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#41 Bonita

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:54 AM

Scott,

IMO the Infinite Mother Spirit is basically following the similar pattern of being that the Creative Spirit functions in on her world, and the Eternal Son is participating as well in experiental reality, but perhaps not to the same same extreme degree the Infinite Spirit.


I think you meant that the Creative Spirit is following the pattern of the Infinite Mother Spirit, not the other way around. The Creative Spirits of the seven superuniverses of time and space are daughters of the Infinite Mother Spirit who resides in Paradise.

The Isle of Paradise is at the center of all creation. The Isle of Paradise is circled by three concentric rings of satellite spheres, 7 in each circuit, 21 in total. The innermost circuit spheres are of the Universal Father, the middle are of the Eternal Son and the outer circuit contains the spheres of the Infinite Spirit which are the headquarters for each of the Seven Master Spirits. Next comes the Central Universe which is located outside of the Isle of Paradise and its surrounding rings of 21 satellite spheres. Another name for the Central Universe is Havona. It contains one billion inhabited spheres in seven concentric circuits orbiting clockwise. Surrounding Havona and hiding it from view are the counter rotating dark gravity bodies, the inner belt rotating counterclockwise the outer belt rotating clockwise. Outside of all of this are the seven superuniverses.

The Isle of Paradise is the abode for the Paradise Trinity, of which the Infinite Spirit is a member (known by a myriad of names and titles). The personal influence of the Infinite Spirit is contained within the Central Universe. His influence outside of the Central Universe, past those dark gravity bodies, is in the Seven Master Spirits.

Scott, the word mother does not mean experiential. It means source, genesis, point of origination. I'll repeat this again: None of the members of the Trinity are experiential. That means that the Universal Father, the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit, regardless of what name or title you chose to give them, are all existential. The Supreme is experiential, but not the Trinity or any of its members.

Think of the word existential as a synonym for perfect and/or complete and experiential as a synonym for imperfect and/or incomplete. The Trinity cannot be imperfect or incomplete, therefore it cannot be experiential. The Supreme is incomplete, therefore it is experiential. Does that make any sense?

0:1.18 Divinity may be perfect — complete — as on existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of time-space evolution; or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona levels of existential-experiential relationships.

Edited by Bonita, 07 February 2013 - 08:41 AM.


#42 -Scott-

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 12:24 PM

God the 7-fold is creature identifying diety. Creatures are not existential.Also I never said that mother diety is the Trinity. Havona is the "pattern universe" of the 7 super universes. Whenever there is a "whole" there is a individuality of the whole. The individuality of the "whole" in the super universes is the mother. So yes the Creative Mother Spirit is patterned after the Infinite Mother Spirit.

You say that the supreme is experiental because it is incomplete. Yet Havona is complete and it is a experiental universe....

Edited by -Scott-, 06 February 2013 - 12:41 PM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#43 Absonite

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:25 PM

What exactly do you mean by experiential, -Scott-?


And please - don't quote me either the UB or a dictionary.
In your own words, I want to know what you mean by that word when you use it.


Because right now, it's almost as if you're speaking another language here.

Seriously.

Edited by Absonite, 06 February 2013 - 03:29 PM.


#44 Bonita

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 04:33 PM

You say that the supreme is experiental because it is incomplete. Yet Havona is complete and it is a experiental universe....


So you think Havona is experiential huh? Then are these quotes spreading untruths?

116:0.3 Experiential growth implies creature-Creator partnership — God and man in association. Growth is the earmark of experiential Deity: Havona did not grow; Havona is and always has been; it is existential like the everlasting Gods who are its source.

32:3.1 Havona is an existential, perfect, and replete universe, surrounding the home of the eternal Deities, the center of all things. The creations of the seven superuniverses are finite, evolutionary, and consistently progressive.
I agree with Absonite that you aren't making sense. Sometimes it seems that you're reading a different book

#45 -Scott-

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 08:15 PM

What exactly do you mean by experiential, -Scott-?


