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#1 collins

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:19 AM

Am not clear what the UB actually says about the circumstances surrounding the birth of Christ. To put my question in simple terms; was the conception of Christ human (thus the fertilizing of a sperm germ and egg) or some act of Godly Intervention?
Now, if it was human conception – Then how did he eventually become Christ? Is it because he was indwelt by the spirit of Machael of Nebadon?
And if it was by Godly intervention – How is that possible? Can a person (as we say – God became Flesh or man in Christ Jesus) be born without the will/act of a man (Joseph)?

#2 Bonita

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 09:53 AM

Greetings Collins and welcome,

Yes, the conception of Jesus was human and completely normal. On the other hand, something supernatural did occur that no one other than a Creator Son can ever understand. It is a universal mystery how the personality of a divine being can incarnate as a human being.

13:1.8 The secrets of Sonarington include the secret of the incarnation of the divine Sons. When a Son of God becomes a Son of Man, is literally born of woman, as occurred on your world nineteen hundred years ago, it is a universal mystery. It is occurring right along throughout the universes, and it is a Sonarington secret of divine sonship.

You asked, "Then how did he eventually become Christ? Is it because he was indwelt by the spirit of Machael of Nebadon?"

Jesus was fully human AND fully divine. It was not Michael's spirit, but Michael's personality who became human and lived with a human body. (7:5.4) He thought with a human mind until he fully discovered, recognized, interpreted and chose his divine mind just prior to his baptism. (120:4.3; 134:8.5; 127:2.12; 136:1.6; )

120:4.2 But make no mistake; Christ Michael, while truly a dual-origin being, was not a double personality. He was not God in association with man but, rather, God incarnate in man. And he was always just that combined being. The only progressive factor in such a nonunderstandable relationship was the progressive self-conscious realization and recognition (by the human mind) of this fact of being God and man.

161:3.1 Consciousness of divinity was a gradual growth in the mind of Jesus up to the occasion of his baptism. After he became fully self-conscious of his divine nature, prehuman existence, and universe prerogatives, he seems to have possessed the power of variously limiting his human consciousness of his divinity. It appears to us that from his baptism until the crucifixion it was entirely optional with Jesus whether to depend only on the human mind or to utilize the knowledge of both the human and the divine minds. At times he appeared to avail himself of only that information which was resident in the human intellect. On other occasions he appeared to act with such fullness of knowledge and wisdom as could be afforded only by the utilization of the superhuman content of his divine consciousness.

137:4.2 Jesus was now thoroughly self-conscious regarding his human existence, his divine pre-existence, and the status of his combined, or fused, human and divine natures. With perfect poise he could at one moment enact the human role or immediately assume the personality prerogatives of the divine nature.

The term Christ was applied to Jesus after his death. It simply means anointed one, or messiah. (98:7.2; 98:7.11)

#3 collins

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 06:54 AM

Let me see if I get it.
So, before he was indwelt by the personality of Michael of Nebadon; He was merely Joshua Ben Joseph and by then we technically could not refer to him as the Jesus we know today (thus, Son of God).
Now, this indwelling of Michael's personality occurred at the time of his baptism (somewhere around the age of 30) so prior to this event, he had a TA which also dwelt Machiventa Melchizedek. So the TAs are not personalized (like to say, I have my own TA) until a decision is made by (me, the TA, God,whoever) to fuse.
I can understand that I (collins), sometime after birth will be indwelt by a TA (this is the spirit of God in me; that inner voice) and that this TA helps me to build my personality ( lets say my soul) which after death, even lives on throughout Gods creations but the spirit (TA) as we literally say "returns to the Father". I dont know if am right, but that's how I understand it so far.
But when it comes to Jesus - This process of Indwelling and Personality and TA and Incarnation is Creepy to me! At this point, all I can say out of my rough understanding is that - Joshua Ben Joseph did not get/build any personality (as expected of every ascending mortal like myself) because somebody else's personality (Michael of Nebadon) took-over him at his batism and this was all made possible by the guidance of a veteran TA. And all this was foretold to Mary & Joseph.

Is This Not Creepy?

