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Wilfred Kellogg, the sleeping subject? So what?


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#1 Howard509

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 02:09 AM

I found this article on the internet that cites Emma Christensen as a source on the identity of the sleeping subject:

Although they were written sometime before 1932, I first became aware of the Urantia Papers in 1971. Over the years I have read and re-read the material and always find it both comprehensive and thorough in its concept. In 1975 I was fortunate to have met and interviewed Emma Christensen, who was present during the transfer of knowledge and actually transcribed most of the material from its sources. I will try to recall my conversation with her to explain what I learned about the origins of this remarkable collection of information. Some of the minor details may be incorrect, but the actual story was unforgettable...

Recently there has been some controversy about whether Wilfred was the actual "sleeping subject". All I can say is the above story was told to me by Emma Christensen in 1975. I figured she ought to have known and had no reason to deceive me. Anyway, it's a good story.
http://www.viewzone.com/event99.html


Usually, when Wilfred Kellogg is mentioned as the sleeping subject, Urantians reject it out of hand. My question is, so what if Kellogg was the sleeping subject? How would that detract from the Urantia Book as a revelation?

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#2 Geoff

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:17 AM

I agree Howard,

The mechanism for transmission is irrelevant and varied once initiated (papers changed in the locked safe) etc.
To me the credibility hinged on the science content e.g. the day/date combinations.
Once I accepted the book as credible the remaining information was just plain exciting.

Cheers
Geoff

#3 -Scott-

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 11:52 AM

Anyone can create a conspiracy theory.
If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#4 Nelson G

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 12:46 PM

The mechanism for transmission is irrelevant and varied once initiated (papers changed in the locked safe) etc.
To me the credibility hinged on the science content e.g. the day/date combinations.
Once I accepted the book as credible the remaining information was just plain exciting.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Geoff,
I disagree and do believe that the mechanism for transmission is indeed relevant.
Dr Saddler stated that everything that we want to know about the process is written within the Urantia Book and as I read through it I discover the many references that describe the mechanism and it is fascinating. It is a process of revelation.
We are fascinated about the process of Christ incarnating as a human and little do we understand but we believe it to be revelant. Is the development of TUB any different in that respect?
It is a testament to cooperation between human and divine.
Life often gives us our greatest gifts brilliantly disguised as our worst nightmares.

#5 Geoff

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 10:14 PM

HI Nelson,

You may be right.
I guess the key is to not to let questions, concerns or uncertainties about the mechanism of transmission, interfere with the believe ability of the content.

#6 Howard509

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Posted 05 December 2012 - 05:31 PM

Anyone can create a conspiracy theory.


Since Emma Christensen was so important to the origin and early dissemination of the Urantia Book, her testimony would be more than a conspiracy theory.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#7 Howard509

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 05:56 PM

I find this very interesting:

“How did the Urantia papers come through?” Our answer to this question is partial to say the least, but we are not gullible in our research. Some evidence, which we have found, will be told in our own words.

We found that it was possible to use a higher law than we commonly use in the world. This higher law was used between this world and the higher worlds in a common case we researched out regarding a dual-personality incident. This case we researched out did not leave any doubt on our part, so we could accept the idea concerning the Urantia papers coming through a channel that was a higher medium than our ordinary common “mediums”.

These Urantia papers were handled verbatim up to this point of our investigation. Dr. Sadler (whom we checked out personally) then had a stenographer make a copy of the papers that came through this human channel between the higher worlds and this world of ours. At no time was this stenographer given the ability or allowed to censure or change the papers at the time they came through from the upper worlds. The stenographer was only a stenographer who copied just what she was given and that was all.
http://urantiabook.o...ing_history.htm


Edited by Howard509, 08 December 2012 - 05:57 PM.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#8 Nelson G

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 07:13 PM

I am impressed by a book written by Saddler "The Mind at Mischief"
The bulk of the text tends to scientifically disprove all forms of auto-psychism and as the quote above uses the term " a higher medium" I would not confuse it with what we understand to be medium activities - a form of auto-psychism.
Then at the end of the text in the appendix Saddler talks about a peculiar case that he worked on starting in 1911 (He notes that eighteen years of study could not come up with an explaination so he rules out all forms of auto-psychism) and reading between the lines it is safe for me to believe he is talking about his sleeping subject and the Urantia revelation process. He does make a couple of interesting statements, one that the stenographer took notes - however he makes another interesting statement:
"The communications which have been written, or which we have had the opportunity to hear spoken, are made by a vast order of alleged beings who claim to come from other plantes to visit this world, to stop here as student visitors for study and observation when they are in route from one universe to another"
The book was published in 1929 so I hope it is ok to post the quote.
But then again, there is no mention of revelation, sleeping subject or the Urantia book so one can only assume.
Life often gives us our greatest gifts brilliantly disguised as our worst nightmares.

