Jump to content


Photo

Melchizedek's Declaration about "Peace on Earth"

Peace

  • Please log in to reply
142 replies to this topic

#41 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:10 AM

True religion carries over from one age to another the worth-while culture and that wisdom which is born of the experience of knowing God and striving to be like him.... P.1087 - 8

This era has no such culture to carry over to the next age. If it is true that commerce is the peace-maker, then commerce must become a religion. And indeed it has. Commerce is the culture of this era. But commerce is also being demonized and vilified. None of this makes sense to me. Commerce can't be a religion unless it includes God; and how can that be? Commerce is humanitarian which is one of those grafted things.

102.7.4 True, many apparently religious traits can grow out of nonreligious roots. Man can, intellectually, deny God and yet be morally good, loyal, filial, honest, and even idealistic. Man may graft many purely humanistic branches onto his basic spiritual nature and thus apparently prove his contentions in behalf of a godless religion, but such an experience is devoid of survival values, God-knowingness and God-ascension. In such a mortal experience only social fruits are forthcoming, not spiritual. The graft determines the nature of the fruit, notwithstanding that the living sustenance is drawn from the roots of original divine endowment of both mind and spirit.

#42 Rick Warren

Rick Warren

    Rick Warren

  • Administrators
  • PipPip
  • 9,923 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 06 January 2013 - 11:32 AM

...Commerce can't be a religion unless it includes God; and how can that be?


When the profit motive is replaced by the service motive (and it's already begun), commerce makes its closest approach to living religion, no? It's religion applied to living. And the service motive is inherently peace enhancing.

#43 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 06 January 2013 - 01:41 PM

Posted ImageRick Warren, on 06 January 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

When the profit motive is replaced by the service motive (and it's already begun), commerce makes its closest approach to living religion, no? It's religion applied to living. And the service motive is inherently peace enhancing.


Not following you Rick. I'm not at all convinced that commerce is the closest approach to living religion. Living religion is religion of the spirit, no? Granted, a true religionist who is living out his/her religion will naturally engage in fair and honest commerce, but commerce is not living religion. Commerce has been around since the days of the Planetary Prince and we're not at peace yet, nor have we realized the brotherhood of man.

I agree that living religion involves loving service; but commerce, defined as buying and selling, is hardly religious. Some companies engage in customer service more wholeheartedly than others, but usually the motive is to improve business. Commerce, no matter how you cut it, is still buying and selling of material goods and services. It's material, not spiritual.

What commerce does to promote peace is to increase the awareness of the interdependence of nations and peoples. Eventually, mankind will realize that to jeopardize trade and commerce to part of the globe profoundly affects the welfare of the whole. The role commerce has in peace is to upstep philosophical thinking towards the true relationship between the parts and the whole. It's an evolutionary step and, in a way, an evolutionary trick used to teach the wisdom of cosmic citizenship (brotherhood).


12:7.11 Brotherhood constitutes a fact of relationship between every personality in universal existence. No person can escape the benefits or the penalties that may come as a result of relationship to other persons. The part profits or suffers in measure with the whole. The good effort of each man benefits all men; the error or evil of each man augments the tribulation of all men. As moves the part, so moves the whole. As the progress of the whole, so the progress of the part. The relative velocities of part and whole determine whether the partis retarded by the inertia of the whole or is carried forward by the momentum of the cosmic brotherhood.

#44 Rick Warren

Rick Warren

    Rick Warren

  • Administrators
  • PipPip
  • 9,923 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 06 January 2013 - 02:05 PM

Not following you Rick. I'm not at all convinced that commerce is the closest approach to living religion. Living religion is religion of the spirit, no? Granted, a true religionist who is living out his/her religion will naturally engage in fair and honest commerce, but commerce is not living religion. Commerce has been around since the days of the Planetary Prince and we're not at peace yet, nor have we realized the brotherhood of man.

I agree that living religion involves loving service; but commerce, defined as buying and selling, is hardly religious. Some companies engage in customer service more wholeheartedly than others, but usually the motive is to improve business. Commerce, no matter how you cut it, is still buying and selling of material goods and services. It's material, not spiritual.

