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Outisde Reading: Eugenics


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#21 Guest_rich_*

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Posted 13 June 2011 - 01:33 PM

(IMO) Nothing is given up :D, (IMO) everything is gained in choosing to do god's will because God is reality, therefor you are choosing to co-ordinate yourself with reality :D.


sure. there's some line in tub about if you're worthy ambitions will be met in eternity but it can take a long time.

44:8.4 Nevertheless, those things which you so earnestly longed to do on earth and which circumstances so persistently denied you, if, after acquiring true mota insight in the morontia career, you still desire to do, then will you most certainly be granted every opportunity fully to satisfy your long-cherished desires.

Edited by rich, 13 June 2011 - 01:38 PM.


#22 FTFSGRL

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 12:24 PM

(842.2) 75:3.9 Influenced by flattery, enthusiasm, and great personal persuasion, Eve then and there consented to embark upon the much-discussed enterprise, to add her own little scheme of world saving to the larger and more far-reaching divine plan. Before she quite realized what was transpiring, the fatal step had been taken. It was done.

(842.3) 75:4.1 The celestial life of the planet was astir. Adam recognized that something was wrong, and he asked Eve to come aside with him in the Garden. And now, for the first time, Adam heard the entire story of the long-nourished plan for accelerating world improvement by operating simultaneously in two directions: the prosecution of the divine plan concomitantly with the execution of the Serapatatia enterprise.

(842.4) 75:4.2 And as the Material Son and Daughter thus communed in the moonlit Garden, “the voice in the Garden” reproved them for disobedience. And that voice was none other than my own announcement to the Edenic pair that they had transgressed the Garden covenant; that they had disobeyed the instructions of the Melchizedeks; that they had defaulted in the execution of their oaths of trust to the sovereign of the universe.

(842.5) 75:4.3 Eve had consented to participate in the practice of good and evil. Good is the carrying out of the divine plans; sin is a deliberate transgression of the divine will; evil is the misadaptation of plans and the maladjustment of techniques resulting in universe disharmony and planetary confusion.

Eugenics was wrong then, what makes one think it is now okay?

#23 -Scott-

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 01:24 PM

Eugenics in 1930's = Well Birthed....


Current Eugenics = Hitler......

.....The book was written in the 1930's.

Edited by boomshuka, 14 June 2011 - 01:25 PM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#24 Guest_rich_*

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 03:29 PM

eugenics - the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics).

done right there's nothing wrong with this, even an attempt by people could be done better than too much population. man could probably do eugenics fairly decently, not perfectly, being imperfect, but i think society could do a pretty good job at it in this day and age.


Eugenics was wrong then, what makes one think it is now okay?



#25 FTFSGRL

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 04:56 PM

others imposing control over another....hmm...eliminates that person's free will and a magnitude of personal experiences....

#26 -Scott-

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Posted 14 June 2011 - 07:08 PM

I agree it suck's, but eventually with overpopulation someone is going to have to restrict the multiplication of people.....the way I look at it is one generation of people will have to suffer but it will mean that countless generation's to come will be able to live full live's without cancer without disease without sickness.....and than finally humans will be living long enough to fuse with their adjusters and there will be no more death :D.....the benifit's far outway the con's that one generation is going to have to go threw.

Of coarse the generation that has to make these change's will hardly see any immediate result's and there won't be much to be happy about :D, but etleast our grandchildren's children will live better lives.

If someone told me that my bad genetic's would cause my children to have cancer at a young age and die, there is no way I could morally have kids. We may be reaching a point soon where we can tell what will happen in term's of disease based on genetic's....

Edited by boomshuka, 14 June 2011 - 07:13 PM.

If one man craves freedom -- liberty -- he must remember that all other men long for the same freedom

#27 Guest_rich_*

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 11:30 AM

fine, the fact is it that is done in earlier times on normal worlds and it's an issue this world will have to work out one way or another in its attempt at light and life.

others imposing control over another....hmm...eliminates that person's free will and a magnitude of personal experiences....



#28 Rick Warren

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 02:04 PM

...others imposing control over another....hmm...eliminates that person's free will and a magnitude of personal experiences....


Isn't the price of general freewill a loss of a certain measure of individual freewill? If one lives with others, if one wants civilization, freewill has to be curtailed to some degree, no? The more complex and dense a civilization becomes the greater the volunteer abrogation of freewill must be. Look no farther for proof than Urantia's great city centers, eh.

Gotta go, Green Acres is on!

#29 Guest_rich_*

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 04:31 PM

there's not much that's really free about anyone's will, it's a word, free but it doesn't really mean much in terms of the will, everyone has a tremendous number of aspects to their lives that points to not having much free will. 16:8.5 Creature personality is distinguished by two self-manifesting and characteristic phenomena of mortal reactive behavior: self-consciousness and associated relative free will.

16:8.6 Self-consciousness consists in intellectual awareness of personality actuality; it includes the ability to recognize the reality of other personalities. It indicates capacity for individualized experience in and with cosmic realities, equivalating to the attainment of identity status in the personality relationships of the universe. Self-consciousness connotes recognition of the actuality of mind ministration and the realization of relative independence of creative and determinative free will.

