Jump to content


Photo

Does the Urantia Book take sin seriously?


  • Please log in to reply
48 replies to this topic

#1 Howard509

Howard509

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 352 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 05 July 2012 - 07:24 PM

My wife and I got into a discussion in which she asked what incentive the Urantia Book gives for not sinning if it has no doctrine of hell. Many people seem to come to the Urantia Book as an escape from the rigid moralism in which they were raised, but the book itself does seem to take sin seriously.


Jesus never displayed intolerance to any person, but he was, "intolerant of sin. He was often mightily moved to resist that which was inimical to the welfare of his children on earth. But his indignation against sin never led to anger at the sinner." (1103)

In a similar vein Jesus said, "Tell my children that I am ruthless with sin and intolerant of iniquity. I am indeed meek and humble in the presence of my Father, but I am equally and relentlessly inexorable where there is deliberate evildoing and sinful rebellion against the will of my Father in heaven." (1766)

http://urantiabook.o...4_5/page10.html


Is personality extinction enough incentive for people not to sin? People might say to themselves, "If I'm just going to die anyway, why does it matter what I do?"

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#2 Pike aka Hrvoje Pajk

Pike aka Hrvoje Pajk

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 314 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Zagreb, Croatia
  • Interests:Technology, Travel, Photography, Urantia book, science, hiking, nature

Posted 05 July 2012 - 10:12 PM

hello,

it is possible to reject the Father. it is part of a free will thing. there are also personalities who get and past through Mansion worlds and they are disapointed whit what they get (work, work and work) and they decide to quit.
but waiting to be released as they never existed is real 'hell'.
i can't imagine to wait and do nothing for thousands of years.
peace
Peace be upon you

#3 Bradly aka/fanofVan

Bradly aka/fanofVan

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest USA
  • Interests:Gardening, sustainable agriculture/micro-farming, history, philosophy, behavioral psych, economics (quit laughing), the blues, learning from children.

Posted 06 July 2012 - 07:31 AM

As Jesus so capably and repeatedly taught, the reward for righteousness is or should be the motive for right "choosing"....to avoid punishment is the way of the animal kingdom, not the kingdom of God...oh and the way of most religions whose priesthoods thrives on the fear of punishment instead of the rewards for good choices and better priorities. TUB's beauty is this truth....we are loved by God and given the most precious of all gifts, free will - our only gift to Him - to ascend into glorious adventure! You need a punishment for sin? You think God is about such punishment? TUB tells a far different story and one that makes far more sense.....for Jesus was not butchered by His Father for our sins but, rather, He lived and died to show us freedom from such fears and the rewards of right living. This truth is clearly presented within the christian bible even by the very words of Jesus therein and made far more grand and complete within TUB. Sin is its own punishment, clearly, and only by the consequences of our choices can we make better ones, eh? Is God our loving Father as Jesus proclaimed? Or is he the monster preached by the Judaic and Paulinian priests? One must choose their truth too and live accordingly. But as the Master said, "Fear Not", God's love will prevail. Peace.
Peace be upon you."

#4 Coop

Coop

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 251 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh PA

Posted 06 July 2012 - 08:02 AM

46:8.4 There will come an end for rebels and rebellion. The Supreme Rulers are merciful and patient, but the law of deliberately nourished evil is universally and unerringly executed. “The wages of sin is death” — eternal obliteration.

53:9.8 But for ages the seven prison worlds of spiritual darkness in Satania have constituted a solemn warning to all Nebadon, eloquently and effectively proclaiming the great truth “that the way of the transgressor is hard”; “that within every sin is concealed the seed of its own destruction”; that “the wages of sin is death.”

WHY , seven prison worlds of spiritual darkness ?

Edited by Coop, 06 July 2012 - 08:18 AM.


#5 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:55 AM

Love is what dominates the universe and mercy is applied love. God cannot be anything less than love, therefore I don't think he has anything to do evil, nor does he punish it. God simply does not recognize it as a reality. A soul which has completely identified itself with sin is an unreality. The less spiritual a person becomes, the more isolated and less real is his existence. Personalities cannot exist in isolation.

