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Carpe Diem Dec.21st 2012


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#1 God's Gumshoe

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 06:51 PM

Carpe diem,… Dec 21, 2012
If you have any thoughts about this matter (below) please join in the discussion here and please join us on The Cosmic Citizen, Saturday May 26th, 2012, (or catch the archive version.) http://www.blogtalkr...m/cosmiccitizen

Signed .... God's Gumshoe


Quote:
From, The Meredith J. Sprunger Archive:
"If you are not a positive and missionary evangel of your religion, you are self-deceived in that what you call religion is only a traditional belief or a mere system of intellectual philosophy. The Urantia Book [paper 160:5.3 ]
Many of us have received just enough of an inoculation of religion to have developed an immunity to the real thing. We can comfortably intellectualize and emote about it endlessly and thereby escape the fruit-bearing demands of action. Neither high sounding words, grandiose plans, nor good intentions are substitutes for service and ministry, for actually doing the Father's will.
Religionists have often side-stepped the demanding discipline of spiritual ministry by engaging in religious substitutes such as theologizing, in-group rule-making, legalism, defensive power struggles, dogmatic proclamation, and mystic contemplation. The basic teaching of Jesus can be summarized by three words: attitude, action, and outreach.
Jesus admonishes us that we are responsible for amplifying and sharing the truth that has been given to us. On pages 1917-18 we read, "Truth is living; the Spirit of Truth is ever leading the children of light into new realms of spiritual reality and divine service. You are not given truth to crystallize into settled, safe, and honored forms. Your revelation of truth must be so enhanced by passing through your personal experience that new beauty and actual spiritual gains will be disclosed to all who behold your spiritual fruits and in consequence thereof are led to glorify the Father who is in heaven. Only those faithful servants who thus grow in the knowledge of the truth, and who thereby develop the capacity for divine appreciation of spiritual realities, can ever hope to ‘enter fully into the joy of their lord.' What a sorry sight for successive generations of the professed followers of Jesus to say regarding their stewardship of divine truth: ‘Here, Master, is the truth you committed to us a hundred or a thousand years ago. We have lost nothing; we have faithfully preserved all you gave us; we have allowed no changes to be made in that which you taught us; here is the truth you gave us.' But such a plea concerning spiritual indolence will not justify the barren steward of truth in the presence of the Master. In accordance with the truth committed to your hands will the Master of truth require reckoning."
We are reminded on p. 557 of The Urantia Book that "The evolving soul is not made divine by what it does, but by what it strives to do." We ought to strive to whet the appetites of our associates for truth, but not be overly concerned about results.
From God’s Gumshoe:
I am of the opinion that the moment we have all been waiting for is about to arrive. I speak of the December 21, 2012. (12/21/2012) phenomenon that is sweeping our planet. The problem is, It is being seized upon by all the wrong ideas. "THE END OF THE WORLD" scenarios are out of control, and we who hold the Truth in our hands (with THE URANTIA BOOK) stand, puzzled at this phenomenon and wonder, "WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN?" I believe we have a unique opportunity, staring us in the face... The moment we have all been waiting for.... The moment that THE FIFTH REVELATION, THE URANTIA BOOK, is brought forward into the public eye. That moment is now.
Carpe diem
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
Carpe diem is a phrase from a Latin poem by Horace . It is popularly translated as "seize the day". Carpe literally means "to pick, gather". But Ovid used the word in the sense of, "to enjoy, seize, use, make use of".[1]
I believe that the readers of The Urantia Book can mobilize a sufficient and enduring influence, strong enough to change the narrative that is presently “out there” and SEIZE THIS DAY (December 21, 2012. ) as THE DAY THE TRUTH WAS MADE KNOWN (again). We have been studying for 60 years; we have the best teachers in the world on board. We have a multitude of excellent artist, musicians, broadcasters, poets, scribes and authors. As well we have a technology that gives Mother Earth a Nervous System, thru which, should flow the real concepts of TRUTH, BEAUTY, AND GOODNESS. We are quickly losing our elders, who's voice must be heard. A magical cosmic moment is on the horizon and THE URANTIA PAPERS ARE AN IDEA WHOSE TIME HAS COME!!!.

Let us gather together, bring all our best ideas and support mechanism, to bare on this opportunity and TOGETHER WE WILL SEIZE THE DAY... and we will control the message of TRUTH , BEAUTY, AND GOODNESS,.... This is the time THAT OUR HOPES AND DREAMS, OUR PURPOSE AND MISSION, MEET,…AND OUR MOMENT IN TIME HAS ARRIVED.