16:8.7 The relative free will which characterizes the self-consciousness of human personality is involved in:
1. Moral decision, highest wisdom.
2. Spiritual choice, truth discernment.
3. Unselfish love, brotherhood service.
4. Purposeful co-operation, group loyalty.
5. Cosmic insight, the grasp of universe meanings.
6. Personality dedication, wholehearted devotion to doing the Father's will.
7. Worship, the sincere pursuit of divine values and the wholehearted love of the divine Value-Giver.

our will is so intertwined with others that calling it free is almost a misnomer.

#30 FTFSGRL

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 05:45 PM

I understand your points, don't get me wrong. Unfortunately I cannot respond without being ejected from the forum.
Unfortunately for this reason, I guess we'll agree to disagree at this point in time.

I think the one thing I can say is:

to re-quote... 16:8.6 Self-consciousness consists in intellectual awareness of personality actuality; it includes the ability to recognize the reality of other personalities.

I am very well aware of your personality realities through your agreement with TUB. You cannot say the same, that you can understand mine when none of you are willing to even try.
Take your time and think about that. Please.

#31 Guest_rich_*

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 08:49 PM

100:7.15 His courage was magnificent, but he was never foolhardy. His watchword was, “Fear not.” as far as "Unfortunately I cannot respond without being ejected from the forum." again fear not, don't worry about what people on a forum do, you do you.

I understand your points, don't get me wrong. Unfortunately I cannot respond without being ejected from the forum.
Unfortunately for this reason, I guess we'll agree to disagree at this point in time.

I think the one thing I can say is:

to re-quote... 16:8.6 Self-consciousness consists in intellectual awareness of personality actuality; it includes the ability to recognize the reality of other personalities.

I am very well aware of your personality realities through your agreement with TUB. You cannot say the same, that you can understand mine when none of you are willing to even try.
Take your time and think about that. Please.



#32 FTFSGRL

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 02:21 AM

laughs.... it is called wisdom and self-restraint. I am not fearful to post anything but I also know the "rules of the forum" and the consequences for doing such.... :)

#33 Guest_rich_*

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 09:19 AM

that's called service, tailoring your posts to fit the rules of the forum and the way the admininstrators like it. 130:6.4 This day, my son, you are to be reborn, re-established as a man of faith, courage, and devoted service to man, for God’s sake. And when you become so readjusted to life within yourself, you become likewise readjusted to the universe; you have been born again — born of the spirit — and henceforth will your whole life become one of victorious accomplishment. Trouble will invigorate you; disappointment will spur you on; difficulties will challenge you; and obstacles will stimulate you. Arise, young man! Say farewell to the life of cringing fear and fleeing cowardice. Hasten back to duty and live your life in the flesh as a son of God, a mortal dedicated to the ennobling service of man on earth and destined to the superb and eternal service of God in eternity.”

so for me, the gospel is the service of god and man and i take my past associations with the administrators into consideration all the time while i write on here as a service to them. i don't speak the way i would if i didn't have to take that into consideration. for me the only requirement to post should be are you a tub reader, then go ahead and post about anything you want. if what i say is not criminal and no one is going to call the police on me, then it shouldn't be deleted, but that's not how the administrators see it. fortunately i have my own unused forum that i can post to now and then when not being able to say things straight gets on my nerves too much. and if my forum ever does get used anything deleted would be tremendously less than other forums.

laughs.... it is called wisdom and self-restraint. I am not fearful to post anything but I also know the "rules of the forum" and the consequences for doing such.... :)



#34 Rick Warren

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Posted 17 June 2011 - 09:32 AM

that's called service, tailoring your posts to fit the rules of the forum and the way the admininstrators like it. 130:6.4 This day, my son, you are to be reborn, re-established as a man of faith, courage, and devoted service to man, for God’s sake. And when you become so readjusted to life within yourself, you become likewise readjusted to the universe; you have been born again — born of the spirit — and henceforth will your whole life become one of victorious accomplishment. Trouble will invigorate you; disappointment will spur you on; difficulties will challenge you; and obstacles will stimulate you. Arise, young man! Say farewell to the life of cringing fear and fleeing cowardice. Hasten back to duty and live your life in the flesh as a son of God, a mortal dedicated to the ennobling service of man on earth and destined to the superb and eternal service of God in eternity.”

so for me, the gospel is the service of god and man and i take my past associations with the administrators into consideration all the time while i write on here as a service to them. i don't speak the way i would if i didn't have to take that into consideration. for me the only requirement to post should be are you a tub reader, then go ahead and post about anything you want. if what i say is not criminal and no one is going to call the police on me, then it shouldn't be deleted, but that's not how the administrators see it. fortunately i have my own unused forum that i can post to now and then when not being able to say things straight gets on my nerves too much. and if my forum ever does get used anything deleted would be tremendously less than other forums.



Thanks much to you both. It's not always easy to show restraint and consideration for the Forum's whole readership. The Forum is here to serve, like rich, like us all. And the rules are designed to serve best our global family, they grow out of experience and our best wisdom.