#6 Meredith Van Woert

Meredith Van Woert

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 2,270 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:California

Posted 06 July 2012 - 10:34 AM

My wife and I got into a discussion in which she asked what incentive the Urantia Book gives for not sinning if it has no doctrine of hell. Many people seem to come to the Urantia Book as an escape from the rigid moralism in which they were raised, but the book itself does seem to take sin seriously.

Is personality extinction enough incentive for people not to sin? People might say to themselves, "If I'm just going to die anyway, why does it matter what I do?"


Hi,

A couple of thoughts came to my mind pertaining to your post Howard. My first thought is the all familiar "You can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink." Then I thought of hunger, spiritual hunger, and remembered this reference:

The world is filled with hungry souls who famish in the very presence of the bread of life; men die searching for the very God who lives within them. Men seek for the treasures of the kingdom with yearning hearts and weary feet when they are all within the immediate grasp of living faith. Faith is to religion what sails are to a ship; it is an addition of power, not an added burden of life. There is but one struggle for those who enter the kingdom, and that is to fight the good fight of faith. The believer has only one battle, and that is against doubt--unbelief. P.1766 - §4



There is another reference I don't have time to find right now that says, in effect, why worry about what you shouldn't be doing (sin), but rather go out and do what is right. I'm sure Bonita can find it quickly.

All the best,
Meredith

#7 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 06 July 2012 - 11:37 AM

There is another reference I don't have time to find right now that says, in effect, why worry about what you shouldn't be doing (sin), but rather go out and do what is right. I'm sure Bonita can find it quickly.


I don't remember that quote. But, Jesus always taught the positive approach to living:

127:4.2 By the beginning of this year Jesus had fully won his mother to the acceptance of his methods of child training — the positive injunction to do good in the place of the older Jewish method of forbidding to do evil. In his home and throughout his public-teaching career Jesus invariably employed the positive form of exhortation. Always and everywhere did he say, “You shall do this — you ought to do that.” Never did he employ the negative mode of teaching derived from the ancient taboos. He refrained from placing emphasis on evil by forbidding it, while he exalted the good by commanding its performance. Prayer time in this household was the occasion for discussing anything and everything relating to the welfare of the family.

140:10.5 The golden rule as restated by Jesus demands active social contact; the older negative rule could be obeyed in isolation. Jesus stripped morality of all rules and ceremonies and elevated it to majestic levels of spiritual thinking and truly righteous living.

159:5.8 Jesus put the spirit of positive action into the passive doctrines of the Jewish religion. In the place of negative compliance with ceremonial requirements, Jesus enjoined the positive doing of that which his new religion required of those who accepted it. Jesus’ religion consisted not merely in believing, but in actually doing, those things which the gospel required. He did not teach that the essence of his religion consisted in social service, but rather that social service was one of the certain effects of the possession of the spirit of true religion.

Punishment and Hell are human inventions.

89:2.4 The habitual violation of a taboo became a vice; primitive law made vice a crime; religion made it a sin. Among the early tribes the violation of a taboo was a combined crime and sin. Community calamity was always regarded as punishment for tribal sin. To those who believed that prosperity and righteousness went together, the apparent prosperity of the wicked occasioned so much worry that it was necessary to invent hells for the punishment of taboo violators; the numbers of these places of future punishment have varied from one to five.

#8 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 06 July 2012 - 01:15 PM

Hmmm . . . . perhaps this is the quote Meredith was referring to?

188:4.10 Neither do genuine believers trouble themselves so much about the future punishment of sin. The real believer is only concerned about present separation from God. True, wise fathers may chasten their sons, but they do all this in love and for corrective purposes. They do not punish in anger, neither do they chastise in retribution.

#9 Meredith Van Woert

Meredith Van Woert

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 2,270 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:California

Posted 06 July 2012 - 02:05 PM

Hi,

Thanks Bonita. Those are good. I found the one I thought of from "You are the salt of the earth. . . .", as follows:


Strong characters are not derived from not doing wrong but rather from actually doing right. Unselfishness is the badge of human greatness. The highest levels of self-realization are attained by worship and service. The happy and effective person is motivated, not by fear of wrongdoing, but by love of right doing.