Quote:
JESUS TOLD US IN PAPER 155:

"But you who have been called out of darkness into the light are expected to believe with a whole heart; your faith shall dominate the combined attitudes of body, mind, and spirit.
155:6.18 You are my apostles, and to you religion shall not become a theologic shelter to which you may flee in fear of facing the rugged realities of spiritual progress and idealistic adventure; but rather shall your religion become the fact of real experience which testifies that God has found you, idealized, ennobled, and spiritualized you, and that you have enlisted in the eternal adventure of finding the God who has thus found and sonshipped you.
155:6.19 And when Jesus had finished speaking, he beckoned to Andrew and, pointing to the west toward Phoenicia, said: "Let us be on our way.""


My Friends, LET US BE ON OUR WAY. THE MOMENT YOU HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR IS ARRIVED AND YOUR TIME IS AT HAND. RISE UP AND SPEAK YOUR TRUTH and know that the SPIRIT OF TRUTH has gone before you, preparing and making clear the way. As we are told in (paper 135: 6, Isaiah 40:3) "Go tell your masters that you have heard `the voice of one crying in the wilderness,' as spoken by the prophet, saying, `make ready the way of the Lord, make straight a highway for our God. Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; the uneven ground shall become a plain, while the rough places shall become a smooth valley; and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.'"

We have been in the wilderness long enough. To those who much is given, much is expected.
OUR TIME IS AT HAD AND THE REVELATION CALLS US TO A PARTICULAR MOMENT IN TIME. December 21, 2012.

Don't wait for some "authority" to tell you what to do, or how to do it. ASK GOD, WITHIN YOU, AND FOLLOW HIS/HERS GUIDANCE.

Let us be about OUR FATHERS BUSINESS. (Again ISAIAH 40 Says)
ISA 40:28,

Quote:
Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is an eternal God, the creator of the whole earth. He does not get tired or weary; there is no limit to his wisdom.
He gives strength to those who are tired; to the ones who lack power, he gives renewed energy.
40:31 But those who wait for the Lord’s help find renewed strength; they rise up on wings of eagles’, they run without growing weary, they walk without getting tired.

It has been said: THE TIME IS AT HAND. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO???
Perhaps this is something that you could send on to the various email lists, and study groups.
What do you think? Respond to this post. Spread it around, (to other boards, twitter, facebook, etc. and then Join us on The Cosmic Citizen, Saturday May 26th, 2012, (or catch the archive version.)
http://www.blogtalkr...m/cosmiccitizen


God's Gumshoe
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#2 Meredith Van Woert

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 09:05 PM

Hi Gumshoe,

To each his own; people are entitled to their own tastes and opinions, so I'll share mine.

Sounds like some people are tired of waiting for the UB to come alive, so to speak, in the lives of truth seekers, truth lovers, and truth finders. As you may know, The Urantia Book already is coming into the public eye.

Speaking for myself, I do not understand what is the big hurry in getting this into the public eye? Impatience? Disappointment? Fear? Or something else?

Over the many years I've been studying the book I've been aware of two schools of thought on this. I call the first the-rabbitt-way - the get-the-book-in-the-public-eye-as-fast-as-possible-way, and the second the tortise way - the patient-slow-dissemmination-way. Even so, the Internet is a tremendous boon to dissemination. I heard 65,000 copies of the book were downloaded last year.

I am not attracted to the quick ieda. But what the heck. Once people get an idea such as this, and once the idea fires up a big passion, people are going to run with it and go where it takes them, whether or not other people like it. I speak only for myself when I say it does not appeal to me. Meredith Sprunger's motivational speaking just doesn't ring for me. Too fire and brimstone for me. And I prefer the slow approach. But I also know that each of us have our preferences in this matter, and each is entitled to his own.

All the best,
Meredith

#3 Pike aka Hrvoje Pajk

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 01:09 AM

hello,

I must agree with Meredith.
Even Jesus first try with fast way and he realised it is not good.
Then he turned his tactics and it seems it was the better way. To one who lives in eternity (and it includes all who finished the step of material existence) 1000 Urantian years is like a moment.
We would all like to live in the world that everybody lives wholehartly Jesuses teachings. But the foundations of the faith must be very deep and strong so it can withstand every posible quake it may try to shake it.

peace be with you brother
Hrvoje
Peace be upon you

#4 Bonita

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Posted 26 May 2012 - 08:25 AM

Oh God, here we go again. I'll repeat what Jesus said, "May your wisdom equal your zeal and your courage atone for your ignorance.” (140.7.5 ) And TUB tells us: "..the power of any idea lies, not in its certainty or truth, but rather in the vividness of its human appeal." ( p1005:5 92:3.3)

Meredith wrote: "Neither high sounding words, grandiose plans, nor good intentions are substitutes for service and ministry, for actually doing the Father's will."

