Jump to content


Photo

True Religion, Where The Ancient Greeks Failed?


  • Please log in to reply
33 replies to this topic

#21 Alina

Alina

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,393 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UNIVERSO
  • Interests:*

Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:10 PM

FanofVan, Thanks you very Much!
I clarify, just in case, :) I did not say that "suddenly" we to go into light and life. No.
I referred only to sudden changes (which I honestly do not know) not the same.
And no ""artificially" " either ... I referred to the Hand of our own spirits Adjusters, the Spirit of Truth ...
and we know that we are not alone,Thank God!

I know there are quotes for this, but I have to leave. :)

Peace to you too!

Alina
***

#22 Bradly aka/fanofVan

Bradly aka/fanofVan

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest USA
  • Interests:Gardening, sustainable agriculture/micro-farming, history, philosophy, behavioral psych, economics (quit laughing), the blues, learning from children.

Posted 20 September 2012 - 12:23 PM

Alina - we do agree and I did not misunderstand.

(911.4) 14. Social changes. Society is not a divine institution; it is a phenomenon of progressive evolution; and advancing civilization is always delayed when its leaders are slow in making those changes in the social organization which are essential to keeping pace with the scientific developments of the age. For all that, things must not be despised just because they are old, neither should an idea be unconditionally embraced just because it is novel and new.

(911.5) Man should be unafraid to experiment with the mechanisms of society. But always should these adventures in cultural adjustment be controlled by those who are fully conversant with the history of social evolution; and always should these innovators be counseled by the wisdom of those who have had practical experience in the domains of contemplated social or economic experiment. No great social or economic change should be attempted suddenly. Time is essential to all types of human adjustment — physical, social, or economic. Only moral and spiritual adjustments can be made on the spur of the moment, and even these require the passing of time for the full outworking of their material and social repercussions. The ideals of the race are the chief support and assurance during the critical times when civilization is in transit from one level to another.

(911.6) 15. The prevention of transitional breakdown. Society is the offspring of age upon age of trial and error; it is what survived the selective adjustments and readjustments in the successive stages of mankind’s agelong rise from animal to human levels of planetary status. The great danger to any civilization — at any one moment — is the threat of breakdown during the time of transition from the established methods of the past to those new and better, but untried, procedures of the future.

(911.7) Leadership is vital to progress. Wisdom, insight, and foresight are indispensable to the endurance of nations. Civilization is never really jeopardized until able leadership begins to vanish. And the quantity of such wise leadership has never exceeded one per cent of the population.

(911.8) And it was by these rungs on the evolutionary ladder that civilization climbed to that place where those mighty influences could be initiated which have culminated in the rapidly expanding culture of the twentieth century. And only by adherence to these essentials can man hope to maintain his present-day civilizations while providing for their continued development and certain survival.

(912.1) This is the gist of the long, long struggle of the peoples of earth to establish civilization since the age of Adam. Present-day culture is the net result of this strenuous evolution. Before the discovery of printing, progress was relatively slow since one generation could not so rapidly benefit from the achievements of its predecessors. But now human society is plunging forward under the force of the accumulated momentum of all the ages through which civilization has struggled.


Progress is or can be "punctuated", if you will, by "sudden", transformative progress, but only within the patient, potentialities of time:


(739.8) As mind evolution is dependent on, and delayed by, the slow development of physical conditions, so is spiritual progress dependent on mental expansion and unfailingly delayed by intellectual retardation. But this does not mean that spiritual evolution is dependent on education, culture, or wisdom. The soul may evolve regardless of mental culture but not in the absence of mental capacity and desire — the choice of survival and the decision to achieve ever-increasing perfection — to do the will of the Father in heaven. Although survival may not depend on the possession of knowledge and wisdom, progression most certainly does.