P.1572 - §6 ; PAPER 140



All the best,
Meredith

Edited by Meredith Van Woert, 06 July 2012 - 02:45 PM.


#10 -Scott-

-Scott-

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,023 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Camping, Hiking, Soccer, Movies, Games,

Posted 06 July 2012 - 09:11 PM

I would imagine the fear of extinction can be motivation at first, but at some point that fear has to transform into something else. :) I wouldn't doubt though if many beginning on their spiritual journey were jolted awake by a fear of extinction and decided to make a new path towards God.

I think those quotes you put out show an attitude towards sin, but we should remember our sins are not our personalitys, Jesus is not actually personally mad at you. You are not you're sins.

Edited by boomshuka, 06 July 2012 - 09:13 PM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#11 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 06 July 2012 - 10:24 PM

I think those quotes you put out show an attitude towards sin, but we should remember our sins are not our personalitys, Jesus is not actually personally mad at you. You are not you're sins.



Evil is the unconscious or unintended transgression of the divine law, the Father's will. Evil is likewise the measure of the imperfectness of obedience to the Father's will.

Sin is the conscious, knowing, and deliberate transgression of the divine law, the Father's will. Sin is the measure of unwillingness to be divinely led and spiritually directed.

Iniquity is the willful, determined, and persistent transgression of the divine law, the Father's will. Iniquity is the measure of the continued rejection of the Father's loving plan of personality survival and the Sons' merciful ministry of salvation.

Once you become conscious of choosing evil, it becomes sin. The fact that sin is conscious means that the personality has identified with it; therefore you are very much your sins because you have chosen them. That being said, God will never identify your personality with sin until that point when it has annihilated its identity by becoming personally unreal. Even when identity ceases to exist, personality continues on as part of the Supreme devoid of identity.

2:6.8 God loves the sinner and hates the sin: such a statement is true philosophically, but God is a transcendent personality, and persons can only love and hate other persons. Sin is not a person. God loves the sinner because he is a personality reality (potentially eternal), while towards sin God strikes no personal attitude, for sin is not a spiritual reality; it is not personal; therefore does only the justice of God take cognizance of its existence. The love of God saves the sinner; the law of God destroys the sin. This attitude of the divine nature would apparently change if the sinner finally identified himself wholly with sin just as the same mortal mind may also fully identify itself with the indwelling spirit Adjuster. Such a sin-identified mortal would then become wholly unspiritual in nature (and therefore personally unreal) and would experience eventual extinction of being. Unreality, even incompleteness of creature nature, cannot exist forever in a progressingly real and increasingly spiritual universe.

And Jesus does get annoyed with people who refuse to be divinely led and spiritually directed. He certainly does chastise when chastisement is called for. He did so when he walked this earth and he continues to do so even today. He calls himself the "New Teacher". Teachers have a way of letting you know when you're performance is "off". However, if you're in love with evil, chances are you're totally unaware of it.

158:7.5 After they had recovered from the first shock of Jesus’ stinging rebuke, and before they resumed their journey, the Master spoke further: “If any man would come after me, let him disregard himself, take up his responsibilities daily, and follow me.
158:7.8 In all the association of the twelve with their Master, only a few times did they see that flashing eye and hear such swift words of rebuke as were administered to Peter and the rest of them on this occasion.
162:0.2 But when Jesus heard these words of vengeance, he turned upon the sons of Zebedee and severely rebuked them: “You know not what manner of attitude you manifest.
164:1.4 Jesus not only confounded the dishonest lawyer, but he told his hearers a story which was at the same time a beautiful admonition to all his followers and a stunning rebuke to all Jews regarding their attitude toward the Samaritans.
175:4.2 The multitude who heard Jesus swing from his merciful appeal to the Jewish leaders into that sudden and scathing rebuke which bordered on ruthless denunciation, were stunned and bewildered.

#12 Bradly aka/fanofVan

Bradly aka/fanofVan

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest USA
  • Interests:Gardening, sustainable agriculture/micro-farming, history, philosophy, behavioral psych, economics (quit laughing), the blues, learning from children.