And please - don't quote me either the UB or a dictionary.
In your own words, I want to know what you mean by that word when you use it.


Because right now, it's almost as if you're speaking another language here.

Seriously.



Tell me where I have went wrong?? I see both you and Bonita think that the Central Universe is just Existential. In which case I never said it wasn't existential. But its also an experiential universe. I like Bonita's method of using quotes because it seems to work slightly better than writing out thoughts, so after this long winded post that shows Havona is existential and experiential I will answer any questions you have in my own words.

Regarding Havona natives...



4:4.14.Havoners have both optional present and future unrevealed destinies. And there is a progression of native creatures that is peculiar to the central universe, a progression that involves neither ascent to Paradise nor penetration of the superuniverses. This progression to higher Havona status may be suggested as follows:
14:4.15.1. Experiential progress outward from the first to the seventh circuit
.


Regarding mind on Havona...

3 - (42:10.7) On Paradise, mind is absolute; in Havona, absonite; in Orvonton, finite. Mind always connotes the presence-activity of living ministry plus varied energy systems, and this is true of all levels and of all kinds of mind. But beyond the cosmic mind it becomes increasingly difficult to portray the relationships of mind to nonspiritual energy. Havona mind is subabsolute but superevolutionary; being existential-experiential, it is nearer the absonite than any other concept revealed to you. Paradise mind is beyond human understanding; it is existential, nonspatial, and nontemporal. Nevertheless, all of these levels of mind are overshadowed by the universal presence of the Conjoint Actor—by the mind-gravity grasp of the God of mind on Paradise.




5. Life in Havona 13 - (0:7.4) 2. Experiential—beings actualizing in the post-Havona present but of unending existence throughout all future eternity.





0:1.18.Divinity may be perfect—complete—as on existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of time-space evolution; or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona levels of existential-experiential relationships.



Now that I feel that I have established that the Central Universe is not just Existential but also Experiential. Hopefully I can move on to the topic about how its possible for the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit to directly experience experiential reality. The Urantia Book calls this aspect of God (God the 7-fold). Its through God the 7-fold that these Diety can directly experience experiental reality.

These quotes are taken from the papers describing god the 7-fold


118:0.1.CONCERNING the several natures of Deity, it may be said: 118:0.8.7. The Absolute is existential-experiential self.




118:0.13.Each successive universe age is the antechamber of the following era of cosmic growth, and each universe epoch provides immediate destiny for all preceding stages. Havona, in and of itself, is a perfect, but perfection-limited, creation; Havona perfection, expanding out into the evolutionary superuniverses, finds not only cosmic destiny but also liberation from the limitations of pre-evolutionary existence.



Regarding the Trinity which is where Havona natives come from..


14:4.10.The Havona natives are all the offspring of the Paradise Trinity





35 - (0:12.9) The philosophers of the universes postulate a Trinity of Trinities, an existential-experiential Trinity Infinite..



(0:1.18) Divinity may be perfect—complete—as on existential and creator levels of Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of time-space evolution; or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona levels of existential-experiential relationships.



3 - (0:1.14) Deity may be existential, as in the Eternal Son; experiential, as in the Supreme Being; associative, as in God the Sevenfold; undivided, as in the Paradise Trinity.
associative like (existential-experiental) type associative
.


Associative... (existential-experiental)


And finally we find that the Infinite Spirit is present in this Universe as the Infinite Mother Spirit.


14:6.34.The Universe Mother Creator remembers Paradise and Havona as the place of her origin and the home of the Infinite Mother Spirit, the abode of the personality presence of the Infinite Mind.

Edited by -Scott-, 06 February 2013 - 08:30 PM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#46 Absonite

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 08:35 PM

I'm sorry, -Scott-
At this point I truly cannot make any sense of what you're talking about.

Quoting the UB doesn't help.
Quoting a dictionary won't help.