(740.1) In the cosmic evolutionary laboratories mind is always dominant over matter, and spirit is ever correlated with mind. Failure of these diverse endowments to synchronize and co-ordinate may cause time delays, but if the individual really knows God and desires to find him and become like him, then survival is assured regardless of the handicaps of time. Physical status may handicap mind, and mental perversity may delay spiritual attainment, but none of these obstacles can defeat the whole-souled choice of will.

(740.2) When physical conditions are ripe, sudden mental evolutions may take place; when mind status is propitious, sudden spiritual transformations may occur; when spiritual values receive proper recognition, then cosmic meanings become discernible, and increasingly the personality is released from the handicaps of time and delivered from the limitations of space.

Are these the quotes? Looking forward to more. Peace. B)
Peace be upon you."

#23 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 20 September 2012 - 01:50 PM

I have to go back to Rick's original quote and highlight this sentence:

(1078.6) 98:2.2 They had begun to master fear and no longer sought religion as an antidote therefor, but they did not perceive that true religion is the cure for soul hunger, spiritual disquiet, and moral despair.

One of the things that stands out to me in regards to this is what TUB tells us about the affect the Salem missionaries had on the failure of Greek religion.

(1077.5)98:1.1The Salem missionaries might have built up a great religious structure among the Greeks had it not been for their strict interpretation of their oath of ordination, a pledge imposed by Machiventa which forbade the organization of exclusive congregations for worship, and which exacted the promise of each teacher never to function as a priest, never to receive fees for religious service, only food, clothing, and shelter.

The Salem missionaries refused to allow a church, or social organization, to form. It was their rigid interpretation of truth which eventually led to failure. (Incidentally, that's not unlike Abner's rigid interpretation of truth which led to one of the failures of the Christianity too.) TUB gives us a detailed description of how it all went down when the Greek gods were unable to satisfy the spiritual needs of the people and there was no safety net of social religion available to keep the fires of fear and awe alive.

(1078.5) 98:2.1 A lightly regarded and superficial religion cannot endure, especially when it has no priesthood to foster its forms and to fill the hearts of the devotees with fear and awe. The Olympian religion did not promise salvation, nor did it quench the spiritual thirst of its believers; therefore was it doomed to perish. Within a millennium of its inception it had nearly vanished, and the Greeks were without a national religion, the gods of Olympus having lost their hold upon the better minds.

Here we are reminded how important fear and awe are in the evolution of a revelatory relationship with God. The Greeks replaced fear and awe with deep thinking and metaphysics, which failed.

68:3.3 The baseless fears of evolution are designed to be supplanted by the awe for Deity inspired by revelation.

Something similar is happening today, but instead of lacking the evolutionary stimuli of fear and awe, Western civilization had an overdose of it because of the unbalanced rigidity of the Church. It's like the proverbial pendulum. Too little fear and awe is just as bad as too much fear and awe. Man is destined to bring it all back to equilibrium because man has a secret desire for survival.

So where are we today in Western societies? Speaking in generalities, it seems to me that we no longer fear God and are rarely overwhelmed by awe. We are loosing trust in priests and socialized religion. And unfortunately, we have not evolved deep thinking and metaphysics either. We really are straddling the abyss which is why I think there is such a push to manufacture fear and awe. The only way to exercise our built-in evolutionary machinery is to trump up imaginary terror and panic designed to whip up emotions which always seem to fall just short of satisfaction. It's really sad.

p1766:04 The world is filled with hungry souls who famish in the very presence of the bread of life; men die searching for the very God who lives within them. Men seek for the treasures of the kingdom with yearning hearts and weary feet when they are all within the immediate grasp of living faith.

#24 Rick Warren

Rick Warren

    Rick Warren

  • Administrators
  • PipPip
  • 9,923 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Texas

Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:05 PM

Some great thoughts you've gathered here Forum Friends,

But I'm still wondering how the magnificent Greeks got it so wrong. Why couldn't they perceive the human need for spiritual exercise? How did such brilliant thinkers divert from soul study to self study? Maybe it was a necessary dead end in social evolution....Or maybe they put the cart before the horse. Self improvement and self realization must come after "self preservation"...They thought so deeply of things philosophical and artistic, why not salvation and the next life? It seems so obvious. Could be they were simply averse to all things religious, and Melchizedek said they didn't take their spectacular pantheon very seriously....

