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Superior and Inferior: the Problem of Inequality


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#21 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 06:33 PM

Well.......since we have experienced such a unique plantary progression and regression and reprogression in isolation and from the loss of our on planetary Prince and staff or the Adamic bestowals and even the delay before that.....based on our situation now, what can be done to segregate or isolate the inferior in ways that uplift the planetary condition? Given the status of current human rights and our recent genocides, etc., it seems any bio/genetic strategies will be resisted as are intelligence batching (even in education surprisingly) or even birth control, etc. I see no way to get to genetic upliftment on this rock any time soon. So, to one of As Above's points - are we to the point where we must simply (well, not so simply) uplift all equally rather than attempt accelerating the improvement in gene pool....that perhaps the delivery of the golden rule was a signal to all that we must, now, work with equal vigor on behalf of all? But if so, then why does TUB relentlessly remind us we have a practical duty and obligation to improve ourselves and give direction about superior and inferior. What are we to do about that other than accept the challenge therein individually? Peace.

Edited by fanofVan, 16 August 2012 - 06:34 PM.

Peace be upon you."

#22 Bonita

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Posted 16 August 2012 - 07:41 PM

Thanks for interpreting what AASB said because I haven't been able to understand it nor have I been able to find anyone else who can. I also would like to know what "we" you are referring to and what you mean by "uplift all equally".

So you think that the reason we were given the golden rule was to start treating everyone as equals?

But not everyone is equal. Everyone has equal standing before God, and that's about it.

Why is it so hard to understand that to give people unearned benefits is evil? That's what the rebellion and default were all about.

70:9.17 But this equality ideal is the child of civilization; it is not found in nature. Even culture itself demonstrates conclusively the inherent inequality of men by their very unequal capacity therefor. The sudden and nonevolutionary realization of supposed natural equality would quickly throw civilized man back to the crude usages of primitive ages. Society cannot offer equal rights to all, but it can promise to administer the varying rights of each with fairness and equity. It is the business and duty of society to provide the child of nature with a fair and peaceful opportunity to pursue self-maintenance, participate in self-perpetuation, while at the same time enjoying some measure of self-gratification, the sum of all three constituting human happiness.

70:8.1 The mental and physical inequality of human beings insures that social classes will appear. The only worlds without social strata are the most primitive and the most advanced.

#23 Bill Martin

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:00 AM

Esteemed Fellows and colleagues,

In my crystal ball it shows the insurance industry on the ramparts of the battle against ignorant resistance to the biological uplifting/genetic manipulation of Mankind. Why not? Everyone else runs in fear from them and let them micromanage from afar. I see a future where a person's policy premium is based on a risk assessment of their DNA/RNA profile and coverage granted/denied on the same basis. This practice will diffuse from First World implementation, over time, and be forced upon the world, like it or not.

From the cosmic viewpoint of THE WHOLE, I would answer Friend of Van saying that the Celestial Overseers are probably most interested in preserving potential with which to work on later, bearing in mind the disastrous consequences of the Double Default of The Planetary Prince's Regime and The loss of The Material Son and Daughter, Adam and Eve.
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#24 Bill Martin

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:24 AM

As an interesting aside on this topic, at this very moment, a room full of the best/ and brightest minds of the Urantia Movement have been discussing this subject from the perspective of "Race" and will wind up four days/nights of intensive work tomorrow night at a dinner at UF cooked by my friend, Mike Wood and provided by Gard Jameson (Trustee Urantia Foundation)

I have a small part to play in this. I have no problem being in the "wings" as support and deem it an opportunity to serve. Having the opportunity to know some of these folks and sit in study group with them. it is clear to me that they are endowed with far more intelligence/insight/wisdom and I am thrilled to "carry water" or whatever else needs to be done to further such work. What I am saying is that I am secure in the love of God for us all, equally, as Faith Sons/Daughters and future Mortal Ascenders. If I have a sister or a brother who can do things I can not, it just pleases me they have the ability.

In the recent Oprah Wimfrey Movie, "Tuesdays With Morry," Jack Lemmon (Morry) tells a story about the waves on the ocean and how the little waves rambled freely across the ocean, enjoying their existence, until one day nearing the shore, a little wave cried out in fear, " We are nearing the hard rocky shore and we are going to crash upon the rocks and perish." Then an older wiser wave, who had been across the ocean, around the world many times reminded the frightened little wave, " Yes, you may crash upon the shore, little wave, and perish, but remember you are not only a little wave, you are part of the ocean."