#4 Bonita

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 08:35 AM

Let me see if I get it. So, before he was indwelt by the personality of Michael of Nebadon; He was merely Joshua Ben Joseph and by then we technically could not refer to him as the Jesus we know today (thus, Son of God).


Jesus was not indwelt by Michael. Only Adjusters indwell. Michael and Jesus are the same exact personality; always were and always will be. There is no difference between the two. Jesus did not have two personalities. (That's called multiple personality disorder, a psychiatric illness. Jesus was not crazy.)

Now, this indwelling of Michael's personality occurred at the time of his baptism (somewhere around the age of 30) so prior to this event, he had a TA which also dwelt Machiventa Melchizedek.


No, Michael's personality incarnated at the time of conception. He got his TA at the age of 5, and yes his TA had a previous indwelling.

So the TAs are not personalized (like to say, I have my own TA) until a decision is made by (me, the TA, God,whoever) to fuse.


Your TA will not personalize unless you fail to survive. If all goes well, your TA will fuse with your personality and he will not get one of his own.

I can understand that I (collins), sometime after birth will be indwelt by a TA (this is the spirit of God in me; that inner voice) and that this TA helps me to build my personality ( lets say my soul) which after death, even lives on throughout Gods creations but the spirit (TA) as we literally say "returns to the Father".


First of all, TA's can't help you build a personality. Personalities don't change and personality is not the same as the soul. TA's help you grow your character so that it becomes more divine, and this is part of the evolution of a soul. The TA will never leave you and go back to the Father unless you fail to survive. Your TA is given to you as a permanent gift and the goal is for your personality to fuse with your TA, in which case you are eternally together.

I dont know if am right, but that's how I understand it so far. But when it comes to Jesus - This process of Indwelling and Personality and TA and Incarnation is Creepy to me!


If Jesus had a split personality or a multiple personality disorder, it would indeed be creepy. But you're misunderstanding the function of the mind which is not the same as the personality, or the TA, or the soul. Jesus had a human mind and a divine mind, just like we have. The only difference between Jesus and us is that Jesus had a prior existence as the Creator of a universe, so his divine mind included the memory of his divinity as well as his divine creative powers. We don't have a prior existence so our divine mind is revealed to us by the TA. Unlike Jesus, we need the TA once we fully identify with our divine mind. Jesus no longer needed his TA at that point since Jesus had prior divinity; therefore, his TA was personalized instead.

At this point, all I can say out of my rough understanding is that - Joshua Ben Joseph did not get/build any personality (as expected of every ascending mortal like myself) because somebody else's personality (Michael of Nebadon) took-over him at his batism and this was all made possible by the guidance of a veteran TA. And all this was foretold to Mary & Joseph Is This Not Creepy?


Again, people do not build personalities. However, Jesus did grow a soul during his life in the flesh, just as we do. The TUB authors are not clear as to what happened to that soul, or where it is today. They only speculate that it may be part of the Supreme.

#5 Nigel Nunn

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Posted 28 February 2012 - 12:12 PM

Hi collins and Bonita,

Thanks for starting a discussion on such an interesting topic!

Let me see if I get it.


collins, last year I asked myself the same question, and tried to express my current beliefs in three short videos. In Part 2 (about 7 minutes from the start), I try to sketch out my understanding of how the Urantia book describes the relationship between Personality, Adjuster and Soul.

Below is a link to that part. If you get a moment to watch, I would be thankful to hear what you think! What was interesting to you, where did you lose interest, where did I get off the track, what did I get wrong, etc. For viewing on a computer screen, the medium (480) resolution is Ok. For slow connections, it may be best to download and play from your computer, to avoid YouTube stops and starts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--iA7xRTSS0


with thanks!
Nigel

#6 collins

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 09:01 AM

Hi Bonita,

Thanks for breaking-down my questions and errors in understanding the UB, and for giving precise answers. I love the way you handled it (because am new to UB and the forum).

This topic is key to my understanding of TUB. From my background, this stands central to my journey to the father. But you know what! what makes me confident in my quest for truth is that - regardless of my misunderstanding of Michael's incarnation on Urantia; His teachings/sayings engulfs me so much and hits me right at the center of my heart. That alone tells me - He is the creator son - my Lord; not the truth about his birth nor the accuracy of such a narative.