#25 Alina

Alina

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,393 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UNIVERSO
  • Interests:*

Posted 20 September 2012 - 04:24 PM

Hi all!

Ok brother FanofVan,agree.
Thanks for the quotes! :)

I prefer to repeat something before whether doubt if was clear or not.This is the reason of my clarification; because while this is a good medio to communicate has limitations, I think there are many things that in a personal conversation, very quickly become clear ... or not. :D
Thanks again!

***
Bonita, I think that we are in a time of vacuum espiritual but as I said before, I hope this will lead to search for truth, which sooner or later the people will realize that is the daily bread.
For now we have the "palliative", people lost their fear, believe that magically resolved all problems or
not believe anything. But for me it's all part of the same evolution and hat something new and better will be born, we must give it time.
Recall also that the Religion of Jesus not going to fail. Just as Christianity triumphed in those conditions Hellenic over other religions After Pentecost,

TRUE RELIGION also triumph.

***

(2072.1) 195:1.8 The Greek, at social and political emergence; Jesus, at moral and spiritual emergence. The Greek taught intellectual liberalism leading to political freedom; Jesus taught spiritual liberalism leading to religious liberty. These two ideas put together constituted a new and mighty charter for human freedom; they presaged man’s social, political, and spiritual liberty.


(2071.2) 195:1.2 Christianity came into existence and triumphed over all contending religions primarily because of two things:

(2071.3) 195:1.3 1. The Greek mind was willing to borrow new and good ideas even from the Jews.
(2071.4) 195:1.4 2. Paul and his successors were willing but shrewd and sagacious compromisers; they were keen theologic traders.



(2071.5) 195:1.5 At the time Paul stood up in Athens preaching “Christ and Him Crucified,” the Greeks were spiritually hungry; they were inquiring, interested, and actually looking for spiritual truth. Never forget that at first the Romans fought Christianity, while the Greeks embraced it, and that it was the Greeks who literally forced the Romans subsequently to accept this new religion, as then modified, as a part of Greek culture.



Alina
***

Edited by Alina, 20 September 2012 - 04:40 PM.


#26 Bradly aka/fanofVan

Bradly aka/fanofVan

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest USA
  • Interests:Gardening, sustainable agriculture/micro-farming, history, philosophy, behavioral psych, economics (quit laughing), the blues, learning from children.

Posted 20 September 2012 - 06:25 PM

Rick - this pure speculation but I think we can identify several causes. First, the plethora of mythical gods created in the images of man/woman could not withstand the scrutiny of logic, reason, and the scientific explosion of critical thiinking. They intellectually out grew their fear/sacrifice religion of multiple gods. Second, the Salemites failed to deliver a viable monotheistic replacement by their brittle entrenchments against local enchantments OR disillusionments with the existing religious practices and theologies. Third, is the inferior overwhelming the superior blood and minds by regional conflict and migrations and slave practices. Fourth, a race of warriors and conquerors can cause a dilution of blood and cultural strength simply by attrition in some cycles of cultural expansion or decline. Fifth, is the effect I think we have witnessed many times and suffer from here today....the cultural decline from prosperity delivered decadence.

Those who create wealth and civilizations are, inherently it seems, followed by those who squander it away. Unearned wealth or privelege is rarely treasured and nurtured by any who receive it. 500,000 years after rebellion and 35,000 after default - how many civilizations have risen and fallen simply because we have not had the benefit of the continuity of heavenly example on-planet. Primarily because of that lack of wisdom, history repeats itself....endlessly it seems. But not so. For truly, each cycle of upliftment and crash leaves some legacy for the next one to come. We seem far better at building and destroying than stablizing and nurturing progress. I do not know Rick.....just speculating. But America's rise on the back of indenturing, slavery, sweat shops and resulting, yet again, on the lazy of mind and the weak of will from the decadence of our prosperity give me pause. Can we do better than those who rose up before us? Hope springs eternal. But patterns are patterns and we follow that pattern of either decline or self destruction in too many ways to assume our story will end differently.

