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evil sin and iniquity


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#1 Nelson G

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Posted 05 January 2013 - 09:19 PM

Reading through paper 148 I am intrigued by section #4 where Jesus gave detailed instruction to Thomas in regard to evil, sin and iniquity.
At the end of section #4 Jesus instructs Thomas to "speak not to the others concerning these matters until after I shall have returned to the Father."
Why do you suppose that Jesus insructed Thomas in this way? I am missing it.
Possibly something to do with Jesus revealing to Thomas about his vanquishing the sinful rebels?
Possibly bringing to Thomas attention some events of the Adamic mission?
Your thoughts?
Life often gives us our greatest gifts brilliantly disguised as our worst nightmares.

#2 Bonita

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 09:26 AM

It was because Jesus exposed the fact that original sin and the story of Adam and Eve in the Hebrew scriptures was myth. Jesus did not openly debunk the Hebrew scriptures, he only taught the truth about them to those who sought it from him. Remember, he did the same with Nathaniel and also told him not to tell the others because he thought they were not ready to hear it. Jesus always said that you should not take away from people's beliefs but add to them, so truth will push out error. It would have been devastating for devout Jews at that time, including the apostles, to find out that their scriptures were man-made stories and not stories given to them from God through Moses and therefore infallible. It was, and still is, a delicate matter.

#3 -Scott-

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:59 AM

Very true Bonita. Jesus came to awaken people to the 4th revelation. He didn't really go out and set out to give to much information to people that they couldn't handle. He could have revealed everything in the urantia book and more but he is not going to overload the circuits :), he just wanted to take them to the next step. Which is what the urantia book is doing as well, the u.b is giving us just as much revelation as we can handle. One thing I just realized in the urantia book is that many times they will use the bible and expand on it in a similar way that Jesus would expand on the thoughts of the people in its time. They will take human concepts and just add bits of amazing new revelation to expand our mind.

Edited by -Scott-, 06 January 2013 - 12:02 PM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#4 Meredith Van Woert

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 01:36 PM

Reading through paper 148 I am intrigued by section #4 where Jesus gave detailed instruction to Thomas in regard to evil, sin and iniquity.
At the end of section #4 Jesus instructs Thomas to "speak not to the others concerning these matters until after I shall have returned to the Father."
Why do you suppose that Jesus insructed Thomas in this way? I am missing it.
Possibly something to do with Jesus revealing to Thomas about his vanquishing the sinful rebels?
Possibly bringing to Thomas attention some events of the Adamic mission?
Your thoughts?


Hi Nelson,

I think it's also important to remember that the incarnation of Michael was for all of Nebadon, and when he provided universe teachings he was instructing others in this universe as well.


The reference in Section 4 informs us that what Jesus taught Thomas was later mentioned by Thomas after Jesus' resurrection. Jesus said much more to Thomas in that interview which is not revealed.



All this and much more Jesus said to Thomas, and much of it the apostle comprehended, although Jesus admonished him to "speak not to the others concerning these matters until after I shall have returned to the Father." And Thomas did not mention this interview until after the Master had departed from this world. P.1661 - §2



Thomas' private conversation with Jesus started out with this question from Thomas:

"Why is it necessary for men to be born of the spirit in order to enter the kingdom? Is rebirth necessary to escape the control of the evil one? Master, what is evil?" P.1660 - §0



Jesus answers by stating the laws of relation to the Father's will - attitudes toward the Father and his universe - by defining evil, sin and iniquity. Jesus establishes a baseline for Thomas and for us and he explains the nature of persons ("subject to inherent evil tendencies") before the "new-birth." Thomas had an inquiring mind and he wanted to know more, and Jesus gave him more and gave us more too - both here on Urantia and elsewhere.



Here is the beginning of Jesus' response to Thomas:


"Do not make the mistake of confusing evil with the evil one, more correctly the iniquitous one. He whom you call the evil one is the son of self-love, the high administrator who knowingly went into deliberate rebellion against the rule of my Father and his loyal Sons. But I have already vanquished these sinful rebels. Make clear in your mind these different attitudes toward the Father and his universe. Never forget these laws of relation to the Father's will:


"Evil is the unconscious or unintended transgression of the divine law, the Father's will. Evil is likewise the measure of the imperfectness of obedience to the Father's will.


"Sin is the conscious, knowing, and deliberate transgression of the divine law, the Father's will. Sin is the measure of unwillingness to be divinely led and spiritually directed.


"Iniquity is the willful, determined, and persistent transgression of the divine law, the Father's will. Iniquity is the measure of the continued rejection of the Father's loving plan of personality survival and the Sons' merciful ministry of salvation." P.1660 - §1




The section is a great read! Thanks, Nelson, for bringing it to our attention and thanks for your inquiry.



All the best,
Meredith

#5 Nelson G

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:15 PM

The reference in Section 4 informs us that what Jesus taught Thomas was later mentioned by Thomas after Jesus' resurrection. Jesus said much more to Thomas in that interview which is not revealed.