What I need to begin to see that your making any sort of sense here at all here - that you're not just randomly using words without any regard to meaning - is to know what exactly YOU mean by the word *experiential* as YOU have been using it in this conversation.

No more quotes, please.
They're not helping at all.

Edited by Absonite, 06 February 2013 - 08:35 PM.


#47 -Scott-

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 09:14 PM

I'm sorry, -Scott-
At this point I truly cannot make any sense of what you're talking about.


Well I can explain a bit here. 1st Bonita did not believe that the authors used designations for different facets of Deity. So I provided quotes that show that they are in fact doing this. I even found a quote that states this directly. Then Bonita stated that the Central Universe was just Existential so I went and found quotes that disprove that notion. I would have gotten to your question more directly if all these tangents wouldn't have came up. I also would answer in my own words but Bonita is going to rail off a thousand quotes every time I do, so I thought I would return the favor.

I am trying to get around to the subject you asked about though. Does this make sense?

Experiential in my own words: Deriving something from experience.

Edited by -Scott-, 06 February 2013 - 09:21 PM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#48 brooklyn_born

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 09:48 PM

I think I get the gist of what Scott is claiming. The Central world also is experiential seeing as its own indigenous population is "experiencing" life through the circuits. Basically, some of this information is implied or inferred, and not directly given. You have to delve somewhat beyond the literal understanding of the text to catch it.

It stands to reason that the very shores the Central deities stand on facilitate this experiential existence. And if that world conducive to experiential reality besides the existential then it is safe to assume that those deities are having some kind of central universe experience. How? Personally, I am not sure but I would venture to say perhaps they avail themselves of this experience through their Central Universe children.

BB

Edited by brooklyn_born, 06 February 2013 - 10:42 PM.


#49 Bonita

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 10:09 PM

Scott, what you're calling experiential on Havona is not Havona. You're describing life and personality relationships which are present on Havona. I'm not talking about what goes on there. I'm talking about Havona. Heck, we're all going to be there someday. Havona can be populated by non-existential beings, but Havona, itself, is existential. Don't you see how tangential your thinking is? There's absolutely nothing in TUB that says that Havona is anything other than existential. All of your quotes are about something else, most of them completely unrelated. It's mind boggling to me and I am not gifted enough to help you understand what you're doing. Maybe you can read these quotes again and instead of running off trying to disprove them, let them soak in. What is there to argue with here? It's black and white, clear as clear can be. Nothing to dispute. Havona is existential. Sheesh.

116:0.3 Experiential growth implies creature-Creator partnership — God and man in association. Growth is the earmark of experiential Deity: Havona did not grow; Havona is and always has been; it is existential like the everlasting Gods who are its source.

32:3.1 Havona is an existential, perfect, and replete universe, surrounding the home of the eternal Deities, the center of all things. The creations of the seven superuniverses are finite, evolutionary, and consistently progressive.

#50 brooklyn_born

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 10:19 PM

Scott posted this reference but I think it should be reinforced on the thread. It brings a level of clarity to the discussion that is well needed...

0:1.18 Divinity may be perfect -- complete -- as on existential and creator levels of
Paradise perfection; it may be imperfect, as on experiential and creature levels of timespace
evolution; or it may be relative, neither perfect nor imperfect, as on certain Havona
levels of existential-experiential relationships.

So is it safe to say the DIVINITY of the Paradise Deities is based in existential-experiential relationships as noted in their divine children, denizens of Havona (rhetorical ;-)) Perhaps, Scott, you need to throw in the word "Divinity" as an appellation to the Deities when qualifying them as Experiential beings, yes?

BB

Edited by brooklyn_born, 06 February 2013 - 10:20 PM.


#51 -Scott-

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:19 PM

Accidently wrote 2 posts...Mods feel free to delete this one whenever.