OK. So Michael became Jesus right from conception and that the two are one and the same. So, do we all have our personality right from conception or that was peculiar to Michael because he had prior existence?

Another Question - What really is Personality and its survival or fusion?

Nigel, Nice to know that am not the only one who has such a question about the Incarnation process and the paradise ascension dynamics after reading the UB.

I'll watch your presentation and give you feedback.
Thanks

#7 Bonita

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Posted 29 February 2012 - 09:39 AM

OK. So Michael became Jesus right from conception and that the two are one and the same. So, do we all have our personality right from conception or that was peculiar to Michael because he had prior existence?


Excellent question Collins. No one has been able to definitively answer that and TUB only gives us clues. I don't really know, but I've chosen to believe that the potential for personality is present at conception. Personality function is dependent upon the presence of mind circuits which we know as the adjutant mind spirits. Are they present at conception, with the union of two cells? One would have to think so since some adjutant is present in unicellular organisms. In Jesus' case, Garbriel's announcement to Mary was the day after conception when there would still be only two cells in the embryo.

Another Question - What really is Personality and its survival or fusion?


That's a huge question and Nigel is the expert on personality. We have a number of threads on the topic of personality and fusion here somewhere, but I don't know how to find them. Here's a synopsis of what TUB says about personality in Paper 112:
  • There is is one part of you that remains absolutely unaltered, and that is personality-permanence in the presence of change.
  • Personality may be bestowed upon any living energy system which includes mind or spirit.
  • When personality is bestowed upon evolutionary material creatures, it causes spirit to strive for the mastery of energy-matter through the mediation of mind.
  • Personality, while devoid of identity, can unify the identity of any living energy system.
  • Personality may survive mortal death with identity in the surviving soul. The Adjuster and the personality are changeless; the relationship between them (in the soul) is nothing but change, continuing evolution; and if this change or growth ceased, the soul would cease.
  • Personality can make a gift to God-dedication of the free will to the doing of the will of God.
  • Personality is characterized by morality-awareness of relativity of relationship with other persons. It discerns conduct levels and choosingly discriminates between them.
  • Personality is unique in time and space, in eternity and on Paradise. There are no duplicates; it is unique in relation to God.
  • Personality responds directly to other personality presence.
  • The type of personality bestowed upon Urantia mortals has a potentiality of seven dimensions of self-expression or person-realization.
  • The finite dimensions of personality have to do with cosmic length, depth and breadth. Length=meaning, Depth=value, Breadth=insight. Insight means the capacity to experience unchallengeable consciousness of cosmic reality.
  • Life is a process which takes place between the organism (selfhood) and its environment. The personality imparts value of identity and meanings of continuity to this organismal-environmental association. Therefore physical life is a process that is taking place between the organism (self) and the environment.
  • It is through the mediation of mind that the organism (self) and the environment establish meaningful contact. The ability and willingness of the organism to make such significant contacts with environment (response to a drive) represents the attitude of the whole personality.
  • Personality cannot perform in isolation. Man is dominated by the craving of belongingness.
  • Personality unifies all factors of reality as well as coordinates relationships. Three or more relationships constitute a system. In a cosmic system the individual members are not connected with each other except in relation to the whole.
  • In the human organism the summation of its parts constitutes selfhood-individuality-but such a process has nothing whatever to do with personality, which is the unifier of all these factors as related to cosmic realities.
  • In the human system it is the personality which unifies all activities and in turn imparts the qualities of identity and creativity.
Survival and fusion are equally involved. One thing at a time . . . okay?

#8 collins

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 06:59 PM

Hi Nigel,
After watching your presentation, those aspects that were interesting and helped me understand the presentation are stated below;

That the Urantia Book is an attempt – to explain to finite minds a vast world of infinite creation.

Personality – Love illuminates a person.

Personality – Is an absolutely blank page bestowed upon body and mind.

That the soul represents – opportunity.
I put it like this - Our personality combines with his fragment within us to form a framework (thus the soul) that represents who we really are. It’s more like team work.