And what is the Father's will? God's will is a personal religious experience. GOD'S WILL IS NOT A BOOK.

Gumshoe wrote: ". . . we who hold the Truth in our hands (with THE URANTIA BOOK) stand, puzzled at this phenomenon and wonder, "WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN?"

First of all, truth is living, and does not live in any one particular book at any one particular time. Second of all we don't hold truth in our hands, he lives in our hearts and minds. Third, if you know Truth, if you have a relationship with him, then you're not wondering about WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. You KNOW that December 21, 2012 is a day like any other day and you also know that every day is filled with truth and revelation if you share your life with God.

IT'S ABOUT GOD . . . IT IS NOT ABOUT A BOOK.

#5 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 09:10 AM

I am very interested in this discussion....and not dissimiliar to a thread with Majestone recently. For even in the quotes provided by Meredith above, the words say that by living the Truth, others will respond to that living way. But it is also true that every epochal revelation before TUB established a formalized corps of missionaries and teachers for spreading the word. So TUB evangelicals are "living" the Truth (as they know it). I can find no call or expectation that all are called to evangelize or take up the role of missionary and Bonita has certainly provided ample text to support the "as we pass by" concept as the universal call to responsive-activation (growth of capacity and experience and perspective) of personal ministries.

As an old Brotherhood activist and admirer of Meredith, I was long frustrated by the glacial "progress" and the friction between groups in mutual support of TUB but mutual distrust of priorities, strategies, and tactics for its dissemination. Now I am pleased by the implementation and unification of many, maybe all (?), of the diverse strategies. I've always been confounded as to the HOW of spreading the Truth of the Book by the spreading of the Book itself or without the Book as the core "product" of dissemination as both strategies have inherent flaws - the Book is SOOO big and daunting to those who prefer sound bites or must be lured to the entirety by some of its elements but spreading the Truth inside without the text - the source and authority for formalized evangelizing - and not be hijacked by cults of personality and misinterpretation. Quite a pickle really. Until, I feel, the internet was adapted for the purpose of doing both at the same time....the daily quotes I get and the OPADs and the topical discussions AND the entire text for FREE and in any quantity you have the appetite for!!

So, I am of the mind that this digital dissemination device was well known when we were blessed with this volumenous Truth and that, while it is important to both live/grow in Truth and spread the Truth, that I am witnessing and experiencing both today in ways I only dreamed of and hoped for 25 years ago when I too was evangelistic and impatient. TUB is the acorn for those living and growing in its Truth to become the mighty oak of social progress to come. Regarding the call for action and support of other's actions, it seems we each and all have 3 choices: resist those who would use TUB's Truth to evangelize; organize an "official" training for a Truth Corps and guide/endorse "affiliated" missionaries; or neither resist nor support as a "body" of believers. Like Bonita, I believe the Truth lives in hearts, not books, and the world needs God and not another book about God. And none of the prior revelations were books for dissemination WITH the teachings....but they did have "official" training and a scripted message, well learned and rehearsed and lived, when they went out to spread the truth by living it and telling it both.

I have no clue which is the "right" strategy for "managing" missionaries - resist, organize, or make individual choices only. But I am thrilled to witness the results already of this www tool which makes all of us who post and share the message and the text and the secondary, supporting works missionaries in a wholly new way with far greater potential for outreach and spreading the Good News than any prior revelation. So I, too, reject at least the notion that nothing is being done or not enough or not quick enough for this shows simple impatience and frustration over the RESULTS which are not ours to manage and can, potentially, demonstrate a lack of faith for God's power and outworking of Love and its ministry. But this does not mean evangelism is no longer important - to the evangelist and those evangelized. What I like most about the "official" websites is their constant scrutiny by moderators and by the group knowledge/wisdom to keep it real and TUB centered - there is no controling the voices of independents any other way.