Edited by -Scott-, 06 February 2013 - 11:29 PM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#52 -Scott-

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:24 PM

I think I get the gist of what Scott is claiming. The Central world also is experiential seeing as its own indigenous population is "experiencing" life through the circuits. Basically, some of this information is implied or inferred, and not directly given. You have to delve somewhat beyond the literal understanding of the text to catch it.


Yes that is what I am saying and a bit more, I haven't even gotten to the circuits of Havona, so that is a good catch. Its not only the people who are native to this world that are experiental and the ascendent mortals who are experiental but it also the Diety who are present here who are existential and experiental, these deity are functioning through God the 7-Fold are "creature-identifying" deity. This entire Central Universe is where the Infinite Spirit literally ministers as a (existential-experiental deity) and so does the Eternal Mother Son.

I agree that Havona is perfect and existential, never once did I say it wasn't !!! I am just saying that this is not the entire picture of the Central Universe, the beings of Havona are literally part of the Central Universe, all is connected by the "whole". IMO there is an all pervading imminence of deity within the Central Universe that is existential-experiental. Obviously the Central Universe as a structure and creation does not change and is existential. But the beings who were born perfect and eternal develop a relationship to experiental reality.

Whenever there is a cosmic system such as a Universe. There is a "whole". The cosmic relationships and people within are included in that "whole" so the individuality of the "whole" IMO is existential-experiental.


Bonita: It's mind boggling to me and I am not gifted enough to help you understand what you're doing




Its mind boggling to me that you created a rationalization scheme that egnores/twists this paragraph. I just wish I was gifted enough to help you understand.

98.6) 9:1.1 The Third Source and Center is known by many names, all designative of relationship and in recognition of function: As God the Spirit, he is the personality co-ordinate and divine equal of God the Son and God the Father. As the Infinite Spirit, he is an omnipresent spiritual influence. As the Universal Manipulator, he is the ancestor of the power-control creatures and the activator of the cosmic forces of space. As the Conjoint Actor, he is the joint representative and partnership executive of the Father-Son. As the Absolute Mind, he is the source of the endowment of intellect throughout the universes. As the God of Action, he is the apparent ancestor of motion, change, and relationship.

Edited by -Scott-, 06 February 2013 - 11:56 PM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#53 Bonita

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:58 PM

Its mind boggling to me that you created a rationalization scheme that egnores/twists this paragraph. I just wish I was gifted enough to help you understand.

98.6) 9:1.1 The Third Source and Center is known by many names, all designative of relationship and in recognition of function: As God the Spirit, he is the personality co-ordinate and divine equal of God the Son and God the Father. As the Infinite Spirit, he is an omnipresent spiritual influence. As the Universal Manipulator, he is the ancestor of the power-control creatures and the activator of the cosmic forces of space. As the Conjoint Actor, he is the joint representative and partnership executive of the Father-Son. As the Absolute Mind, he is the source of the endowment of intellect throughout the universes. As the God of Action, he is the apparent ancestor of motion, change, and relationship.



Scott, I know that the Deities have multiple functions and attributes and that TUB gives the Deities names that describe those attributes and functions. But they switch and swap those names around all the time and sometimes give the same name to more than one Deity if the attribute is similar. Why can't you understand that? This is a total waste of time.

#54 -Scott-

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 11:59 PM

I just thought of an easy way to explain myself. No where in the urantia book does it say that the Central Universe is Exisential. Yet when we take a look at the Micro level in terms of place there is only existential places. There is no experiental place. If we take a step back and look at it from the Macro. The Central Universe is "One", and that is where that "whole" comes into play. The Central Universe is exisential-experiental.



Scott, I know that the Deities have multiple functions and attributes and that TUB gives the Deities names that describe those attributes and functions.