But, on a planetary basis, I know that sooner or later, Urantia will find a way to progress and hold onto that progress so that our unseen friends will be allowed to take that next step in bringing the wisdom and example of heaven to us in new and more direct ways to propel us, more directly, toward L&L. The Greek tragedy is that such advanced minds could not find that which lay within their minds. Perhaps God was too illogical for such smart humanists as they rejected the silly fables and myths their critical thinking destroyed? And herein lies a paradox for the religionist and the humanist today - for both are right and wrong. The religionist believes (sorry for the generality) that humanism destroys us and only the gods can save us, while the humanist does not reach for the hand of God in their efforts to make society and the citizen more enlightened and prosperous.

Isn't the reality in between? God will not save those who will not save themselves but none can be saved from the follies of materialism and ego without God!! We seem to spin around and around with these polarities unable to find the truth within the axis core. Sometimes I just talk too much!! Peace. :blink: ;)
Peace be upon you."

#27 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 20 September 2012 - 07:13 PM

Posted ImageRick Warren, on 20 September 2012 - 05:05 PM, said:

Some great thoughts you've gathered here Forum Friends,But I'm still wondering how the magnificent Greeks got it so wrong. Why couldn't they perceive the human need for spiritual exercise? How did such brilliant thinkers divert from soul study to self study? Maybe it was a necessary dead end in social evolution....Or maybe they put the cart before the horse. Self improvement and self realization must come after "self preservation"...They thought so deeply of things philosophical and artistic, why not salvation and the next life? It seems so obvious. Could be they were simply averse to all things religious, and Melchizedek said they didn't take their spectacular pantheon very seriously....


I think you answered your own question. The Greeks couldn't take their gods seriously, nor could they respect them. Their gods were mostly human. They had wild mood swings, were hypersexed, mischievous, and always intermingling with humans and interfering in their affairs in egoistic ways. They could never be trusted or relied upon.

One of the things we have so much trouble understanding is the ancient culture. You have to actually live during the time to get the full flavor of the motivation of these people. The gods were everywhere and involved with everything and everybody. There were so many of them; a god for every purpose under heaven. You couldn't get out of bed without invoking the charms of the god of the dawn. We think this is ridiculous, but it took the Greeks centuries to get bored with the whole thing and start looking for something else. The problem was their relationship with the gods. There was no real prayer or communion, there was really no need for prayer, only manipulation. The gods were hanging around all the time, all you had to do was get their attention, entice them and motivate them to go your way. Sooner or later their impotence would have to become self-evident, but mostly it was the shallowness of the relationship.

TUB tells us that the spiritual status of a religion is determined by its prayers.

5:4.8 The spiritual status of any religion may be determined by the nature of its prayers.


The Greeks didn't have a real religion because their ability to commune with their gods was just as impotent as the gods themselves.

p996:3 91:2.5 When religion is divested of a personal God, its prayers translate to the levels of theology and philosophy. When the highest God concept of a religion is that of an impersonal Deity, such as in pantheistic idealism, although affording the basis for certain forms of mystic communion, it proves fatal to the potency of true prayer, which always stands for man's communion with a personal and superior being.

#28 Guest_As-Within-So-Without_*

Guest_As-Within-So-Without_*
  • Guests

Posted 20 September 2012 - 07:54 PM

EllenRG previously used the following quote and highlighted that which is underlined below regarding what religion cures;

(1078.6) 98:2.2 This was the situation when, during the sixth century before Christ, the Orient and the Levant experienced a revival of spiritual consciousness and a new awakening to the recognition of monotheism. But the West did not share in this new development; neither Europe nor northern Africa extensively participated in this religious renaissance. The Greeks, however, did engage in a magnificent intellectual advancement. They had begun to master fear and no longer sought religion as an antidote therefor, but they did not perceive that true religion is the cure for soul hunger, spiritual disquiet, and moral despair. They sought for the solace of the soul in deep thinking — philosophy and metaphysics. They turned from the contemplation of self-preservation — salvation — to self-realization and self-understanding.