The individual parts are changeless but the combined being/framework is unique; and let’s say that the combination can be varied. Like a writer puts it “Change is the only constant in an ever changing world”

The Adjuster:

It is the indwelling Adjuster who individualizes the love of God to each human soul.

The indwelling adjuster weaves for us, a soul. The key is choice.


My understanding of the Thought Adjuster and the Soul has been improved by the posts so far and parts of your presentation.
Those parts that were boring to me and where i got lost were the definetions or quotes from the UB you used. In explaining misunderstandings about topics in the UB, I think using personal views or experiences is very helpful but I do understand why you included them because you needed to show the source of your views.
If there is anything that I would say you got it wrong, it will be this statement - "Personality – Is an absolutely blank page bestowed upon body and mind".
Blank page is almost like nothing! - like no person at all. Well, maybe you're not wrong!

Your presentation is good - very helpful - the more i play it, the more it simlify things to me.

Bonita,
Thanks for your posts so far. My understanding of The birth of Christ Michael,Thought Adjuster, Soul and to some extent - personality, has improved by this forum so far.

#9 Nigel Nunn

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:24 AM

Dear collins,

Thank you for having a look, and many thanks for your valuable comments!

Regarding that "blank page" ( tabula rasa ), since so much of the world's population believes in some flavour of reincarnation, I thought I'd try to expose similarities and differences: the eternal existence of the indwelling Adjuster should seem familiar to certain eastern orthodoxies; but rather than enduring a round of incarnations, the Urantia papers describe how this essence experiences a sequence of indwellings -- but only until success. Now combine this truth of the adjuster with the novelty of us baby persons... this is something new! By saying "absolutely blank page", I was hoping to imply an absolute opportunity to write an utterly new story -- very personal, and potentially eternal.

with thanks and appreciation,
Nigel

#10 Bonita

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 10:29 AM

By saying "absolutely blank page", I was hoping to imply an absolute opportunity to write an utterly new story -- very personal, and potentially eternal.


Although well intentioned, I'm afraid that presenting personality as an absolutely blank page can be misleading. Personality is simply a divine pattern, derived from the original personality, applied to an energy system. The energy system recognized as human carries with it a certain amount of inherited personality characteristics within the DNA. (76:2.6) Therefore, each person enters the world with a set of character traits as well as a certain pattern of personality. There is nothing at all blank or empty about it.

By your teaching, one might assume that personality is self-determined instead of, what I'm sure you meant, that the destiny of one's personality is self-determined. There is a huge difference between the two.

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 05:22 PM

. . . .
Regarding that "blank page" ( tabula rasa ), since so much of the world's population believes in some flavour of reincarnation, I thought I'd try to expose similarities and differences: the eternal existence of the indwelling Adjuster should seem familiar to certain eastern orthodoxies; but rather than enduring a round of incarnations, the Urantia papers describe how this essence experiences a sequence of indwellings -- but only until success. Now combine this truth of the adjuster with the novelty of us baby persons... this is something new! By saying "absolutely blank page", I was hoping to imply an absolute opportunity to write an utterly new story -- very personal, and potentially eternal. . . . .


Bonita: I don’t see the point in your response to Nigel’s response. He clearly defined his interpretation and the reference to “blank page” above, where he redirected for a more detailed explanation with (tabula rasa); did you not access this link? If you had, that reference indicated that “… epistemological theory that individuals are born without built-in mental content …”, and the link to “mental content” links to an overall subject of “mind”. I believe that Nigel’s response was more than adequate.

However, your response below questions your motive; although I see your point, which IMO do not share or can validate. The statement below, “as an absolutely blank page” would seem to be deemed mute from the explanation above.

Although well intentioned, I'm afraid that presenting personality as an absolutely blank page can be misleading. Personality is simply a divine pattern, derived from the original personality, applied to an energy system. The energy system recognized as human carries with it a certain amount of inherited personality characteristics within the DNA. (76:2.6) Therefore, each person enters the world with a set of character traits as well as a certain pattern of personality. There is nothing at all blank or empty about it.

By your teaching, one might assume that personality is self-determined instead of, what I'm sure you meant, that the destiny of one's personality is self-determined. There is a huge difference between the two.