#9 Howard509

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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:24 PM

Watching people talk who claim to be channeling is really creepy. What were the characteristics of the sleeping subject that separated him from the channelers?

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#10 Nelson G

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Posted 16 February 2013 - 12:48 PM

My guess is that the sleeping subject was unique because of the way he was able to cope with the experience over two decades.
I doubt there was any channeling going on at all. He was able to sleep soundly through the entire revelation - thus "the sleeping subject"
Life often gives us our greatest gifts brilliantly disguised as our worst nightmares.

#11 Howard509

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 06:12 PM

What purpose did the sleeping subject serve to the revelation?

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#12 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:04 PM

A penetrating query. If there is an answer, it lies within the text of the Revelation as a presentation on the physical manifestation capabilities of midwayers, the TA, and other agents of spirit and morontia form. So far as I know the subject's actual role was not revealed....but it was he and his TA which worked somehow together to activate or be vehicle for some completely rational and nonmiraculous manifestation of materialism....the text. The subject did not dictate, voice, write, or create in any manner the text of the Revelation but if he were not mission-critical, then what? I'm hopeful others can present some potential mechanisms and relationships that might answer Howard. And consider how Sadler and the subject needed to be brought together logistically.....Sadler - the most superior of all choices for the facilitation of the Revelation! Poetic, ironic, brilliant, inspired by our unseen helpers. Life is filled by such intersections of potential.
Peace be upon you."

#13 Nelson G

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:12 PM

Beyond his ability to sleep soundly as well as cope, I had always assumed his adjuster and/or mind was somehow used. Considreing Saddler's statement I posted earlier "The communications which have been written, or which we have had the opportunity to hear spoken, are made by a vast order of alleged beings who claim to come from other plantes to visit this world, to stop here as student visitors for study and observation when they are in route from one universe to another" - I connot think of any other purpose for him.
I do not believe the sleeping subject was talking or writing.

Edited by Nelson G, 17 February 2013 - 07:18 PM.

Life often gives us our greatest gifts brilliantly disguised as our worst nightmares.

#14 Howard509

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:24 PM

Beyond his ability to sleep soundly as well as cope, I had always assumed his adjuster and/or mind was somehow used. Considreing Saddler's statement I posted earlier "The communications which have been written, or which we have had the opportunity to hear spoken, are made by a vast order of alleged beings who claim to come from other plantes to visit this world, to stop here as student visitors for study and observation when they are in route from one universe to another" - I connot think of any other purpose for him.
I do not believe the sleeping subject was talking or writing.


Were they heard spoken from the mouth of the sleeping subject by way of his Thought Adjuster?

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#15 Nelson G

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Posted 17 February 2013 - 07:51 PM

As Bradley confirmed for me: &quot;The subject did not dictate, voice, write, or create in any manner the text of the Revelation&quot; here are some related quotes that indeed are interesting to think about:</span></p>
425.1The gap between the material and spiritual worlds is perfectly bridged by the serial association of mortal man, secondary midwayer, primary midwayer, morontia cherubim, mid-phase cherubim, and seraphim. In the personal experience of an individual mortal these diverse levels are undoubtedly more or less unified and made personally meaningful by the unobserved and mysterious operations of the divine Thought Adjuster.</p>
(865.3) Midwayers vary greatly in their abilities to make contact with the seraphim above and with their human cousins below. It is exceedingly difficult, for instance, for the primary midwayers to make direct contact with material agencies. They are considerably nearer the angelic type of being and are therefore usually assigned to working with, and ministering to, the spiritual forces resident on the planet. They act as companions and guides for celestial visitors and student sojourners, whereas the secondary creatures are almost exclusively attached to the ministry of the material beings of the realm.</p>
(865.4) The 1,111 loyal secondary midwayers are engaged in important missions on earth. As compared with their primary associates, they are decidedly material. They exist just outside the range of mortal vision and possess sufficient latitude of adaptation to make, at will, physical contact with what humans call “material things.” These unique creatures have certain definite powers over the things of time and space, not excepting the beasts of the realm.</p>
(422.5)When assigned to a planet, cherubim enter the local courses of training, including a study of planetary usages and languages. The ministering spirits of time are all bilingual, speaking the language of the local universe of their origin and that of their native superuniverse. By study in the schools of the realms they acquire additional tongues. Cherubim and sanobim, like seraphim and all other orders of spirit beings, are continuously engaged in efforts at self-improvement. Only such as the subordinate beings of power control and energy direction are incapable of progression; all creatures having actual or potential personality volition seek new achievements.</p>
(422.6) Cherubim and sanobim are by nature very near the morontia level of existence, and they prove to be most efficient in the borderland work of the physical, morontial, and spiritual domains. These children of the local universe Mother Spirit are characterized by “fourth creatures” much as are the Havona Servitals and the conciliating commissions. Every fourth cherubim and every fourth sanobim are quasi-material, very definitely resembling the morontia level of existence.</p>
(1244.2) One of the most important things a destiny guardian does for her mortal subject is to effect a personal co-ordination of the numerous impersonal spirit influences which indwell, surround, and impinge upon the mind and soul of the evolving material creature. Human beings are personalities, and it is exceedingly difficult for nonpersonal spirits and prepersonal entities to make direct contact with such highly material and discretely personal minds. In the ministry of the guarding angel all of these influences are more or less unified and made more nearly appreciable by the expanding moral nature of the evolving human personality.</p>

Edited by Nelson G, 17 February 2013 - 07:56 PM.