However the statement above in bold describes the Greeks fallacy in that their teaching was based on the selfishness of the one, the self rather than the dualistic self which includes God (the adjuster) within the self, which is needed for salvation or survival of the whole. This intellectual selfishness could be taught, in some degree, to those who were of the higher class but over time did not trickle down to the common classes of the people and as those able teachers died off, so did the succession of intellect selfishness of the self. There was no real Greek religion per say, only a Greek intellectual Philosophy that became too complicated for the common people to understand or retain, thereby died out with the Greek Philosophers, as the following quote indicates.

(1078.7) 98:2.3 By rigorous thought the Greeks attempted to attain that consciousness of security which would serve as a substitute for the belief in survival, but they utterly failed. Only the more intelligent among the higher classes of the Hellenic peoples could grasp this new teaching; the rank and file of the progeny of the slaves of former generations had no capacity for the reception of this new substitute for religion.

(1079.1) 98:2.4 The philosophers disdained all forms of worship, notwithstanding that they practically all held loosely to the background of a belief in the Salem doctrine of “the Intelligence of the universe,” “the idea of God,” and “the Great Source.” In so far as the Greek philosophers gave recognition to the divine and the superfinite, they were frankly monotheistic; they gave scant recognition to the whole galaxy of Olympian gods and goddesses.

(1079.2) 98:2.5 The Greek poets of the fifth and sixth centuries, notably Pindar, attempted the reformation of Greek religion. They elevated its ideals, but they were more artists than religionists. They failed to develop a technique for fostering and conserving supreme values.

What might the Greeks have developed as a technique to conserve those original deep thinking teachers to turn intellectual philosophy into intelligent religion?

#29 Bradly aka/fanofVan

Bradly aka/fanofVan

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest USA
  • Interests:Gardening, sustainable agriculture/micro-farming, history, philosophy, behavioral psych, economics (quit laughing), the blues, learning from children.

Posted 20 September 2012 - 08:17 PM

I sometimes wonder if I am naive in my optimism given all the media and pulpit delivered evidence, strident claim, or inference to the contrary perspective. While I look for and find ample evidence of love, truth, beauty, and goodness on Urantia - this is a subjective view of anectdotal evidence. And I am subject to, being human, the denial of reality in favor of the imagined preference...gotta love that ego. But then, I come across quotes which indicate my optimism is not misplaced after all:

(911.8) And it was by these rungs on the evolutionary ladder that civilization climbed to that place where those mighty influences could be initiated which have culminated in the rapidly expanding culture of the twentieth century. And only by adherence to these essentials can man hope to maintain his present-day civilizations while providing for their continued development and certain survival.

(912.1) This is the gist of the long, long struggle of the peoples of earth to establish civilization since the age of Adam. Present-day culture is the net result of this strenuous evolution. Before the discovery of printing, progress was relatively slow since one generation could not so rapidly benefit from the achievements of its predecessors. But now human society is plunging forward under the force of the accumulated momentum of all the ages through which civilization has struggled.


(593.2) It is the prime purpose of the Adamic regime to influence evolving man to complete the transit from the hunter and herder stage of civilization to that of the agriculturist and horticulturist, to be later supplemented by the appearance of the urban and industrial adjuncts to civilization. Ten thousand years of this dispensation of the biologic uplifters is sufficient to effect a marvelous transformation. Twenty-five thousand years of such an administration of the conjoint wisdom of the Planetary Prince and the Material Sons usually ripens the sphere for the advent of a Magisterial Son.