Jesus once said something like (The Decapolis Tour) those who are not against us are for us..."let the guy preach!" to the astonishment and consternation of those apostles who felt they "owned" the Truth. I will be eternally grateful for the caring and sharing of the brilliant minds and glowing hearts of those "missionary evangelists" whose words I read and pray on here daily and for you "missionary evangelists" who build and manage this www bridge of Truth from the Revelation to the population of Urantia. Interesting issue......Peace.

Edited by fanofVan, 28 May 2012 - 09:28 AM.

Peace be upon you."

#6 Bonita

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 10:29 AM

Evangelism does not necessarily mean zealous revivalism. Evangelism simply means being a living example of one's own faith, spreading the gospel. In my view, if you need to zealously preach and revive human interest in your personal religious ideal, whatever it may be, then your faith is misguided. "Have you faith? Then have it to yourself."

If you want to spread the gospel, then you have to know what the gospel is, you have to live it yourself quite religiously; and the Master's personal gospel is: the Fatherhood of God and the universal brotherhood of all men. p1084:10

"I admonish you ever to remember that your mission among men is to proclaim the gospel of the kingdom--the reality of the fatherhood of God and the truth of the sonship of man. Proclaim the whole truth of the good news, not just a part of the saving gospel. Your message is not changed by my resurrection experience. Sonship with God, by faith, is still the saving truth of the gospel of the kingdom. You are to go forth preaching the love of God and the service of man. That which the world needs most to know is: Men are the sons of God, and through faith they can actually realize, and daily experience, this ennobling truth." p2052:04

We are told to proclaim what is real and true and that can be done only if we are living what is real and true ourselves. I don't see anything about a particular book in that admonishment because books are only adjuncts to what is real and true. That doesn't mean that the book isn't useful, otherwise why would it be here? It is supplementary. What I'm saying is that the book is not the message, it complements the message for those who want to know more. First, get people safely into the kingdom before you pound them with the book. And how do you do that? By being a 24/7 kingdom dweller yourself, by living a real and true life as a faith-son.

#7 Pike aka Hrvoje Pajk

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 11:43 AM

i agree. I think book is here to start us to wonder, make questions to ourselves.
Question is the thing that make us go forward, to find what is set for us to be find.
The biggest lessons in my life I learned this way.
Question was set, answer searched, truth found.
Peace be with you
Peace be upon you

#8 Bonita

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 12:57 PM

The biggest lessons in my life started with moral conflict. Learning came from the decisions and choices I made. Much depended on how discriminating I was, how deeply I looked at the problem and how honestly I assessed the aftermath of my decision. I would like mulligans on many of my decisions. Often, the most painful of mistakes and errors of judgment have proven to be the most valuable. Sometimes I wonder if you really measure progress by the number of screw-ups you make.

I certainly understand why some people are filled with desire to share the Book. There's no doubt that some of the Book content helps tremendously with dispelling confusing myth. It is a comfort to know we are not alone in the universe and more of a comfort to know that we are loved so much. These ideas are marvelous gifts, but it takes more than reading the Book to accept these ideas as more than facts (things) written on paper. Truth has to come alive in order for it to make an impact. The ideas in the Book need fertile soil to take root, and that would be a truth-hungry mind. Are those who live in fear that the world will end in 227 days also truth-hungry? It's hard to say. Some will believe myth over truth any day of the week if it appeals to their emotions.

Wouldn't it be better to help people realize that they're sons of an eternally loving God rather than a time-conscious destructive God? And how better to help them with this reality than to be living proof of it yourself with fearless and courageous living of the gospel, unafraid to make mistakes, open to the challenge of the inexplicable, enthused by discouragement, uncertainty and apparent defeat! Even if the world ends in 227 days, it's an opportunity to display unconquerable faith because in liaison with God, nothing, absolutely nothing is impossible! So, if you want to evangelize, evangelize that!

#9 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 02:05 PM

With the intent only to generate discussion, I am curious as to what degree you believe the readership should organize itself for shared/group ministry. Over time I have come to appreciate group wisdom and its distinction from democratic where consensus is the prize rather than a populist majority. It appears to me, based on TUB's presentation, that administration and beuracracy IS the means to this eternity and ascension and creation process. Which disappoints me in some ways, for it can be so cumbersome and slow and contentious even, that I naively hoped for....... magic I suppose. But this is not to be. Ever. While this should get easier and more predictable in outcome beyond our mortality, it seems to be our burden to bear here...to join together in magnification of our aggregation in cooperation with mutual purpose and power. That was brutal and painful for the movement not so long ago. May our group wisdom grow as does our group of readers and eventual believers. I am in awe of what has been accomplished in this manner to date by my fellow Urantians. Bless you. Peace.
Peace be upon you."