The phrase “a certain amount of inherited personality characteristics within the DNA” you used above points directly to the term “germ plasm” found in the UB which was first used by the German biologist August Weismann (1834–1914) who studied this intensively but was not able to come to a definite conclusion because the technology of that day was not able to confirm the theory. With today’s technology, being able to see, via electron microscopes, it is more likely that “germ plasm” can be better defined through genetics in that inherent genealogy can be back-tracked to the Andonic genetic pattern. Until 1991 there was no term or conceivable definition in size comparison terms like Quadrillionth (0.000 000 000 000 000 000 000 001) to label genetic mathematical algorithms’ using a data checksum method to confirm these patterns will it become possible to isolate these recessive genes to not only cure many X factor medical issues but to prevent them from being passed on to the children of the future. Weismann’s theory, in essence, would indicate that the inherited personality and character traits can be isolated where every individual personality is unique and devoid of overlapping circles which is currently being provided by a thought adjuster.
Currently the length of time it would take for the thought adjuster process through identifying and isolating common inherent racial patterns is a laborious process and even though you don’t start out with a “blank page”, the page is there, just not visible to the individual until adjustments are made from within a creatures mind. It helps more when these creatures are more interested in identifying the personal self.
So you are correct in your amalgamation of UB knowledge on this subject but, not everyone can understand your mind-set when they attempt to explain their understanding of the UB.

#12 Julian McGarry

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 06:09 PM

Bonita.....your response ( The energy system recognized as human carries with it a certain amount of inherited personality characteristics within the DNA. (76:2.6) ) raised a long-standing question that I haven't been able to find a satisfactory answer to. As a psychologist I am interested in the concept or construct that we denote as 'personality' and I am aware that personality in this sense is encoded in the human genome and is passed on to successive generations. But is this synonymous with personality as it's defined in the UB or is it a subset of it. If not, is the unique, individual, and unchanging personality that our Father bestows upon us encoded in our DNA? If so, that would suggest that it is inheritable.

I'm sorry if I'm straying away from the subject. If this has been answered in previous threads, please direct me to them.

Julian

#13 Bonita

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 07:37 PM

Julian,

The keyword is characteristic. A lot of people confuse the word character with personality. We inherit personality characteristics from our mortal parents but we inherit our personalities from our spiritual Parent. I'd go into a long dissertation on this but I accidentally burned the fingertips of my right hand tonight and as a consequence have to type hunt-and-peck with the left hand. It's too much trouble, thankfully to some, I'm sure. Maybe things will improve tomorrow and I'll wax prophetic. :wacko:

#14 Bonita

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 11:24 AM

It was a rough night but looking on the bright side, my fingerprints will no longer be traceable, at least while the blisters remain; and since they are now numb, typing is easy. So now I can wax prophetic . . . sorry 'bout that. Did you read this quote?

76:2.6 The observation of Abel’s conduct establishes the value of environment and education as factors in character development. Abel had an ideal inheritance, and heredity lies at the bottom of all character; but the influence of an inferior environment virtually neutralized this magnificent inheritance. Abel, especially during his younger years, was greatly influenced by his unfavorable surroundings. He would have become an entirely different person had he lived to be twenty-five or thirty; his superb inheritance would then have shown itself. While a good environment cannot contribute much toward really overcoming the character handicaps of a base heredity, a bad environment can very effectively spoil an excellent inheritance, at least during the younger years of life. Good social environment and proper education are indispensable soil and atmosphere for getting the most out of a good inheritance.

It says that heredity lies at the bottom of all character. It does not say that heredity lies at the bottom of all personality, only the character of the personality. The quote goes on to say that one's hereditary character can be augmented or neutralized by environment. Likewise, one who is truly unfortunate and inherits an inferior character, cannot rely on environment to improve it. I suppose the next question would be, "What are the character handicaps of a base heredity?"

But before trying to answer that question, I'd like to point out elsewhere in TUB where inherited personality characteristics are discussed, the mortal character of Jesus.