I am fine with being a little wave. I have a fragment of the purest Spirit reality at my center. I am part of the Ocean.
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#25 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 07:26 AM

I only picked out one point which made me wonder - I claim no interpretive skills for any. I do not disagree with the ideals presented in the Revelation. But many presentations are that, ideals and standard proceedures on planets with far more leadership stability and sanity both....with at least one planetary culture led by our universe bestowal leadership and example. We are scrambled up pretty well to reorient nationalistic policies to cooperative and universal standards of anything "selective" or discriminating (plenty of that already but certainly not based on either love or science). So, I was just wondering how our society might act now in a reasonable pursuit of self-improvement(kudos to Bill's point - money/profit may move us to "efficiencies" and risk reduction over time). Or, are we only to act individually to discriminate only for ourself and our personal upliftment and was the GR a message of social behavior as well as personal?

Jesus also said something about....even as you treat the least, so shall you be treated....Not only do we not have enough sense and reason for civilizing by discrimination, we are way short on the love thing to both knowingly and lovingly establish policies of upliftment politically. As Bill says, perhaps it is not we who will take on this challenge but others will later in our progress. Perhaps it is up to us here and now and for some time to come to find the motive to "care" about each as a part of the all by science and commerce to end the suffering from starvation, disease, violence, and disaster.....without ANY so-called discrimination of any kind. I am encouraged that the world seems to be cooperating more in the aid to those on-planet indiscriminately from all religions and countries and institutions with a huge surge in individual donations and time volunteerism. Perhaps, this is a cycle where discrimination is not recommended on any social level as we have yet to mature beyond cruel and insane forms of discrimination. The knife is either tool....or weapon based on them who wield it, eh? The problem with "unearned benefits" as Bonita put it is who decides and on what basis....for now, we discriminate socially based on very wrong criteria and we protect greed and gluttony and avarice and punish poverty, ignorance, and infirmary. And in many countries, any of the wrong faith or color (or even denomination of the same faith) are the targeted ones. We remain so isolationist in our religions and politics today. I have no faith in any who would determine such discrimination today.

My real point was only to re-open this fascinating thread and tie the other to it, I have no solution or agenda to present. Peace.
Peace be upon you."

#26 Meredith Van Woert

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 09:40 AM

The thought gem for this day seems to be relevant to this topic - a topic with potential to stir up much passion and emotion.


Always remember that God does not reward man for what he does but for what he is; therefore should you extend help to your fellows without the thought of rewards. P.1452 - §3





All the best,
Meredith

#27 Bonita

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 10:48 AM

FoV, I think you are totally wrong about our society punishing poverty and protecting wealth. It's exactly the opposite today, which is why we are currently in such dire economic straits. In my opinion, there are way too many people totally obsessed with other people's money. It's high time that people focus on their own contribution to society and stop worrying about whether or not other people are giving their fair share. But that is a discussion meant for a political forum, not this one.

On this forum we should discuss the enlightened use of wealth and the true meaning of economic fairness and justice. And each person should make sure that they don't make the mistake of trying to pluck the mote out of his brother's eye when there's a beam in his own.

Maybe it's time to revisit Jesus' teaching on the different types of wealth in Paper 132 and what he suggested to one person on how to deal with each kind.

Ideally, there would be a voluntary flat tax; we would all (that's every adult worker regardless of income) give 10% of our earnings and profits to the public treasury. But we're so very far from the first stage of light and life that it's almost a joke to even think about it. Currently the obsession is to pay no tax at all while trying to get as much from the public treasury as you can with as little work as possible while demonizing those who do contribute to the public treasury then demand that they pay more and more to keep the Ponzi scheme going. It's so backwards and screwed up that it is no wonder at all that the US is in a recessional regression. Sooner or later the whole system is going to go bust and everyone will stand around scratching their heads wondering why, while they point the finger to all the unfair and unjust things other people did with their money. It's sick and twisted.