Ahhhhh.......the what ifs of life. Our rewards - we are agondontor! Our Creator Son became Master Son only 100 generations ago right here out of 10,000,000 to one odds! And many more forms of compensation and acceleration ministries, propelling us! Wise or naive.....I think I will remain the blue sky, sunny days ahead, eternal optimist I have become.


Based on As-Within's post above - it makes me wonder what "lessons" learned by each vanquished or failed civilization were retained and transferred to that next one which also ended up as just another layer of history's rubble underfoot. Do we, today, have some collective "experience" that is an accumulative progress that can be leveraged into planetary transformation? Urantia is shrinking, rapidly. Global communication and translation in real time and the accelerating globalization of industry, commerce, and banking are but two planet transforming factors active on Urantia today. The "quivering on the brink" quote does not feel to me like it is a dire warning of being on the brink of a chasm, but rather, and hopefully, on the brink of metamorphosis......but then, I'm an optimist. Peace.
Peace be upon you."

#30 EllenRG

EllenRG

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 242 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:U.S. Pacific Northwest, Urantia, Nebadon, Orvonton,
  • Interests:BE Fatherly loving to each and all ! Getting our FACTS straight; Planetary wide integrity; straight talking-listening; compassion; altruism; creative solution imagination; adherence to spirit of law of life; identifying/eliminating laws made by selfish interests; identifying evil masquerading as good; avoiding perpetuation of error; supporting enlightened pursuits: momentarily in perpetuity AMEN

Posted 21 September 2012 - 03:43 AM

I've been reading so many posts on this topic, it is hard to know where to start!

First, if i get it right... we humans, "Sons of God" are Father Indwelt, and nearly all the other beings of
our Universe are children of the Holy Mother Spirit.

They ( our Universe compatriots) are similarly imperfect as we are.


We are all learning together, ya? "They" are not "running the show" so much as we are "as we will" ...&
too bad we don't get that, really. I think we need to truly appreciate the consequence of the
revelation that we are those we are looking for, responsible for Urantia's physical side, too ..for
being cognizant of our whereabouts and the ramifications of violating "Gods laws of nature" .

It is Very Wonderful to know our Father and Jesus' Truth are potential in
every single person on this planet. There are more persons alive today than lived
in all the time before now. Persistent ignorance and repeated failure is NOT our destiny, necessarily.

Think..10,000,000 inhabited planets destined to share in Jesus Michael's truth he learns here, too.
.."..clear thinking, wise reasoning, logical judgment, sincere motivation, unselfish purpose, intelligent loyalty, experiential memory, disciplined character, and the unquestioning dedication of his personality to the doing of the will of the Father in Paradise." ..."..loving service, unselfish devotion, courageous loyalty, sincere fairness, enlightened honesty, undying hope, confiding trust, merciful ministry, unfailing goodness, forgiving tolerance, and enduring peace.." URANTIA.org

#31 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 21 September 2012 - 07:27 AM

I think we need to truly appreciate the consequence of the
revelation that we are those we are looking for, responsible for Urantia's physical side, too ..for
being cognizant of our whereabouts and the ramifications of violating "Gods laws of nature".


I love that . . . "we are those we are looking for" . . . personal responsibility and integrity. Unfortunately, people are looking for a savior, someone else to do the heavy lifting. We actually do save ourselves by making Godly choices, but that is only possible if we recognize that there is a God and that we are more than ourselves because a fragment of God lives within us. There are many who cannot make this simple leap of faith though. Even Melchizedek couldn't convince people of that (93:6.4). And for those people, it will always be human effort alone that solves human problems; so without God, all you get is the kingdom of good . . . humanism (2:5.12). It's an empty kingdom because man becomes his own king.

But I do have to take you to task about the statement of being cognizant of the ramifications of violating God's laws of nature. What laws of nature are you talking about? TUB says that violence is the law of nature. Surely you don't mean that law, do you? We're supposed to rise above and transcend the laws of nature. We're supposed to evolve our spiritual dominance over nature. Is that what you mean?