Well etleast we can agree on something. :)

But they switch and swap those names around all the time


Yes they do and IMO they don't serendipitously switch these names, there are clues in every paragraph I provided that relate specifically to that designation. Its not obvious at first but there is definitely a pattern. The only reason I keep on bringing this up, is because I know some readers when they see something like Infinite Mother Spirit. Just glaze over that and say whatever its just another name to describe the Infinite Spirit. But the quote I provided shows that every name is related to a certain facet of that deity. So when they talk about Havona and mention the Infinite Mother Spirit. Our minds should start to churn, and we should ask ourselves, what is the connection between Havona and the Infinite Mother Spirit designation? Its not in there just for poetic fun.

Its the same with "God the Mother". No other designation like this is meant just symbolically, for example "God the Father". Everyone takes that name designation literally and seriously. Yet for some reason readers look at the term "God the Mother" and don't think about that statement literally. The authors of the u.b are trying to get us to think literally about all the designations and words in the book.

Edited by -Scott-, 07 February 2013 - 12:26 AM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#55 Absonite

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 03:51 AM

-Scott-

No where in the urantia book does it say that the Central Universe is Exisential.


32:3.1 Havona is an existential, perfect, and replete universe, surrounding the home of the eternal Deities, the center of all things.

Edited by Absonite, 07 February 2013 - 03:51 AM.


#56 Absonite

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 04:02 AM

So, -Scott-


When you say that Havona is experiential - you are saying that Havona is "derived from experience".
Derived means comes (or results) from.

Therefore, you're saying that Havona comes-results from experience.

That's what you mean by the word you've been using, with regard to Havona.
You're saying that experience is the source (or origin) from which Havona comes (or results).

You're not just throwing that word experiential around without any meaning.
When you use that word, you mean exactly what you told me the word means to you.


I am, quite literally, taking this at your word.

Edited by Absonite, 07 February 2013 - 04:33 AM.


#57 brooklyn_born

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 07:30 AM

This topic seems to be taking on the same aspect as the following, greatest routine in history, which by the way gives an example of how the conjoint actor interacts with us. If one makes note of the actual routine, you can see how this topic is actually playing out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M&feature=player_embedded


Ah yes! I remember watching Abbott and Costello as a little kid every Sunday afternoons. Cool memories! Nice analogy, EEB!!

#58 Bonita

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 09:21 AM

No where in the urantia book does it say that the Central Universe is Exisential.


Now this is frustrating. Let me try again with quotes this time. Here are the first seven I could find, and there are many more, which clearly say that Havona and the central universe are the same thing:

12:1.10 Havona, the central universe, is not a time creation; it is an eternal existence. This never-beginning, never-ending universe consists of one billion spheres of sublime perfection and is surrounded by the enormous dark gravity bodies. At the center of Havona is the stationary and absolutely stabilized Isle of Paradise, surrounded by its twenty-one satellites. Owing to the enormous encircling masses of the dark gravity bodies about the fringe of the central universe, the mass content of this central creation is far in excess of the total known mass of all seven sectors of the grand universe.

0:0.5 Orvonton is one of the seven evolutionary superuniverses of time and space which circle the never-beginning, never-ending creation of divine perfection — the central universe of Havana. At the heart of this eternal and central universe is the stationary Isle of Paradise, the geographic center of infinity and the dwelling place of the eternal God.

0:3.22 Coexistent with the differentiation of the Son from the Father, and in the presence of Paradise, there appeared the person of the Infinite Spirit and the central universe of Havana.

3:2.15 Otherwise, outside of Paradise and the central universe of Havona, everything pertaining to God is limited by the evolutionary presence of the Supreme, conditioned by the eventuating presence of the Ultimate, and co-ordinated by the three existential Absolutes — Deity, Universal, and Unqualified. And God’s presence is thus limited because such is the will of God.

4:0.2 It is easy to deduce that the purpose in creating the perfect central universe of Havona was purely the satisfaction of the divine nature.

8:1.7 The Infinite Spirit eternalizes concurrently with the birth of the Havona worlds, this central universe being created by him and with him and in him in obedience to the combined concepts and united wills of the Father and the Son. The Third Person deitizes by this very act of conjoint creation, and he thus forever becomes the Conjoint Creator.