55:3.0-4 The public activities of a world in the first stage of light and life which I recently visited were financed by the tithing technique. Every adult worker - and all able-bodied citizens worked at something - paid ten per cent of his income or increase to the public treasury, and it was disbursed as follows:
1. Three per cent was expended in the promotion of truth - science, education, and philosophy.
2. Three per cent was devoted to beauty - play, social leisure, and art.
3. Three per cent was dedicated to goodness - social service, altruism, and religion.
4. One per cent was assigned to the insurance reserves against the risk of incapacity for labor resultant from accident, disease, old age, or unpreventable disasters.

And since you got me started on this, I want to add that property taxes punish the wealthy as well. People without land property don't pay the tax yet they send their kids to schools paid for by property owners, they benefit from police, fire, trash pick-up and other municipal services without ever paying a dime towards it. I would prefer the system used by our nearby planet which has laws on the books preventing property taxes from exceeding 1% of property value. I'm paying over 5% on my property on top of a 7% state sales tax, a 7% state income tax and a 23% federal income tax not to mention all the petty taxes affixed to telecommunications, gasoline, etc.,etc.. It threatens to balloon ever bigger until the bubble just bursts. And it will because fewer and fewer people are buying property. Before you know it, rental apartments will be subject to property tax too; they'll charge you by the square footage. It reminds me of the Beatles song, The Taxman.

Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

Should five per cent appear too small
Be thankful I don't take it all
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah I'm the taxman

If you drive a car, I'll tax the street,
If you try to sit, I'll tax your seat.
If you get too cold I'll tax the heat,
If you take a walk, I'll tax your feet.

Don't ask me what I want it for
If you don't want to pay some more
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman

#28 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:22 AM

Certainly agree the American example is one twisted affair...pure insanity. No argument there. We are spoiled within our prosperity to a depraved state of misaligned priorities which will surely end badly as TUB warns relentlessly. The decadence of prosperity and wealth is quite the pickle. But the world is filled with those without adequate basics...hardly decadent, eh? Who do we help? Why? How? And apply love and reason in our "discrimination" of resource distribution and free choice? I'm just saying its complicated and we are not in any way qualified at this time to judiciously and righteously apply such discriminating standards. Not to say political activism is undesireable nor that any of your points are incorrect.....merely complex issues and more complex solutions result from our prior lack of good judgements.

Love that song! I bet people LOVE paying "taxes" on sane worlds of progress!! True fruit on a true vine for all!! Peace.
Peace be upon you."

#29 Bonita

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 11:49 AM

132:5.20 And it will ever be impossible for men to establish rules and regulations applicable equally to all these problems of the equitable distribution of wealth. You must first recognize man as your brother, and if you honestly desire to do by him as you would have him do by you, the commonplace dictates of justice, honesty, and fairness will guide you in the just and impartial settlement of every recurring problem of economic rewards and social justice.


132:5.24 That part of your fortune which represents the earnings of your own mental and physical efforts - if your work has been done in fairness and equity - is truly your own. No man can gainsay your right to hold and use such wealth as you may see fit provided your exercise of this right does not work harm upon your fellows.

#30 Bonita

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Posted 17 August 2012 - 12:06 PM

Jesus dutifully paid all his taxes, but even he found loopholes and took advantage of them when necessary.


126:5-6 The pay of a common day-laboring carpenter was slowly diminishing. By the end of this year Jesus could earn, by working early and late, only the equivalent of about twenty-five cents a day. By the next year they found it difficult to pay the civil taxes, not to mention the synagogue assessments and the temple tax of one-half shekel. During this year the tax collector tried to squeeze extra revenue out of Jesus, even threatening to take his harp. Fearing that the copy of the Greek scriptures might be discovered and confiscated by the tax collectors, Jesus, on his fifteenth birthday, presented it to the Nazareth synagogue library as his maturity offering to the Lord.



#31 Meredith Van Woert

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 10:01 AM

Jesus offered no rules for social advancement; his was a religious mission, and religion is an exclusively individual experience. The ultimate goal of society's most advanced achievement can never hope to transcend Jesus' brotherhood of men based on the recognition of the fatherhood of God. The ideal of all social attainment can be realized only in the coming of this divine kingdom. P.2093 - §5

#32 Bonita

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 01:07 PM

140:8.15 4. Economic attitude. Jesus worked, lived, and traded in the world as he found it. He was not an economic reformer, although he did frequently call attention to the injustice of the unequal distribution of wealth. But he did not offer any suggestions by way of remedy. He made it plain to the three that, while his apostles were not to hold property, he was not preaching against wealth and property, merely its unequal and unfair distribution. He recognized the need for social justice and industrial fairness, but he offered no rules for their attainment.