#35 Guest_rich_*

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Posted 18 June 2011 - 02:39 PM

157:4.3 jesus relieved the tension by that friendly and fraternal smile which was so characteristic of him when his followers took themselves, or some happening related to themselves, too seriously.

i like to smile a lot.

#36 Bill Martin

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Posted 19 June 2011 - 12:17 PM

I understand your points, don't get me wrong. Unfortunately I cannot respond without being ejected from the forum.
Unfortunately for this reason, I guess we'll agree to disagree at this point in time.


Go ahead and try saying it FTFSGRL, although we monitor threads and even have discussions sometimes, a person's sincerity and motive has a great deal to do with our judgments.

I admire that you understand that the prerequisite to "light and life" is respect for others rights and a willingness to restrain your own self-assertion-this behavior is a service to your brothers and sisters and such activity builds the foundation for the Brotherhood of Man.
Slowly but surely the Power of Love is overcoming the Love of Power

#37 Guest_rich_*

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Posted 27 June 2011 - 04:40 PM

realizing of course that judging someone's sincerity is subjective.

#38 FTFSGRL

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 03:26 AM

"...I implore that you cease to apply the teaching of the kingdom of the spirit to the sordid affairs of slavery, poverty, houses, and lands, and to the material problems of human equity and justice. These temporal matters are the concern of the men of this world, and while in a way they affect all men, you have been called to represent me in the world, even as I represent my Father." pg 1605

"If Christianity persists in neglecting its spiritual mission while it continues to busy itself with social and material problems, the spiritual renaissance must await the coming of these new teachers of Jesus’ religion who will be exclusively devoted to the spiritual regeneration of men." pg 2082

How does a temporal social matter(eugenics) truly have anything to do with the kingdom of Heaven? By the quotes above..it doesn't.

"These writings are the work of men, some of the holy men, others not so holy. The teachings of these books represent the views and extent of enlightenment of the times in which they had their origin. As a revelation of truth, the last are more dependable than the first. The Scriptures are faulty and altogether human in origin, but mistake not, they do constitute the best collection of religious wisdom and spiritual truth to be found in all the world at this time." pg 1767

"The Scriptures contain much that is true but in the light of your present teaching, you know that these writings contain much that is misrepresentative of the Father in heaven..." pg 1768

"Never permit yourself for one moment to believe the Scripture records which tell you that the God of love directed your forefathers to go forth in battle to slay all their enemies - men, women and children. Such records are the words of men, not very holy men and they are not the word of God." pg 1768 (Eugenics would slay many many many people....)

#39 Guest_rich_*

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Posted 02 July 2011 - 10:23 PM

111:4.4 The inner and the outer worlds have a different set of values. Any civilization is in jeopardy when three quarters of its youth enter materialistic professions and devote themselves to the pursuit of the sensory activities of the outer world. Civilization is in danger when youth neglect to interest themselves in ethics, sociology, eugenics, philosophy, the fine arts, religion, and cosmology.

that's an interesting list, the others are easily good but understanding why eugenics is good, i can see how that can be a little tougher. but if it's just about not letting those with Mental retardation (is a generalized disorder appearing before adulthood, characterized by significantly impaired cognitive functioning and deficits in two or more adaptive behaviors. It has historically been defined as an Intelligence Quotient score under 70) breed it could be seen as loving the human race as a whole in terms of its development.

i have to go with what the melchizedeks recommend in tub about eugenics, and not stray from what they say into other ideas as to what could occur on an evolutionary sphere and there are many quotes in the book about this topic as talked about by the melchizedeks.

How does a temporal social matter(eugenics) truly have anything to do with the kingdom of Heaven? By the quotes above..it doesn't.

"These writings are the work of men, some of the holy men, others not so holy. The teachings of these books represent the views and extent of enlightenment of the times in which they had their origin. As a revelation of truth, the last are more dependable than the first. The Scriptures are faulty and altogether human in origin, but mistake not, they do constitute the best collection of religious wisdom and spiritual truth to be found in all the world at this time." pg 1767

"The Scriptures contain much that is true but in the light of your present teaching, you know that these writings contain much that is misrepresentative of the Father in heaven..." pg 1768

"Never permit yourself for one moment to believe the Scripture records which tell you that the God of love directed your forefathers to go forth in battle to slay all their enemies - men, women and children. Such records are the words of men, not very holy men and they are not the word of God." pg 1768 (Eugenics would slay many many many people....)



#40 rock

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Posted 04 July 2011 - 03:46 PM

I think eugenics is easy to understand and accept, the way Francis Galton defined it as the science which deals with all influences that improve the inborn qualities of a race; also with those that develop them to the utmost advantage.

You may think that some toughest methods of eugenics include forcing against someone's free will. You may think that it is suspicious. But think about this question: Would there be anything wrong if an adult human being, who was not suitable for the child's custody because of some incurable mental tendencies and characteristics, was sterilized against his/her free will? To be more clear I emphasize: Our jails are filled with such mentally problematic individuals. They were most certainly forced to move in jail, against their free will.




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