What commerce does to promote peace is to increase the awareness of the interdependence of nations and peoples. Eventually, mankind will realize that to jeopardize trade and commerce to part of the globe profoundly affects the welfare of the whole. The role commerce has in peace is to upstep philosophical thinking towards the true relationship between the parts and the whole. It's an evolutionary step and, in a way, an evolutionary trick used to teach the wisdom of cosmic citizenship (brotherhood).


12:7.11 Brotherhood constitutes a fact of relationship between every personality in universal existence. No person can escape the benefits or the penalties that may come as a result of relationship to other persons. The part profits or suffers in measure with the whole. The good effort of each man benefits all men; the error or evil of each man augments the tribulation of all men. As moves the part, so moves the whole. As the progress of the whole, so the progress of the part. The relative velocities of part and whole determine whether the partis retarded by the inertia of the whole or is carried forward by the momentum of the cosmic brotherhood.


Yes, good points, Bonita. But If the religious can be equated with the sacred, then perhaps we can better agree. From the Master's discourse on religion, 155:6:

...Never forget there is only one adventure which is more satisfying and thrilling than the attempt to discover the will of the living God, and that is the supreme experience of honestly trying to do that divine will. And fail not to remember that the will of God can be done in any earthly occupation. Some callings are not holy and others secular. All things are sacred in the lives of those who are spirit led; that is, subordinated to truth, ennobled by love, dominated by mercy, and restrained by fairness--justice. The spirit which my Father and I shall send into the world is not only the Spirit of Truth but also the spirit of idealistic beauty.... P.1732 - 4



#45 Rick Warren

Rick Warren

    Rick Warren

  • Administrators
  • PipPip
  • 9,923 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:27 AM

Ran across this, from the Master's prescient mind, yet another qualification for peace on Urantia. From 165:6:


"...But if the servant is slothful and begins to say in his heart, `My master delays his coming,' and begins to mistreat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with the drunken, then the lord of that servant will come at a time when he looks not for him and, finding him unfaithful, will cast him out in disgrace. Therefore you do well to prepare yourselves for that day when you will be visited suddenly and in an unexpected manner. Remember, much has been given to you; therefore will much be required of you. Fiery trials are drawing near you. I have a baptism to be baptized with, and I am on watch until this is accomplished. You preach peace on earth, but my mission will not bring peace in the material affairs of men--not for a time, at least. Division can only be the result where two members of a family believe in me and three members reject this gospel. Friends, relatives, and loved ones are destined to be set against each other by the gospel you preach. True, each of these believers shall have great and lasting peace in his own heart, but peace on earth will not come until all are willing to believe and enter into their glorious inheritance of sonship with God. Nevertheless, go into all the world proclaiming this gospel to all nations, to every man, woman, and child...."





How soon will that be?

#46 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 07 January 2013 - 10:59 AM

The quote says that all things are scared in the lives of those who are spirit led. You have to be spirit led first and commerce is not the means by which people of this earth will become spirit led. Fair and enlightened commerce may bring peace if peace is defined as the absence of war. It will not, in and of itself, bring the peace that passes all understanding. Commerce is a civilizer of man but it can never be a religion.

Personal religious experience must come first. Those who are living a true religious life will then bring their appreciation of truth, beauty and goodness into commerce and that is what is meant by the saying that all things are sacred in the lives of these people. In the spirit of service, they will bring enlightened fairness into commerce thereby making it a civilizing contribution to mankind and an inspiration for the brotherhood of man.

5:5.4 Social service is the result of moral thinking and religious living.

99:2.4 Religionists are of no more value in the tasks of social reconstruction than nonreligionists except in so far as their religion has conferred upon them enhanced cosmic foresight and endowed them with that superior social wisdom which is born of the sincere desire to love God supremely and to love every man as a brother in the heavenly kingdom. An ideal social order is that in which every man loves his neighbor as he loves himself.

99.1.4 Religion has no new duties to perform, but it is urgently called upon to function as a wise guide and experienced counselor in all of these new and rapidly changing human situations. Society is becoming more mechanical, more compact, more complex, and more critically interdependent. Religion must function to prevent these new and intimate interassociations from becoming mutually retrogressive or even destructive. Religion must act as the cosmic salt which prevents the ferments of progression from destroying the cultural savor of civilization. These new social relations and economic upheavals can result in lasting brotherhood only by the ministry of religion.