Our ideas today about social justice, redistribution of wealth and industrial fairness is a far, far cry from the way Jesus lived. Jesus never took from the rich to give to the poor. The rich donated their wealth to him of their own free will; it was not taken from them. And then, it was usually Jesus who made decisions concerning redistribution, or the joint decision of at least two apostles, in order to avoid indiscriminate kindness, the source of many social evils.

163:2.11 Jesus never personally had anything to do with the apostolic finances except in the disbursement of alms.

140:8.13 He made it clear that indiscriminate kindness may be blamed for many social evils. The following day Jesus definitely instructed Judas that no apostolic funds were to be given out as alms except upon his request or upon the joint petition of two of the apostles. In all these matters it was the practice of Jesus always to say, "Be as wise as serpents but as harmless as doves." It seemed to be his purpose in all social situations to teach patience, tolerance, and forgiveness.

#33 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 04:42 PM

Posted above by Bonita: "FoV, I think you are totally wrong about our society punishing poverty and protecting wealth. It's exactly the opposite today, which is why we are currently in such dire economic straits. In my opinion, there are way too many people totally obsessed with other people's money. It's high time that people focus on their own contribution to society and stop worrying about whether or not other people are giving their fair share. But that is a discussion meant for a political forum, not this one."

I'm going to disagree with you on this....but only about the "political" forum. Otherwise, I think this is a good forum and an excellent thread for pursuing the issue of haves and have nots/the wealthy and the poor/the superior and inferior. Now, frankly Bonita, as a student of economics and an industry pro, I would submit that there has long existed a conspiracy of power in which money is a primary instrument (along with weaponry and other dangerous tools). All conspiracy theories are both wrong and completely accurate....once you depersonalize it from the cast of interchangeable characters who hold power at any one time. Power is amoral but does have a very corrosive and corrupting influence on most who have large quantities of it. But we all hold power over others, eh? Some way or another. Power/money is not often kind, caring, or interested in much except more of same. It contorts its holders into paranoia, greed, consolidation, and additional power pursuit. So, I do not think we can use the ideal presented above (must be where the 10% tithe in the OT comes from?) as a modern model. Personally, I am far more upset about what the taxman does with my money to feed greedy capitalists in the military industrial complex and robber baron bankers and the power-protection rackets and pork barrel wink and nod favors, etc. Poor people are not the economic or political issue.

Now American poverty is much like military intelligence, eh? Our poor have running waterm, flushing toilets, AC, big screen TV, cars, etc., etc. And those over their heads have to rent storage for all the junk and toys they consume. And those in power have more money relative to all others than anytime in history and pay the lowest taxes in over a century. The "middle" class is stuck between poverty's rock and prosperity's hard place!! But we are foolish in our prosperities at all economic levels!! So one issue is whose money is it...as you point out. Jesus said whose it is depends a lot on how you got it, no? It is certainly not true that most people with the most money earned it by sweat or stewardship so much as by taking it ruthlessly and greedily by hook or by crook. Money is not any definition of superior or inferior, no?

I offer no answer here.....but I wonder how those with wealth - family or nation - should feel and respond to the 80% of the planet population who do not have what "poor" Americans take for granted? Are we not obligated both morally and spiritually to be our brother's keeper? Do we measure who is worthy and not in that effort? Do we support those who wish to cut taxes for the wealthy while cutting spending on the poor, elderly, and young so that we CAN cut taxes for the wealthy? I am a fierce independent politically....a constitutional conservative libertarian if you will.....so I offer no partisonship here (I hate both parties with equal zest!). And my question is NOT political. As believers, what is our obligation to our brothers and sisters? And how does this weigh on issues of superior and inferior? The Master said the poor would always be with us.....a fascinating observation/prediction. Is there poverty in L&L? I know many in dire circumstances who chose their own way there to be sure. And Jesus warned about alms and sympathy to the unworthy (inferior?).