Life often gives us our greatest gifts brilliantly disguised as our worst nightmares.

#16 menno

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 12:08 PM

A penetrating query. If there is an answer, it lies within the text of the Revelation as a presentation on the physical manifestation capabilities of midwayers, the TA, and other agents of spirit and morontia form. So far as I know the subject's actual role was not revealed....but it was he and his TA which worked somehow together to activate or be vehicle for some completely rational and nonmiraculous manifestation of materialism....the text. The subject did not dictate, voice, write, or create in any manner the text of the Revelation but if he were not mission-critical, then what? I'm hopeful others can present some potential mechanisms and relationships that might answer Howard. And consider how Sadler and the subject needed to be brought together logistically.....Sadler - the most superior of all choices for the facilitation of the Revelation! Poetic, ironic, brilliant, inspired by our unseen helpers. Life is filled by such intersections of potential.


I believe that this quote tells us about the mechanic's regarding how this was achieved:

Paper 114:7.6 "On many worlds the better adapted secondary midway creatures are able to attain varying degrees of contact with the Thought Adjusters of certain favorably constituted mortals through the skilful penetration of the minds of the latters' indwelling (And it was by just such a fortuitous combination of cosmic adjustments that these revelations were materialized in the English language on Urantia)........"

So, it appears that it took the combined efforts of a "better adapted" secondary midwayer attaining a certain degree of contact with the Thought Adjuster (indwelling the subject) and the mind of this "favorably constituted" subject,, to bring forth the Urantia Papers. And while all of this was going on; the sleeping subject was totally unaware ..totally unconscious...of the process.

Edited by menno, 18 February 2013 - 12:12 PM.


#17 Howard509

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:13 AM

If the sleeping subject never existed and was just used as a cover for Sadler and/or other human authors, how would we know? Since the sleeping subject's identity was never disclosed, do we have to just take on faith that he existed at all?

Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the sleeping subject never existed. I am simply asking on what historical evidence do we accept the existence of the sleeping subject. I would strongly appreciate whatever evidence can be presented in this thread.

Edited by Howard509, 23 March 2013 - 11:13 AM.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#18 Nigel Nunn

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 11:49 AM

Since the sleeping subject's identity was never disclosed, do we have to just take on faith that he existed at all?


I've never been much fussed about the mode of delivery. That Orvonton commission was commissioned to reveal a revelation... maybe the use of a disinterested 3rd party (sleeping subject) was deemed to be "least unsettling to the natives"?

Brings to mind those "first contact" away missions in Star Trek Next Gen. Think how careful, and gentle, they had to be :unsure:

Nigel

#19 Howard509

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 01:13 PM

The still doesn't answer, as a historical question, how we know the sleeping subject even existed in the first place.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#20 Bonita

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Posted 23 March 2013 - 02:21 PM

I agree with Nigel and others who say none of this matters.

The sleeping subject was asleep. His mind and personality were bypassed in order to prevent them from infiltrating the information given to the commission. All he was, was a physical body with a disinterested attitude and a tremendously experienced Thought Adjuster who could work with the Midwayers. We don't need to know him or even his Thought Adjuster, for that matter. He was just a vehicle with a mouth, lungs and larynx. All that is important is the information presented. You can accept it or reject it. All the rest is just ornaments on the tree, completely unnecessary to the tree. The only thing the ornaments do is make you think the tree is prettier.

If you really want to know, why don't you go to the public records, like the census, and find Sadler's name at 56 S 6th Ave., La Grange, IL? The sleeping subject rented an apartment on the same block. You can check all the names and see which one you like best. You'll never know for sure, but you'll feel like you've done something objective. A quick check on ancestry.com shows the following people all living together in 1910 at Sadler's house on 6th Ave., (Anna is Wm.'s sister-in-law, the others are boarders and Emily was a stenographer):

William S Sadler 34
Lena Kellogg Sadler 34
William S Sadler Jr. 2
Anna B Kellogg 32
Sarah M Willmer 24
Emily E Ulrich 21
Gwendolyn A Francis 26

They list all the neighbors on that street and the only person who was renting is Edward Everett Gore, a married 44 year old accountant. (I like that name because the initials are EEG.) But a city block has four streets, so you'd have to check the census for the other three streets. I'm too lazy to do that, but you could.




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