122:5.3 Jesus derived much of his unusual gentleness and marvelous sympathetic understanding of human nature from his father; he inherited his gift as a great teacher and his tremendous capacity for righteous indignation from his mother. In emotional reactions to his adult-life environment, Jesus was at one time like his father, meditative and worshipful, sometimes characterized by apparent sadness; but more often he drove forward in the manner of his mother’s optimistic and determined disposition. All in all, Mary’s temperament tended to dominate the career of the divine Son as he grew up and swung into the momentous strides of his adult life. In some particulars Jesus was a blending of his parents’ traits; in other respects he exhibited the traits of one in contrast with those of the other.

In this quote it is stated that Jesus inherited his teaching gift from his father and his capacity for righteous indignation from his mother. It does not say that he learned these things from his parents, but that he inherited them. There are certain character propensities that we are born with, coded into our DNA.

Another aspect of character which is inherited is talent and ability. It is therefore not unusual to see a trend in careers and accomplishments within a given family tree.

44:8.2 There are three possible sources of special human ability: At the bottom always there exists the natural or inherent aptitude. Special ability is never an arbitrary gift of the Gods; there is always an ancestral foundation for every outstanding talent.

#15 Julian McGarry

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 05:05 PM

Thanks so much for that Bonita. What the UB describes as "character", most psychologists would call "personality" or temperament.....and of course this can cause confusion. So is it fair to say that a person's character is in no way a refection or product of their personality, given that their personality was a gift from their divine Father? I ask this question because of the phrase you used, "the characteristics of personality".

#16 Alina

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 05:49 PM

Hi all!

Julian; seems to me that we must first be clear what is the Personality.Differs from what is meant by personality in psychology and is not easy to reconcile very different concepts.
For psychology is a set of characteristics of each human being, for the UB is much more than that.
Some of the notable differences between the psychological concept and brings us Revelations are displayed,even partially,in the following points:




(1225.2) 112:0.2 While it would be presumptuous to attempt the definition of personality, it may prove helpful to recount some of the things which are known about personality:

(1225.3) 112:0.3 1. Personality is that quality in reality which is bestowed by the Universal Father himself or by the Conjoint Actor, acting for the Father.

(1225.4) 112:0.4 2. It may be bestowed upon any living energy system which includes mind or spirit.

(1225.5) 112:0.5 3. It is not wholly subject to the fetters of antecedent causation. It is relatively creative or cocreative.

(1225.6) 112:0.6 4. When bestowed upon evolutionary material creatures, it causes spirit to strive for the mastery of energy-matter through the mediation of mind.

(1225.7) 112:0.7 5. Personality, while devoid of identity, can unify the identity of any living energy system.

(1225.8) 112:0.8 6. It discloses only qualitative response to the personality circuit in contradistinction to the three energies which show both qualitative and quantitative response to gravity.

(1225.9) 112:0.9 7. Personality is changeless in the presence of change.

(1225.10) 112:0.10 8. It can make a gift to God — dedication of the free will to the doing of the will of God.

(1225.11) 112:0.11 9. It is characterized by morality — awareness of relativity of relationship with other persons. It discerns conduct levels and choosingly discriminates between them.

(1225.12) 112:0.12 10. Personality is unique, absolutely unique: It is unique in time and space; it is unique in eternity and on Paradise; it is unique when bestowed — there are no duplicates; it is unique during every moment of existence; it is unique in relation to God — he is no respecter of persons, but neither does he add them together, for they are nonaddable — they are associable but nontotalable.

(1226.1) 112:0.13 11. Personality responds directly to other-personality presence.

(1226.2) 112:0.14 12. It is one thing which can be added to spirit, thus illustrating the primacy of the Father in relation to the Son. (Mind does not have to be added to spirit.)

(1226.3) 112:0.15 13. Personality may survive mortal death with identity in the surviving soul. The Adjuster and the personality are changeless; the relationship between them (in the soul) is nothing but change, continuing evolution; and if this change (growth) ceased, the soul would cease.

(1226.4) 112:0.16 14. Personality is uniquely conscious of time, and this is something other than the time perception of mind or spirit.



Greetings;

Alina
***

#17 Bonita

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 07:38 PM

So is it fair to say that a person's character is in no way a refection or product of their personality, given that their personality was a gift from their divine Father?