81.6.27 Ideals elevate the source of the social stream. And no stream will rise any higher than its source no matter what technique of pressure or directional control may be employed. The driving power of even the most material aspects of a cultural civilization is resident in the least material of society’s achievements. Intelligence may control the mechanism of civilization, wisdom may direct it, but spiritual idealism is the energy which really uplifts and advances human culture from one level of attainment to another.

#47 Bradly aka/fanofVan

Bradly aka/fanofVan

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest USA
  • Interests:Gardening, sustainable agriculture/micro-farming, history, philosophy, behavioral psych, economics (quit laughing), the blues, learning from children.

Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:25 PM

Bonita, I would temper/comment on your position the following way: first - successful commerce is supposed to lead to a capital environment which elevates the 16 hour a day near slave into greater personal and free time to eventuate into the blossoming of the arts, and socialization that is denied all but the very wealthiiest in earlier times...so individual and planetary progress can be attained by the multiplying "profits" or efficiencies. The profit efficiencies drive technologies within commerce to provide an ever increasing safety, stability, and leisure so mortals may actually "choose" from something besides survival or death. And we have experienced this.

Second - such economic/social progress brings other choice priorities to the increasing number of holders/earners of capital and thusly, philanthropy is BORN. And we have experienced this. But now, most capital "re-directed" to the service of humanity is becoming far more democratized and decentralized. Indeed, disastor relief and disease/medical aid and food distribution and housing are all expanding expressions of these "social" dollars and capital. I am beginning to believe that the angels are using (not causing) our planet's geology and climatology to redirect this "liesure" capital and our governments away from conflicts and toward population protection, survival, and various forms of this disaster response and relief with the "surplus" capital the commerce system has delivered. There's plenty of money - its just poorly mismanaged and prioritized both IMO. I agree with Rick here - there's plenty of evidence to suggest both more capital per capita and more service oriented distribution of it.

Third - all the denaro spent on service by nonprofits enters the commerce system, both profit and nonprofit, creating jobs, both profit and nonprofit, as it redeploys capital from those who have to those who do not. This transitional cycle from profit to service is well underway. But it will take far more time and I do not understand how the total motivation for capital will be replaced by a pure service motive...but we are taught this is the normal evolutionary planetary progress cycle so there is no surprise that we might see evidence of the evolution, as unpredictable as it is. More and more are giving more and more and doing so without receiving services, goods, or profits for such transactions. We are learning...something.

There are new gears synchronizing in new ways to unite people around the globe and just as instant global communication is exploding too. What might these two tangental forces do when they intersect? Perhaps a critical mass which accelerates progress? Materialism and secularism must be transcended but can be so only at or beyond a certain stage of development for enough individuals enmasse to effect our planet. Certainly each soul must not wait for its own transcendence beyond material/secular priorities but the planet requries MOST individuals to attain such an enlightened state. I see evidence that conciously or unconciously, more and more capital is being voluntarily directed away from personal profit. This is a good thing, no?

Edited by Bradly aka/fanofVan, 07 January 2013 - 04:28 PM.

Peace be upon you."

#48 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 07 January 2013 - 04:45 PM

Brad,

None of what you said is exclusive to true religion of the spirit. All of what you said can be attained by humanism alone. Rick made the statement, "When the profit motive is replaced by the service motive (and it's already begun), commerce makes its closest approach to living religion . . . " My point is that the service motive, without God, cannot be religious.

p40:4 2:5.12 When man loses sight of the love of a personal God, the kingdom of God becomes merely the kingdom of good.

Also, we still need the profit motive because we continue to have slothful free-loaders.

71:6.2 In economics, profit motivation is to service motivation what fear is to love in religion. But the profit motive must not be suddenly destroyed or removed; it keeps many otherwise slothful mortals hard at work. It is not necessary, however, that this social energy arouser be forever selfish in its objectives.

#49 Rick Warren

Rick Warren

    Rick Warren

  • Administrators
  • PipPip
  • 9,923 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 07 January 2013 - 05:24 PM

My point is that the service motive, without God, cannot be religious.


That sounds right, I hadn't much thought of the service motive ever being motivated by pure altruism, but it is certainly possible. Secularists can and do good works....My point is that true religion can be everywhere, it's a state of being. That's my interpretation of Jesus' statement about 'all things are sacred', at least.