I am fascinated by the topic and Bonita, I have no quarrel with you or any position you have presented on the issue. I am genuinely puzzled by this little dichotomy of "discernment" of superior/inferior - the problem of inequality. What is equal? And what's to be done? Or are we to the point where we stay focused only on that before us and apply our spirituality and discernment as best we can and NOT get outraged by politics and economics and planetary misery and unfairness?

Peace. B) PS - this is not directed to Bonita either....interested in all perspectives. Especially non-political ones. ;)

Edited by fanofVan, 24 August 2012 - 05:13 PM.

Peace be upon you."

#34 Bonita

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 05:29 PM

If you think you know what fairness really is, then you should practice it and work really hard not get outraged when other people don't agree with your definition. And make sure you know the difference between fairness and justice too.

In my opinion, you cannot determine fairness or justice without all the facts, every tidbit of evidence on every side and then have all the data evaluated by multiple truly wise, righteous and unprejudiced people. Where exactly are you going to find that on this planet?

#35 Bradly aka/fanofVan

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 06:18 PM

Precisely!! An earlier quote said only very primitive and very advanced planets have equality of social classes....proving I suppose we are neither based on our extreme stratification based on money, education, healthcare, political freedoms, etc. The conclusion I am mulling around and coming to, I think, is .....it's not my problem to resolve or to be distraught over either one. But indifference simply cannot be right....there is no indifference in Heaven to any.

People are suffering. Why? Individual and collective bad choices for a very looonnngggg time! There are many religionists, including some TUBers, who are so focused on some "salvation" or intervention from above or heaven-bent on serving the planetary upliftment in some manner and picking causes. The Revelation teaches that religions should not even engage in social or political issues at all....their role is to produce and support activist religionists, not become social agents. So, many religionists and their religions are taking political sides to attack and destroy, or to promote and defend taxpayer supported social programs. While many in politics prefer that government NOT participate in social reform and equality but return all such to families, communities, and religionists.

You know, it has always appeared to me that the Revelation is so individually tender on one hand but so brutally indifferent to the suffering of individuals and societies at the same time. Sorry, doesn't make sense, I know. Hmmmm.....TUB presents so many paradoxes for unraveling into comprehension. Oppositional concepts which must not be in opposition in reality and truth, if intellect and discernment and experience are sufficient perhaps (another thread). What is the lucid, sane, caring, effective, and love-based thing for us to do about the suffering of others not in our immediate care or circle of love and responsibility? The only escape from capitalism is the more progressive and evolved "service" economy wherein all care for one another.....that'll be awhile, no? I am just confused, not pontificating any position or piety of understanding on the subject. Peace.
Peace be upon you."

#36 Bonita

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 07:44 PM

I think the best you can do is discover exploitation, expose it and eliminate it.

163:2.11 But there was one economic abuse which he many times condemned, and that was the unfair exploitation of the weak, unlearned, and less fortunate of men by their strong, keen, and more intelligent fellows. Jesus declared that such inhuman treatment of men, women, and children was incompatible with the ideals of the brotherhood of the kingdom of heaven.

Edited by Bonita, 24 August 2012 - 07:46 PM.


#37 Louis aka loucol

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Posted 24 August 2012 - 10:48 PM

Hi All:

There are 99 hacking at the branches of evil to every one who is striking at the roots, and it may be that those who bestow the largest amount of time and money on the needy is doing the most by their actions to produce that misery which they strove in vain to relieve.

What was Jesus' attitude toward the widespread distribution of free bread to the populace of Rome?

Louis
His Will Be Done

#38 Rick Warren

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 06:19 AM

Welcome Louis!

Are you thinking of this in Paper 132:4?:

He talked with a Roman senator on politics and statesmanship, and this one contact with Jesus made such an impression on this legislator that he spent the rest of his life vainly trying to induce his colleagues to change the course of the ruling policy from the idea of the government supporting and feeding the people to that of the people supporting the government.... P.1461 - 3



#39 Louis aka loucol

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 06:35 AM

Hi Rick:

That was exactly what I was referring to. Thank you.

Louis


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#40 Bonita

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 08:06 AM

I like this one too:

140.8.13 He made it clear that indiscriminate kindness may be blamed for many social evils.




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