Posted 06 July 2012 - 10:52 PM

Posted Yesterday, 09:52 PM
Oh, thank you Alina...there is that which is deserving of rebuke!! The notion that anything goes is total nonsense....that tolerance is the rule is fictional and that falsehoods are to be patiently accepted is a form of misinformation or misunderstanding is also bunk. Jesus was often annoyed and impatient with the egotism of the apostles and their blindness to "The Kingdom of Heaven" at hand. The last supper and the Master's servitude is a definitive example of this lesson for us all. The "anything goes" or anything is "possible" nonsense some propose or suppose is not supported in any way by TUB. Thank you. Peace.

Edited by fanofVan, 07 July 2012 - 11:36 AM.

Peace be upon you."

#13 Alina

Alina

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 1,393 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UNIVERSO
  • Interests:*

Posted 07 July 2012 - 10:56 AM

Hello FanofVan !

I did not write in this topic, :) I do not quite understand what you mean. Could it be that you must respond in "If the Urantia Papers were of human origin .. " ?
There I wrote about the confusion that often arises relating to the origin "supposedly human" of Revelations.In this issue, I told something about the misconceptions, even with good intentions or without them on the philosophical material that "heavenly beings" used to illustrate the point Mota.
I also take to clarify something important, We must know all the history of Revelation, not to ignore the criticism that circulate there.
But I wanted meant that when a person is that in tune with the teachings of UB, the criticisms and doubts of others pass us by side, although we must be informed, obviously.

I do not know, but maybe the Moderators should move these messages to another topic?
Thanks!

Love...

Alina
***

Edited by Alina, 07 July 2012 - 11:07 AM.


#14 Bradly aka/fanofVan

Bradly aka/fanofVan

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest USA
  • Interests:Gardening, sustainable agriculture/micro-farming, history, philosophy, behavioral psych, economics (quit laughing), the blues, learning from children.

Posted 07 July 2012 - 11:45 AM

Sorry Alina - meant for Bonita's post. I am confused too by the notion that the Revelation doesn't take sin seriously. For sin is that which keeps us from the Father and prevents or retards our ascendency and ability to transcend materialism by our mind endowment to receive His rewards for right choosing and righteous living. The UB takes sin far more seriously than any religion I know of.....all of which teach it is our "nature" and the consequences for sin cannot be escaped except by sacrifices of animals, people, or gods, or gods children - literally or figuratively. We must transcend error and reject sin by mind and will and turn away from it to progress. How serious can it get? Peace.
Peace be upon you."

#15 Meredith Van Woert

Meredith Van Woert

    Poster

  • Moderators
  • PipPip
  • 2,270 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:California

Posted 07 July 2012 - 03:26 PM

It is human to err, because we are finite and imperfect mortal beings on the road to prefection. In the following reference several items pop out for me:


The possibility of mistaken judgment (evil) becomes sin only when the human will consciously endorses and knowingly embraces a deliberate immoral judgment. P.52 - §1



evil - a mistaken judgement


sin - the conscious, deliberate embrace of an immoral judgement


the actor - the human will



What's the diffrence between a mistaken judgement and an immoral judgement?


Peace,
Meredith

#16 Howard509

Howard509

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 352 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 07 July 2012 - 04:23 PM

I would imagine the fear of extinction can be motivation at first, but at some point that fear has to transform into something else. :) I wouldn't doubt though if many beginning on their spiritual journey were jolted awake by a fear of extinction and decided to make a new path towards God.

I think those quotes you put out show an attitude towards sin, but we should remember our sins are not our personalitys, Jesus is not actually personally mad at you. You are not you're sins.

.

Do most non-believers in an afterlife have a fear of personality extinction or do they live comfortably with the thought that nothingness alone awaits after death? I think that personality extinction might be incentive for someone who believes in God and wants to see him after death, but maybe not for someone who doesn't believe in God in the first place.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin


#17 Bradly aka/fanofVan

Bradly aka/fanofVan

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest USA
  • Interests:Gardening, sustainable agriculture/micro-farming, history, philosophy, behavioral psych, economics (quit laughing), the blues, learning from children.

Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:01 PM

The fact is that fear of punishment does not stop criminal behavior and neither does it cause ethical or moral behavior. Fear of loss, unfortunately, is a far greater motivator for many human decisions than hope of gain.....fear of losing face or affection or employment or money or whatever. This is a primitive and destructive force and is used by the priesthood to gain power over others....but it has never been used by God or by Jesus or any other spiritual beings. So called salvation is a license to sin for sin is "forgiven" and yet it is not. Its judgement is instant and so is its penalty for the person who commits knowing acts of evil (error made into sin) is dimminished thereby and moves further away from the truth, beauty, and goodness that the spirit led person grows to discern and appreciate and share and be grateful for to Him who created all that is true, beautiful, and good. Fear Not is the watchword Jesus gave to us....for what is there to fear? Fear is itself evil and can be sinful....to generate fear in others is pure iniquity....and woe unto those who employ it for their own advantage! Peace.

Edited by fanofVan, 07 July 2012 - 06:02 PM.

Peace be upon you."

#18 Bonita

Bonita

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 3,523 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 07 July 2012 - 06:01 PM

What's the diffrence between a mistaken judgement and an immoral judgement?


Mistaken judgment is the result of immature choosing, it is not sin because it is not conscious and deliberate, it is merely an error of judgment due to lack of insight or inadequacies of education, intellect and culture.

In order to make an immoral judgment, one must first be a moral person. An immoral choice by a moral person would necessarily be deliberate and conscious, therefore not a mere mistake due to a lack of understanding.

195:7.13 It is also true that one must first be a moral person before one can perform immoral acts.

#19 Bradly aka/fanofVan

Bradly aka/fanofVan

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 793 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Midwest USA
  • Interests:Gardening, sustainable agriculture/micro-farming, history, philosophy, behavioral psych, economics (quit laughing), the blues, learning from children.

Posted 08 July 2012 - 01:16 PM

Howard seems to be mixing many different issues into a single one and begins with a premise I don't buy at all...."many people seem to come to the book as an escape from rigid moralism.." is a sweeping indictment I have not found to be true in the past 40 years at all. Heck of a way to begin and no substantiation offered. TUB attracts a wide spectrum of truth seekers to be sure, including some of the most devout and moral and socially activated of all Urantians. It would be far more accurate to claim most seekers have abandoned the fear based hypocracies of institutionalized religion, rather than morality, in search of a more personal, real, and active truth. And they must work hard to find it in the Revelation....one cannot be lazy or morally indifferent and embrace the truths within TUB or the Truth of TUB either one.

And he appears to believe that fear of punishment is a good thing somehow, a social uplifter and moral boundry necesarry to extract good choices....clearly against TUB teachings to the contrary. These presentations infer a dissatisfaction with the truths presented....and on another thread, he is concerned about the source of TUB as well, showing much doubt as to its authenticity. The good news is that there is little that must be believed to survive and little that must be done to receive God's gentle mercies. But truly there is much to gain by growing in faith and acting in love and the more truth realized thereby, the more truth we will discover in the relationships, meanings, and values discerned in those faith acts. God speaks to each of us and the more we listen, the more He speaks. And while survival of the mortal experience does not carry a heavy burden of eligibility, ascendency and finaliter status have very heavy burdens of transformation and mind discipline and transcendence on the eternal adventure to come after....if one waits for "after". Believers are not waiting....we are changing and growing and becoming...and we live in the Kingdom here and now because we believe it is the Way given to us over 2000 years ago.

TUB does not speak to anyone. It is not God's voice. It can only inspire the mind to "hear" God's voice and the heart to feel His love. Whatever brings that inspiration is valid and true...or valid and true enough....to bring ascendent progress and soul content. Best wishes Howard in your quest for truth, beauty, and goodness....Peace.
Peace be upon you."

#20 Howard509

Howard509

    Poster

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 352 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 09 July 2012 - 12:01 AM

I believe that the Urantia Book, regardless of its authorship, integrates the best concepts of religion, science and philosophy that mankind has ever known. I also believe that, at least for me, personality extinction is an incentive for living a more righteous life, even though loss of fellowship with God in the present is an incentive as well.

We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience. -
Teilhard de Chardin





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users