#50 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 07 January 2013 - 07:06 PM

My point is that true religion can be everywhere, it's a state of being. That's my interpretation of Jesus' statement about 'all things are sacred', at least.


Yeah, that's true although I'd say that true religion is more than a state of being. True religion must act, which is why a true religionist engaged in commerce will be motivated to be fair and service minded. But just because someone is service minded doesn't mean that he/she is also experiencing true religion. Motivations for social service are myriad.

p1126:4 102:7.4 True, many apparently religious traits can grow out of nonreligious roots. Man can, intellectually, deny God and yet be morally good, loyal, filial, honest, and even idealistic. Man may graft many purely humanistic branches onto his basic spiritual nature and thus apparently prove his contentions in behalf of a godless religion, but such an experience is devoid of survival values, God-knowingness and God-ascension. In such a mortal experience only social fruits are forthcoming, not spiritual. The graft determines the nature of the fruit, notwithstanding that the living sustenance is drawn from the roots of original divine endowment of both mind and spirit.

p68:07 Sociability results from moral and religious living but does not necessarily lead to higher levels of religious experience: Social service is the result of moral thinking and religious living. Morality does not biologically lead to the higher spiritual levels of religious experience.

#51 Bradly aka/fanofVan

Bradly aka/fanofVan

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest USA
  • Interests:Gardening, sustainable agriculture/micro-farming, history, philosophy, behavioral psych, economics (quit laughing), the blues, learning from children.

Posted 08 January 2013 - 08:46 AM

Language!! :huh: Guess I misunderstood somebody....

Rick: "When the profit motive is replaced by the service motive (and it's already begun), commerce makes its closest approach to living religion"

Bonita: " I'm not at all convinced that commerce is the closest approach to living religion."

My response was in support that commerce is finally approaching the metamorphosis to the service motive or economy on a planetary basis, not that all service motive is spiritual to those who freely redirect capital to their fellows. While the motive of each determines the spiritual content or moral response, the aggregate shift from pure profit and self motivation in the application of capital would seem to indicate a growing population of concern for others....and this is evidence of many someone's quickening spirit IMO. These are not hopes and prayers or best wishes.....today we are seeing the brotherhood of selfless concern and action on behalf of total strangers in strange lands, as well as neighbors helping neighbors. And many, if not most, of those who so give, and without material reward, are indeed religionists acting according to their religion. Are we to believe that this rising tide of giving and kindness is without the spirit guiding the giver but is simply a moral response? I'm not buying it. There has been a global shift of capital deployment against the best interests of the capital deployed and many agencies (NGO) and many professionals and lay folk have created response networks and filled warehouses full of food, medicine, and housing all delivered by volunteers who pay their own freight to deliver the goods. Who can say to the motive? TUB tells us....we must judge by others actions as only Father can judge the heart or intent. The actions indicate a solid improvement and shift in priority, motive, and action to me.....a spiritual one.

I understood Rick to be saying this too, that commerce is approaching, finally, its closest point to the shift or transformation to the service motive....not that there is or can be a spirituality of commerce itself. Bonita is not incorrect but I'm unsure we're talking about the same point? My confusion is legendary though, so perhaps I misunderstood after all.

;)
Peace be upon you."

#52 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 08 January 2013 - 10:32 AM

There has been a global shift of capital deployment against the best interests of the capital deployed and many agencies (NGO) and many professionals and lay folk have created response networks and filled warehouses full of food, medicine, and housing all delivered by volunteers who pay their own freight to deliver the goods. Who can say to the motive?



Brad, that's philanthropy of private individuals and non-profit organizations designed for that purpose. Non-profits are not commerce and trade. Commerce and trade is about the exchange of goods and services, which usually involves some sort of currency. There's a huge difference between non-profits, which are taking the place of the Church, and commercial business. For centuries the Church was the primary source of charity, and we know what TUB says about that.

I understood Rick to be saying this too, that commerce is approaching, finally, its closest point to the shift or transformation to the service motive....not that there is or can be a spirituality of commerce itself.