#10 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 04:49 PM

Gumshoe - After a sabbatical absence from personal involvement in our movement, and upon more research at the many different service and mission oriented sites today, I must say I am mystified, now, by many of your positions and your own mission is a case in point. I simply cannot believe the opportunities for supporting the dissemination of TUB itself and the Truth within it - I simply cannot run out of examples of outreach by hundreds, even thousands, of souls. There is a UAI teaching mission and leadership development ministry and a wide spectrum of support and supporting materials no matter what one's interest or skill - one of which is your show on blogradio and your website I reached through the Fellowship site. Today's multi-faceted spectum is far grander and more diverse than in 1999 - exponentially so!! Just read that within a short time (for more patient souls) over 2/3 of the planet will have a complete and literal translation in their native tongue - including Mandarin!! WOW!!

Your impatience simply has no evidence to support itself. And this notion that "....the time we've all been waiting for..." has also not been adequately addressed by you. Who's waiting and what's about to happen? And then finally, your impatience indicates a concern that this battle or war (more accurately evolution) is somehow in jeopardy and God is losing?! Or will if we all don't hurry up and DO SOMETHING, when in actuality much is being done by many already!!! I am not impressed by such urgency nor in ignoring all that is going on around you every day on a planetary basis by so many!? I liked your show and your site and am happy one so dedicated as you has voice and audience. But this Carpe Diam notion is misplaced and false and gives the wrong impression of urgency and possible failure....and neither is really the case at all. To give hope to the fearful is a true and loving kindness and worthy ministry. But you are hardly alone, this is not a new call, or even a renewed call to service, and the outcome I assure you is quite certain!! May God bless your ministry to the Brotherhood of Man and may you be as wise as a serpent and innocent as the dove. Peace.
Peace be upon you."

#11 Bonita

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 07:54 AM

With the intent only to generate discussion, I am curious as to what degree you believe the readership should organize itself for shared/group ministry.


I think it's pretty clear that people are meant to organize into groups at multiple levels. I think it's one of those adjutant spirits, number 5, that impels us to do that . . . can't be avoided really. It's not of matter of should; it's a matter of normal human behavior. I wouldn't try to equate that with wisdom though.

Over time I have come to appreciate group wisdom and its distinction from democratic where consensus is the prize rather than a populist majority. It appears to me, based on TUB's presentation, that administration and beuracracy IS the means to this eternity and ascension and creation process.


Huh? What? . . . Are you saying that groups determine individual ascension and eternal survival? That's weird. Not all groups are created equal you know. What group on earth today has members with morontia wisdom? I don't know any, do you? Seems to me that individual votes within a group shouldn't count for much without it.

45:7.6 Suffrage is universal on Jerusem among these three groups of citizenship, but the vote is differentially cast in accordance with the recognized and duly registered personal possession of mota — morontia wisdom. The vote cast at a Jerusem election by any one personality has a value ranging from one up to one thousand. Jerusem citizens are thus classified in accordance with their mota achievement.

Proselytizing, evangelistic, revivalist TUB preachers who believe that they are apostles of a new religion forget that religion evolves. Groups come and groups go. Leaders come and leaders go. It's the nature of evolution to wax and wane, to change. Slowly, very slowly, new ideas get incorporated into the old, they morph into something humanized no matter what you do. The new principles, symbols and ideas introduced by TUB will slowly creep into the general thought process of mankind, a little from this group and a little from that group. No group can claim ownership or attempt to rule . . . groups just share.

TUB tells us that Christianity holds the slumbering truth of Jesus' teachings and that in time, this truth will, through metamorphosis, emerge triumphant. This is the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about. We're not supposed to start a new religion, we're supposed to rediscover the one we were already given. There are a more than a few religious groups out there that will balk at this. Most, really.

170:5.21 Mistake not! there is in the teachings of Jesus an eternal nature which will not permit them forever to remain unfruitful in the hearts of thinking men. The kingdom as Jesus conceived it has to a large extent failed on earth; for the time being, an outward church has taken its place; but you should comprehend that this church is only the larval stage of the thwarted spiritual kingdom, which will carry it through this material age and over into a more spiritual dispensation where the Master's teachings may enjoy a fuller opportunity for development. Thus does the so-called Christian church become cocoon in which the kingdom of Jesus' concept now slumbers. The kingdom of the divine brotherhood is still alive and will eventually and certainly come forth from this long submergence, just as surely as the butterfly eventually emerges as the beautiful unfolding of its less attractive creature of metamorphic development.