15:1.4 In this age and as direction is regarded on Urantia, super universe number one swings almost due north, approximately opposite, in an easterly direction, to the Paradise residence of the Great Sources and Centers and the central universe of Havona.

Now that we have established that Havona and the central universe are one and the same thing, can you agree that these two quotes establish that Havona is existential, and since the central universe is the same thing as Havona, that the central universe is also existential? It should be straightforward.

32:3.1 The only creation that is perfectly settled is Havona, the central universe, which was made directly by the thought of the Universal Father and the word of the Eternal Son. Havona is an existential, perfect, and replete universe, surrounding the home of the eternal Deities, the center of all things. The creations of the seven superuniverses are finite, evolutionary, and consistently progressive.

116:0.3 Experiential growth implies creature-Creator partnership — God and man in association. Growth is the earmark of experiential Deity: Havona did not grow; Havona is and always has been; it is existential like the everlasting Gods who are its source.

#59 -Scott-

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 10:17 AM

Hmmm good points. It would seem that it's only the beings within that are experiential and that as a creation it is perfect and nothing else. So I was wrong in using that designation. :) I should have just said specifically what was functioning as experiential and not included everything.

Anyways my motive for talking about this world is to bring up the existential-experiential nature of Deity through god the 7 fold. Which I believe I have provided enough quotes for. Though they probably got lost in translation. This experiental nature is IMO what allows the Infinite Spirit to augment her own existential nature with experiental nature at the same time. I think this is also the case with the Eternal Mother Son.

IMO even though mother type diety is bestowed by the Trinity and comes from God the Mother. At the Infinite functional level the Father is the Mother. He is that great I Am from which all comes from. Including experiental deity. IMO

I already know what Bonita is going to say to this so I might as well start replying to it now.

Bonita: Scott, the word mother does not mean experiential. It means source, genesis, point of origination. I'll repeat this again: None of the members of the Trinity are experiential. That means that the Universal Father, the Eternal Son and the Infinite Spirit, regardless of what name or title you chose to give them, are all existential. The Supreme is experiential, but not the Trinity or any of its members.

Think of the word existential as a synonym for perfect and/or complete and experiential as a synonym for imperfect and/or incomplete. The Trinity cannot be imperfect or incomplete, therefore it cannot be experiential


3 - (0:1.14) Deity may be existential, as in the Eternal Son; experiential, as in the Supreme Being; associative, as in God the Sevenfold; undivided, as in the Paradise Trinity.

118:0.1.CONCERNING the several natures of Deity, it may be said: 118:0.8.7. The Absolute is existential-experiential self.

Associative (existential and experiential).

Bonita: The Trinity cannot be imperfect or incomplete, therefore it cannot be experiential

Than what do you make of this?

35 - (0:12.9) The philosophers of the universes postulate a Trinity of Trinities, an existential-experiential Trinity Infinite..

Edited by -Scott-, 07 February 2013 - 11:09 AM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#60 Guest_EEB aka AASB-AWSW_*

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Posted 07 February 2013 - 11:19 AM

existent-ial

experient-ial

The use of these words, variant within context, in the UB, tends to make me think of them as such: where existent-ial is the most compressed root of a pattern which still retains the meaning of a pattern to be, or should be, expressed via experient-ial action.

In the mind, the smallest pattern that exists, as transfered to different being minds, located in different universes, where their environmental existence expands to their variable experience patterns - when realized.

If one acts out a specific pattern or motion combined with the root memory which exists in the mind, the environment connects both the existential with the experiential to realize a common memory of having had a combined action.

Therefore, the Havona existent pattern is the root action in all other super-universes regardless of differences due to environment or location. Different but the same but not comparable until experienced, which then becomes realizable within reality or relative to one and the other.

Edited by EEB aka AASB-AWSW, 07 February 2013 - 11:20 AM.





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