70:1.1 Violence is the law of nature, hostility the automatic reaction of the children of nature, while war is but these same activities carried on collectively.
118:10.12 Much that takes place on an evolving world is rather hard for mortal man to understand — natural law is so often apparently cruel, heartless, and indifferent to all that is true, beautiful, and good in human comprehension.

#32 EllenRG

EllenRG

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 242 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:U.S. Pacific Northwest, Urantia, Nebadon, Orvonton,
  • Interests:BE Fatherly loving to each and all ! Getting our FACTS straight; Planetary wide integrity; straight talking-listening; compassion; altruism; creative solution imagination; adherence to spirit of law of life; identifying/eliminating laws made by selfish interests; identifying evil masquerading as good; avoiding perpetuation of error; supporting enlightened pursuits: momentarily in perpetuity AMEN

Posted 21 September 2012 - 05:34 PM

I love that . . . "we are those we are looking for" . . . personal responsibility and integrity. Unfortunately, people are looking for a savior, someone else to do the heavy lifting. We actually do save ourselves by making Godly choices, but that is only possible if we recognize that there is a God and that we are more than ourselves because a fragment of God lives within us. There are many who cannot make this simple leap of faith though. Even Melchizedek couldn't convince people of that (93:6.4). And for those people, it will always be human effort alone that solves human problems; so without God, all you get is the kingdom of good . . . humanism (2:5.12). It's an empty kingdom because man becomes his own king.

But I do have to take you to task about the statement of being cognizant of the ramifications of violating God's laws of nature. What laws of nature are you talking about? TUB says that violence is the law of nature. Surely you don't mean that law, do you? We're supposed to rise above and transcend the laws of nature. We're supposed to evolve our spiritual dominance over nature. Is that what you mean?

70:1.1 Violence is the law of nature, hostility the automatic reaction of the children of nature, while war is but these same activities carried on collectively.
118:10.12 Much that takes place on an evolving world is rather hard for mortal man to understand — natural law is so often apparently cruel, heartless, and indifferent to all that is true, beautiful, and good in human comprehension.


Hi Bonita, no I didn't mean it that way, although respect comes to mind regarding God's Natural Laws.


We know to be successful we can't leap over incremental steps required to grow from one stage to

another, like presently in the Middle East where we're finding out the hard way that "democracy"

has to be grown and cannot be imposed. Our history is strewn with failed experiments from jumping over

and around important steps in whole cultural shifts.


Back when -a million years ago- Andon and Fanta as the first Human beings with God's will alive

in their hearts, our planet achieved the status of Inhabited and simultaneously the Life Carriers could

no longer manipulate the physical evolution of our planet even while I'm sure they monitor us continuously.


Today, our millions of years of careful cultivation of evolutionary progress is being jeapordized

by rampant disregard for our delicate heritage, squandered on nearly all levels, through clear denial

of the treasure we benefit from of Urantia as a home, and our genetic fabric as the basis of survival as a species.


Some choose to dwell on our spiritual aspect at the expense of acknowledging our Human responsibility

for safeguarding our physical basis of life, itself. Just because we know that no matter what happens, no

matter what horrible things may kill us physically we are assured of salvation, that does not remove

our legitimate Universe Citizen need to manage our physical world responsibly, intelligently, for a decent

future for all who come after.


Adam and Eves normally guide a planet's physical development including through the industrial era. We

need to be extra faithful that God-Indwelt persons FIND our way through this sensitive explosion of

manipulation and blatantly insane destruction of our planet's genetic fabric - some wisely, very much not wise and extremely dangerous

to survival. Ignorance is our enemy. Greed motivates many wrongs, but apathy will doom survival, too.


I believe we cannot afford to "rest on our laurels" and must be vigilant over practical matters

involving caretaking of our planet on behalf of everyone now, and to come.

For example... at this time there is an explosion of genetically defective babies in the U.S. due

to unwise use of prescription drugs like paxil during the beginning of pregnancy.