All this and much more Jesus said to Thomas, and much of it the apostle comprehended, although Jesus admonished him to "speak not to the others concerning these matters until after I shall have returned to the Father." And Thomas did not mention this interview until after the Master had departed from this world. P.1661 - §2

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

I had it in mind to attempt to find out just how, where and to whom - Thomas had mentioned this interview at a later date.
Life often gives us our greatest gifts brilliantly disguised as our worst nightmares.

#6 Coop

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 08:17 PM

All this and much more Jesus said to Thomas, and much of it the apostle comprehended, although Jesus admonished him to "speak not to the others concerning these matters until after I shall have returned to the Father." And Thomas did not mention this interview until after the Master had departed from this world. P.1661 - §2

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

'' I had it in mind to attempt to find out just how, where and to whom - Thomas had mentioned this interview at a later date.''

HI Brother Nelson G
The Answer Seems to be in the Quote an "speak not to the others''
and Means , Refers To The OTHER Apostles .
Also The '' how, where and to whom ''
Would mean When The Apostles Gatherd Together In Private
Where They Discussed With Each Other The Various Things that The Master
Revealed an told Them Each Privately in Secret , and then shared with each other
at some time later after His resurrection. imo

#7 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 11 January 2013 - 08:42 AM

It would not surprise me if Jesus told each something for each based on their need. Thomas was the doubter, eh?

(1561.6) 139:8.6 Jesus enjoyed Thomas very much and had many long, personal talks with him. His presence among the apostles was a great comfort to all honest doubters and encouraged many troubled minds to come into the kingdom, even if they could not wholly understand everything about the spiritual and philosophic phases of the teachings of Jesus. Thomas’s membership in the twelve was a standing declaration that Jesus loved even honest doubters.

(1562.4) 139:8.10 Thomas had some very bad days; he was blue and downcast at times. The loss of his twin sister when he was nine years old had occasioned him much youthful sorrow and had added to his temperamental problems of later life. When Thomas would become despondent, sometimes it was Nathaniel who helped him to recover, sometimes Peter, and not infrequently one of the Alpheus twins. When he was most depressed, unfortunately he always tried to avoid coming in direct contact with Jesus. But the Master knew all about this and had an understanding sympathy for his apostle when he was thus afflicted with depression and harassed by doubts.

Or, perhaps it was a "need to know" Jesus perceived to strengthen this pillar of action.....once committed beyond his doubts and analysis.

(1838.1) 167:4.7 When they could not persuade him to refrain from going into Judea, and when some of the apostles were loath even to accompany him, Thomas addressed his fellows, saying: “We have told the Master our fears, but he is determined to go to Bethany. I am satisfied it means the end; they will surely kill him, but if that is the Master’s choice, then let us acquit ourselves like men of courage; let us go also that we may die with him.” And it was ever so; in matters requiring deliberate and sustained courage, Thomas was always the mainstay of the twelve apostles.
Peace be upon you."

#8 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 11:38 AM

Seems Thomas was not the only apostle to be given "personal" teachings:

(1767.4) 159:4.2 “Nathaniel, you have rightly judged; I do not regard the Scriptures as do the rabbis. I will talk with you about this matter on condition that you do not relate these things to your brethren, who are not all prepared to receive this teaching.


Makes you wonder if each did not get the personalized attention of Thomas and Nathaniel.
Peace be upon you."

#9 Bonita

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Posted 26 January 2013 - 12:16 PM

Makes you wonder if each did not get the personalized attention of Thomas and Nathaniel.


Of course Jesus gave them each individualized attention just like he does today with all of us.


194:2.6 Next, the Spirit of Truth came to help the believer to witness to the realities of Jesus' teachings and his life as he lived it in the flesh, and as he now again lives it anew and afresh in the individual believer of each passing generation of the spirit-filled sons of God.

Jesus said to Levi about the new teacher:


181:2.14 And when the new teacher comes into your heart, follow on as he will lead you and let your brethren see — even all the world — what the Father can do for a hated tax-gatherer who dared to follow the Son of Man and to believe the gospel of the kingdom.

Jesus said to James Zebedee about the new teacher:

181:2.15 When the new teacher comes, let him teach you the poise of compassion and that sympathetic tolerance which is born of sublime confidence in me and of perfect submission to the Father’s will. Dedicate your life to the demonstration of that combined human affection and divine dignity of the God-knowing and Son-believing disciple.

Jesus said to Philip about the new teacher:

181:2.20 In the meantime, become as a little child in the kingdom of the spirit and permit me, as the spirit of the new teacher, to lead you forward in the spiritual kingdom. And in this way will I be able to do much for you which I was not able to accomplish when I sojourned with you as a mortal of the realm. And always remember, Philip, he who has seen me has seen the Father.

Jesus said to Nathaniel about the new teacher:

181:2.24 Fear not; that which you now fail to comprehend, the new teacher, when he has come, will reveal to you throughout the remainder of your life on earth and on through your training in the eternal ages.

Those who receive the new teacher even today receive the same individual care and attention from our Master. I know this as a fact.




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