Goodwill among men has been around forever. The Church was the biggest benefactor of the poor for millennia, private citizens have been philanthropists ever since there has been private wealth; however, businesses generally engage in service when it is in the best interest of their business. It may look like charitableness, and sometimes it is, but the bottom line is usually the interest of the business and how it is perceived by the purchasing world. Citizens often punish businesses who don't support their pet interests just as they reward those who do (recall Chick-fil-A). Then there are individuals and private groups of people who band together to do good works, but sometimes they go awry. For instance, the warehouses filled with stuffed toys in Newton, CT. Now the town is left with the expense and labor of dealing with tons of stuff that nobody wants.

Government has become the final arbiter in all of this, itself punishing and rewarding businesses according to a self-determined humanistic ideology. Yes, because of increased communication we have become more aware of the needs of others and therefore the outpouring of aid is probably approaching record levels, but there is no evidence that all this rises any higher than level two or three of the golden rule:

2. The level of the feelings. This plane is one level higher than that of the flesh and implies that sympathy and pity would enhance one's interpretation of this rule of living.
3. The level of mind. Now come into action the reason of mind and the intelligence of experience. Good judgment dictates that such a rule of living should be interpreted in consonance with the highest idealism embodied in the nobility of profound self-respect.


In order for commerce, defined as the activity of buying and selling, to reach the next level of the golden rule, buying and selling would have to become an unselfish devotion to the welfare of others in addition to the raising of capital. We may be moving in that direction, but I don't see buying and selling reaching that level unless everyone involved is truly spiritually motivated, and that time is long in the future. And then, there are still two more levels to go . . . .

4. The level of brotherly love. Still higher is discovered the level of unselfish devotion to the welfare of one's fellows. On this higher plane of wholehearted social service growing out of the consciousness of the fatherhood of God and the consequent recognition of the brotherhood of man, there is discovered a new and far more beautiful interpretation of this basic rule of life.

I think it's great to be idealistic, but that is still only level three. It's better than level one, and it shows progress, but businesses engaged in commerce and trade are not going to become non-profit organizations any time soon. We still need capital and capitalism. Where, exactly, do you think non-profits get their money? From capitalists who have capital.


Quotes in defense of capital:

69:5.15 Though capital has tended to liberate man, it has greatly complicated his social and industrial organization. The abuse of capital by unfair capitalists does not destroy the fact that it is the basis of modern industrial society. Through capital and invention the present generation enjoys a higher degree of freedom than any that ever preceded it on earth. This is placed on record as a fact and not in justification of the many misuses of capital by thoughtless and selfish custodians.

69:9.3 The later capital-accumulation and property-inheritance mores were a distinct social advance. And this is true notwithstanding the subsequent gross abuses attendant upon the misuse of capital.

72:5.1 On this unique continent the workers are increasingly becoming shareholders in all industrial concerns; every intelligent laborer is slowly becoming a small capitalist.

81:5.5 Society thus becomes a co-operative scheme for securing civil freedom through institutions, economic freedom through capital and invention, social liberty through culture, and freedom from violence through police regulation.

81:6.6 2. Capital goods. Culture is never developed under conditions of poverty; leisure is essential to the progress of civilization. Individual character of moral and spiritual value may be acquired in the absence of material wealth, but a cultural civilization is only derived from those conditions of material prosperity which foster leisure combined with ambition.

#53 Bradly aka/fanofVan

Bradly aka/fanofVan

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest USA
  • Interests:Gardening, sustainable agriculture/micro-farming, history, philosophy, behavioral psych, economics (quit laughing), the blues, learning from children.

Posted 08 January 2013 - 06:15 PM

Bonita....we're getting there. Agreed that #4 is the target to begin the transformation ultimately from profit motive to service motive. Capitalism and profit motive has begun to deliver "freedom" of choice to the masses and not just the "priveleged" (successful by blood/family, by skill/trade, or good fortune). And this expanding freedom is also expanding the redirection or redeployment of capital/labor away from self (the owner/earner/holder of capital) in new ways outside of both government and church.