Oh no, not at all; character and personality are interwoven. However, the character of the personality can change, and in fact, it must change. Jesus taught character growth, remember? (140:8.27) The character traits that we inherit are basically animal-origin urges that we cannot change, but we can change our attitude and emotional response towards them. I know this sounds like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, but it makes sense if you remember that we are dual origin beings. We have the ability to transcend our animal nature.

TUB informs us:

140:4.8 Remember: While inherited urges cannot be fundamentally modified, emotional responses to such urges can be changed; therefore the moral nature can be modified, character can be improved. In the strong character emotional responses are integrated and co-ordinated, and thus is produced a unified personality.

There's more to this in regards to the unifying ability of the personality due to its possession of free will, as well as the fact that personality is simply a pattern of identity, but one thing at a time. Am I making sense?

#18 Julian McGarry

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 05:55 AM

Yes indeed Bonita, you are making sense, and I truly thank you! It is nevertheless a very challenging task to conceptualise the "personality" as the free gift bestowed upon us by the Universal Father. I am certainly very interested in how the character and the personality are interwoven as you indicated. Even the excellent quote that you cited:

140:4.8 Remember: While inherited urges cannot be fundamentally modified, emotional responses to such urges can be changed; therefore the moral nature can be modified, character can be improved. In the strong character emotional responses are integrated and co-ordinated, and thus is produced a unified personality.

raises a question for me. The key phrase is: "and thus is produced a unified personality"; my understanding of personality is that it is changeless in the presence of constant change; if the integration and coordination of emotional responses leads to the production of a unified personality, does that not suggest that the personality can be less than unified and is therefore capable of undergoing change?

I hope I don't come across as nitpicking....just slightly confused.

Julian

#19 collins

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 08:16 AM

Oh no, not at all; character and personality are interwoven. However, the character of the personality can change, and in fact, it must change. Jesus taught character growth, remember? (140:8.27) The character traits that we inherit are basically animal-origin urges that we cannot change, but we can change our attitude and emotional response towards them. I know this sounds like I'm talking out of both sides of my mouth, but it makes sense if you remember that we are dual origin beings. We have the ability to transcend our animal nature.

TUB informs us:

140:4.8 Remember: While inherited urges cannot be fundamentally modified, emotional responses to such urges can be changed; therefore the moral nature can be modified, character can be improved. In the strong character emotional responses are integrated and co-ordinated, and thus is produced a unified personality.

There's more to this in regards to the unifying ability of the personality due to its possession of free will, as well as the fact that personality is simply a pattern of identity, but one thing at a time. Am I making sense?


Not yet Bonita, Not Yet :rolleyes:
The question on personality is interesting to me and most people, i believe. In the UB it says; that is the aspect of our whole being that may survive mortal death. In essence, it represents Who We Really Are - Who We're Forever Going To Be - whether in this world, in the after-life, or even in other creations or spheres in the Fathers plans for us. It sure is something that needs attention & understanding.
One thing bringing the confusion here is the use of language - the english language to explain this phenomena. i believe at this point, in the discussion so far, what is of concern to me and perhaps others, can be put like this -
Why cant I change my Personality (Who I really Am)!
Again, anyone can use language to explain personality the best way he/she can but the whole essence of it is that - It really represents Who We Are. How people see us. Yes I inherited character traits from parents, ancestors, etc but what defines who I am now - what people see now - Has Got To Do With Everything I Exhibit Now.
Its a matter of choice - We are free will creatures. If we cant choice who we really want to be - then what is this "Free Will" all about.

Note: "While the inherited urges cannot be fundamentally modified, emotional responses to such urges can be changed" Its the urges that cannot be modified. "The fact that you have urges about something, doesn't mean you're going to Do It."
I believe - My Personality is not my inhereted urges - My Personality cannot be traits from my parents or progenitors. Yes, these things contributes to what I become, but they're not the real me.
Change, Progress - these are the necessities for survival in our entire life career.

Like you put it yourself - "Personality is simply a pattern of identity". Sure! That's more like it. :) Pattern! it can be composed of different materials but its really what you see or how you look at it. And yes! those same components can be modified/changed to form a different, new pattern.