#12 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 09:06 AM

No, I am not saying personal ascension has ANYTHING to do with group think or group decisions or group actions - but social progress does require(?) groups to act through an administrative process that TUB describes as universal - beauracracy delivered mandates of group decisions. And even motal groups "are not created equal" to be sure. I was inquiring about the best method of attaining these group decisions and mandates. There is a presentation in TUB on group wisdom being superior to the individual, subjective perspective, for determining goals, strategies, and tactics for group action. It would appear from your response that there is a "weighted" democracy (1 to 1000 votes per individual) or plurality even at the morontial or even higher administrations of universal organizations?

Love the quote on Christianity as cocoon! For truly is not the 5th revelation an expansion of the 4th?
Peace be upon you."

#13 Bonita

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 09:58 AM

Are you talking about the way the universe is administered by celestial beings, or the way the world is administered by human beings? Rodan did say:

160:2.7 2. Union of souls — the mobilization of wisdom. Every human being sooner or later acquires a certain concept of this world and a certain vision of the next. Now it is possible, through personality association, to unite these views of temporal existence and eternal prospects. Thus does the mind of one augment its spiritual values by gaining much of the insight of the other. In this way men enrich the soul by pooling their respective spiritual possessions. Likewise, in this same way, man is enabled to avoid that ever-present tendency to fall victim to distortion of vision, prejudice of viewpoint, and narrowness of judgment. Fear, envy, and conceit can be prevented only by intimate contact with other minds. I call your attention to the fact that the Master never sends you out alone to labor for the extension of the kingdom; he always sends you out two and two. And since wisdom is superknowledge, it follows that, in the union of wisdom, the social group, small or large, mutually shares all knowledge.

I'm not sure if wisdom is really super knowledge or that it is possible to mutually share all knowledge within a group. I do believe, however, that we have no choice but to pool our collective mental resources, but how it is done is not as important as actually doing it, sharing insights and viewpoints. However, the process needs to be dramatically refined before it can become a means to make any kind of mandate regarding human behavior.

With the development of the internet, right now we are glutted with a pooling of minds. We have not yet learned how to discern worthwhile thinking from all thinking. Like-minded thinkers will naturally form a group and pool their ideas, but there is nothing to prevent them from distortion, prejudice or narrowness of judgment. And just because you have a large group of people with the same distorted thinking and prejudices, it doesn't mean that because of their sheer numbers they have anything of value to offer or any right to demand it. Didn't we just learn this lesson in the 40's?

#14 Bonita

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 11:02 AM

Another thought. You wrote:

. . . but social progress does require(?) groups to act through an administrative process that TUB describes as universal - beauracracy delivered mandates of group decisions.


I'm not familiar with TUB describing a universal, bureaucracy delivered mandate of group decisions. Where is that quote? Are you referring to justice vs. mercy? Jesus said:

133.1.2 Mercy ministry is always the work of the individual, but justice punishment is the function of the social, governmental, or universe administrative groups. . . .Cannot you discern that no two persons are likely to agree as to the punishment which would satisfy the demands of justice? One would impose forty lashes, another twenty, while still another would advise solitary confinement as a just punishment. Can you not see that on this world such responsibilities had better rest upon the group or be administered by chosen representatives of the group? In the universe, judgment is vested in those who fully know the antecedents of all wrongdoing as well as its motivation. In civilized society and in an organized universe the administration of justice presupposes the passing of just sentence consequent upon fair judgment, and such prerogatives are vested in the juridical groups of the worlds and in the all-knowing administrators of the higher universes of all creation.

Then there is this quote:

10:6.18 Justice is the collective thought of righteousness; mercy is its personal expression.

I was inquiring about the best method of attaining these group decisions and mandates. There is a presentation in TUB on group wisdom being superior to the individual, subjective perspective, for determining goals, strategies, and tactics for group action.


The group is only useful in determining what is fair. I don't think this has anything at all to do with the formation or evolution of religion. I think Jesus was talking about governance of society and just punishment. Religion is an individual experience, as is mercy. Granted, socialized religion which has become a cult can make group decisions about justice within the cult, but ideally Church and state should be separate. Right?

