it all, or leave it all. But I am not any of those people - and those people are undeniably not me.


Regardless of what the source material was, I remain focused on the stuff that matches my experience, and motivates my progress toward fusion with my Fragment.


Everything else, I put aside.


Thank you for this post. That's exactly the point I am trying to get across by the title of this thread.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#15 Howard509

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 12:22 AM

Some skeptics have claimed the sleeping subject never existed and that it was just a clever way for Sadler to cover up his own authorship of the papers. Skeptics often ask why the original handwritten manuscripts and the typed copies were destroyed if Sadler had nothing to hide. How do we answer this question of why they were destroyed?

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#16 Howard509

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 01:36 AM

This was written by Kwan Choi, a trustee of the Urantia Foundation, in answer to my questions:


I have no interest in converting skeptics, but if you are on the fence weighing the validity of various evidences, I will offer a little.
There are people who say Jesus never existed and Holocaust never happened.
The SS was, I hear, a stock broker or speculator or something like that in Chicago. I tried to read Sadler's books, but they never aroused my interest; they were boring. I could not put down the UB. They were not written by the same writer.
Since the SS was mumbling during his sleep, I think Sadler needed a stenographer (Christy). Ordinary people cannot write fast enough.
The first stage is the conversion from SS' sayings into stenographic notes, which ordinary people cannot read. In the second stage, these initial notes had to be typed by Christy (because she would be the best person to decode her notes; others could be hired, but there would be more errors) so that Forum members may read them. (Wieman lived very close to the Foundation, and I am reasonably sure he and Hartshorne visited the Foundation many times, but I was not there.)
I do not think Christy was a highly educated historian; she had a bunch of typos. For instance, Pantaenus (paper 195) was misspelled. Sadler did not recognize it either; he was not a historian. So it took a while before this typo was corrected.
The third stage was proofreading the typewritten pages; they were voluminous, especially during the second period till 1934 or 1935, which produced all 196 papers + Foreword.
If I had been in the same situation, I would have destroyed stenographic notes; the early typescripts would have been destroyed also because they had typos. After getting feedback from the Forum members, minor paragraphs were often added to illustrate or to give examples, and the Forum members read revised papers.
The fourth stage was to convert the typewritten text to plates to be used for printing. They were told to destroy the copies of these plates. (The finished plates had been preserved for a while, but destroyed in the end, I think.)
Fortunately, some of the copies with proof reader's marks were not destroyed. A woman was a proof reader, and Kellogg was the final approver. When typos were found, they had to patch up some portions and make patch plates.
More than 10 years ago, I had a chance to read the Foreword, plus the first two parts (up to p648) of these copies of early plates. They were dated by proofreaders. I personally verified all such pages with typos and the patch up pages with correct spelling, dated 1944.
Whether these copies are destroyed since or not, I do not know. I had compiled all the typos and had written an article about these corrections, but it is unpublished.
Is this convincing?
Kwan


A response like this helps to reinforce my belief in the Urantia Book. It's not claiming the Urantia Book to be a perfect revelation and it even admits the possibility of there being some minor human contributions to the text. At the same time, it emphasizes the sleeping subject as a conduit for celestial beings in a manner similar to the readings of Edgar Cayce.

Edited by Howard509, 18 March 2013 - 01:47 AM.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#17 Howard509

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Posted 18 March 2013 - 02:34 AM

If you look at the church fathers, especially the hesychasts, spiritual truth was not found through logical argumentation but in the personal experience of prayer and meditation. It's very different from the Cartesian understanding of truth that Westerners forced on the world. In the same token, the truth of the Urantia Book can only be verified in one's personal experience. As long as there is no unequivocal proof against it as a revelation, that's how people will come to its truth.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#18 Howard509

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 11:30 AM

Of all parts of the Urantia Book, the middle papers for me speak the most to the divine authorship of the Urantia Book. It's hard for me to believe that a mere mortal alone wrote Growth of the Trinity Concept, Deity and Reality, and the Thought Adjuster papers without any sort of divine inspiration.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#19 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 04:16 PM

Howard - The Revelation was not written by divinely inspired mortals but by celestials themselves in the first 3 parts (Part IV is authored by the midwayer commission as I recall). None of the authors were inspired either but witness and participant and/or as instructed and informed by those who were. Inspired writing comes through the mortal mind to be influenced and distorted by the experience, memories, symbols, etc. within mortal mind. In other words what the mind thusly receives is often more inspired than what that mind then communicates in writing or voice or picture, etc.

There are many wonderful works that are inspired and we are to be inspired and aspire truth, beauty, and goodness. The UB purports to contain over 1000 of humankind's greatest achievements in such inspirations. But herein lies the difference between personal revelation and epochal revelation. The epochal speaks to all and is for the all but is learned and experienced by the each as must personal revelation be so as well. But the epochal does not come through a mortal's mind making the message/revelation clearer. Still constrained by language to be sure but without the distortions and incompleteness and inexperience and ignorance inherent in any mortal mind.

You may believe what you will Friend. But those who believe the Revelation is a revelation do not believe it is inspired....or written by or through an inspired mortal mind in any regard, piece, or parcel. Peace.
Peace be upon you."

#20 Howard509

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 06:29 PM

Howard - The Revelation was not written by divinely inspired mortals but by celestials themselves in the first 3 parts (Part IV is authored by the midwayer commission as I recall). None of the authors were inspired either but witness and participant and/or as instructed and informed by those who were. Inspired writing comes through the mortal mind to be influenced and distorted by the experience, memories, symbols, etc. within mortal mind. In other words what the mind thusly receives is often more inspired than what that mind then communicates in writing or voice or picture, etc.

There are many wonderful works that are inspired and we are to be inspired and aspire truth, beauty, and goodness. The UB purports to contain over 1000 of humankind's greatest achievements in such inspirations. But herein lies the difference between personal revelation and epochal revelation. The epochal speaks to all and is for the all but is learned and experienced by the each as must personal revelation be so as well. But the epochal does not come through a mortal's mind making the message/revelation clearer. Still constrained by language to be sure but without the distortions and incompleteness and inexperience and ignorance inherent in any mortal mind.

You may believe what you will Friend. But those who believe the Revelation is a revelation do not believe it is inspired....or written by or through an inspired mortal mind in any regard, piece, or parcel. Peace.


As usual, you are totally missing the point. What I said is that it's unlikely that mere humans alone wrote these papers, not that they weren't from divine authorship. Thanks for the bloviating.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin





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