Now Nigel's assertion - "Personality is an absolutely blank page bestowed upon body and mind" - makes sense to me. At least I can say that is true when we first enter this world - when we're conceived and eventually, born. You have a blank page to start with. Like you have a plain sheet of paper to write your own story upon. Some may have - a blue paper, a green paper, etc. Yes! And I was wrong to say " Blank Page is nothing - like no person at all" It is something - a blank paper to start with - and the good part is that - It comes in colors (the combinations of traits, inherited urges, and the so many things you can scientifically talk of) - at least it can be recognized in different colors. AND IF LATER ON YOU SO DECIDE BY THE CHOOSING OF MIND - YOU CAN PRINT OR WRITE WHATEVER STORY, IN WHATEVER COLOR ON IT - AND ANYONE WHO LOOKS AT IT, WILL SEE WHAT YOU MADE IT. :D

We can use Science and psychology to explain personality in detail as much as we can - and we may not be wrong. But if we are to come to a conclusion that - Personality Is in Essence, Who You Really Are - then I believe - WE SURE CAN MAKE CHANGES TO IT :ph34r:

#20 Bonita

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 08:27 AM

Yes indeed Bonita, you are making sense, and I truly thank you! It is nevertheless a very challenging task to conceptualise the "personality" as the free gift bestowed upon us by the Universal Father. I am certainly very interested in how the character and the personality are interwoven as you indicated. Even the excellent quote that you cited:

140:4.8 Remember: While inherited urges cannot be fundamentally modified, emotional responses to such urges can be changed; therefore the moral nature can be modified, character can be improved. In the strong character emotional responses are integrated and co-ordinated, and thus is produced a unified personality.

raises a question for me. The key phrase is: "and thus is produced a unified personality"; my understanding of personality is that it is changeless in the presence of constant change; if the integration and coordination of emotional responses leads to the production of a unified personality, does that not suggest that the personality can be less than unified and is therefore capable of undergoing change?

I hope I don't come across as nitpicking....just slightly confused.


No, not at all. It is indeed very confusing, which is why, I think, TUB invests so much ink in laying it all out for us. And I do mean laying out, in that there are so many layers and multidimensional components which go into making up a person. But what holds it all together is the personality, the outer skin, if you choose to think of it as such. Within the body of the personality there are many components that may function as a whole or may become unbalanced and disruptive. The personality is the sole owner of the all-powerful free will, and that alone gives it the ability to consolidate and integrate its parts in such a way as to enable it to function in a unified manner. There are other qualities of the personality which assist in this, but it would be much easier to stick to one thing at a time.

I am fortunate in that I am conscious of the fact that I am being instructed in my deep mind when I sleep. Although I am conscious of that fact, I rarely am conscious of the details of that instruction. It's like knowing you've been operated on when you wake up from surgery, but have no recollection of the particulars. Occasionally, I awake whilst in deep thought on a subject, a state in which new ideas are being exercised in my mind. It's odd, I admit, to open one's eyes and discover that you're already deep in thought on a subject and pondering all the ramifications of these new ideas.

Just such an occurrence happened this morning when I awoke very much involved in mulling over a character trait of my father's and how it dominated his life; a character trait I inherited from him and then passed on to my children. It occurred to me, after a little while, that this would be an excellent example of an inherited character trait, that once wholesomely integrated by personality became a dominating, positive influence in his life as well as in the lives of others. Wholesomely is a word I use because it indicates health-giving balance, morally sound motivations and virtuous intentions.

I struggle to describe this character trait, this inbred urge, but I think the words willful determination might suffice. Others might call it stubbornness, and indeed it is, if applied irrationally. And don't think that my father didn't occasionally succumb to stubbornness, he did, but most often this trait worked for the good. Once my father made up his mind on something, nothing stood in the way of his goal. Despite all obstacles, he would work tirelessly to find ways to accomplish it, bringing all of his human and superhuman faculties to bear. Now, this character trait, in an unscrupulous individual, could be a disaster and utterly destructive, but when applied in a wholesome manner, is quite positive and progressive. The difference lies in free-will choice, how such a character trait is utilized, what motivating principles and ideals lead it in its expression. And it is the personalty that is in charge of making those decisions.

Before I go on, I want to make sure that this makes sense. Let me know.




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