As to evidence of moving beyond good will or morality, I can only say that in my charitable work with Habitat and Scouts and the local food pantry and the Salvation Army over the decades that those I worked with shoulder to shoulder were activist religionists, not humanists. And friends who are docs and dentists paying their own way to the third world to serve are like minded, spirit motivated people. I suppose some serve without spirit intent and by the basic GR but we should not and cannot determine this "weighting". And you can't get to #4 until passing #3 and not all will transcend from duty to love uniformly, eh? Many of those working to redirect profit-capital to service capital are motivated by spirit IMO. And yes, profits are served by the nonprofit redeployment. Jobs are created (paying jobs for some in the supply chain) and goods are puchased and warehouse rents and utilities and property taxes are all engaged. But isn't this how a transition works? It's not all one way and then suddenly another in most evolutionary experiences, eh? Certainly my volunteerism and that of many, perhaps even most, of my fellows so engaged was sacred, religious, and progress in the spirit for me. The teamwork required to build a house by volunteers is an inspiring connection to relationships of multiple forms and meanings.....it is sacred to many or they would not do it. It is a response to duty to the Supreme and a call by Father to work for and in the Kingdom and do so selflessly on behalf of our fellows with no desire or expectation for profit or personal reward of any kind. Peace.
Peace be upon you."

#54 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 09 January 2013 - 03:16 PM

I'm fine with all of that Brad as long as all those do-gooders are grateful to the capitalists who gave them the capital to do their good deeds. It's the Pharisaical sanctimoniousness of it all that really bothers me, as if that is the only way God intended capital to be utilized, as if that's the only legitimate way to do God's will, to be good stewards of other people's money. Being good stewards doesn't only mean redistributing capital from haves to have nots. That's only a small part of the whole picture and all of it needs wisdom, which is still sorely lacking in my opinion. We still need to raise capital in order to redistribute it and those honest and hard workers who are attempting to raise the capital need to be acknowledged as also doing God's work. They need to be praised too.

p1803:5 163:3.3 If one's wealth does not invade the precincts of the soul, it is of no consequence in the spiritual life of those who would enter the kingdom.

The current mindset is that only do-gooders are doing God's work and the rest are somehow stealing it or preventing it from going where do-gooders want it to go. I think that is a huge, huge mistake of group-think . . . without wisdom. Capitalists are worthy of just as much respect as redistributionists. Otherwise, the whole system will become unbalanced and will crumble because it is not built on firm ground. Be grateful for the creators of wealth and grateful that they are willing to share it. Better yet, like the wealthy doctors and dentists you speak of, they should be allowed to have the freedom to decide for themselves who they want to share it with because sometimes the greatest need is not obvious to everyone. Sometimes people prefer to give their money and time away to the worthy needy and keep it a secret, like Jesus taught.

165:4.5 There is a great difference between wealth which leads to covetousness and selfishness and that which is held and dispensed in the spirit of stewardship by those who have an abundance of this world’s goods, and who so bountifully contribute to the support of those who devote all their energies to the work of the kingdom. Many of you who are here and without money are fed and lodged in yonder tented city because liberal men and women of means have given funds to your host, David Zebedee, for such purposes.

Of course I'm generalizing about all of this. I'm sure there is righteousness here and there and this is just the beginning of an awakening of conscience, which is only the first step. But I also want to point out that there is often unintended collateral damage being caused by some. Jesus said that capital should be redistributed according to ". . . the laws of justice, equity, fairness, and true efficiency . . . (p1463:7 132:5.3)" Most of the time, I think that the demand for redistribution of wealth is based upon emotion and that is unwise because emotional people often do not make just, equitable, fair or efficient decisions, especially efficient.


Peace will never come from enforcing laws that deny people the ability to accumulate wealth. That is not the road to peace. Morality cannot be legislated or forced upon people, it must grow.

#55 Bradly aka/fanofVan

Bradly aka/fanofVan

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest USA
  • Interests:Gardening, sustainable agriculture/micro-farming, history, philosophy, behavioral psych, economics (quit laughing), the blues, learning from children.

Posted 09 January 2013 - 04:41 PM

Sister....I hear you. As a small business owner and capitalist advisor to many clients, I assure you my presentations are not political in nature and have nothing to do with "redistribution". I said redeployment, a voluntary choice by the earner or wealth owner. I am not saying how things "should" be either but commenting on what I perceive to be a reprioritization toward others and away from the self holding capital. If such redeployment is NOT voluntary, then it has nothing or little to do with the evolution from profit to service motives which must be an aggregation of individual choices. I only mean that freedom delivered by capital/profit IS creating a personal choice for many not even available for most at any prior time in history. I see signs of this stated-by-text process of change by choice. This is not about how one votes or the policies of government....it's about family policy of supporting their fellows.
Peace be upon you."