We are currently Guinea Pigs

for industries that need to be regulated and subjected to intense scrutiny for the damage they cause.


Our human institutions need informed spiritually motivated personnel to do our Indwelt best aided

by our Master Creator's TRUTH which transcends even Adam and Eve's practical guidance on

normal planets not in isolation. (We are faced with educational systems who deny science)

It IS A TALL ORDER but with knowing we are among potentially 10,000,000 planets in this

Local Universe, we can grasp the enormity of how much God loves us and wants us to succeed.


Edited by EllenRG, 21 September 2012 - 05:36 PM.

.."..clear thinking, wise reasoning, logical judgment, sincere motivation, unselfish purpose, intelligent loyalty, experiential memory, disciplined character, and the unquestioning dedication of his personality to the doing of the will of the Father in Paradise." ..."..loving service, unselfish devotion, courageous loyalty, sincere fairness, enlightened honesty, undying hope, confiding trust, merciful ministry, unfailing goodness, forgiving tolerance, and enduring peace.." URANTIA.org

#33 Raymond

Raymond

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 177 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Akron,Ohio - USA
  • Interests:Reading, Golf, Cooking.

Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:21 AM

Bonita said: Let's be honest. Most people just want to be happy, and as far as I'm concerned, there is no such thing as happiness without God and the effort required to become more like him.

I agree. Yet I've heard and/or read that 'joy' transcends happiness' that peace beyond human understanding is also a transcendant quality. I like the struggle it takes us to find a balance in our lives eventhough it may not be all that enjoyable at times, but I throughly enjoy those experiential moments of bliss/peace.

#34 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:12 AM

Teresa of Ávila wrote the following in chapter 2 of Interior Castle:

To understand it better, let us suppose that we are looking at two fountains, the basins of which can be filled with water. . . . These two large basins can be filled with water in different ways: the water in the one comes from a long distance, by means of numerous conduits and through human skill; but the other has been constructed at the very source of the water and fills without making any noise. If the flow of water is abundant, . . . a great stream still runs from it after it has been filled; no skill is necessary here, and no conduits have to be made, for the water is flowing all the time. The difference between this and the carrying of the water by means of conduits is, I think, as follows. The latter corresponds to the spiritual sweetness which, as I say, is produced by meditation. It reaches by way of the thoughts; we meditate upon created things and fatigue the understanding; and when at last, by means of our own efforts, it comes, the satisfaction which it brings to the soul fills the basin, but in doing so makes a noise, as I have said. To the other fountain the water comes direct from its source, which is God, and, when it is His Majesty's will and He is pleased to grant us some supernatural favour, its coming is accompanied by the greatest peace and quietness and sweetness within ourselves - I cannot say where it arises or how. And that content and delight are not felt, as earthly delights are felt, in the heart - I mean not at the outset, for later the basin becomes completely filled, and then this water begins to overflow all the Mansions and faculties, until it reaches the body. It is for that reason that I said it has its source in God and ends in ourselves - for it is certain, and anyone will know this who has experienced it, that the whole of the outer man enjoys this consolation and sweetness.


Teresa is describing, in old-timey language, the peace that passes all understanding which cannot be experienced by human effort alone. True transcendent bliss comes from living in concert with the soul - in very close proximity to the source of living water. No noisy conduits are necessary when your roots are anchored in living water and its flow is uninterrupted.

Teresa goes on to write:

For apparently, as this heavenly water begins to flow from this source of which I am speaking - that is, from our very depths - it proceeds to spread within us and cause an interior dilation and produce ineffable blessings, so that the soul itself cannot understand all that it receives there.


And here Teresa is echoing TUB which says that all true growth is unconscious and:

Prayer does not move the divine heart to liberality of bestowal, but it does so often dig out larger and deeper channels wherein the divine bestowals may flow to the hearts and souls of those who thus remember to maintain unbroken communion with their Maker through sincere prayer and true worship. p2065:8 194:3.20

Edited by Bonita, 29 September 2012 - 08:47 PM.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users