#15 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:46 PM

Bonita - I'll do some research on A Neighboring Planet, the Prince's staff, the Garden, and the Jerusem administration you cited above. What I'm wondering has to do with human affairs' admin models based on celestial admin and process. When I refer to beauracracy, I simply mean the administration of policy and how is policy determined for the hosts to execute? It seems to me that the universe in its near-entirety (even Havona?) is supported by many types of beings at many different levels of responsibility to execute variable policies determined by superiors in administrative and reporting cooperation (beauracracy) and these systems are not abrogated nor abreviated in their execution by individuals (folks are not running around the universe just doing their thing).

I'm wondering if there is an idealized model or pattern presented for our application on-planet, especially for those who seek to organize a group of like-minded individuals (UB believers for example) on how to cooperatively organize and execute policies and priorities for our work of presenting TUB and its Truth. Not justice adjudication - simple organization and admin. with an indeterminate amount of morontia mota as our measurement of votes and wisdom. Or, are we left to our own best devices as our social and spiritual progression allows? I'll also research "group wisdom" beginning with Rodan's quote above, for it is my understanding that, beyond justice, there is a "group" wisdom that is greater than the subjectivity of any one within the group - a collective knowledge and wisdom more dependable.

However, as you point out, shared delusions and falsehoods are no less delusional or false simple by their sharing in a group no matter it's size. And ego and truth's shadow remain for all human endeavors. Simply looking for guidance on the issue. I offer no criticism of how TUB readers and believers are now organized and know of no specifics I would challenge or change but as a witness and participant to the "sausage making" process of our group(s) in the 90's (wonderful result but very ugly to watch - especially if you're in the grinder), just hopeful there is something other than such painful evolution?
Peace be upon you."

#16 Bonita

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 07:47 AM

Bonita - I'll do some research on A Neighboring Planet, the Prince's staff, the Garden, and the Jerusem administration you cited above. What I'm wondering has to do with human affairs' admin models based on celestial admin and process. When I refer to beauracracy, I simply mean the administration of policy and how is policy determined for the hosts to execute? It seems to me that the universe in its near-entirety (even Havona?) is supported by many types of beings at many different levels of responsibility to execute variable policies determined by superiors in administrative and reporting cooperation (beauracracy) and these systems are not abrogated nor abreviated in their execution by individuals (folks are not running around the universe just doing their thing).


Actually, I think that there is a lot of self-governing by folks running around doing God's thing. Of course you get the occasional rebel doing his own thing, and we know how that goes. God lets him do it up to a point and then spends a near-eternity, in human comprehension, waiting for him to be convinced that it's better to get back to doing God's thing. Yes the universe is highly structured and organized and there is a definite hierarchy, they use a third of the book to explains all of this, but celestial people are created specifically to fill those roles. The rest of us have to learn from the bottom up, by making mistakes and trying different methods. Other than self-government, there is an ideal form of human government, but TUB tells us we have to figure it out ourselves, we have to EARN it.

70:12.20 While there is a divine and ideal form of government, such cannot be revealed but must be slowly and laboriously discovered by the men and women of each planet throughout the universes of time and space.

But what does that have to do with a TUB group? Don't you first have to ask yourself what the function of your group is going to be before you attempt to govern it? Is it going to be a religious group, a fellowship or social group, an educational group, a business group (for printing and dispersing books), an evangelical outreach group, a political action group, a service group or some kind of hybrid group? Much is determined by your purpose and I think TUB says that most social groups do best if they function based upon the family model. Educational groups do best if they function like the schools of the Planetary Prince and Adam and Eve. Business is best using fair and enlightened capitalism. For political groups currently it's representative democracy, until we figure out a better way. As for religion, we're not supposed to create a new religion; we're supposed to upstep the ones we already have.

70:12.2 . . . the ideal government is the representative system wherein leadership is based on ability . . .
84:7.29
Human society would be greatly improved if the civilized races would more generally return to the family-council practices of the Andites. They did not maintain the patriarchal or autocratic form of family government. They were very brotherly and associative, freely and frankly discussing every proposal and regulation of a family nature. They were ideally fraternal in all their family government. In an ideal family filial and parental affection are both augmented by fraternal devotion.

And once you decide what kind of group you want to form, you have to decide from what angle the individuals are going to approach that function. If it's from a religious point of view, then read the following quote which says that religionists shouldn't form groups within society for any purpose other than religion.

p1087:6 99:2.3 Religionists must function in society, in industry, and in politics as individuals, not as groups, parties, or institutions. A religious group which presumes to function as such, apart from religious activities, immediately becomes a political party, an economic organization, or a social institution. Religious collectivism must confine its efforts to the furtherance of religious causes.