#56 Bradly aka/fanofVan

Bradly aka/fanofVan

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest USA
  • Interests:Gardening, sustainable agriculture/micro-farming, history, philosophy, behavioral psych, economics (quit laughing), the blues, learning from children.

Posted 09 January 2013 - 06:31 PM

Bonita....I can be so blind sometimes. I am also NOT talking about poverty "relief". Sorry. I'm talking about those who are being displaced by natural disasters, wars, famines, etc. More of a refugee or suddenly homeless population. I understand your points on wealth redistribution and I did not mean to entangle the issues. I see more and more being done, voluntarily, by more and more for more and more and capitalism is the device that created this capability of freely giving out of care.....not tax obligation and tithing redistribution policies of governments and churches. My bad as I was not clear in the distinction.
Peace be upon you."

#57 Guest_EEB aka AASB-AWSW_*

Guest_EEB aka AASB-AWSW_*
  • Guests

Posted 09 January 2013 - 08:02 PM

165:4.5 There is a great difference between wealth which leads to covetousness and selfishness and that which is held and dispensed in the spirit of stewardship by those who have an abundance of this world’s goods, and who so bountifully contribute to the support of those who devote all their energies to the work of the kingdom. Many of you who are here and without money are fed and lodged in yonder tented city because liberal men and women of means have given funds to your host, David Zebedee, for such purposes.


Actually, Jesus was referring to Mathew, the tax collector, who financed much of the Groups shortfall, and not many other than Jesus, Judas and Mathew where aware of this. But Jesus knew that Mathew wanted no one to know because much of his wealth came from his profession.

#58 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 10 January 2013 - 08:55 AM

Actually, Jesus was referring to Mathew, the tax collector, who financed much of the Groups shortfall, and not many other than Jesus, Judas and Mathew where aware of this. But Jesus knew that Mathew wanted no one to know because much of his wealth came from his profession.


Then why does the quote say, men and women of means, if he was only talking about Matthew?

#59 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:08 AM

Bonita....I can be so blind sometimes. I am also NOT talking about poverty "relief". Sorry. I'm talking about those who are being displaced by natural disasters, wars, famines, etc. More of a refugee or suddenly homeless population. I understand your points on wealth redistribution and I did not mean to entangle the issues. I see more and more being done, voluntarily, by more and more for more and more and capitalism is the device that created this capability of freely giving out of care.....not tax obligation and tithing redistribution policies of governments and churches. My bad as I was not clear in the distinction.


Brad, I do understand your point of view and I don't disagree with it. I wanted to stay focused on commerce, the buying and selling of goods and services, which is what Rick brought up. The current mindset is against commerce and capital and all I want to do is point out that it is a necessary part of living and when engaged in by sincere religionists, can be sacred; but it is not religion. And if commerce is going to bring world peace, then we have ages to wait for it to happen. TUB says that our new social order won't settle down for at least a millennia and I think most of that time will be used up trying to figure out ". . . the laws of justice, equity, fairness, and true efficiency . . . (p1463:7 132:5.3)" So prepare yourself for dueling parties and hot debates about the issues for a long time coming.

99:1.1 Mechanical inventions and the dissemination of knowledge are modifying civilization; certain economic adjustments and social changes are imperative if cultural disaster is to be avoided. This new and oncoming social order will not settle down complacently for a millennium. The human race must become reconciled to a procession of changes, adjustments, and readjustments. Mankind is on the march toward a new and unrevealed planetary destiny.

#60 Rick Warren

Rick Warren

    Rick Warren

  • Administrators
  • PipPip
  • 9,923 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 10 January 2013 - 09:18 AM

...And if commerce is going to bring world peace, then we have ages to wait for it to happen.


Isn't it massively important to first understand no one avenue of approach to peace on Urantia will work by itself? What I'm picking up in this study, so far at least, is that at least three things have to work together, service motivated commerce, one common language, and a preponderance of belief that we are all children of God.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users