#17 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 09:06 AM

Once again, I am beholden to your scholarship and understanding - you're always doing my heavy lifting it seems! So, sausage it is! I will read further but I am most interested now in the last quote from p1087..."Religionists must function...as individuals.." in society, in industry, and in politics. It would appear many religions are not after all religious!
Peace be upon you."

#18 Bonita

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 10:29 AM

It would appear many religions are not after all religious!


Yup, that's right. Most religions are human institutions of lifeless intellectual beliefs, meaningless emotional ceremonies and fruitless philosophies of living. But that's the kind of stuff man makes up when left on his own. It's inevitable. Jesus said he came to initiate a new religion that is not a religion in this human sense. His is a religion of the spirit and people have a hard time grasping that, and when they think they do, they inevitably drag it down to human levels and attempt to organize it making it no longer a true religion. It's sad, really.

#19 MB Melody

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 07:09 PM

Fanofvan wrote: "I was inquiring about the best method of attaining these group decisions and mandates (snip) …especially for those who seek to organize a group of like-minded individuals (UB believers for example) on how to cooperatively organize and execute policies and priorities (snip) - simple organization and admin, with an indeterminate amount of morontia mota as our measurement of votes and wisdom."



Fanofvan,
You might enjoy checking into the field of new-paradigm organizational management based on complexity science, chaos theory, self-organization, self-governance, and organic organizational evolution, etc.
The Self-Organizing Universe: Scientific and Human Implications of the emerging Paradigm of Evolution Erich Jantsch
Leadership and the New Science , Margaret Wheatley, Berrett-Koehler
A Simpler Way, Margaret Wheatley, Myron Kellner-Rogers, Berrett-Koehler

Bonita wrote: “Don't you first have to ask yourself what the function of your group is going to be…(snip) Much is determined by your purpose…”

Robert Greenleaf, in his book Servant Leadership, has a vision of such an institution "as a gathering of persons who have accepted a common purpose, and a common discipline to guide the pursuit of that purpose, to the end that each involved person reaches higher fulfillment as a person, through serving and being served by the common venture, than would be achieved alone or in a less committed relationship." MJ Sprunger



Chaordic Commons website: “Developing a self-organizing, self-governing organization worthy of the trust of all participants usually requires intensive effort. To maximize their chances of success, most groups have taken a year or more on the process. During that time, a representative group of individuals (sometimes called a drafting team) from all parts of the engaged organization or community meet regularly and work through the chaordic design process.

The first step is to define, with absolute clarity and deep conviction, the purpose of the community. An effective statement of purpose will be a clear, commonly understood statement of that which identifies and binds the community together as worthy of pursuit. When properly done, it can usually be expressed in a single sentence. Participants will say about the purpose, "If we could achieve that, my life would have meaning."



Perhaps something like this might be worth consideration by a group, for instance:

Our religious purpose is to proclaim the good news of eternal life for all people through our faith-centered, loving relationships with God and our wholehearted, loving service to all humanity.

Our organizational mission is to support the co-operative networking of individuals and faith communities sharing our religious goals and spiritual ideals, inspired by the Urantia Papers.

Sincerely,
Michael B

Edited by MB Melody, 30 May 2012 - 07:14 PM.


#20 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 03:45 PM

Thank you Michael - very on-point and I really like the references and your model purpose and mission statements too!! I have found it is far easier, though, to reach concensus on the mission or goal or objective - the dicier issues to agree on are the strategies and tactics to achieve the objective. But I have been deeply involved in a high-level corporate group for a year (sometime ago) of a dozen independent practitioners/owners hired to create a whole new product/service rollout for a 20,000 person division. We had 2 facilitators/psychologists working with us every step applying consensus building and decision making procedures to keep the process moving through multiple stages to create the strategies and tactics and overcome the unforseen discovered along the way (each of us was an independent business owner/practitioner so we were 12 type A's - oh yeah, the shrinks had their work to do!). It was difficult (very little blood shed but some) and rewarding and quite the learning experience. It was another time for me of making sausage from within the grinder! I would have assumed that if the Prince's mission had been successful, that we would have that idealized and universal organization and government which Bonita's quotes above mention but those quotes indicate that even on a normal planet without default(s), humankind still must evolve into these systems. I've always wondered just how much science, literature, medicine, industry, and economics are "given" by example, or how little to require humanity's evolutionary progress. Anyway thanks again, I look forward to hearing from you again. Peace.
Peace be upon you."




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